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What the hell is this supposed to be?

Stupid Reds hat

Yes, it's just a hat, but damn if it didn't piss me off nonetheless. I actually think MLB gets a decent amount of things right (mostly having to do with their website offerings, i.e. radio, TV, etc.), but wow do they do some stupid things. Unless this was all New Era, in which case I declare them too stupid to be selling MLB licensed merchandise.

(Via Church of Baseball)

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wow
I've got nothing other than that is hideous
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 13, 2007 7:37 PM EST reply actions  

thats
the limited edition maker's mark version
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 7:41 PM EST reply actions  

ok
I have thought about it for a minute and now I have to vent. I know I am old school and a pretty conservative guy but that "cap" is ridiculous. I just can't see any reason why anyone would buy that hat. To me it would be an embarrassment to wear that and I cannot even fathom paying for something that bad. I'm not sure that I will ever purchase anything from the company that made that piece of garbage.
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 13, 2007 7:50 PM EST reply actions  

obviously...
It's gotta be the actual hat from when the maker came out with the hat. Somebody was mad that it was a sideways logo... and... bam... an atrocious hat is born... I bet those'll show up at Hickman soon...ugggh...
In accordance to the prophecy

by crolfer on Feb 13, 2007 7:50 PM EST reply actions  

Although...
It'd be funny if one of our players wore that to opening day...
In accordance to the prophecy

by crolfer on Feb 13, 2007 7:51 PM EST reply actions  

no it wouldn't
Maybe it means the Reds are about to acquire Sabathia or Belliard.
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 13, 2007 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

im sorry...
what's the big deal about this? i read daedalus' post, and i dont agree at all that this represents "gangsta" culture. I didnt even think of blood until i read that. i think it's supposed to be wet paint, but whatever.

so who cares? they tried something a little bold, and some people will like it and some wont. how does this reflect on the rest of new era's products?

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 7:58 PM EST reply actions  

Gangsta?
I can promise you it's not annoying me because it represents "gangsta" culture, it's annoying me because it's ridiculous.

There are certainly some urban clothing items that I don't fully understand (jerseys with 30 logos on them being the first thing that pops to mind), but I didn't even place this hat in that category. It's just stupid.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde

by JD Arney on Feb 13, 2007 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

no
that was in response to d's post, not yours. sorry about the confusion.
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're right
It's supposed to be paint.  The style is called "tagged" (as in graffiti, I assume).

Though I must admit, when I first saw it, I thought it was a diss - one of those "rivalry" designs.  Like the "Yankees suck"/"Red Sox suck" designs that are approved here in the northeast.

"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 13, 2007 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

it is just goofy looking
I just do not like it. Did they that make that for all MLB teams?
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 13, 2007 8:37 PM EST reply actions  

i think so
The 3 teams i checked (reds mets yankees) all had it. i assume the others do as well.
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

ugh
I think it sucks no matter what logo is on it
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 13, 2007 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

i just checked their web site
and theyre selling the design for almost every team:

Atlanta
Baltimore
Boston
Chicago White Sox
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Colorado
Florida
Houston
Kansas City
LA Dodgers
LA Angels
New York Mets
New York Yankees
Oakland
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Diego
San Francisco
Seattle
St. Louis
Toronto
Washington

guess i should have just typed which teams they dont have for sale. oops.

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes
There's a "tagged" design for every team.  Even the Yankees. (Sacrilege!)
"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 13, 2007 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

gangsta
I agree with JD that the hat is ridiculously stupid.

I also agree with Daedalus that the hat is part of New Era's appeal to the gangsta image.

The high school where I teach is 95% white, and a considerable number of these white boys is wanna-be bad-boy gangsters. I see hats like these every day, and they are annoying to say the absolute least. They're ugly. They're stupid. They're characteristic of stupid punks.

The sad thing is, I bet they'll sell a ton of them.

by greg456 on Feb 13, 2007 9:34 PM EST reply actions  

graffiti culture
and 'gangsta' culture are two totally different realms. sorry, i completely disagree.

and it's just a hat.

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 13, 2007 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

clarified
The gangsta image that I'm referring to is the not the "tagged"/dripping look. It's the whole style of the hat...oversized, logo to the side, flat bill.

