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Off day notes and stuff

The Reds are off today and there's not a lot happening that hasn't been reported on this site already, but in case you haven't heard: Ryan Freel is being shopped around, possibly for a catcher, and former Red Bob Purkey passed away.

In other news from the baseball world:

Longoria, Bruce, and Starting the Clock

AP Photo by Al Behrman
AP Photo by Al Behrman

The St. Petersburg Times has an article up arguing that the smart move might be to keep Evan Longoria in the minors for a couple of months.

There are lots of rules, procedures and technicalities involved, but reducing it to the most basic of truths:

If Longoria is on the roster on March 31, he will probably be eligible for free agency after 2013. If he is in the minors until late April, he won't be a free agent until after 2014.

That means the Rays could either keep Longoria for a month in 2008 when he is just beginning his career and the team is not a contender, or they could hold on to him for an entire season in 2014 when he will be in his prime and the team might just be in better shape to contend.

This is a similar case as to what the Reds are facing with Jay Bruce, though Longoria might be a tad more prepared for the Majors, offensively at least.  And while I think a winning season would benefit the Rays more than the Reds, though the Reds have a better shot at the playoffs, I'm pretty much split 50-50 on this subject.  

To me, it's all about timing and maximizing the value of your young players.  Ideally you want to give yourself the biggest window for success without having to break the bank, if possible.  But then again, does it make sense to start the clocks on Votto and Cueto but not Bruce?  Or maybe, it makes more financial sense to taper their introductions so your team isn't gutted by free agency all at once.  Either way, decisions like this are why Wayne Krivsky gets paid the big bucks, and it's definitely not as cut-and-dry as any of us would like it to be.

Some Stuff About Pitching

  • David Pinto evaluates the Reds starting rotation with Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Fogg, and Cueto.  Using the Marcel projection system, he puts the 5 pitchers at a combined 4.45 ERA, which would be a drop of 0.41 from last year.  Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), there is still about 145 innings to be accounted for.  So, I guess it depends on how well those replacements pitch if there is really going to be an improvement.
  • Baseball Analysts did some work categorizing pitchers by ground ball and strikeout rates, first with starters and then with relievers.  It's an interesting, though somewhat basic way to look at pitchers and you kind of get a good idea of how important these two things are based on where certain names fall on the graphs.  I'm sure if Lederer could do a third dimension he would add in walk-rate, but until we're all using hologram computers, a graph like that might be hard to decipher.
  • I stumbled upon this yesterday.  I'm not sure there's any real science behind it (Greg Maddux threw over 3500 pitches in 1991-1993), but it might be something to keep an eye on with both Harang and Arroyo in the upcoming season.
  • I saw this via Harball Times.  Chris O'leary, a guy who likes to talk pitching mechanics, breaks down as best he can in short blurbs things he sees for 20 of the best young pitchers.  Here's what he says about Homer:
He does seem to stride quite closed, which makes me nervous. I sure hope he gets his glove up and protects himself in the case of a come-backer. Something about this photo makes me wonder if he tips his pitches.

        Anyone want to venture a guess as to why he thinks Homer is tipping pitches?

Finally, some quick hits:

  • A new Reds blog, Seeing Red combines a little mix of both scouting and statheading.  Here's a breakdown of Johnny Cueto's last start.
  • Justin posted links to articles at Friar Forecast with the Padres Stathead in charge of Statiness.  I don't want to steal his traffic so go there first.  And wish him a happy 2nd blogday.  Pretty soon he'll be potty trained.
  • For you tree hugging hippies, both the Nats and the Pirates are trying to go greener at their home parks this year.  But then again, President Bush will be throwing  out the first pitch at Nationals Park, so you know they must be clubbing baby seals in the back rooms or something.

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Around the majors
The Red Sox are threatening to boycott their season opening trip to Japan unless MLB pays their coaches a $40,000 dollar bonus. All the players will be receiving the bonus and the Sox insist coaches were included in the negotiations, but that MLB is now trying to reneg. Some of the coaches make less than 40k a year so this is a lot of halibut.

by Red Menace on Mar 19, 2008 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

d'oh
I meant to post that, but my firefox tabs only go so wide.  There it is, sitting on the other side of the fold.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 19, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bailey
Has tipped his pitches in the past, although mostly it has been with his change up and it has been from the arm speed. My only guess is that his follow through with his glove arm could be saying 'fastball'. Obviously you can see he was throwing the fastball by checking out his throwing arm and his fingers, but in real time that would never work, a hitter couldn't react quick enough to use something like that as a pitch.
www.redsminorleagues.com

by dougdirt on Mar 19, 2008 1:46 PM EDT reply actions  

I dunno
I know that not everyone can spend money like a drunken Steinbrenner, but I think the type of thinking in that Longoria article is why the Rays will always be the Rays.

