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Johnny Bench

The number two catcher of all time?

The greatest catcher to ever wear a major-league uniform was Bench. Mike Piazza has proven to be a better hitter. Ivan Rodriguez has proven to be a better fielder. Berra won more championships. Carlton Fisk lasted longer. But none of them was Johnny Bench. Bench did everything well defensively. Offensively, he drove in more runs in the 1970s than any other player. FOX analyst (and former catcher) Tim McCarver told me, "Bench is the greatest catcher of all time. It's not even close. The two Pudges (Rodriguez and Fisk) may have an edge on John from a physical standpoint ... but if you consider the number of clutch hits, RBIs, and add everything together, it's Bench." Amen.

Number one?  Josh Gibson according to Elliot Kalb:

In an alternate universe, this is the man -- not Babe Ruth -- whose short, compact swing produces the longest, and most home runs. He would be the charismatic figure that would first reach 500, 600, and 700 career home runs. Playing in the Negro Leagues in the 1930s, he never got the chance to play Major League Baseball. The home-run record for a catcher in the major leagues was only 209 until the mid-1950s. Gibson would have had two or three times that amount.

I have no problem with Gibson being ranked, or receiving an honorable mention. But number one? A player that never played a major league game (through no fault of his own obviously)?

Johnny Bench is baseball's all time greatest catcher.  Saying anything else is simply conjecture designed to provoke controversy.

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Bench vs. Gibson
I think it's complete conjecture either way.  Comparing two catchers from completely different eras AND completely different leagues is an impossible task.

But it's what makes baseball so much damn fun.

Having said that, treating the Negro Leagues like some kind of minor league is not realistic.  If you look at what the best of the Negro Leagues did to Major League Baseball in the '50s and '60s, there is no way you can say those people were playing against inferior competition.

I think it makes just as much sense to rate Gibson higher than Bench as it does to rate Bench over Gibson.  Which, by the way, is no sense at all.

Craig B

by bigcraig on May 13, 2005 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree
That's kind of what I was getting at, but you put it much better than I did.

It's not that I think Johnny Bench was far superior to Gibson, it's that it's impossible to know.  

Maybe lists like this simply get on my nerves, I don't know.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde

by JD Arney on May 13, 2005 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Berra v. Bench
Allowing for Josh Gibson and the unfairness which was attached to him, and acknowledging that I always admired Johnny Bench, there is a measure by which you can and should note Yogi Berra as the greatest catcher who ever played the game (albeit by a very short distance) with Johnny Bench his second. And it is not conjecture but fact.

Assume Berra and Bench a pretty tight match as hitters. They're awfully close on the surface, when all is said and done. But you would have to stretch the evidence a little bit, considering Berra was more run productive, while striking out far less often and killing fewer rallies with double plays than Bench. (Where on earth would anyone get the idea that a man who drove in more runs in fewer games, produced 14 more runs per 162 games lifetime, and is credited with creating almost half a run more per 27 outs---while hitting into 55 fewer double plays---which is exactly what Yogi Berra did over Johnny Bench, is not the superior hitter, clutch or otherwise?)

Assume, too, that Berra and Bench are near equals as defencive catchers. Well, actually, they aren't---and the nickel goes to Yogi.

a) He led his league in his position's defencive stats more often than Bench did.

b) Berra's range factor is higher above his league's than Bench's is above his.

c) Berra turned, in 43 less games behind the plate, 18 more defencive double plays.

Bench probably threw out more baserunners than Berra, but the running game was only coming back to baseball life midway through Yogi's life as a regular backstop; it was well enough re-established and active by the time Bench had made his bones. Johnny Bench had far more opportunities to throw out enemy baserunners.

Both men were deadly enough in the World Series; you could probably make a case that, had he been given as many Series in which to play as Berra, Bench might have approached Yogi's productivity. In fourteen Series Berra reached base a little more often than Bench and used up a few less outs to get there, and while Bench outslugged him by a reasonable margin, Berra did hit twelve World Series homers and drive in 39 World Series runs (including ten in the 1956 Series alone), but if you could get Bench into even six more Series than he got into, he'd probably be in Yogi's neighbourhood, and probably in the house next door.

Everybody with me? Good. Now: For all we speak of what it is a catcher does or does not do, it is rarely enough bespoken that one of his primary pieces of business---maybe the first and most important piece of business he has---is to handle a pitching staff. I've looked it up, to see for myself, after reading Allen Barra's very convincing argument in Brushbacks and Knockdowns---and I think, on the evidence available, that no catcher in baseball history ever made for more winning pitching staffs, whose members had a) not otherwise been winners on other clubs, or b) won to far higher percentages than with other catchers, than did Yogi Berra.

