Big Joe
reading the Joe Morgan story JD linked to reminds me of why I'm so conflicted about Joe as a baseball figure. He seems like such a nice, honorable, and decent man. I'm too young to remember him as a player, but my dad worships him and I've become quite acquainted with his career. Awesome stuff.
BUT...I heard Joe Morgan say this on the radio yesterday and now it seems he's typed it in an ESPN chat:
Hopefully this will be a better week for all of us, and baseball will help us move forward in the aftermath of what happened at Virginia Tech. It has not been a good start to the week. I'm concerned because my two daughters will be going to school two years from now. It's almost like the Imus situation; kids and people going to get educated and being hit from the outside with negative comments and threates on their lives. I guess if you're not safe in college, where are you safe?
I don't for a second think that Joe thinks that the Imus things is as bad as the VT shooting and he probably meant the "atmosphere of vulnerability" on a college campus, but it is the sort of soft-headed analogy that often makes him an embarassment to listen to on any topic. And even more of an embarassment for people who carry water for him as a legendary analyst--not BALLPLAYER--analyst.
I teach on a college campus. I spent yesterday discussing the shooting with my class of college freshman. Yesterday reminded of a year ago when my campus was hit by the "Pit Driver" incident in which, blessedly, no one was killed.
Then, as yesterday, I was shocked by how quickly the students were ready to apologize for or justify the violent actions of an evil person. "He was probably made fun of." or "Maybe people said stuff that hurt his feelings and he felt like he wanted to back at them."
When Joe or Obama or any other public figure links mean or offensive comments to atrocious violence, it helps muddy the waters on what we actually mean by the word "violence." And thereby a powerful word loses some of its distinction, and the distinction becomes less clear. Imus' words do not have the same reality as bullets, but many seem ready to think so. Kids are encouraged to forgive and "try to understand" immediately without going through the proper emotions that make true forgiveness possible: anger, disdain, regret, etc. In fact, these emotions are characterized as unhealthy. On the contrary...
Maybe this is a pointless diary. But it's been weighing on me the last two days. I should probably stary my own blog for crap like this. Sorry.
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I disagree with anything...
Also, I'd like to say that I think Joe Morgan and larry miller are the best announce team in all of sports...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions
Jon Miller?
I fully understand all the Joe love from 'Natians and I don't begrudge yall for it. He's a lcoal hero and, unlike other local sports figures, not a scumbag. As a analyst, though, he's simply incompetent.
I actually had fun imagining how Joe would respond to the question of whether he works with Jon Miller or Larry Miller:
"Well, first of all, I'm not really sure who I've worked with these past few years because I haven't really been watching the spot directly to my left that much. So I can't really say. But anytime, you've got a ballgame, you're gonna want someone there to tell you what's going on. And you're gonna want the best person for that job, whoever that might be. I'm not sure."
by Man Mountain on Apr 18, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I couldn't remember for sure his first name...
My Bad...
But I do think he's a great announcer.
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Larry Miller
Larry Miller

2007 Reds Threat Level is Yellow
Morgan the analyst
But Joe the analyst is insufferable. I used to always read his chats before they went behind the curtain at ESPN. FJM still does a good job of pointing out their absurdities, but I really hated his non-answers on everything.
Q: Joe, who do you see winning the AL East this year?
Joe: There are a lot of teams in the AL East. It's too early to make predictions. The Yankees are always good, as are the Red Sox. Toronto has done some things and Tampa has a lot of good young players. And you can't forget Baltimore. The team that wins the most baseball games is going to come out of that division.
Morgan
I haven't heard Obama's comments, but I may have to check them out now.
Obama:
"That was written in 1968--almost 40 years ago," Obama said of Kennedy's remarks. "We haven't made much progress."
Within hours of the shooting at Virginia Tech, Obama threw away his stump speech and talked about the tragic events.
Monday's massacre, the biggest mass shooting in American history, will prompt "all kinds of discussion," Obama said--about crime, violence, gun control, and campus security, among other topics. "But I hope there will be some discussion of violence in all its forms. . . . [In American culture] we glorify it, encourage it, ignore it . . . . It's heartbreaking. And it has to stop."
Violence, and the callousness Americans have for the suffering of victims of violence, poverty, and oppression, is ultimately "rooted in our incapacity to recognize ourselves in each other--not understanding that we're all connected fundamentally as people," Obama said. "Those who may not look like me, talk like me, worship the same God I do, are nonetheless worthy of respect and dignity. . . . [But] at some fundamental level, we're still trapped in this insane belief that we can impose our wills on each other."
Part of the reason things are still as bad as they were 40 years ago, Obama said, in terms of poverty, lack of opportunity, broken health care and education systems, and "a war that never should have been authorized and never should have been fought" (his biggest applause line) is that "we haven't been as engaged as we should be."
"We've given up. We look inward. . . . This same disengagement makes us tolerate violence." He made a pitch for overcoming cynicism and restoring " a sense that we have a mutual responsibility to care for each other."