It's just a hat, but it's freakin ugly.

by greg456 on Feb 13, 2007 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

gangsta/urban
There's a blurry line between gangsta and urban, and I'm not sure which side this falls on.  No matter.  The hat is intended to appeal to audiences baseball sorely misses.  I don't have any data to back this up but I feel pretty confident in saying that MLB has an older and whiter audience than the NFL or NBA, and part of that is due to its marketing.  

Of course, a much bigger part is having World Series games end after midnight and neglecting urban neighborhoods, but I don't expect that to change under the current leadership.

by ken on Feb 13, 2007 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

urban appeal
I think it's mostly that baseball really isn't a city kid's game these days.  I grew up mostly in the city, and we would occasionally try to play baseball on an asphalt basketball court.  First and third bases were the poles for the tennis net, second was the pole holding up up the basketball hoop.  No outfield to speak of.  And definitely no sliding.  It was really a lot easier to play basketball.

I'll also add, as someone who became a fan relatively recently, that baseball is not very exciting as modern entertainment is judged.  It's not fast-paced.  There's not much violence.  Innings make it really easy to turn off the TV.  With football, there's a "carryover" that makes it hard to turn away.  A failed scoring attempt may mean great field position for the opponent.  Not  so with baseball.  Inning over, you're back to square one.  

It's very interesting once you get some understanding of the game, but it's pretty boring if you don't understand it.  Unlike basketball and football, where even people who don't understand the game can enjoy the action.
 

"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 14, 2007 6:52 AM EST up reply actions  

wasn't always that way
You're definitely right that baseball is harder to play in cities.  But it used to be done.  If MLB tried a little harder in getting city kids to play, marketing the game right, and helping urban high schools with their programs, it'd help regain that audience and would have a steadier pipeline of black talent.  Basketball and football are easier to follow for novices, which is why it's important to expose kids to baseball early on.  Plus, black players held just 9% of roster spots in 2005, down from 18% in 1991.  This is one of the more under-discussed failings of Selig's regime.  

by ken on Feb 14, 2007 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it did used to be done
But I think there was less traffic then.  You can't play in the street any more.  People drive like maniacs.

Assuming your mom lets you play outside at all...

The friend who got me into baseball (basically, by being patient enough to answer my dopey questions) is old enough to have seen the 1960 World Series in person.  She was just a kid, but she would run over Forbes Field after school.  They used to let people in free after the halfway point, and school let out just in time for her to get in free.  She was there in person when Maz hit the only walkoff homer in WS history.  

What a different world.  The WS during the day.  And letting people in free.  These days, a lot of people won't even take their kids to the ballpark because of the drunken jerks, let alone let a kid go to the park alone.  

"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 14, 2007 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Only walkoff HR until Joe Carter
to end the series that is.
He may be new school when it comes to baseball, but he's old school when it comes to love.

by Red Menace on Feb 14, 2007 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry
I should have said "game 7 walkoff homer."

It doesn't get any more dramatic than that.  You had to love it...even a Yankee fan like me.  

I was driving through Pittsburgh last summer, and took this photo from the car.  They left one piece of the outfield wall when they tore down the old stadium:

The white lettering is the distance number where Maz's hit went out.

"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 14, 2007 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That's pretty cool
They left the whole stadium in Detroit, but that's how they do things there.
He may be new school when it comes to baseball, but he's old school when it comes to love.

by Red Menace on Feb 14, 2007 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish they did it that way in NY
They're going to be demolishing Yankee Stadium when the new one is finished.  Just doesn't seem right.
"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded." - Ken Singleton

by BubbaFan on Feb 14, 2007 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

re
Did you call it stickball?
He may be new school when it comes to baseball, but he's old school when it comes to love.

by Red Menace on Feb 14, 2007 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

We have to be supportive today
RM's NRD is at it's yearly high point today.  Good thing pitchers and catchers report on Saturday.
Can I get a hooha?

by Slyde on Feb 14, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

This is the first I've succumbed to signatures
Apparently it shows up on all my old posts too. Who knew?
He may be new school when it comes to baseball, but he's old school when it comes to love.

by Red Menace on Feb 14, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

different but not so different
Love ya boobs, but I gotta completely disagree with your complete disagreement. I live in Queens, and there's gangsta-produced graffiti all over the place. I know there's a subculture of graffiti writers that have nothing to do with gangs and are serious artists. But about 95% of the graffiti I see in my neighborhood (or while looking out the window of the above-ground stretch of the F train in Brooklyn) is gang-related. The purpose of most of it, in fact, is to mark gang territory. And you can always tell the difference too. Serious-artist writing looks like pop art -- something you might see at a modern art musuem. Gangsta writing looks like that hat.

by ctnyc on Feb 13, 2007 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough
but its still just a hat
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 14, 2007 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It's like that in DC
Apparently those of us who live in big cities understand this hat a little more than those who don't.

