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Shifting Market Value and Trade Expectations

Something unusual has been happening in baseball as of late and it is very relevant for us over the next month. In fact, I think it portends badly for our chances of rebuilding via firesale.

There has been a subtle, but substantial shift in the way the market values players. In short, baseball organizations are beginning to value their top prospects like never before. Baseball writers mention it from time to time, but I think the shift has really become evident this year.

I read a chat with ESPN's Jerry Crasnick last week in which he suggested the reason for the shift was that fans had become more knowledgeable about the prospects in their organization, so GMs would come under fire if they were dealt. He cited Clay Bucholz of the BoSox as an example. Personally, I don't think that's the reason.

In years past, top prospects were often dealt for half season rentals. The best example that comes to mind is the Tigers trading John Smoltz to the Braves for Doyle Alexander. That trade worked out about as well as any half season rental can, as Doyle went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA for the Tigers and helped them reach the postseason in 1987.

However, those deals have become increasingly rare, as the opportunity cost of dealing blue chip prospects is higher than ever before. The cost of giving up the production of blue chip prospects has begun to heavily outweigh the benefits. If you are dealing away inexpensive prospects, then you likely have to find replacement production via free agency or trade. No matter where the replacement production comes from, it's going to more expensive than the prospect that was dealt away, because prospects are the only inexpensive production available in the market. Not to mention, the cost of replacement production for the prospects that are dealt away is skyrocketing.

The average MLB salary in 1988 was $453,020 and players in their first 3 years of service time earned ~$85,000-150,000 and the top veteran pitchers were earning ~$1.75-2.0M. In 2006, the average MLB salary was $2,834,521 and players in their first 3 years of service time were earning $330-550K and veteran pitchers were making ~$10M in free agency.

Over the years, salaries have increased on average about 10% per year. The difference is that a 10% increase in $350,000 salaries is much less in real dollars than a corresponding 10% increase in the cost of free agents. Accordingly, the disparity between the cost of veteran free agents and the cost of prospects has grown by leaps and bounds.

If you deal away a young prospect, you are throwing away three years of VERY inexpensive production and three years after that of below market production. Instead of getting good production over the next three years for ~$350-500K, you have to replace that production with expensive free agents at a cost of $10M. It costs you $9.5M more per season for the next three seasons ($28.5M over three years) in order to acquire a half season rental. In the past, you could find replacement production at a much lower cost, likely ~$2M in 1988.

So, in 1988, the Tigers could replace top prospect John Smoltz for ~$1.75M. In 2006, that same type of move would cost ~$10M. Personally, I think that it is this cost increase that has led to organization valuing their prospects MUCH more highly. They are just very reluctant to deal these types of prospects.

Inflation certainly plays a part, but prospects are just a much more valuable commodity than in years past. The salary for first year players has risen 3.5 times (from ~$100K to ~$350K), but the cost of free agent pitchers has increased 5-6-7 times (from ~$2M to ~$10-12-14M).

By trading away top notch prospects, you are incurring a huge opportunity cost, because you can no longer take advantage of 6 years of bargain priced production. Dealing away top prospects for half season rentals is becoming impracticable because the cost of replacing the future production of that prospect is exponentially higher than in seasons past. The market has begun to factor in these increasing costs and the valuation of top flight prospects has changed accordingly.

Unfortunately, that bodes poorly for us, as we are unlikely to reap a huge return for Adam Dunn. The cost of replacement production just doesn't make it feasible to rent high priced veteran players anymore.

This trend seems likely to continue until the salaries at the beginning of a player's career begins to increase. Until then, dealing away top prospects is a risky proposition.

The disturbing part of this is that I'm not sure that Krivsky has realized this market shift in prospect valuation.

The idea that Krivsky is asking for such a massive package of talent in return for Adam Dunn makes me wonder. The market is not going to yield that kind of talent for an expensive veteran and setting such a high asking price is serving no purpose but to scare off potential trade partners. If we can get one elite prospect for Dunn, then I think we should be very happy with that.

