Shifting Market Value and Trade Expectations
Something unusual has been happening in baseball as of late and it is very relevant for us over the next month. In fact, I think it portends badly for our chances of rebuilding via firesale.
There has been a subtle, but substantial shift in the way the market values players. In short, baseball organizations are beginning to value their top prospects like never before. Baseball writers mention it from time to time, but I think the shift has really become evident this year.
I read a chat with ESPN's Jerry Crasnick last week in which he suggested the reason for the shift was that fans had become more knowledgeable about the prospects in their organization, so GMs would come under fire if they were dealt. He cited Clay Bucholz of the BoSox as an example. Personally, I don't think that's the reason.
In years past, top prospects were often dealt for half season rentals. The best example that comes to mind is the Tigers trading John Smoltz to the Braves for Doyle Alexander. That trade worked out about as well as any half season rental can, as Doyle went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA for the Tigers and helped them reach the postseason in 1987.
However, those deals have become increasingly rare, as the opportunity cost of dealing blue chip prospects is higher than ever before. The cost of giving up the production of blue chip prospects has begun to heavily outweigh the benefits. If you are dealing away inexpensive prospects, then you likely have to find replacement production via free agency or trade. No matter where the replacement production comes from, it's going to more expensive than the prospect that was dealt away, because prospects are the only inexpensive production available in the market. Not to mention, the cost of replacement production for the prospects that are dealt away is skyrocketing.
The average MLB salary in 1988 was $453,020 and players in their first 3 years of service time earned ~$85,000-150,000 and the top veteran pitchers were earning ~$1.75-2.0M. In 2006, the average MLB salary was $2,834,521 and players in their first 3 years of service time were earning $330-550K and veteran pitchers were making ~$10M in free agency.
Over the years, salaries have increased on average about 10% per year. The difference is that a 10% increase in $350,000 salaries is much less in real dollars than a corresponding 10% increase in the cost of free agents. Accordingly, the disparity between the cost of veteran free agents and the cost of prospects has grown by leaps and bounds.
If you deal away a young prospect, you are throwing away three years of VERY inexpensive production and three years after that of below market production. Instead of getting good production over the next three years for ~$350-500K, you have to replace that production with expensive free agents at a cost of $10M. It costs you $9.5M more per season for the next three seasons ($28.5M over three years) in order to acquire a half season rental. In the past, you could find replacement production at a much lower cost, likely ~$2M in 1988.
So, in 1988, the Tigers could replace top prospect John Smoltz for ~$1.75M. In 2006, that same type of move would cost ~$10M. Personally, I think that it is this cost increase that has led to organization valuing their prospects MUCH more highly. They are just very reluctant to deal these types of prospects.
Inflation certainly plays a part, but prospects are just a much more valuable commodity than in years past. The salary for first year players has risen 3.5 times (from ~$100K to ~$350K), but the cost of free agent pitchers has increased 5-6-7 times (from ~$2M to ~$10-12-14M).
By trading away top notch prospects, you are incurring a huge opportunity cost, because you can no longer take advantage of 6 years of bargain priced production. Dealing away top prospects for half season rentals is becoming impracticable because the cost of replacing the future production of that prospect is exponentially higher than in seasons past. The market has begun to factor in these increasing costs and the valuation of top flight prospects has changed accordingly.
Unfortunately, that bodes poorly for us, as we are unlikely to reap a huge return for Adam Dunn. The cost of replacement production just doesn't make it feasible to rent high priced veteran players anymore.
This trend seems likely to continue until the salaries at the beginning of a player's career begins to increase. Until then, dealing away top prospects is a risky proposition.
The disturbing part of this is that I'm not sure that Krivsky has realized this market shift in prospect valuation.
The idea that Krivsky is asking for such a massive package of talent in return for Adam Dunn makes me wonder. The market is not going to yield that kind of talent for an expensive veteran and setting such a high asking price is serving no purpose but to scare off potential trade partners. If we can get one elite prospect for Dunn, then I think we should be very happy with that.
At this point, I think the Reds should be willing to pay the market rate or perhaps even overpay to get certain targeted players (i.e. Matt Kemp, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, etc). It's time to recognize the market shift and cut a deal with the realization that they can still be beneficial under the new market paradigm.
My $.02.