It's not just a hat.  The people who wear these types of hats wear them as symbols for their territory - i.e., the city of their gangs.  The hats have absolutely nothing to do with baseball, which is one reason I object to New Era selling these types of hats with baseball logos.  But the bigger reason I despise them is they are marketing a product to criminals and therefore condoning criminal behavior.

There's a whole forest out there, not just that tree in front of you.  It's not just a hat.

Still haven't found what I'm looking for.

by Daedalus on Feb 14, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Men with hats
I think most people recognize that hats can become part of a gang's "uniform."  But there are many, many more kids (like in Greg's HS) who are just buying them because they look cool, and that's fine.  MLB needs to market to urban kids - and if the price for that is a few hoodlums buying the same hat, so be it.

by ken on Feb 14, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

THANK YOU
well said
"Pitchers did me a favor when they knocked me down. It made me more determined." -Frank Robinson

by Caleb on Feb 14, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

re
lets ban bandanas while we're at it. in fact, let's ban colors, because gang members use colors to delineate who owns which territory.

come on.

it isnt violence. it's a hat.

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 14, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

If that's just a hat
then a flag is just a piece of cloth.
Still haven't found what I'm looking for.

by Daedalus on Feb 14, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said
Great point Daedalus. I don't want to go off on too much of a philosophical rant here, but I need to get a couple things off my chest.

Enough with the "it's just a hat" argument. I understand where you're coming from, I'm not saying you're bad people, but it totally misses the point. There is nothing in this world that has any meaning except for what we assign to it. To use the flag analogy, I don't know what the Ukrainian flag looks like and I could care less. It has no meaning to me. But there are people who would die for it. It has enormous meaning to them.

I could care less if somebody draws a cartoon depicting the prophet Mohammed. It's a cartoon, I can't begin to comprehend why anybody would turn homicidal over it. And yet dozens of people died in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East last year in the riots protesting such cartoons.

I remember when Air Jordans first came out. Kids were murdered for their sneakers. I remember one story about a kid being murdered because he STEPPED on somebody's sneakers. I could give a crap about sneakers. The ones I own are falling apart and I keep meaning to buy new ones, but never get around to it. But apparently sneakers mean a hell of a lot to some people.

So when I hear "it's just a hat," all I can think is: Yes. To you. It's just a hat to you. Just some cloth with a stupid logo. Ultimately that's what it is to me too. But to some people it is much more. And it is because of those people that I am concerned. I don't know what MLB or New Era was trying to do. I very much doubt that either was trying to glorify gang violence, but I do know that the hat can at least be reasonably interpreted as such. And that's a problem. To dismiss it as silly or no big deal seems to me to be the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "lalalalalalala."

I would love to see MLB do a much better job of reaching out to kids, especially inner city kids. There are many ways to do this, some of which have been done and been very successful in the past (remember those Joe Morgan commercials?) But appealing to the worst impulses of our society and our children, whether intentional or not, is no way to run a railroad.      

by ctnyc on Feb 15, 2007 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I've enjoyed this debate
and many a salient point has been made.  But I don't feel that a gang's adoption of a particular hat should hijack MLB's urban marketing policies.  As long as we're using grandiose political and cultural analogies, this is akin to letting the terrorists win by virtue of our tempered civil liberties and freedom of speech.  

