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Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

Check it out. There's an elephant in the room.

So ummm... it seems that there is this fantastic baseball player out in California who should soon reach and surpass perhaps the single greatest milestone in the history of organized sports.

                                                         

For those among us who may be in some stage of denial and/or ignorance, the current tally is: Hank Aaron 755 ... Barry Bonds 745

                   

  Thoughts, anyone?

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roids!!
roids anybody?
Branden

by YellowJacket on May 9, 2007 11:06 PM EDT reply actions  

bonds totally stuffs his cup
"Swing away, Bronson." -- sayeth Chris Welsh.

by boobs on May 9, 2007 11:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Roids or not
at least he offers up more cogent criticism than Paula Abdul.

by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2007 11:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Bonds is a disgusting human being
and clearly has used performance enhancing drugs.  It is a farce that baseball has not held him accountable to this point.  I will not consider him a legitimate record holder when he hits his 756th homerun.  He degrads the game and society.

Just one fan's opinion.

by James Quinn on May 9, 2007 11:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Bonds
will be the owner of the greatest baseball record.

Bonds is a tremendous player and has been for quite awhile.

Bonds is the greatest left fielder in the history of baseball.

Bonds will be in Cooperstown one day.

And Bonds will go down in history as one of the two least respected players in baseball history.

He has no one to blame but himself.

by Caleb on May 9, 2007 11:43 PM EDT reply actions  

in 60 years
no one will care that he did steroids. depending on how nutrition evolves, he could be seen as a pioneer.
"Swing away, Bronson." -- sayeth Chris Welsh.

by boobs on May 9, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you may be on to something.
It might have been Olberman who sometime within the past two years spoke hypothetically and juxtaposed steroids with vision correcting laser surgery.  He proposed that Ty Cobb (and others) might have gladly used both enhancement techniques if they had been offered to long ago players "on the sly."  In other words, sportsmanship and gamesmanship have dubious histories in baseball and prior generations' cheating is always seen as more and more benign as the generations pass.

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with boobs
What follows is a bunch of random thoughts about steroids and drugs! Sorry for not being coherent.

Here's something about steroids that most people seemingly don't think about. You have to workout a ridiculous amount for them to work. In fact, what steroids do is enable you to work out a ridiculous amount. They're not magic pills that automatically inflate you like a balloon. The reason why steroids suck is because of their shitty side effects, and it's unfair to expect everyone to risk their future health.

Steroids aren't illegal because they make your muscles bigger; they are illegal because of the SIDE EFFECTS. Chemists are at work around the clock the develop steroids and other drugs that enhance performance without the side effects. Like boobs said, a few decades around the road, those drugs will be standard issue for people getting paid tens of millions of dollars to hit things very far and throw them very fast. Technology is advancing, and yes, it's taking our quaint notions of the American pastime with it.

You think Ty Cobb, bastard that he is, wouldn't have shot himself full of steroids? Please. How much better would Ted Williams have been if he'd had Tony Gwynn's access to video technology. Or what about these days, when players can carry around external hard drives and study pitchers around the clock? Doesn't that give them an unfair advantage?

And what about amphetamines, the other elephant that is apparently invisible? Amphetamines improve concentration and focus, and certainly enhance performance in a coordinated sport like baseball. Should we subtract some of Pete Rose's hits because of that? Amphetamines have been in baseball forever, but no one seems to make a peep about them. They're just as illegal as steroids.

Look at the litany of players who have been suspended for steroid use recently. With the exception of Palmeiro, they all sucked. Steroids made these replacement players slightly better than replacement-level. Sure, they helped Bonds, but they didn't help him that much. And a good deal of the players were pitchers! I hate to use the term Steroids Era, but Bonds has stood out from his peers, many of whom were using the same performance enhancers as he.

Finally, I'm glad we're having this debate. Dialogue and debate are what matters when it comes to baseball history, because the debate keeps the past alive. Don't think Bonds deserves to be called the home run king? Fine--tell your kids that Hank Aaron is the true home run king, and explain to them why. Just be warned that by that time, baseball players won't be any less muscle bound, and one of them might be pushing 900.

by teb7 on May 10, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Teb, give yourself some credit!
Your thoughts were completely coherent.  100%.  Well stated.  Here here!

