Rick Monday Loves Adam Dunn
No, just kidding, Monday apparently thinks Dunn strikes out too much.
I can't say I agree with this guy's politics, but he recognizes how valuable Adam Dunn is to the Reds, so he can't be all that bad:
Last week I endured three consecutive days of listening to awful Dodgers broadcaster Rick Monday slag on the Reds' Adam Dunn (the National League's Player of the Month in July) for striking out too damned much.[...]
What's more, while I was listening to the bag-eyed ghoul go on and on about Dunn's allegedly disastrous ponchados in that sing-songy wannabe Scully voice, I began remembering the professional ball of my youth, and ... well, didn't Rick Monday actually strike out all the damned time, too?
Did he ever. Monday, whose career high in RBI was 77, is 34th all-time in career strikeouts, with 1,513. He struck out so damned much that he finished in the league top 10 three different seasons in which he didn't even have 400 at-bats. On Dunn's last day in L.A., when Monday was going off on him, the Cincinatti slugger had 106 strikeouts in 336 at-bats. Monday, in 1978, had 100 in just 342.
Some broadcasters just don't seem to think about what they're saying, and the tragic thing is that many of their listeners don't take the time to think about what they're hearing.
I've never heard Rick Monday announce a baseball game, but he seems like a definite "pass" to me.
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Monday
dunn's strikeouts
There is no disputing that a high OBP and league leading homerun numbers are going to contribute to the offense. However, what level of contribution Dunn makes when you factor in EVERYTHING is certainly debatable - his contribution is certainly more than a Jason LaRue but equally certain it's LESS than the top hitters in the game who not only hit for POWER but ALSO hit for AVERAGE.
The crux of some of the strikeout criticism is that IF he would more often use left field and not look to pull EVERYTHING out of the park than Dunn's overall production would increase because he'd raise batting average, become better rbi guy, become better situationally and yes.......decrease strikeouts.
Of course, this is all easy to dismiss when he is locked in on a hot streak. But just wait.......he'll cool off. He always does. And when a guy is NOT locked in is when good fundamentals and more versatility become your best friends............
Michael & Dunn
Michael, part of the reason that people argue with you so much is that you make statements like this, but you don't back it up with any evidence. Every study that I have seen shows very liitle correlation between strikeouts and runs scored. If you've got evidence to dispute this, I'd be interested in seeing it.
"And when a guy is NOT locked in is when good fundamentals and more versatility become your best friends............"
I guess that just depends on what you consider to be fundamental. I consider plate discipline to be the most important fundamental skill for a hitter because even when he is not locked in, he still won't make as many outs on bad pitches. A hitter that is slumping is going to slump when he swings the bat. What difference does it make if you are "fundamentally" sound at hitting the ball to left field when you are not seeing the ball well enough to control where you hit it? By your definition, Sean Casey is fundamentally sound, but he still grounds out to second base more than anyone on the team.
strikeouts vs. runs scored
That has to be the most ridiculous study I have ever seen.
I'll spell it out for those who came late. NOONE would ever contend that strikeouts would correlate with runs scored to the same degree that OBP, SLG, BA etc. etc..would - NOONE. Those could be considered PRIMARY determinants. Things like strikeouts, situational hitting, team speed, etc...would all fall into the realm of SECONDARY determinants. (or major and minor buckets if you prefer those terms). The secondary determinants can be very important situationally/at the margin when it comes to Wins vs. Losses in a game but noone would ever contend that they would have same impact on Total Runs scored in season as the the PRIMARY determinants.
In that study any correlation between strikeouts would have been smothered because of the fact that the major determinants (OBP, SLG, BA etc..) were not held constant.... ie. NOT "all other things equal".
I did my own little study to show the absurdity of the strikeout study. In my study I put errors on one axis and Runs Against on the other axis. I looked at 20 years of the national league. Guess what I found. NO CORRELATION. Does that mean that errors don't matter? Does that mean that errors don't impact Runs Against? Of course not. It only shows that quality of pitching (PRIMARY determinant) is far more important and since pitching was not held constant any impact of errors was concealed by pitching influence.
Questions
"The secondary determinants can be very important situationally/at the margin when it comes to Wins vs. Losses in a game but noone would ever contend that they would have same impact on Total Runs scored in season as the the PRIMARY determinants."