This isn't to say that MLB should ignore negative consequences due to the hats.  MLB should consider discontinuing the hats if it can be shown that gangsters buy a significant portion of the hats or if a slew of murders are connected with the hats.  But short of something extraordinary, I don't like the idea of MLB dictating its urban marketing policies according to the fashion whims of gangsters.

by ken on Feb 15, 2007 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Good points
I too have enjoyed this debate, and there are certainly good points all around. I think this is one of those cases where there is no definitive right or wrong answer. But I do have to take issue with just one point. I don't think the terrorist/civil liberties analogy is entirely apropos. Nobody is saying that MLB/New Era does not have the right to market these hats, just that's it's stupid and culturally insensitive to do so. I don't think they need to check with the gangstas before they market something, but a little common sense can prevent offending people and help avoid a PR problem (the last thing MLB needs).

And as my other great love is politics, a side comment about civil liberties: I believe that the curtailment (or attempted curtailment) of our civil liberties over the last 6 years is completely the product of an administration led by people who are trying to restore pre-Watergate levels of power to the presidency. In practice it has little to do with terrorists, short of providing a convenient excuse to rein in dissenters. Emboldening the terrorists is the excuse that is used any time someone disagrees with the administration's policies. It worked for a long time too, but now people are finally waking up.

Oops, hope I didn't open a whole new can of worms...  

by ctnyc on Feb 15, 2007 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Re
I think you are more optimistic than me about people responding to the Patriot Act and the loss of civil liberties, but I definitely see your point.  As for my anology, let me put it this way: just as terrorism was wrongly used as the excuse to curtail civil liberties, the fear of selling to gangstas could be wrongly used to thwart a legitimate marketing policy.  That imperfect (for the reason you pointed out) analogy aside, IMO MLB should still go ahead and sell these hats.  

by ken on Feb 15, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

the jordan analogy
illustrates my point beautifully. jordans caused violence because they were something violent kids desired, and it had nothing to do with the design or marketing on the behalf of nike. it had everything to do with jordan's ubersuperstar image and the exorbitant price of the shoes.

this hat is nothing like a flag. it doesnt in itself represent anything other than the reds and a goofy design. plus kids in gangs don't need new ways flag their territory - they already have them.

like bandanas. theres nothing inherently violent about a bandana, or in its design, but theyve been hijacked by kids in gangs nonetheless.

im not sticking my fingers in my ears and singing lalalalalalala, im saying i think you guys overestimate how much influence hat designers have on people with violent behaviors. violent people, and people growing up in highly violent environments, don't need impetus from hat designers to fuel their rage. theyre doing it because it's all they know, and discontinuing a line of hats isnt going curb anything.

now, if you wanna talk about getting handguns off the streets, alleviating drug markets, creating meaningful and relatively well-paying jobs in the innercity or expanding outreach programs that work, then let's talk. but dont come at me with hats. that confuses a symptom with a cause.

that's what i mean when i say it's just a hat.

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 15, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Clarification
Well I'm not working today and I've got nothing really to do, so I'll continue this.

First, though, a thank you. In keeping with the spirit of boobs' earlier "Bletiquette" post, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate the well-reasoned, passionate, respectful debate on this site. In my opinion it is one of the best things about Red Reporter. I'm so tired of sports or political blogs where the debates degenerate into name-calling and personal attacks. Even if I don't agree with you, I respect your right to your own opinion, and I feel that respect back. So thank you, everyone. If only our national political discourse were the same...

Anyway, on to the clarification. I in no way meant to imply that the Air Jordans were the cause of the violence. You're absolutely right to blame the violent kids and not the sneakers. And if it hadn't been the Air Jordans, it would probably have been some other status symbol. I was just trying to illustrate that something that might seem small and insignificant to one person may be a reason to murder to another person.

And that's my argument in a nutshell. You say that the hat doesn't represent anything other than the Reds and a goofy design. My point is that no inanimate object has any meaning apart from what an individual assigns to it. But it's all relative to the individual. You look at the hat and assign to it the meaning of Reds and goofy design. Fair enough. But an inner city kid might look at the same hat and assign to it the meaning of membership in a gang. (And in my view the design of the hat makes this easy to do and very likely.)

And I think that's a bad thing for MLB. I'm not saying the hat will cause kids to join gangs or commit violent acts. Even if it did, if we were to ban the hat something else would take its place. This country was founded on freedoms of speech and expression. MLB has every legal right to market such a hat. But why would it want to?