When you said "agree with boobs" and then "random thoughts about.. drugs" I thought we were going back to Hancock's grams to pounds conversion.

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

All around the world today...
The kilo is the measure
Whoever got the kilos got the candy, man!
A kilo is 1000 grams, easy to remember
You never catch the kid goin' hand to hand!

Ghostface rules.

by teb7 on May 10, 2007 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

not my finest hour
"Swing away, Bronson." -- sayeth Chris Welsh.

by boobs on May 10, 2007 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

A couple of points
A good point about side effects, the natural extension being that steroids are a public health issue.  I don't have a huge problem with a grown man making a calculated judgment that the $X more he'll earn is worth the damage that steroids will do to his body.  But I do worry about the aggregate effect of steroids on all those that never make it.  The damage to their own bodies is bad enough, but the potential effect on others (e.g., increased domestic abuse) is equally troublesome.  

Which is why steroids are illegal, of course.  But I support whatever MLB can do to stamp them out.  Sending a message that steroids are not tolerated (and thereby eliminating the incentive to use them) should help curtail the use of steriods.  

But to me this is a moot issue.  MLB banned steroids and now tests for them.  Whatever happened prior to the implementation of the ban is nothing but speculation and wasn't against the rules anyways.  Which is too bad, but the fault lies with MLB and the teams.  

by ken on May 10, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

in 60 years
It might be that no one except historians remember baseball.


All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named "Bubba"?

by BubbaFan on May 10, 2007 6:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

what pisses me off
is that he was a first ballot Hall of Famer, even if he hadn't used steroids.  Being the only guy to ever have both 400 HRs and 400 SBs would have gotten it done easily, but his lust for the spotlight, envy of Sosa and McGuire's tainted run, and greed for money drove him to cheat.  I'll never be able to understand it.

by Blue on May 10, 2007 12:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I dunno man.
It seems like you've already got a pretty good handle on understanding it: "...lust for the spotlight, envy of Sosa and McGuire ... and greed for money"

For better of for worse many premier atheltes are raging egomaniacs. (We're kinda guilty of making em like that.) So imagine for a moment or two that you were Barry Bonds at the end of the last century and you saw this bullshit on your buddy's coffee table:

(And if you were Barry Bonds you would have been "in the know" and you would have known that this was in fact "bullshit.")

Again, you're Barry Bonds and you know that you are twice the pure hitter that either one of those juiceboxes are.  You're Barry Bonds.  Are you sure that you know what you would and what you would not do?

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

HUGE Asterick
* Never hussled or ran out to his position.
Put me in.

by satyanaas on May 10, 2007 12:37 AM EDT reply actions  

in a clutch situation,
i take eckstein over bonds every time. here's a good question to ponder: is eckstein a first-ballot hall of famer, or a unanimous first-ballot hall of famer?
"Swing away, Bronson." -- sayeth Chris Welsh.

by boobs on May 10, 2007 12:40 AM EDT reply actions  

in a clutch situation
good point.  In a clutch situation, Bonds gets walked.  Why haven't the media picked up on this yet?
2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on May 10, 2007 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't blame Bonds...
Blame baseball.

Bonds did nothing against the rules of Major League Baseball.  It's their faults for not testing for steroids, not the athletes fault for taking them.

Chandrathan is Pissed!

by chandrathan on May 10, 2007 9:06 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree
I'm certainly not in favor of steroids, but it seems very disengenuous to be going after players after the fact.  What they did was not illegal at the time, and now it is and hopefully they'll be serious about testing.  If a big name is caught, they should go down.  Things like Clemens secretly being suspended for 50 games damage the credibility of the game (if it were true, but I don't think it is).