At this point, I think the Reds should be willing to pay the market rate or perhaps even overpay to get certain targeted players (i.e. Matt Kemp, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, etc). It's time to recognize the market shift and cut a deal with the realization that they can still be beneficial under the new market paradigm.

My $.02.

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Excellent first post!
Welcome...
"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 14, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It pretty much comes down to
whether we can get more in return via trade than through the draft if we let him walk.

by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 12:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Draft pick compensation
Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's that simple.

How can we decline the option year and then turn around and offer him arbitration?

Dunn gave us a team option under the condition that it was voidable if he was traded because he wanted to stay in Cincy. If he wasn't going to be in Cincy, then he wanted to control where he ended up.

Given his past comments, one would think he'd be interested in playing in the state of Texas, but Houston is not likely to be interested, as they locked up Carlos Lee who is similar in production and cost to Dunn.

So, unless the Rangers make a big play for Dunn in the offseason, he could conceivably accept arbitration. Cincy might be the most attractive option for him in 2008. If he does accept arbitration, then he could end up getting MORE in arbitration than he would've gotten had we exercised the team option. The huge contracts given out to Carlos Lee, Alfonso Soriano, etc could drive up the arbitration award of Adam Dunn.

Not only would we not get draft picks, but we might actually have to pay more to keep Dunn in 2008.

At this point, I think the only viable options are to trade Dunn before the deadline or to bring him back for 2008.

by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunner
I don't think there's any way that he'd accept arbitration.  The guy will make a killing as a FA.  If he was so intent on playing in Texas, he wouldn't have signed his deal w/ the Reds.

As to whether they can offer him arbitration at the end of the season, I don't know.  I was referring to next offseason, though I'm not sure how you were supposed to know that, because I didn't say it ;).

by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In order to get draft picks
you have to offer him arbitration according to the CBA
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Jul 15, 2007 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You must be
Wayne Krivsky.  Why we're at it, why is Chad Moeller on the roster (25 or 40 man)? Please trade Jeff Conine, Scott Hatteberg, David Weathers, and Mike Stanton for anything you can get. I'm sorry that because of your trade last year that everybody wants to take advantage of you again this year, therefore you cannot make any deals because everyone still thinks that they can make a mockery of you.  

As a Buckeye alumni and fan I have been totally spoiled with victories from them and consantly being a competitor for national contention. Please make the Reds a winner again so we can party like 1990.

by buckeye22fox on Jul 15, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

arb
I don't think the Soriano and Lee contracts would affect his arbitration. As I understand it only other arbitration cases are considered, not free agent deals.
It's not the negativity. It's the misdirected negativity.

by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be different in Dunn's case
because next season he would have been a free agent, so he would be compared to what similar players got on the open market.  So, I think the Lee and Soriano contracts would likely drive up his arb value.

Frankly, the Reds would be foolish to offer arbitration to a player that already gave them control of an option, if it's even within the rules.  If they offer him arbitration, he'll probably make more than the $13M (assuming he doesn't get to the escalation levels) that they've got him for already.  And if he wants to stay with the Reds, then they'd be on the hook for it even if they didn't really want him.

chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arbitration
I would agree. I don't think it's the best strategy to decline the option then offer arbitration. I know you can technically do it, but I think there is a big risk that Dunn would accept and we'd be on the hook for more than the cost of the option.

Also, does arbitration really only take into account other arbitration awards? That's interesting if that's the way it's done. I would have thought that the arbitrator would consider free agent deals as well. Anyone know for sure?

Thanks.

by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arb comps
Generally, arbitration decisions are based on arbitration comps - other decisions about similarly skilled players who entered arbitration with about the same service time.  This is part of the CBA ("The arbitration panel shall, except for a Player with five or more years of Major League service, give particular attention, for comparative salary purposes, to the contracts of Players with Major League service not exceeding one annual service group above the Player's annual service group.").  

It's more difficult to find arb comps for elite players or players with 5 or 6 years of service time.  In those cases, the arbitrator may look at contracts (rather than just arb decisions).  For players with more than six years of service, there are so few arb comps that other free agency deals determine what the player will be awarded.  The Greg Maddux arbitration from a few years ago comes to mind.  