The philosophy-major in me argues that we make sense of our world largely through symbols (letters, numbers, images, etc.), and these symbols can cause powerful emotional reactions (i.e. a swastika in a synagogue, a burning cross at an NAACP meeting, etc.) Even if it's inadvertent, if this hat can be reasonably construed to symbolize violent gang activity (and I argue that it can), then why would MLB want any part of it? It is in the best interests of a wholesome, family-friendly, "America's pastime" organization like MLB not to potentially normalize or glorify the worst elements of our society. Apart from the ethical issues, it's simply bad PR.

One final thing. In your last paragraph you talk about getting handguns off the streets, which I am 100% in favor of (and, living in NYC, I applaud Mayor Bloomberg's efforts to that end.) But it reminds me of the argument used by the NRA: guns don't kill people, people kill people. Your arguments about the hat seem to me to be the same -- the hat doesn't commit gang violence, violent kids do. What I say to this argument, whether about hats or guns, is that it's true. As far as the surface level goes, nobody can dispute the fundamental truth of the argument. But why allow easy access to guns, such that they might fall into the hands of violent people? And why market a new product that will be used to represent gang violence? Sure, if it's not the hat, they'll find something else. So let them find something else. Don't get my beloved sport and my beloved team in the middle of all this. I can't see any productive purpose that it can serve.

Whoo! I do tend to go on and on, don't I?

         

by ctnyc on Feb 15, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm just glad that
people on this site have brains, regardless of their opinions.  

seriously, there is now a show about people being "smarter" than a fifth grader.

america is trying to outrace rome in decline, i'm afraid.

Still haven't found what I'm looking for.

by Daedalus on Feb 15, 2007 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

1$
goes to the first RR'er to wear this hat to a game (photo evidence required)
GO REDS!

by ewquinn on Feb 13, 2007 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

$10
To Ash if she wears this to her new job during regular business hours (photo evidence required).
Don't mind me...just thinking positive and pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Feb 13, 2007 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

And I'll even...
Pay for the hat.
Don't mind me...just thinking positive and pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Feb 13, 2007 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm...
I'd do it because it's so God-awful. And then we can destroy it.
Reds fandom: A study in futility and masochism.

by Ash on Feb 15, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Oooh.
A hat burning.  Definite YouTube material.

I can't seem to find the hat on the Reds' website.  Can someone send a link?

Don't mind me...just thinking positive and pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Feb 16, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Try here....
Linky


All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named "Bubba"?

by BubbaFan on Feb 16, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it looks that bad.
But I guess I'm just a hoodlum punk.

by Geki on Feb 13, 2007 9:50 PM EST reply actions  

There are uglier
This hat style is to camo hat style as Jeff Conine is to Tony Womack.  Ugh, but less ugh.

by manhands on Feb 13, 2007 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

It's a cap!
I first thought it was photoshopping by an anti-Reds fan. The tilted C immediately made me think it was dead, which only reinforced the tagging as blood confusion.

I would never buy one, but it doesn't upset me. There will still be plenty of classic Reds hats to buy. Fashion needs the freedom to be very weird.

by Red Menace on Feb 14, 2007 1:59 AM EST reply actions  

Reminds Me
Looks like something Pokey Reese would have designed... and for the record, that is not a good thing.

by indy on Feb 14, 2007 8:46 AM EST reply actions  

Thoughts..
I had a couple thoughts. I started out with just looking at the hat and agree with some of those above as it looking like blood and thinking I may get a Cubbie one. I'd agree it fits in with the urban appeal.

My second thought on the latter discussions about inter-city youth, maybe this is MLB's way of getting to those kids. Put something out that they will wear and then start paying attention to what's on their head.. It is just a though, but I am sure that MLB does try to think of ways to include youth and inter-city kids.

by snohio on Feb 14, 2007 11:22 AM EST reply actions  

hey boobs
if you like the hat so much why don't you marry it?
"You my friend, are hardcore." - Krivdawg to the bathroom mirror

by rose2hall on Feb 15, 2007 3:54 PM EST reply actions  

for the record
that hat is hideous
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 15, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

so would you say...
...you hate it as much as Tim Hardaway hates gays?
"You my friend, are hardcore." - Krivdawg to the bathroom mirror

by rose2hall on Feb 16, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

i dont believe
that much hate exists
And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

by boobs on Feb 16, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

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