I don't like Bonds.  I was hoping he wouldn't break the record.  In fact, I was pretty sure that he'd be useless this year.  So I'm astonished at the pace that he's been hitting dingers this year.  Assuming he is being stringently tested, that means he's doing this legitimately, well north of 40.  I mean, that's just amazing.

I wasn't alive to know Aaron as a ballplayer, but everyone always talks about how classy a guy he was.  I've got to believe that the racism he faced while chasing down a legend like Babe Ruth far overshadows anything that Bonds is facing.  His troubles all seem to be brought upon himself.  Aaron proved himself a worthy holder of the title Home Run King.  I would hope Bonds could be worthy, character-wise, but I doubt it.  I guess I'll hope A-Rod can take the title eventually (even though he's a ninny), and wistfully wonder what could have been if Junior had only stayed healthy.

And five years from now, Bonds and Marino can get together and just talk about how individual statistics far outweigh the value of a championship.

by Brendanukkah on May 10, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bull
Aaron proved himself a worthy holder of the title Home Run King.  I would hope Bonds could be worthy, character-wise, but I doubt it.

What does this even mean?  Only "classy" people deserve records?  Or do only "classy" people deserve baseball records?

Ty Cobb, greatest hitter of the first 1/2 century, was possibly the meanest person who walked the planet.  Ted Williams' ego was infamous.  Joe DiMaggio demanded he be called "The Greatest Living Baseball Player" at any speaking engagement.

And what's worse is that the whole Bonds persona is only towards, and because of, the press.  Remember a couple of years ago, when he famously said he'd "snap if you people don't back off"?  What wasn't reported at the time was (1) he said it because his young son was the one getting crowded, not him, and (2) he'd already asked the reporters to back away once.  But no, all we hear about is that asshole Bonds was going to "snap" at a bunch of poor, defenseless reporters.  Meanwhile, you never hear his teammates complain.  Mark Sweeney, whom Bonds supposedly accused of supplying Bonds amphetamines, said only he couldn't understand how his name came up.  Jeff Kent, who got into a fist fight with Bonds, won't say anything bad about him.  Doesn't that tell you anything?

If Bonds lied about his steroid testimony, why hasn't he been indicted yet?  If he cheated on his taxes (like Schilling accuses him of admitting), why hasn't he been charged?  I think I know why - those stories were leaked only to smear him further.  If there was any basis to either of those charges, there would have been action by now.

And five years from now, Bonds and Marino can get together and just talk about how individual statistics far outweigh the value of a championship.

Yea.  If only Bonds hadn't given up 6 runs to the Angels in the 7th and 8th innings of game 6, he'd have his ring by now.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on May 10, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW..
..I think that DiMaggio wante to be introduced as "the greatest living Yankee."

And if everywhere I went people pointed at me and whispered, "There's the guy the that's still sending roses to Marilyn Monroe's grave even though she left his bitter and jealous ass for a playwright," I think I'd come up with some "Greatest Living YadaYadaYada" line for myself too.

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alan
The Greatest living image Googler.

2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue

by Slyde on May 10, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

"There he goes"
"Homeboy fucked a martian once."

Points?

by Brendanukkah on May 10, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nope
Gone with the Wind.  That's the line that won Hattie McDaniel the Oscar.

2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue

by Slyde on May 10, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's my favorite of Norma Jean.

She'd pass my random testing.

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I found
According to The Sporting News (I probably could have found others, too), he "insisted" on being called the Greatest Living Ballplayer (paragraph 4).  I've read various places (so I believe it true) that it was actually part of the contract for any public appearance.
just....wow.

by sidnancy on May 10, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad.
Nicely done.  Your research further cements my notion that Joe D was a crazy old man.  Even before he got old.

I must have been thinking of Danny Tartabull.

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also found this..
.written about the (IMO) "Greatest Player Ever"...