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83 comments
Comments
Excellent first post!
by chandrathan on Jul 14, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It pretty much comes down to
by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 12:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Draft pick compensation
How can we decline the option year and then turn around and offer him arbitration?
Dunn gave us a team option under the condition that it was voidable if he was traded because he wanted to stay in Cincy. If he wasn't going to be in Cincy, then he wanted to control where he ended up.
Given his past comments, one would think he'd be interested in playing in the state of Texas, but Houston is not likely to be interested, as they locked up Carlos Lee who is similar in production and cost to Dunn.
So, unless the Rangers make a big play for Dunn in the offseason, he could conceivably accept arbitration. Cincy might be the most attractive option for him in 2008. If he does accept arbitration, then he could end up getting MORE in arbitration than he would've gotten had we exercised the team option. The huge contracts given out to Carlos Lee, Alfonso Soriano, etc could drive up the arbitration award of Adam Dunn.
Not only would we not get draft picks, but we might actually have to pay more to keep Dunn in 2008.
At this point, I think the only viable options are to trade Dunn before the deadline or to bring him back for 2008.
by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunner
As to whether they can offer him arbitration at the end of the season, I don't know. I was referring to next offseason, though I'm not sure how you were supposed to know that, because I didn't say it ;).
by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In order to get draft picks
by BLee2525 on Jul 15, 2007 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must be
As a Buckeye alumni and fan I have been totally spoiled with victories from them and consantly being a competitor for national contention. Please make the Reds a winner again so we can party like 1990.
by buckeye22fox on Jul 15, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
arb
by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be different in Dunn's case
Frankly, the Reds would be foolish to offer arbitration to a player that already gave them control of an option, if it's even within the rules. If they offer him arbitration, he'll probably make more than the $13M (assuming he doesn't get to the escalation levels) that they've got him for already. And if he wants to stay with the Reds, then they'd be on the hook for it even if they didn't really want him.
by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration
Also, does arbitration really only take into account other arbitration awards? That's interesting if that's the way it's done. I would have thought that the arbitrator would consider free agent deals as well. Anyone know for sure?
Thanks.
by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arb comps
It's more difficult to find arb comps for elite players or players with 5 or 6 years of service time. In those cases, the arbitrator may look at contracts (rather than just arb decisions). For players with more than six years of service, there are so few arb comps that other free agency deals determine what the player will be awarded. The Greg Maddux arbitration from a few years ago comes to mind.
I agree with you that arbitration would be much riskier than exercising the $13mm option.
by ken on Jul 15, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
I would also add that the luxury tax adds to the cost of those high salaries, making even the teams who can afford them think twice.
It also seems like the free agent/trade market has become a lot tighter in recent years, at least for certain types of players. Even teams with deep pockets are having trouble finding good starting pitchers and decent catchers, for example.
But I don't think Krivsky really expects to get what he's asking for Dunn. Either he's not serious about wanting to trade him, or it's just the opening move of the negotiating process.
FWIW, I'm hearing that it's really Griffey they're trying to trade, not Dunn.
(Trent says the marketing department doesn't want to trade Griffey, but ownership doesn't care either way.)
by BubbaFan on Jul 15, 2007 7:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts
I still don't know what to make of Krivsky's demands for Dunn. If he expects to get it, then I don't think he's got a good grasp of the market. If he doesn't expect to get those demands, then I'm not sure why he would make them in the first place. Why scare off teams who could potentially make a good offer?
by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a problem
If the marketing department is calling the shots on personnel moves, you have deep, deep organizational problems.
by BLee2525 on Jul 15, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think they should have a say
by boobs on Jul 15, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a very interesting post.
Very enlightening post - thanks for the info and the perspective.
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 8:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
nice post
by Caleb on Jul 15, 2007 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Elegant exposition
by pw on Jul 15, 2007 9:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good post
The idea that Krivsky is asking for such a massive package of talent in return for Adam Dunn makes me wonder. The market is not going to yield that kind of talent for an expensive veteran and setting such a high asking price is serving no purpose but to scare off potential trade partners. If we can get one elite prospect for Dunn, then I think we should be very happy with that.