I agree with you that arbitration would be much riskier than exercising the $13mm option.  

by ken on Jul 15, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post
Welcome.

I would also add that the luxury tax adds to the cost of those high salaries, making even the teams who can afford them think twice.  

It also seems like the free agent/trade market has become a lot tighter in recent years, at least for certain types of players.  Even teams with deep pockets are having trouble finding good starting pitchers and decent catchers, for example.

But I don't think Krivsky really expects to get what he's asking for Dunn.  Either he's not serious about wanting to trade him, or it's just the opening move of the negotiating process.

FWIW, I'm hearing that it's really Griffey they're trying to trade, not Dunn.

(Trent says the marketing department doesn't want to trade Griffey, but ownership doesn't care either way.)

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jul 15, 2007 7:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts
Good point. The Luxury Tax is another reason why the big market teams would favor inexpensive talent over high priced veterans.

I still don't know what to make of Krivsky's demands for Dunn. If he expects to get it, then I don't think he's got a good grasp of the market. If he doesn't expect to get those demands, then I'm not sure why he would make them in the first place. Why scare off teams who could potentially make a good offer?

by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a problem
Trent says the marketing department doesn't want to trade Griffey, but ownership doesn't care either way.

If the marketing department is calling the shots on personnel moves, you have deep, deep organizational problems.

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Jul 15, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think they should have a say
they know, after all, who's going to generate revenue
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Jul 15, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a very interesting post.
One could only hope that Krivsky is aware of what Krasnick has to say about 1/2 season rentals for top prospects. Rebuilding via a firesale is also a bad idea because this team is only a couple of players and a strong manager shy of competing -  Keep the core, trade the Vets - Hatte,  Connine, Stanton, DFA the neverweres - Castro, Moeller, DeWayne - Bring up some of these top prospects - Votto, Keppinger, and prepare them for 2008.

Very enlightening post - thanks for the info and the perspective.

Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 8:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice post
The next two weeks will certainly be interesting in Redland as we see what the Wayner has in mind
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Jul 15, 2007 9:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Elegant exposition
and it almost seems like it should be intuitive. Personally, I enjoy following the drafting and development of players much more than watching the free agent market unfold. And I won't be upset if the Reds get the top pick in next year's draft if they're not contending anyway.

by pw on Jul 15, 2007 9:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good post
but I disagree with this paragraph:

The idea that Krivsky is asking for such a massive package of talent in return for Adam Dunn makes me wonder. The market is not going to yield that kind of talent for an expensive veteran and setting such a high asking price is serving no purpose but to scare off potential trade partners. If we can get one elite prospect for Dunn, then I think we should be very happy with that.

The Reds are not in a position where they have to trade Dunn.  They have him under contract for next season, so they aren't at risk of losing him.  This is the exact reason why they shouldn't settle for anything.  It's looking right now like there aren't a lot of big bats available, so that means that Krivsky can control the market.  If other teams don't want to pay his price then they can try to find someone that produces like Dunn somewhere else.  And the worst case scenario for the Reds is that Adam Dunn is their left fielder next season.  Then they have the option of trading him in July or taking the compensation pick if he walks as a free agent.

chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 10:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Reponse to Slyde
I agree that the Reds don't have to trade Dunn, but I was just saying that if they do want to move Dunn, then 1 elite prospect is about the best we could hope for.

Also, from my understanding of it, if we exercise the option on Dunn, then he gets a full no trade clause. So, if we want to deal him, then it's now or never. I don't think a trade in 2008 is an option.

Maybe he could waive his no trade clause to enable us to trade him in 2008, but I'm not sure why he would do so.

by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No trade clause
He has a full no trade clause until June 15th, after which he has to select 10 teams that he's willing to accept a trade to.  It makes it harder to trade him, but then again maybe they can try to make some moves to improve the team without trading Dunn.  Then who knows, maybe they'll be buyers next summer?
chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Interesting, I thought he had a full no trade clause for 2008. Obviously, he doesn't have as much no trade protection as I thought.

by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this was somewhat new info that came to light
"You're not privvy to the new shit, man!"
It's not the negativity. It's the misdirected negativity.

by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What in God's holy name are you blathering about?
Dunn's option/no-trade: if the option is exercised, he receives a complete a no-trade clause until June 15, 2008 (after that date he can select 19 teams to which he cannot be traded to w/out his consent)

by ken on Jul 15, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with trading Adam Dunn...
Is that the Reds have been willing to part with him for two years now.  From all accounts, there is no real market for him.