The only consideration, in my mind, is whether Longoria needs the seasoning.  I'm on record thinking that might be the case with Bruce; you'll also see that I think the money should have zero impact on the decision.

The Rays aren't going to the playoffs this year, so the arguement that it's OK to not start Longoria's clock makes some small bit of sense.  But as long as they let their pocketbooks make their decisions, they'll never compete.  The Rays have finished higher than last once in franchise history (when they finished 4th with a record 70 wins).  Their payroll history?

'98 - $48M, 11th in MLB
'99 - $48, 14th
'00 - $64M, 10th
'01 - $76, 10th
then the purge...
'02 - $34, last by $4M
'03 - $19, half of 2nd to last KC & Milwaukee
'04 - $29, 2nd to last
'05 - $29, last by $7M
'06 - $35, 2nd to last
'07 - $24, last by $6M

I know money isn't everything - look at Oakland and Minnesota, for example.  But it's pretty easy to see why Hank Steinbrenner is pissed about teams taking his money and not even trying to compete.

Oh, and the Sox have "resolved thier dispute" about paying the coaches in Japan.

Oh, and Tyrell Pryor is a Buckeye!

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 19, 2008 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Dusty continues to top himself.
"I miss my dog (Bailey). She is the best woman in my life, and that's no slight on my mom, my wife and my daughter. My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." -- Dusty Baker on his loyal 11-year-old German short-haired pointer.

MY WIFE AIN'T NEVER RAN AND GOT ME NO PHEASANT EITHER

by Geki on Mar 19, 2008 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

It's the "Dodger Way"
see Garvey, Lasorda,...
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 19, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does this bug anyone else?
All this reference to the "Dodger Way?"  I realize that's his background, but don't we have something of a longstanding feud with the Dodgers?  Aren't they on the short list of Especially Hated Teams?  Maybe that's in the past, but it still kind of rubs me the wrong way.  You're not a Dodger anymore, Dusty.  If you want to call something the "Dusty Way," that's fine.  You've had success as a manager, been to a bunch of playoffs and even the World Series.  But holding up the Dodgers as an example of team success that should be emulated?  I'm not buying it.  Screw the Dodgers!

by Brendanukkah on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially that era.
When they were the hated Dodgers. That was a little before my time as a Reds Fan, but I am sure there are a couple on here that still hold over that dislike today..
"Sometimes, you get so caught up in on-base percentage that you're clogging up the bases." - our very own D. Baker - Oh my..

by snohio on Mar 19, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm one!
Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Mar 19, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I lived in LA...
during that period.  Garvey, Cey, eventually Pedro Guerrero, and of course Fat Tommy himself.  If I have to listen to Vin Scully and Farmer John get nostalgic for the "Boys in Blue" ever again....

The Dodgers are on the very short list of Most Hated Teams.

On top of that, Dusty managed the Giants for quite a while.  Don't know if you guys out there in the East have noticed, but the Bay Area doesn't really think much of the Dodgers.

Once a Dodger, always a Dodger, we always say (cough Piazza cough)  Some people (Jeff Kent) were Dodgers even before they were Dodgers.

Even after all this time, Dusty's still a Dodger.  

by bbjones on Mar 19, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget the Penguin
Ron 'Dumber than a board" Cey
The most important fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit. Milton Friedman

by Madville on Mar 19, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

"I don't want to steal his traffic"
Oh, sheesh.  I know I just posted about how I like traffic, but there's no reason to make people go through extra clicks to get what they want! :)

For the click-frugal, here are the two interview articles:
http://friarforecast.com/?p=326
http://friarforecast.com/?p=360

MB also did a nice piece looking at known sabr-types around baseball:
http://friarforecast.com/?p=366
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 19, 2008 4:29 PM EDT reply actions  

1/3 of the probable starting day line-up
Corey Patterson: 258/298/414, OPS+ 83

Juan Castro: 231/269/336, OPS+ 57

Paul Bako: 233/306/315, OPS+ 62

"Due up in the bottom half of the inning, Castro, Bako, Harang, followed by Patterson and the top of the order..."