"..Now, at 68, Mays says he doesn't much care how he's remembered. But others do. When baseball luminaries were polled after New York Yankees legend Joe DiMaggio died to see who had inherited the title of "greatest living player," St. Louis Cardinals Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Gibson asked incredulously: "You're assuming DiMaggio was the greatest living ballplayer?" Gibson believed Mays was the best even while DiMaggio was alive, and he has a lot of company. And while Mays insists he's never cared about the title, his failure to secure it until DiMaggio's death seemed a little strange to me, a holdover from a time when baseball wasn't ready for its Ruths and Gehrigs and DiMaggios to give way to the Robinsons and the Mayses and the Aarons.

My gut feeling, eccentric and ill-substantiated as it may be, is that Mays never got the full acclaim he deserved, because he was the best in baseball when much of white America wasn't ready for its best player to be black, and some of black America wasn't ready for him to be black like Mays. I grew up in New York in the 1960s listening to white kids argue that the Yankees' Mickey Mantle was better than Mays, one circumstance in which whites are decidedly disadvantaged. And I've wondered if that accounts for Mays' ambivalent relationship with fame. He is known for his kindness to friends, but he can be cantankerous and contemptuous to strangers and fans, and even longtime friends and admirers describe him occasionally as "bitter."

Some people scoff at the notion that Mays never got sufficient credit. "People are going to ask what you've been smoking if you try to say Willie Mays didn't get enough acclaim," San Francisco Giants president (and lifelong Mays fan) Peter Magowan told me when I ran that idea by him. "He was the highest-paid player in baseball in his day. Fans loved him."

But Giants manager Dusty Baker agreed with me. Talking about Mays' difficult relationship with the media, and with the baseball establishment for a time in the early '80s, Baker offers: "What people don't understand is what he went through. You'll just never know. He played in a time when the world wasn't as open-minded as it is now. And to this day, he's never gotten what a Ruth or a Cobb or Lou Gehrig have. You ever see a Willie Mays movie? Me, either. So he's had reason to be bitter. Whole bunch of us had reason."

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe D
but he sold the shit out of those Mr Coffee makers

by Caleb on May 10, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

not against the rules of baseball
I think that is such a bogus argument.  The use of steroids without a prescription is against federal law.  I'm afraid that trumps the rules of baseball.

by Blue on May 10, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Law vs. MLB rules
There are a lot of things against federal law.  If a player is convicted of insider trading, does that mean MLB should punish him?  MLB has its own set of rules that may (drugs) or may not (gambling) coincide with federal law.  I wish MLB had the stones to ban steroids years before it did, but that didn't happen.  

by ken on May 10, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's not my point
My point is that fans should blame Bonds for using steroids.  Just because it wasn't against MLB rules doesn't mean that his HRs and soon-to-be record aren't ill gotten.

by Blue on May 10, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about amphetamines?
Most of the records attained during the past 50 years were attained using an illegal drug. What makes steroids different from amphetamines other than amphetamines having been around for much longer?

by teb7 on May 10, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Amphetamines vs. steroids
They're comparable in a way, but I think they're of different degrees. The athletic benefits of steroids, particularly for power hitters, are far greater than the benefits of amphetamines.

And of course the flip side is that the long-term physical effects of steroids seem to be far more damaging than those of amphetamines.

I think steroids are worse. I'm not endorsing amphetamines, but they seem to me like just a little bit of cheating -- along the lines of a nod and a wink at Sutton or Perry being inducted into the HOF. In contrast, steroids seem like amphetamines on... uh... well, steroids.    

   

by ctnyc on May 11, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

To me
amphetemines are performance enablers while steroids are performance enhancers.  It's good that both are banned, but steroids are the more egregious violation, IMO.

by ken on May 11, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

People need to get off of their high horses
I'm sorry, but I'm just not outraged by steroids.

Back in the '80s, when everyone assumed Canseco and McGwire were using stroids, no one cared.  When Sosa went from a pretty good hitter (OPS+ around 125 for 3 years) to monster (160 or higher 4 of 5 years) overnight, no one cared.

But even more than that - are all of the records from the '60s and '70s questioned because of the prevalent use of amphetamines?  Did anyone question Gaylord Perry's qualifications for the Hall of Fame, considering he built them on cheating?