In a way, it's almost unfair to Johnny Bench. He came up with a club which bedeviled by a) near chronic arm trouble, or, b) deep enough seasoning (think Bob Purkey pre-Bench and Tom Seaver as Bench approached the beginning of his career sunset) or too-poor seasoning (think Joey Jay, pre-Bench, a good but undercooked commodity before the Reds acquired him for 1961; his acquisition basically made the 1961 pennant possible, and Jay  rolled up back-to-back 22-win seasons before hitting his very steep downslope) by the time they became Reds. Bench handled a couple of pitchers who did better with him as their catcher than with others, but not as many as Berra handled. Seaver aside, the best pitcher Bench handled was probably Jim Maloney---whose best seasons rolled up right before Bench came up, anyway---on yet another series of Cincinnati teams who could pound the living daylights out of the ball but who didn't pitch up to their offence. (One of these years, it might make for a fascinating analysis as to just why it was that the Reds from the 1960s through the 1990s developed so many pitchers---Gary Nolan, Mel Queen, Don Gullett and company---whose careers were compromised by so much arm trouble.)

Damn near every Yankee pitcher who had Yogi Berra as his catcher (and who wasn't named Whitey Ford) had a) a far better record than he had with any other catcher in their careers, or b) a winning record with Yogi and an even or losing record with anyone else. And the Yankees ran through an awful lot of pitchers in the Stengel years, homegrown and acquired (some familiar names: Allie Reynolds, Eddie Lopat, Vic Raschi, Johnny Sain, Don Larsen, Bob Turley, Jim Konstanty, Ewell Blackwell, Bobby Shantz, and Tommy Byrne). AAs perverse as it might sound to the naked ear, the Yankees had what Barra ascribed: the best pitching in the 1950s American League without having the best pitchers, Ford aside. Sounds to me like an impeccable argument (in hand with Stengel being only half kidding when he frequently called Berra "my assistant manager") for ninety percent of the game being mental over the other half being physical, if you ask me.

No catcher in major league history---not Bench (who also had one Hall of Famer to work with in his career, Tom Seaver, who was already the best pitcher in baseball for several years before Bench got to work with him), not Roy Campanella, not Bill Dickey, not Mickey Cochrane, not Ivan Rodriguez, not Mike Piazza, not even Gary Carter or Carlton Fisk---has that extensive a resume of improved pitching staffs.

If you had to build a team you could win with, you'd be hauled off to the rubber room for not naming Berra and Bench as your catching staff. Johnny Bench is the greatest catcher who ever played the game . . . among those not named Yogi Berra.

A sacred cow is worth one thing---steak!

by Catbird on May 13, 2005 10:32 PM EDT reply actions  

yogi?
Sorry but I have to disagree with the selection of Yogi as the best. He was at times not even the starter on his own team. Plus if he had played for the Indians or Senators we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Where is Mario Soto when you need him?

by Caleb on May 14, 2005 5:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Yogi.
After a couple of seasons basically making his bones and finding his way, Yogi Berra became the Yankees' regular catcher in 1949 and stayed there through 1959, missing any time mostly because of periodic injuries, and mostly having no genuinely reliable backup to spell him until Elston Howard matured in the latter 1950s---and Howard wasn't anywhere near Berra's ability even as Yogi began to show his age. Berra became more of a part-time player only in 1962, and between 1960 and the end of his career (he retired as a player after 1963) he played very competently in the outfield. (He was at least as serviceable an outfielder as Bench was a first or third baseman in Bench's lattermost seasons.)

Aside from the fact that "if he had played for the Indians and the Senators we wouldn't be having this discussion" is a very lame rebuttal---ordinarily, we do not focus, as another gentleman has reminded us, on what a man would have done or could have done or should have done or might have done but on what he did done, and why would you hold it against a man that he played for, never mind had that significant a role for, all those pennant winners and Series rings?---half the argument is actually false: We just might be having this discussion if Yogi Berra had caught for the Indians and not the Yankees, at least the Indians of 1950-56. Those Indians, with better pitchers, finished second in all but two of those seasons (they finished fourth, in 1950; they won the pennant, of course, with their 111-win 1954), and it is not necessarily idle speculation to wonder whether a Berra behind their dish would have made the key difference to them---and this was a pitching staff that had a still-serviceable Bob Feller, two more future Hall of Famers (Bob Lemon, Early Wynn), and one of the more underappreciated fourth men of his time (Mike Garcia). But the Indians' regular catcher in those years was Jim Hegan, a fine defencive backstop but not Berra behind the plate and even far less so at the plate.

Saying Johnny Bench is second only to Yogi Berra is not exactly insulting to Johnny Bench, particularly when the margin is as slim between these two men as you could imagine between any two other players at any other position, and particularly since these two leave their fellows well enough behind. But it requires evidence, and not suggestions of playing for the Indians or the Senators, to bring Yogi Berra back enough pegs, when the evidence and (sorry, but yes they do count, particularly factoring the handling of pitching) nine pennants and seven World Series rings as his team's regular catcher, place Berra precisely as I do place him.

A sacred cow is worth one thing---steak!

by Catbird on May 15, 2005 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

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