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 19, 2008 4:39 PM EDT reply actions  

You wish
More like, "Due up in the bottom half of the inning, Bako, Harang, and Patterson with Castro batting if anybody gets on."
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 19, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is crazy frightening
but why would castro start over keppinger?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 19, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

just a hunch
I hope I'm wrong, for Harang's sake if for no one else's.
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 19, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i will make a bold claim
i dont even think dusty is that stoopid
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 19, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

wanna make it interesting?
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 19, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes
material, cash, beer-related or cyber-incentives?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 19, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

you name it.
take some time to think about it
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 19, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn it
If freakin' Juan Castro starts, I'm going to be catatonically depressed.  Not only did I pick Keppinger in Slyde's Keeper draft, but Castro is such a damn waste of space.  I don't get it, does Dusty hate Kepp because he gets on base and Castro gets on base 4 times a year???
Which celebrity are you often confused with? "Brad Pitt"- Adam Dunn

by chesirecat on Mar 20, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

reds trade salmon
from rob butcher:

The Reds today traded to the Kansas City Royals RHP Brad Salmon in exchange for a player to be named later or cash.

That's the whole e-mail. I hope we get Trey Hillman.

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 19, 2008 5:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Seems odd
I remember being fairly high on Salmon.  Might we have traded him for one of KC's recent draft picks, and that's why the player has to be named later?  And if so, does KC have any recent draftees that we should be excited about?

by Brendanukkah on Mar 19, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

here are...
...the Royals '07 draft picks.
  Couple of catchers in there, and other guys that play other positions.
Red Reporter- Because every Reds fan needs a place to overreact.

by jacob brumfield on Mar 19, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe the PTBNL
is the same guy we got for LaRue...

(I may be wrong on this, but I searched for a long time, and could never figure out that we got that player)

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 19, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe its just jason larue
bird, bird, stone
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 19, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

As of 15 months ago . . .
Slyde didn't know

http://www.redreporter.com/story/2006/12/29/14115/446

Slyde?  Slyde?  

Here's a funny link from the Google search:

http://www.nyyankeefans.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t15447.html

we know the reds can hit.... kinda......but aside from bronson......can they pitch?

Nice, Yankee fan.  Question for you:  Can you name any Red who didn't play for the Yanks or Sawx?

by Brian B on Mar 19, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

They can probably name...
...Griffey.

And maybe Homer Bailey, because he's so often compared to Phil Phenom.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 19, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dusty on Johnny Cueto:
"[I like] his quiet demeanor and confidence. The guy has another gear. I don't see him as a quality-start, 6 1/3-inning, three-run guy. That's a formula to get paid but not a formula to win. Every time he gives up a run, he doesn't like it. Every time he gives up a hit, he doesn't like it. That's a formula to win." -- Reds manager Dusty Baker, on pitching prospect and non-roster invitee Johnny Cueto, who is poised to earn a rotation spot with the big league club

here's the link:  http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080319&content_id=2444463&vkey=spt2008 news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

so is he saying he wants Johnny to pitch 330 innings?  becaaauuse, i dont think its a good idea...

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 19, 2008 5:41 PM EDT reply actions  

nah
he will probably only throw 315 innings, and that will be alright.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 19, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cy young blah blah blah
400 innings blah blah blah.

Wow, even in the laziest of mockery, I find that distasteful to say.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 19, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jayson Stark article on the Reds and Cordero
Nice little article about Francisco Cordero that pretty much puts Jayson Stark on the fence.  But I thought this was funny by Sweaterpants:

Checked out his home/road splits lately? Uh, here goes:

Cordero in Milwaukee last season: 1.09 ERA, .143 opponent batting average.

Cordero in towns not named Milwaukee last season: 6.55 ERA, .337 opponent batting average.

"Everyone else looks at that way more than I do," Krivsky said. "I was aware of it. And it certainly stood out. But there wasn't a history of it. The two years prior to that, his road numbers were better than his home stats. So I looked at it as some kind of aberration."

Uh, yeah, because two years ago home was the AL's version of GABP.