I'm not sure what you mean here. Aren't total runs scored very important to individual Wins and Losses? Total runs is just an aggregate of each individual game. If you don't score in the individual games, you won't have a lot of total runs overall, right?
I understand stuff better with examples. Maybe you could give me an example that would explain it better.
In that study any correlation between strikeouts would have been smothered because of the fact that the major determinants (OBP, SLG, BA etc..) were not held constant.... ie. NOT "all other things equal".
I'm not sure how you can hold everything constant. If you made OBP, SLG, BA all constant wouldn't you have to make runs constant since they correlate so high to runs? I'm not a math guy, so please excuse my ignorance. Again, maybe an example would help me understand.
"Does that mean that errors don't matter? Does that mean that errors don't impact Runs Against? Of course not. It only shows that quality of pitching (PRIMARY determinant) is far more important and since pitching was not held constant any impact of errors was concealed by pitching influence."
This is the big thing that I don't get. If errors (or strikeouts) don't correlate to runs allowed (or scored) because there is something that is far more important, then aren't you just nit-picking about strikeouts? If a team (or player) is really good at things that correlate to runs, then why does it matter that they aren't that good at things that don't correlate that highly? Aren't we just arguing over a small amount of runs?
And how do we factor in the fact that asking a player to change his approach may affect the things that he is clearly good at? Should he sacrifice skils that are highly correlative to runs in order to be better at things that are less correlative?
Michael, your point of view is different that just about any on the net. I'm just trying to understand it better.
questions questions...
First off, no disputing OBP, SLG, BA all correlate highly with aggregate runs scored. Call those PRIMARY determinants.
You could I believe conduct more meaningful strikeout study by looking at strikeouts vs. runs for groups of teams who lets say have similar team OPS. Example: Reds, Astros, Mets all have average team OPS of ~.700. Lets say Reds score 900 runs, Astros score 950 and Mets score 1000. Here would be good opportunity to see impact of some of the SECONDARY determinants of Run Scoring. How could Mets have scored 100 more runs than the Reds eventhough they had equivalent team OPS? You could then look at team speed, "clutch" or RISP hitting, strikeouts, solo homers vs. multi-run homers etc... etc..... likely these attributes would give you some answers. With OPS held constant you may even uncover some correlations. For example, you may find a correlation between Team batting avg. with RISP and run scoring or even # of strikeouts and run scoring.
- - - - - - -
As for your your point about errors to Runs Against and Strikeouts to Runs and whether I'm "nitpicking" on strikeouts.
This gets back to the point that the secondary determinants can be important "situationally/at the margin" and can swing win/loss totals.
First off I'm aware and understand the Pyth Thm of baseball and understand how well you can predict team wins/losses based solely on aggregate Runs and Runs Against. HOWEVER, as with any predictive formula there will be teams who do relatively better than formula would predict and teams who do relatively worse.
I think this is what we're talking about when dealing with the SECONDARY determinants of Run Scoring. What attributes correlate with TIMELY run scoring? How does a team increase its chances of doing relatively better than the Pyth Thm of baseball might predict??
No matter how many runs a team scores or allows a certain number of games in the year will come down to one run games where one or two runs at the margin can swing game to win or loss. Also, in the playoffs year in and year out we see "little things" becoming important in playoffs. Here a one run game and its outcome can swing series. So question is NOT what attributes correlate highest with AGGREGATE Run Scoring? Instead question would be: What attributes correlate with ability to score ONE or TWO runs in a given inning from any part of batting order when needed?
When two good teams play each other both teams can score runs. Which team is better at scoring them when its 4-4 in the 9th?
A team full of sluggers may get you a large number of aggregate runs over a whole season with lots of mediocre pitching mixed in during season. But what hitters are best able to score runs off TOP QUALITY pitching when its 3-3 in 9th inning in the playoffs?
An attempt
I may have screwed this up, but let me explain what I did.