The answers are, of course, no.  No one has ever cared, because cheating to win has been a part of sports for as long as there's been sports.  And for the most part, those running the sports have looked the other way.  Owners were told in '96 that players were using steroids (the GM of the Dodgers thought the number was 10-20%); acting commissioner Bud Selig thought it was "something the owners might look into".  We know how far that went.  But still, it was out in the public 11 years ago, and no one cared.

So why do you (collectively) care now?  Because it's Bonds?  Because it's the HR record?

Ty Cobb used to beat up spectators; Don Drysdale threw a second pitch at hitters, so they knew the first one wasn't an accident; there were teams that (collectively) told their owners they wouldn't play with a black person.  Why is taking steroids so much worse than what's been going on for the past 125 years?

And if you're trying to make a point by posting the two pictures above, compare pictures of Jr sometime.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on May 10, 2007 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

personally
I don't care if they use steroids in the pros. And I feel no sympathy for the guys who will be aflicted with the side effects in their golden years. They make enough money now they can afford good medical care.

by Caleb on May 10, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let me clarify something
the first sentence should have read I don't care if they used steroids in the pros.

Anyone caught now deserves what ever punishment they get.

by Caleb on May 10, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The pictures..
..were meant to stir up some comments more than anything.  I agree largely with what you have stated above (see my other comments in this diary).  However, I don't think that those of us who are "okay with" or "indifferent towards" past steroid use/abuse should get a "free pass" out of the discussion and debate because MLB only recently got serious about cleaning out its medicine cabinets.

Aside from the "adjusted for inflation" differences between the two Bonds, I see something else in those pictures.

Look into the dark brown eyes of that young player from the past.  He can see the future: "I'm going to the show, baby."

Now look at that his wig and his necklace(?) and his tube top and his hearty laugh-along-with-me-because-I'm-your buddy-now smile.  In his mind nothing he does can detract from the fact that he is certainly one of the all-time greats.  Not steroids.  Not grumping and grieving like a surly ass.  Not cross-dressing.  Nothing.  He's an odd post-millennial caricature of Babe Ruth.

"Baby, I am the show."

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 10, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bonds, Rose and the MLB
My problem with Barry Bonds isn't so much with him, but w/ MLB.  Everyone knows that Bonds used roids, his record is going to be forever tainted.  IMO, Bonds isn't as good as Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, or any other number of players.

My beef w/ the MLB is this: they are a bunch of hypocrites.  They keep Rose not only out of the Hall but banned from the last game at Cinergy, banned from walking on the field in Cincinnati, b/c of how he "embarrassed the game."  The same people who refuse to give on this, looked the other way when McGwire and Sosa embarrased the game.  Those guys are free to walk on the field whenever they plese and hold whatever job a team might want to offer them, in Sosa's case, he's back running up his HR totals.  And now Bonds is going to get one of baseball's most cherished records aided, at least in some degree, by roids.  All the while MLB sits on their high horse keeping one arrorgant, tainted player out of the game while letting the other bask in the glory and rake in the cash.

MLB looks the other way while Kenny Rogers blatantly cheats during the World Series but continues to chastise Rose for the violating the "integrity of the game."  I would be a lot less outraged by this if the MLB would give Rose at least a partial amnesty and therby admit the one fact that we all know: Professional sports is comprised to a large degree of arrogant, self serving individuals who put the almight dollar ahead of everything else.  With this fact in mind it's a lot easier to forgive Bonds, Rose, Mac, and whoever.

by JCH888 on May 10, 2007 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the real issue here is Bonds' hair.
I'm convinced he's using some sort of product - look how long and shiny his hair is now. I bet that product is banned by MLB. I see another congressional investigation coming.
Wanted: Relievers for three quick outs in any inning.

by Ash on May 11, 2007 12:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Whatever he's using..
..he needs to have some sent to Phil Spector's team of lawyers and handlers.

"I'm selling hand-tied vegetable-dyed oriental style rugs at 70% off. Mention that you are a RED REPORTER and I'll give another 15% reduction!" ~Virgil J Bench

by Alan @ Red Reporter on May 11, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

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