The Reds organization doesn't want him, and it doesn't seem there are many other teams around the league that want him either.

The fact is, if he were a player other teams were just dying to get, he would have been traded a long time ago.

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 10:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah, two years.
That's why they gave him an extension a year and a half ago with an option that severely limits his trade value. That's what most teams do when they really want to get rid of a guy.

by Geki on Jul 15, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are we having a game thread today?
"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 1:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Did you get all of the laundry done?
Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I did...
And all it earned me was indifference!

Not fair!

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Training rule #17:
17. The wife (Chandra) says" Why should you be praised for just doing a simple job. If we're going to be in this together then don't expect points for doing the obvious things that need to done." You MAY however, receive a point for recognizing her every time she does even the smallest household chore because she 'sees everything that needs to be done' and you never will.  
Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Madville...
You are definately wise beyond my years...
"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Madville,
where can I find nos. 1 - 16?  Help a Reds fan out.

by ken on Jul 15, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You'll need the newly revised:
25 Rules for a Happy Fucking Marriage. As soon as my wife is finished going over it with my daughter (who's getting married on August 4th). I'll ask her if I can post it.
Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why on Earth should you be praised for
doing laundry?  Do you think it's normal to walk around in sweaty, filthy clothing, never changing your underwear?  Do you want praise for taking a shower?  Because it's the same thing!  

If I ever get married, we are doing our own laundry and will have separate clothes hampers.  That way husband can be as lazy as he wants (as long as it's not spilling out onto the floor) and I'll have my clean clothes.  But I'm already freaking 30 now with no prospects, so I guess that may never happen.  I think men are afraid of me because I know more about baseball than them.  I always thought men would want to date someone who wants to go to ballgames for dates rather than some expensive restaurant.  Sigh...

Does Homer have a girlfriend?  Would that be robbing the cradle?  

by Daedalus on Jul 15, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this may be the problem:
"If I ever get married, we are doing our own laundry and will have separate clothes hampers.  That way husband can be as lazy as he wants (as long as it's not spilling out onto the floor) and I'll have my clean clothes."

The only part of that that will work is the part that says "the husband can be as lazy as he wants".

:P

by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My former roommate
is a total jock. She met her husband via AOL's "Romance Connection."  She posted a message saying she wanted someone to go to hockey games with her.  They've been married for several years and have a kid now.

She did date a lot of guys who were intimidated by her sports skills before she met Mr. Right.  I remember this one chem major who had a McEnroe-style meltdown when she beat him at tennis.

Me, I always seem to end up with guys who hate sports.  It's the opposite of the usual situation.  I'm watching the game, the ol' ball and chain is whining that he wants to go shopping.

HIM:  "You promised we'd go to the mall now."

ME:  "It went to extra innings/tiebreaker/overtime!  I can't leave now!"

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jul 15, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Men think they know what they want
over 50% of the time they are wrong. If I were 25 years younger and free...well I know who's door I'd be a knockin' on and it wouldn't be no scrawny fake boob, brain dead tupperware girl for sure.

Homer is in need of experience yet at the same time he appears advanced for his age - GO for it Daedalus how could he resist?

Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Division of Labor
I do the yard and bills, she does the laundry and general house stuff. She hates working in the yard, I hate doing laundry. It seems to work.

by bobestes on Jul 15, 2007 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Laundry is not an issue at our house
My husband does his own underwear and socks and I do most of the rest. I do most of the cooking, but he makes a gourmet seafood dinner every Saturday night and also cans tomatoes and makes delicious tomato juice from the garden. He's not a wimp at 6'4" and can fix everything from cars to computers to refrigerators and more. He used to change diapers too.

As far as sports go, I'm the big team sports fan, probably because I grew up in an environment where that was appreciated and he didn't, even though he's the Cincinnati area native. It's never been a problem because we have a lot of other interests we share. He'd rather do individual sports like swimming and sailing.