I took your idea, Michael, and tried to see what results it gave. I took every team from the last 15 years (1990-2004) and made a spreadsheet with their OPS, Ks, and Runs Scored. I only looked at Ks because I don't the situational numbers for each team handy. I then grouped each team into groups based on OPS in .050 point increments so that teams under .700 were group 1, .701-.750 were group 2, .751-.800 were group 3, and .800+ were group 4 (the min OPS was .636 and the max was .851). I then did a Pearson correlation calculation between Ks and RS for each group (using the excel function PEARSON with Ks as the independent variable and RS as the dependent variable). That gave me these results:
GROUP = # of teams = r
group 1 = 48 = .21
group 2 = 192 = .41
group 3 = 134 = .64
group 4 = 54 = .60
I didn't have time to get the graphs up on the web, but hopefully the numbers show what I believe is the conclusion that can be drawn. That is that teams that have a higher OPS tend to score more runs the more they strikeout. Obviously this doesn't mean that higher OPS teams should strikeout more, but more likely that strikeouts are a by-product of the things that high OPS teams do to score runs. So a team that hits a lot of home runs will tend to strikeout more often.
I'll be honest, I only understand some of what I did. My background is very unrooted in math, so if I made a mistake somewhere, somebody please point it out. But I think that it shows that strikeouts are not a bad thing, especially if you do lots of other good things too.
Re: Attempt
Let me counter with this:
To have the best team possible each player needs to come as close as possible to maximizing his contribution based on his individual potential. Take a few guys this year like Freel, Lopez and Randa. Arguably those 3 have have had years which are close to their potential. Given Freel's tools can we project him ever having much better a year? Maybe a little better but he's on base, hitting for avg., stealing, scoring, playing all postions...He has had solid, productive year and likely close to the maximum of what you can get from a Freel.
Now let's take Casey and Dunn. Arguably Casey needs to strikeout MORE. His slap singles are better than outs but I'd rather see him RAISE his strikeouts by 30 and in so doing replace 20 of those singles with 10 HRs and 10 doubles and in doing raise his overall productivity.
For Dunn his HRs and BBs are nice but I'd rather see him drop his strikeouts by 30 and in so doing use the whole field more, raise his average, improve his situational/rbi skills, "maybe" cost himself a couple homers (only maybe) and in doing all of this raise his overall productivity.
- - - - - - -
In economic terms, it's referred to as "input mix". You combine your available inputs to produce MAXIMUM output/productivity. There does exist an OPTIMAL "input mix". For Casey, his optimal mix of inputs likely includes more strikeouts. For Dunn it would be fewer strikeouts.
tag
More or less?
I'm sorry, but you've completely flipped what I said. I do not believe that extra base hits are the by-product of increased strikeouts. In fact, I believe the inverse. Strikeouts are the by-product of increased extra base hits.
Remember that the study started with groupings of OPS and went from there. So the assumption is that we already have the extra base hits. When we compared the Ks to runs, that was when we saw the correlation. (By the way, I checked the correlation over this time span between Ks and OPS and it was very small - like .03 if I recall correctly)
It's an important distinction because I think it is what says that you can't assume that a player can cut down on his strikeouts (or increase his strikeouts) and thereby change his hitting results. Sean Casey can try to hit more home runs, but that doesn't mean that he will hit more home runs. It probably means that he will strikeout more, which would likely drop his overall production because he will no longer be getting on base.
As the article that Red Menance posted at the bottom of the thread states, Dunn strikes out more because he gets deep in the count more. He has to do this because he has holes in his swing and so it is important for him to try to wait for his pitch. If he were to try to cut down on his strikeouts and replace them with more "situational hitting," you might see some improvement in batting average, but I doubt his strikeouts would drop and I have a feeling his home runs would drop because he is either going thave to alter his power swing or he is going to have to swing at pitches outside of his comfort zone.
I understand where you are going with the optimal mix, but your assumption is that we are not already getting the optimal mix of Dunn's skills. He has improved every year in the Majors except in the dismal 2003 when Boone et al were constantly tinkering with his swing. His numbers are getting better as he learns to handle more of the strike zone. Asking him to go away from that strategy may cause him to drop in production like it did in 2003. You may consider that a shortcoming in his game, but I don't. Not when he is producing like he does.
If all things were equal...
Let's take a step back. Don't we have both ends of the hitting-type spectrum playing for the 2005 Reds?
On one side we have player #1 who hits for a high average and strikes out at a low rate, but with not much power or strike-zone patience. I'll call him Sean C. Wait, that's too obvious, let's call him S. Casey.
Then we have player #2 who hits for a poor average and strikes out a lot, but with a lot of power and a high walk rate. We all know who that is.