Anyone else a little worried?  Does Cordero have anything to pitch for now that he's locked up for the next four years?

by Brian B on Mar 19, 2008 11:11 PM EDT reply actions  

mlbtr names belisle
in a post about the marlins looking for a starting pitcher, mlbtr listed matt belisle among 15 or so less-than-ideal choices for trades to fill out the marlins' rotation.

their catchers suck, but I do see two former Reds that I like: Cody Ross and Jorge Cantu. Ross kicked some ass in 66 games (looks like he had some sort of injury that kept him out May and June) with the Marlins last year, throwing up a bingo 1.064 OPS. He's got a career 114 OPS, and he homered in the only game I ever saw him in, so he must be good. For reals, though, florida has cameron maybin coming up, so I would think Ross would be expendable (and a much better option in center than corey patterson). Cantu's platoon possibilities are obvious.

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 20, 2008 4:00 AM EDT reply actions  

no way on earth
wayner doesnt strike me as a guy who would second guess himself.  C. Ross and Cantu are gone and they aint never comin' back.  i mean, majewski still owns a reds hat.  although im intrigued by the idea, i know it will never happen.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 20, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Matt Belisle
If the Reds are going to trade Belisle to the Marlins, they should get Josh Willingham back.  Then they can trade Dunn for whatever.

When Dunn's Offense and Defense are combined (see Bill DeWan and the Fielding Bible), he is no better than an average Left Fielder.  When you take all 16 NL teams and combine what their Left Fielders did Offensively and then divide by 16, Josh Willingham is the closest to average.  

In both 2006 and 2007,  Willingham hit over .260 with over 20 Home Runs and over 80 RBI's in each season while playing half his Ganmes in a Pitcher's park.  Put him in GASP and those numbers would go up.  He is also a Right Handed batter, something the Reds need and made only $385,000 in 2007.

So, with Dunn and KGJ off the books for 2009, the Reds would have over $22 million free to sign C. C. Sabathia.  Since MOST people think Pitching has been the problem (and not the Offense that can't score on the Road or against Left Handed Pitching or the below average Outfield Defense) then who would you rather have, Dunn and KGJ or Sabathia and Bruce??

by ctownboy on Mar 20, 2008 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

i don't understand your equation
Dunn and KGJ or Sabathia and Bruce??
Bruce is going to be on the team next year regardless of what happens to money spent on free agents.  

I think one alternative that no one really discusses is exploring Arroyo's trade value.  He salary jumps to $10 million/year next year.  Use that savings and KGJ's savings to go after Sabathia to pitch 1/2 with Harang.  

2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on Mar 20, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunn and herpes.....??
or Cueto and Nick Markakis? It's a simple CHOICE.

by Red Menace on Mar 20, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you saying
that if we get rid of Dunn, I'll get rid of my herpes?  Someone get me Krivsky's cell phone number, STAT!
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 20, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

how did you get herpes in your basement?
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 20, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have Amazon Prime
so shipping is free.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 20, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

and I am still waiting for my Kindle
Red Reporter- Because every Reds fan needs a place to overreact.

by jacob brumfield on Mar 20, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Harang will also get a jump in pay next year
so the KGJ contract will make room for Harang and Arroyo.  

Lets trade Dunn for sphyillis.

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 20, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

yikes
I can't tell if you are serious or not.  Do you think that pitching is the problem?

The more I hear the "burdensome" contract theory, the more I wonder if the Reds should just buy up 5 $20 million/year superstars for one year only just so they'll have all that money available the next year once they're "off the books."

by Brian B on Mar 20, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

freel
You would think that the sitting Reds gm would have contacted the Dodgers by now about a trade for Freel. But who knows if that has even occurred to sweaterpants.

by Brian B on Mar 20, 2008 2:06 PM EDT reply actions  

wow
ctownboy and STDs all in the same thread.  throw in some kitty pics and i'll need a cigarette.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 20, 2008 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

crofler's got a pack
I'm a man of genius. I can afford to drool on you.

by Man Mountain on Mar 20, 2008 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

help wanted?
Bush is throwing out the first pitch as an audition for a new job, as he heard that "60" is the new "40".  And, with Baker/Krivsky's affinity for old arms, he might actually have a shot with the Reds. Or, do the Rangers still own his rights?
Big Red Latrine ... Reds news that flunks the smell test

by bigredlatrine on Mar 25, 2008 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

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