I don't get it...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, meant to highlight
There's the "verbal violence" of Imus.
There's "the violence of men and women who have worked all their lives and suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them because their job is moved to another country."
So,,,
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
While we are at it...
All of those people are grieving. Having to wait in line for an hour for security did not help them....
George Bush has no ties to the university, and his being there only made it harder on the people that were truly effected...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You're absolutely right
by pw on Apr 18, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
but..
Is it not possible that he actually cares and has genuine compassion?
Causing more grief to people in mourning?
I see it as a PR move...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Good enough for me...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Do Share...
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
My story
They talked for a short time and then Bush continued down the line. My brother-in-law was so excited he ran to his car to call his wife. She was not doing well with her battle and just was too weak to come out of the house. He called and could not get an answer. He called back and still no answer. He called again and her very weak trembling, crying voice answered. When he asked what was wrong she said "you won't believe who just called me" When the President got to Air Force One he had someone find the number and he personally called her to wish her well and to encourage her in her battle with cancer.
A few weeks later, on the Friday prior to the election, Bush was back in town and he called the house. My brother in law didn't get the phone before it went to the answering machine and was amazed to hear Bush's voice. He picked up and was faced with telling the President that she had lost her battle with breast cancer earlier in the week. The President talked to, comforted and consoled him for several minutes while the recording was still going.
He told my brother in law that they would continue to pray for him and their surviving children. The next Spring he called again and invited my brother in law and his children to come to DC for the White House Easter Egg Roll., which they attended.
While I do not agree with the President on many issues I will never question his genuine compassion for people.
my pleasure
"a war that never should have been ...
Evil?
by pw on Apr 18, 2007 4:35 PM EDT reply actions
i'm going to respond to this later
I hope the whole country talks about this. And not in that superficial "oh, it's sad, i'll go back to my regular life now" kind of way. Dialogue is healthy. Ignoring problems is not!
Some thoughts
As someone who deals with words all day, I'm sensitive to the ways in which our language is impoverished when a word loses its distinction. At one point, not so long ago, a writer would have been able to describe "love" in any number of terms familiar to a general reader--varying in degree, intensity, intention, etc. By the same token, a English poet writing in the 10th century would have had about 100 common words at his disposal to describe a "violent" act.
In education policy primers now, it is not uncommon to see a tiff between two kids in the sandbox described as "violence" as though it were the same word used to describe a car-bombing on CNN. That lack of distinction removes, although slowly and subtly, important notions of degree and importance.
I referred to Obama not to single him out--all politicians speak in these sorts of terms now--but just to point out the latest permutation of the "quiet violence" idea. Politicians are a good bellwhether for what buzz words are attractive to the populace at large. I happened to catch his comments.
As to the shooter receiving mental help/intervention, I am quite sympathetic to the admin. over at Tech; it seems they did all they could and a little more. I've had emotionally troubled students every single semester--some worse than others--and you try to find out what's going on and give them information about counciling and encourage them to go BUT ultimately they're adults and you can't make them go. That's the big difference between getting them at 17 and getting them at 18; as much as we are wont to infantilize college students, legally, they're adults.
Food for thought
Having devoted 4 years of my life to studying African American history, I also believe that "violence" is a perfectly acceptable term in reference to bigotry, hatred, and discrimination, particularly when African Americans themselves use that word. I find this acceptable because for scores of years, brutal violence, the violence that struck on Monday, existed behind those words.
I don't think it's wise to dissociate violence from bigotry, because there is a danger of future generations becoming unaware of the connection between the two. I feel this is a far greater danger than a slight muddying of a particular word.
Consider the outpouring of domestic and international shock and grief. Ultimately, it has showed me that the actions matter more than the labels we attach to them. I don't think what happened on Monday is any less horrific because someone like Obama used "violence" in another context.
I do worry about media coverage, and if it gets any worse than it does, then perhaps I would tend to agree with you. Major network news has devolved into nothing more than a corporate-approved checklist of buzzwords.
So I agree with your overall premise. If we reduce the number of words used in dialogue, it will be harmful. However, since the meaning of "violence" itself is readily indicated by its context, then I don't think we have to worry as much.
Finally, I don't think you should be surprised that people are reacting to you lucidly and with civility, because that is exactly how you treat everyone else. In the words of Ali G, respeck.
words
number of words
You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming...
PS
OK, if you can't intervene,
by pw on Apr 18, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Unworkable!
by pw on Apr 19, 2007 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
We need to keep working on it...
Through Jesus Christ.
I'm not removing responsibility from the young man who pulled the trigger. I'm saying that we Christians haven't done as well as we need in telling people about love. Often, people hear that either they bow down to a god they can't see or they're doomed to eternal damnation. They need to hear about a God who loves them, who would have died for them if they were the only person on the planet. And we need to show them that kind of love.