Combine the best of both worlds and you get Pujols. Combine the worst and you get Neifi Perez. But we're not Dr. Frankenstein, and we can't mix and match whichever pieces we like - we take what we have.
Firstly, isn't it clear (both to the eyes and the brain) that player #2 has been much more valuable this year?
Secondly, if we forced player #2 to swing all the time, would he get better or worse? These things don't happen in a vacuum, and a change like that would have some big ripple effects. I contend he'd get worse, because that would reduce his walk rate, increase the groundball outs (because he's now swinging at pitches he can't hit as well), and any gain in homeruns would be offset by the ones he'd lose by not getting deep in the count and waiting for a pitch he can drive. He'd strike out less, but those strikeouts don't magically turn into hits.
Strikeouts Don't Matter
For example I googled the statement strikeouts don't matter and found this article: Link
Seems to be what you are talking about. However their conclusion wasn't that it didn't matter, rather its not as important as everyone wants to claim.
Errors v. Runs against.
You found a correlation factor of 0? Or did you find some small factor that you made zero? I redid your study. I didn't come to nearly the same conclusion as you did. I found a direct correlation between E and RA. 
baseball prospectus article
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2617
I'll provide link to my spreadsheet later when I can which shows my study. I gathered 20 years of data from baseball-reference.com for national league west and ran correlations. No, I didn't get 0 correlations but I got below the statistically significant level (same as baseball prospectus study got with its Ks to Runs study where they concluded no correlation).......
edit
overstate?
that's the quote......and you say I "overstate".??
You say you're "pretty sure" I overstate? Well, I'll consider myself warned about the next thing you're "pretty sure" about...
Strikeouts Don't Matter
All outs suck, so how can a conclusion that says strikeouts are an out every be coming to the conclusion that strikeouts don't matter.
Strikeouts
Here's Nate Silver of BaseballProspectus
June 1, 2005
Strikeouts and hitter projections
Here's a secret: strikeouts are a good thing for a young power hitter.
That quote is mine, from a chat session about four weeks ago. It's pretty tempting to come up with punchy, ill-considered one-liners like that when in the midst of a chat, and indeed the comment triggered plenty of e-mails, as well as a persuasive counter-argument by Rich Lederer. So let me try and explain myself a little bit more thoroughly.
My comment was based on something I discovered when revising PECOTA a couple of years ago. Specifically, I found that when everything else is held equal, higher strikeout rates have a somewhat positive predictive effect on power output. For example, the regression equations I use for PECOTA suggest that--all else being equal--45 extra strikeouts in the previous year are "worth" about one additional home run in the upcoming year. The effect is not enormous, but it's there, and it's one reason why folks like Adam Dunn and Hee Seop Choi and Wily Mo Pena tend to get such favorable PECOTA projections.
Strikeout rates also have an inverse predictive effect on base hits, and consequently on batting average (to be a bit more specific, a player who strikes out more can be expected to have somewhat fewer singles; there is no discernable impact on his predicted rate of doubles or triples). This is to be expected. While hitters' batting averages on balls in play do not exhibit the same strong regression to the mean that pitchers' BABIPs do, hitter BABIP is at least somewhat a matter of luck, and you can't get lucky if you don't put the ball in play.
Finally, all else being equal, strikeouts have a positive predictive effect on walk rate, as both strikeouts and walks tend to result from going deep into the count.
Further complicating things is that these general principles can also have some quirky effects depending on the particular characteristics of the player. For example, PECOTA predicted Albert Pujols, a hitter who does not strike out very much, to have a batting line this year of .334/.419/.633. If we go back in the system and double Pujols' previous strikeout rates, PECOTA instead comes up with a projection of .325/.411/.633. Pujols' expected BA has declined by about 10 points; he makes up for some of this with a 10-point increase in his expected isolated power and a slight increase in his "isolated walk rate," but the overall effect on his value is negative. PECOTA is happy, in other words, that Pujols does not strike out very much.
On the other hand, if we perform a similar exercise for Adam Dunn, we get the opposite result. Dunn, with his actual strikeout rate, had a PECOTA projection of .270/.395/.562. If we cut Dunn's historic strikeout rate in half, PECOTA instead retrieves a projection of .276/.390/.539. The slight increase is batting average is not worth the significant declines in walk rate and isolated power, and Dunn's overall projection is notably worse. PECOTA is happy that Dunn does strikeout often.