The Reds are not in a position where they have to trade Dunn. They have him under contract for next season, so they aren't at risk of losing him. This is the exact reason why they shouldn't settle for anything. It's looking right now like there aren't a lot of big bats available, so that means that Krivsky can control the market. If other teams don't want to pay his price then they can try to find someone that produces like Dunn somewhere else. And the worst case scenario for the Reds is that Adam Dunn is their left fielder next season. Then they have the option of trading him in July or taking the compensation pick if he walks as a free agent.
by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reponse to Slyde
Also, from my understanding of it, if we exercise the option on Dunn, then he gets a full no trade clause. So, if we want to deal him, then it's now or never. I don't think a trade in 2008 is an option.
Maybe he could waive his no trade clause to enable us to trade him in 2008, but I'm not sure why he would do so.
by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No trade clause
by Slyde on Jul 15, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by Lark11 on Jul 15, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this was somewhat new info that came to light
by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What in God's holy name are you blathering about?
by ken on Jul 15, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with trading Adam Dunn...
The Reds organization doesn't want him, and it doesn't seem there are many other teams around the league that want him either.
The fact is, if he were a player other teams were just dying to get, he would have been traded a long time ago.
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, two years.
by Geki on Jul 15, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we having a game thread today?
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you get all of the laundry done?
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I did...
Not fair!
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Training rule #17:
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Madville...
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Madville,
by ken on Jul 15, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'll need the newly revised:
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why on Earth should you be praised for
If I ever get married, we are doing our own laundry and will have separate clothes hampers. That way husband can be as lazy as he wants (as long as it's not spilling out onto the floor) and I'll have my clean clothes. But I'm already freaking 30 now with no prospects, so I guess that may never happen. I think men are afraid of me because I know more about baseball than them. I always thought men would want to date someone who wants to go to ballgames for dates rather than some expensive restaurant. Sigh...
Does Homer have a girlfriend? Would that be robbing the cradle?
by Daedalus on Jul 15, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this may be the problem:
The only part of that that will work is the part that says "the husband can be as lazy as he wants".
:P
by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My former roommate
She did date a lot of guys who were intimidated by her sports skills before she met Mr. Right. I remember this one chem major who had a McEnroe-style meltdown when she beat him at tennis.
Me, I always seem to end up with guys who hate sports. It's the opposite of the usual situation. I'm watching the game, the ol' ball and chain is whining that he wants to go shopping.
HIM: "You promised we'd go to the mall now."
ME: "It went to extra innings/tiebreaker/overtime! I can't leave now!"
by BubbaFan on Jul 15, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Men think they know what they want
Homer is in need of experience yet at the same time he appears advanced for his age - GO for it Daedalus how could he resist?
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Division of Labor
by bobestes on Jul 15, 2007 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laundry is not an issue at our house
As far as sports go, I'm the big team sports fan, probably because I grew up in an environment where that was appreciated and he didn't, even though he's the Cincinnati area native. It's never been a problem because we have a lot of other interests we share. He'd rather do individual sports like swimming and sailing.
Yesterday was our 28th wedding anniversary. So don't despair, Daedalus. We were over 30 too. I think that's the best time to marry when you've had a chance to see some of the world.
by pw on Jul 15, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm having...
by Red Menace on Jul 15, 2007 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pw is a girl?
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't either
by Daedalus on Jul 15, 2007 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rule #1 The Woman is always in charge.
by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LEt's see...
I've only met Ash, but if she's any indication, then yeah, the girls can take over this blog...
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of "shifting market values"...
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 15, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny,
by ken on Jul 15, 2007 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you tried folding her laundry?
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't try that one, ken
by Man Mountain on Jul 16, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MM, you must have the first printing...
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hands off!
On the other hand, I have never really had good luck with men and baseball. Or men and science. sigh
by andromache on Jul 16, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, no, not Gatlinburg
by Ash on Jul 16, 2007 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this may be the problem:
The only part of that that will work is the part that says "the husband can be as lazy as he wants".
:P
by Blue on Jul 15, 2007 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well Well children...
Wait 'til you get the Checkbook Rule...my wife is an account and a legal administrator and RULES rule. But hey its all in good fun here and still love her despite getting limited points and limited....gotta run I think I hear her calling!
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
She totally doesn't deserve...
by chandrathan on Jul 15, 2007 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back to the subject
- While the luxury tax may act as a cap on salaries, the reality is that only the Yankees and Red Sox are anywhere near that threshold. Further, the Yankees have shown that if that's what it takes, they'll add short-term salary.