Yesterday was our 28th wedding anniversary. So don't despair, Daedalus. We were over 30 too. I think that's the best time to marry when you've had a chance to see some of the world.

by pw on Jul 15, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm having...
some sort of bizarre reverse-Crying Game moment.
It's not the negativity. It's the misdirected negativity.

by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pw is a girl?
I did not know that...
"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rule #1 The Woman is always in charge.
With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Rodney Dangerfield

by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LEt's see...
there's Ash, Bubbafan, pw, anromache, and daedalus.  Am I missing any other girls that post often on here?

I've only met Ash, but if she's any indication, then yeah, the girls can take over this blog...

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of "shifting market values"...
Don't sweat the dry spell, Daedalus- 30 is the new 26!
"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 15, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
i'm not too worried yet.  i think i'm a "late bloomer."  

by Daedalus on Jul 15, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny,
my dry spells have come post-marriage.

by ken on Jul 15, 2007 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have you tried folding her laundry?
"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't try that one, ken
You'll end up in a neck brace.
"California was when the punk scene started" -Zach

by Man Mountain on Jul 16, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

MM, you must have the first printing...
..the second edition emphasizes the importance of stretching first.
"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hands off!
Homer Bailey is mine. Seriously. One of these days he's going to end up gagged in my trunk on the way to gatlinburg to marry me in one of those tacky love chapels.

On the other hand, I have never really had good luck with men and baseball. Or men and science. sigh

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Jul 16, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, no, not Gatlinburg
get him to Vegas, have Elvis marry you. God, I loathe Gatlinburg.
"428 feet of man." ~ Jim Day, creepily reliving a Chris Duncan home run.

by Ash on Jul 16, 2007 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this may be the problem:
"If I ever get married, we are doing our own laundry and will have separate clothes hampers.  That way husband can be as lazy as he wants (as long as it's not spilling out onto the floor) and I'll have my clean clothes."

The only part of that that will work is the part that says "the husband can be as lazy as he wants".

:P

by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 5:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well Well children...
I didn't get married until I was 27 and I had dreams yes dreams...and now I'm in charge of my own laundry, and if I fuck it up there are demerits, I'm also in charge of removing hers from the dryer if I want to use said dryer. There is an unspoken rule (this is in THE BOOK OF HFM RULES under rule #2 The Unspoken Rule) that I'm expected to be a gentleman and not throw her stuff onto the floor but rather to nicely separate and fold, leave it on the Laundry table. IF I want a point, it would be appropriate for me to neatly put away her laundry and do it right.

Wait 'til you get the Checkbook Rule...my wife is an account and a legal administrator and RULES rule. But hey its all in good fun here and still love her despite getting limited points and limited....gotta run I think I hear her calling!

Ruth was a damn animal. He knew when it was going to rain and things like that. Nature, that was Ruth." - Rube Bressler (1965)

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

She totally doesn't deserve...
a 15% discount!
"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Back to the subject
I disagree, as usual.
  1.  While the luxury tax may act as a cap on salaries, the reality is that only the Yankees and Red Sox are anywhere near that threshold.  Further, the Yankees have shown that if that's what it takes, they'll add short-term salary.
  2.  While there may be more owners who are fiscally responsible, winning a World Series is what they play the game for.  I guarantee that if Vlad Guerrero goes down, Artie Morrero will do whatever it takes to replace his bat; the Mets would do the same to replace Beltran.
  3.  Since the World Series is the ultimate goal, teams with small windows may also buy high.  The Braves have a departing Andruw Jones, a 40 year-old John Smoltz, and a (once again) fragile Chipper Jones; this may be their last chance for a while.
More importantly, as salaries have risen, so have revenues.  In fact, from 1998-2005, salaries have risen about 81% while revenues have risen 78% - and that doesn't include the vast amounts of money that MLB Advanced Media now generates.  So the money's there.

Plus, revenue sharing (thanks to lots of media attention) is finally doing what it should - teams like the Royals and Pirates now seem to accept that they're supposed to be spending that money on talent.