I work for Fellowship of Christian Athletes. We work with all kids, using the platform of athletics to reach out. We're in high schools, middle schools and colleges -- public and private -- every day and what we do is well within the law. I see kids who experience unimaginable hurt in their lives. Reaching out to them is incredibly rewarding. It's lifechanging --for them, for me and for our student-athletes and coaches.
I enjoy the discussion on this forum. I've never personally met any of you (that I am aware, at least), but hope to change that. No, I'm not going to hand you a Bible and commence to preaching. I simply enjoy hanging out with Reds fans. You appear to be a fun, thoughtful bunch.
And, for the record, I like Joe Morgan. Having grown up with the Big Red Machine, I'm sure that colors my view, but I think he'd be a heck of a manager.
by Thundering Turtle on Apr 19, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Respect
Having said that, I speculate that a lot of this kid's trouble might have been the result of mental illness. The best, most loving messages in the world can be obliterated by psychosis. We as a culture need to work much harder to extend our understanding, love, and respect to those who suffer from such debilitating illnesses. The history of our treatment of the mentally ill is abominable, and it needs much more compassion today. I belive that only in this way can we ever hope to prevent such needless tragedies, and save not only the victims, but the perpetrators themselves.
I know what you mean.
I do appreciate the respect you offered. Sometimes when a Christian mentions his faith, the next thing he has to do is duck.
Even if we take out of the Bible the virgin birth, Christ rising from the dead and all the miracles, it's a tremendous book of principles for us to live by.
Being a Marshall guy, I can relate a bit to the massive loss of life from one campus. Still, it's difficult to fathom. My prayers and thoughts go out to VT.
by Thundering Turtle on Apr 20, 2007 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions
First of all MM, thanks for this forum/diary.
Secondly Man Mountain (and I am hoping to not come across as facetious here) as you are the professional wordsmith and RR's resident belletrist who "sensitive to...our language" has created this diary about words and their sometimes well-intended uses and their sometimes misbegotten meanings, I would ask you to share more of your perspective on how we (and by "we" I mean anyone anywhere engaged in the conversation in any way) should refer to "what happened at Virginia Tech" (as Joe described it). After some quick thoughts I (above) used "these events" but that was only because I was hoping to initially focus attention on my gratitude and not on my opinions on the matter. But "these events" have been referred to (in print and on television) as "senseless killings," a murderous rampage," and here at Red Reporter as "the tragedy," "this shooting," and "violent actions of an evil person." All of these (and surely many other) descriptions are fitting in different contexts but I sense that we may quickly be settling on something similar to kind old Joe's innocuous "what happened at Virginia Tech" when frankly I'd rather hear a few more people call it "some fucked up shit" for another week or so.
I'm asking you all to pay attention and please keep posting in this diary (as Daedalus said, "Dialogue is healthy.") Let me know who uses what words to describe "what happened." Nearly everyone is bound to have an opinion on the various indecorous details of "the events" and that's fine. That's gonna happen whether its a true national tragedy or it's Janet Jackson's tit. But personally I'm interested in how we shape Aprils' remaining discourse and dialogue. What did your mom call it? Your grandma? Your Republican brother? Your Libertarian neighbor? Your taxi driver? Your pastor? (Was it the same term at the beginning of the sermon as it was at the end?) What do you call it?
I got more (including some thoughts on my man Joe Morgan and a hopefully inspiring post-Columbine story that I like to share with educators) but it's late and I don't want to be known as "Longest Comment Ever" Alan.
by Alan @ Red Reporter on Apr 19, 2007 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
"Longest Comment Ever" Alan
Great post.
I was thinking last night about this diary and while this is a baseball blog it has become more than that over the last year or so. It is a community unto itself. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for that. I know it helps me in times like these to be able to talk, debate, and discuss with friends these things that are on all of our minds.
Man Mountain -
Thank you for being a wordsmith. You truly are a virtuoso who makes us stop and think about our writings and what the words really mean. Your students are fortunate to have you as their teacher.
Hey gang..
Peace.
by Alan @ Red Reporter on Apr 19, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
my mistake
Joe Morgan Rules!
by chandrathan on Apr 18, 2007 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Mourner in Chief
The thoughts above about Bush attending the services quickly brought to mind the criticism he once received for not attending the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq nor receiving the caskets at Dover Air Force base. His defenders claimed Bush wasn't the 'Mourner-in-Chief' yet those same words have been popping up all over the net since the tragedy.
So what's changed? You could cite logistical reasons (he can't pay tribute to every fallen soldier and it would be arbitrary to only honor some) or strategic reasons (appearing in Blacksburg doesn't 'embolden an enemy.' Or you can connect the dots through polling numbers and political calculations (it's not hard). I don't have any answers and am just noting the different positions.
I'm reminded of Helen Mirren's Queen Elizabeth lamenting the the public's desire for emotionalism has trumped a history of British stoicism. "I prefer to keep my feelings to myself. Foolishly I believe that was what the people wanted from their queen."

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