This stuff is complex. PECOTA is not just using the regression equations I've discussed above, but also a complicated system of adjustments based on comparable players. In fact, the whole motivation for PECOTA is to identify certain player typologies, and to understand how these player typologies progress over time. A player with the Pujols typology...
· High batting average
· Moderate walk rate
...will develop better with a lower strikeout rate, but a player with the Dunn typology ...
· Low batting average
· High walk rate
...would prefer a higher strikeout rate.
What in the hell is going on here?
What I think is going on--bear with me here--is that all great hitters can be categorized more or less into one of two typologies:
Early-Count Hitters: These hitters have extremely quick bats, excellent plate coverage, and will not take many pitches, especially for strikes. They tend to have very high batting averages, moderate-to-strong isolated power, moderate walk rates and low strikeout rates. They also tend to be reasonably good athletes, often playing premium defensive positions. Examples include Vladimir Guerrero, Joe DiMaggio, Derek Jeter and George Brett.
Late-Count Hitters: These hitters have outstanding-pitch recognition skills. Rather than force the issue, they wait for the pitcher to make a mistake with the pitch type or location they find most favorable. These hitters hit for moderate batting averages, strong or very strong isolated power, high walk rates and high strikeout rates. They tend to be big and bulky and slow. Examples include Jim Thome, Mark McGwire and Reggie Jackson.
To summarize:
Typology BA ISO BB Rate K Rate Speed
Early-Count Hitters Very High Moderate-High Moderate Low Moderate-High
Late-Count Hitters Moderate Very High High High Low-Moderate
What I think is going on is that the closer a hitter is to one of these idealized typologies, the better he is likely to do. Vladimir Guerrero, for example, doesn't make any "sense" with a high strikeout rate, since his hitting approach involves swinging at pitches that lesser hitters wouldn't dare dream of attacking. If Guerrero wasn't phenomenally good at actually making contact with these pitches, his approach would not work nearly as well. Conversely, a hitter like Jim Thome wouldn't make any sense with a lower strikeout rate. Because Thome does have some holes in his swing, he needs to work the pitcher and the count, until he gets a pitch to his liking, which he will then hit very, very far. High strikeout rates and high walk rates are a necessary consequence of this approach, since he will go deep into so many counts. (I think it's important to note that under this theory, a hitter like Thome isn't "choosing" to take a lot of walks. The walks, rather, are a beneficial side effect of the way in which he finds it most natural to go about getting base hits and home runs).
We might think of Guerrero as a "generalist", who hits lots of pitches pretty well, and Thome as a "specialist", who hits certain pitches extremely well. Of course, there are a very few hitters, like Barry Bonds and perhaps Pujols, who hit lots of pitches extremely well. Most everyone else has to settle.
The reason that I say that high strikeout rates may be a favorable sign for certain types of young hitters is because strikeout rates are an indicator of "count-working" ability. If we had more detailed data on things like called versus swinging strikes, and a hitter's performance on different counts, then we would not need to look at strikeout rates, and it seems unlikely that they would show up as a positive developmental sign in any way, shape, or form. But because we do not have this information on a wide-scale basis, we must use strikeout rate and walk rate as proxies.
One of the perverse consequences of this is that a specialist hitter, who may not hit certain types of pitches or pitches in certain parts of the strike zone especially well (e.g., a hitter "with some holes in his swing") will appear to benefit more from a higher strikeout rate than a generalist type of hitter. Hee Seop Choi must work the count and wait for his pitch because he can't hit certain pitches very well. That he's striking out a lot is an indicator that he is in fact going deep into many counts, which is helpful for him on balance, even though the strikeouts themselves are not favorable outcomes.
One thing it would be fascinating to study is how sensitive these different hitter typologies are to different pitcher typologies. My guess is that a hitter like Guererro will do relatively better against "good" pitchers, but relatively less well against "bad" pitchers, than a hitter like Thome, since Thome excels at hitting mistakes, and Gurerrero excels at hitting non-mistakes.
In any event, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I hope that it inspires further research, either on my part or someone else's.
Nice
That is awesome!
by TheDude @ Red Reporter on Aug 5, 2005 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Dodgers fans
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/08/bargaining_with.php

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