The right team will absolutely give up good talent for the right player, and money won't have anything to do with it.  Does that mean the Reds can get the moon for Dunn?  If someone who sees their window as very small is desparate enough to win this year, they might.  Considering the situation (the Reds can't lose him next year, they can only let him walk away), they may as well ask.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Jul 15, 2007 8:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Considering the situation... they (the Reds)  may as well ask.

I agree and I think that ultimately we may be happier with the moves that Wayne doesn't make this month.  Keep Griffey.  Keep Dunn.  Let them walk at the end of their contracts but don't be afraid to keep floating them in the mean time.

The Diamondbacks have a looooooot of young talent, ya know.

"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 15, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely - Cincy thinks too small.
"While there may be more owners who are fiscally responsible, winning a World Series is what they play the game for.  I guarantee that if Vlad Guerrero goes down, Artie Morrero will do whatever it takes to replace his bat; the Mets would do the same to replace Beltran."

Beltran hasn't had that good of year anyway. A 3/4 month rent-a-player (like Dunn)could make the difference for the Mets in the second half.
Interesting post.

With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Rodney Dangerfield

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 10:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

long term deal?
does wayner not have any interest in signing dunner long term?  reading through the posts it seems like its not even an option.  it seems reasonable to me that dunner would take a 15-16 mil per deal, which really isnt that much more than his option for next year.  the money is there for the deal to get done too, as milton and lohse and change coming off the books would cover it.  it seems logical to me.  am i crazy?
Barry Larkin is better than 10 super bowls put together

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 15, 2007 10:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm a Dunn defender
but I don't have much of problem letting him walk after next year. To resign him, you'll have to give years. From his physical makeup, it's not unreasonable to think his power numbers will decline steeply in his early thirties. Without the power numbers (and he's not walking as much, likely due to "coaching" designed to make him strikeout less), Dunn probably would become the hole in the lineup (Old) Reds Fans already think he is.
"California was when the punk scene started" -Zach

by Man Mountain on Jul 15, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about his imminent decline...
Yes he's a big boy but I still see a fair amount of upside to Dunn. His outfield play ain't gettin' no better on that I agree. As a hitter, however, I wouldn't be surprised to see him continue to improve.I think he can add to his power stats and improve his average to the 275-80 in the next couple of years and then stay around there for 4 or 5 or more years. It really doesn't pay too often (esp. in this line up) for Dunn to walk. I would like to see him bat #4 in front of BP or Griffey as it might help him get better pitches to hit. But as his numbers continue to grow,  umpires will start to adjust his strike zone accordingly as they've done with other quality veteran hitters. I see him less and less as a hole in the line up and more as a hole in the defense.
With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Rodney Dangerfield

by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He needs to get in the video room
watch his ABs, the pitcher he will face the next game and the Home plate Umps recent games to see what his strike zone is. He has a decent swing
"Always root for the winner. That way you won't be disappointed." -Tug McGraw

by Zach K on Jul 15, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The general Red Reporter consensus...
...is that (as Man Mountain sorta points out) the market is such that Dunn will have too many years (and thus too much money) available to him. (See Carlos Lee's contract.)  And the general Red Reporter consensus is that the Reds would be better served if it another team's years and another team's money.
"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

decline
i disagree with this argument.  lets say he gets 7 years and 100 mil, like lee.  for the sake of argument, lets say the reds sign him to this contract in the coming offseason.  this will make him a red for his 28-35 year old years.  it seems reasonable to think he could produce at his current level (i think hes done developing) for the next 4-5 years.  even with a sharp decline over his last 2-3, that gives us some damn good production into the near future, when its anticipated that this team will have the young talent in place to have the mid-market-magic-year we will need to contend for the WS.  i think signing him long term should really be a move to sign him up for the short to mid term, with the long term (metaphorically) mortaged to ensure we have a solid group in place once our young bucks get to the bigs.  
Barry Larkin is better than 10 super bowls put together

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

15 million a year for Dunn?
That is not very sound strategy when your payroll is just around 70 million.

Then consider the money you'll have tied up in Harang and Arroyo, and you've got over half your payroll tied up in three guys.