- While there may be more owners who are fiscally responsible, winning a World Series is what they play the game for. I guarantee that if Vlad Guerrero goes down, Artie Morrero will do whatever it takes to replace his bat; the Mets would do the same to replace Beltran.
- Since the World Series is the ultimate goal, teams with small windows may also buy high. The Braves have a departing Andruw Jones, a 40 year-old John Smoltz, and a (once again) fragile Chipper Jones; this may be their last chance for a while.
Plus, revenue sharing (thanks to lots of media attention) is finally doing what it should - teams like the Royals and Pirates now seem to accept that they're supposed to be spending that money on talent.
The right team will absolutely give up good talent for the right player, and money won't have anything to do with it. Does that mean the Reds can get the moon for Dunn? If someone who sees their window as very small is desparate enough to win this year, they might. Considering the situation (the Reds can't lose him next year, they can only let him walk away), they may as well ask.
by sidnancy on Jul 15, 2007 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
RE:
I agree and I think that ultimately we may be happier with the moves that Wayne doesn't make this month. Keep Griffey. Keep Dunn. Let them walk at the end of their contracts but don't be afraid to keep floating them in the mean time.
The Diamondbacks have a looooooot of young talent, ya know.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 15, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely - Cincy thinks too small.
Beltran hasn't had that good of year anyway. A 3/4 month rent-a-player (like Dunn)could make the difference for the Mets in the second half.
Interesting post.
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 10:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
long term deal?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 15, 2007 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Dunn defender
by Man Mountain on Jul 15, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about his imminent decline...
by Madville on Jul 15, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He needs to get in the video room
by Zach K on Jul 15, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The general Red Reporter consensus...
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
decline
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
15 million a year for Dunn?
Then consider the money you'll have tied up in Harang and Arroyo, and you've got over half your payroll tied up in three guys.
Then in those years, Phillips is going to get quite a bit more expensive.
I think this year is proof, that the Reds waited a year or so too long to trade Adam Dunn...
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
proof?
Maybe the mistake was signing Arroyo to an extension. At least with Dunn, he's been very consistent for several years. Arroyo was locked up 4 years into the future with only 2 good years on his record. BTW, I'm happy with having Arroyo, but you are acting like Dunn is the bad money to spend, and I disagree.
If Dunn was easy to replace, it would be one thing, but there is no way they find someone like him on the open market for as cheap as he is.
by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why we should have traded him earlier...
We could have probably gotten something good for him a year or so ago. It doesn't matter if we didn't have anything to replace his production this year, because we can't do any worse than last place.
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A year or so ago
by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...
All snarkiness aside, we suck.
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think you are purely using hindsight here.
by Slyde on Jul 16, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I am...
Hindsight is the only way to tell how well moves or non-moves worked out.
In hindsight, I think if we were going to be a last place team anyway, then we should have made a move to make us better in the future.
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is...
The '07 and '08 Reds have talent. Many talented players. With a wiser man managing the below-league-average bullpen this team could have been somewhere closer to 40W-40L at the All Star break. And the conventional wisdom before the season began was that 85-87 wins might have been one win more than the Cubs or the Brewers or Astros, remember?
It's not exactly how the Yankees and Red Sox roll, but it sure beats a gameplan for a "rebuilding" year and it certainly wasn't a What in the fuck are they doing? a la the Devil Rays.
We're in last place but I don't think we can pin that on Wayne for trading or not-trading Dunn.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not my point...
We could have been in last place with someone who would help us beyond next season.
With or without Dunn we are in last place, and last place teams suck.
by chandrathan on Jul 16, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i may be counting on
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 16, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't need to open up too much
by Daedalus on Jul 16, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abso-fucking-lutely !
by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 12:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
Daedalus said, "separate laundry hampers matter."
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 16, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That girl doesn't look at all like Ash
by Madville on Jul 16, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Guys
by Zach K on Jul 16, 2007 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...haha"
by Man Mountain on Jul 16, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another voice on market values
The Reds' "crown jewels" come to mind. Wasn't that guys like Nick Esasky, Tracy Jones and Kal Daniels? Or John Roper?
by pw on Jul 17, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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