Then in those years, Phillips is going to get quite a bit more expensive.  

I think this year is proof, that the Reds waited a year or so too long to trade Adam Dunn...

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

proof?
Who would have replaced him?  It's not like there was somebody ready in the Minors.  

Maybe the mistake was signing Arroyo to an extension.  At least with Dunn, he's been very consistent for several years.  Arroyo was locked up 4 years into the future with only 2 good years on his record.  BTW, I'm happy with having Arroyo, but you are acting like Dunn is the bad money to spend, and I disagree.

If Dunn was easy to replace, it would be one thing, but there is no way they find someone like him on the open market for as cheap as he is.

chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why we should have traded him earlier...
Because now we aren't going to be able to resign him, and won't be able to get a good return in a trade.  

We could have probably gotten something good for him a year or so ago.  It doesn't matter if we didn't have anything to replace his production this year, because we can't do any worse than last place.

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A year or so ago
It mattered who replaced his production.
chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...
I must have missed that amazing postseason run the Reds made...

All snarkiness aside, we suck.

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I was talking about at the trade deadline.

I think you are purely using hindsight here.

chandrathan has come out of the darkness and has seen a great light!

by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I am...
because the end of last season is part of what is hurting dunn's trade value.

Hindsight is the only way to tell how well moves or non-moves worked out.

In hindsight, I think if we were going to be a last place team anyway, then we should have made a move to make us better in the future.

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is...
..we don't suck.

The '07 and '08 Reds have talent. Many talented players.  With a wiser man managing the below-league-average bullpen this team could have been somewhere closer to 40W-40L at the All Star break.  And the conventional wisdom before the season began was that 85-87 wins might have been one win more than the Cubs or the Brewers or Astros, remember?

It's not exactly how the Yankees and Red Sox roll, but it sure beats a gameplan for a "rebuilding" year and it certainly wasn't a What in the fuck are they doing? a la the Devil Rays.

We're in last place but I don't think we can pin that on Wayne for trading or not-trading Dunn.

"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not my point...
My point is we are in last place with someone that doesn't fit into our future plans.

We could have been in last place with someone who would help us beyond next season.

With or without Dunn we are in last place, and last place teams suck.

"Give them this: they never let the fact that only half of what they posted was funny stop them from posting still more." - Rastronomicals

by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i may be counting on
Big Bob a bit to open up his gold-plated bank account a bit on this one, but i dont think its unreasonable.  we pay dunner 10.5 this year, and his option next year is 13.  it doesnt seem like a big jump to me to make that 15 for the next few years.  we are paying lohse 4.2 this year.  you are telling me you would not sign adam dunn just because you would rather have the flexability to sign another kyle lohse?
Barry Larkin is better than 10 super bowls put together

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 16, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he doesn't need to open up too much
with milton's and lohse's salaries gone next year, he's got some money to play with.

by Daedalus on Jul 16, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Abso-fucking-lutely !
Daedalus, maybe you could start the Adam D. fan club, I would proud to be a charter member. He's so underrated for his age and size. And as you know size does matter.
With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Rodney Dangerfield

by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 12:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
...I think it was Ash that said, "size matters."

Daedalus said, "separate laundry hampers matter."

"Is (eight) some sort of Australian Rules Bukkake or something?" ~ Man Mountain

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That girl doesn't look at all like Ash
With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Rodney Dangerfield

by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Guys
Lets Get rid of Dunn and Griffey and wait for '09 to get Santana! Thats what Wayne is planning for!!! and we might have 5 catchers by then  one for every starter
"Always root for the winner. That way you won't be disappointed." -Tug McGraw

by Zach K on Jul 16, 2007 10:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

...haha"
"California was when the punk scene started" -Zach

by Man Mountain on Jul 16, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another voice on market values
Rosenthal has an article today about clubs hoarding prospects maintaining that sometimes they overvalue their prospects and wait too long to trade them: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7028662
The Reds' "crown jewels" come to mind. Wasn't that guys like Nick Esasky, Tracy Jones and Kal Daniels? Or John Roper?

by pw on Jul 17, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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