Two Ugly Words in a Small Market Team's Vocabulary: Service Time
As our good friends at MLBTradeRumors have meritoriously compiled (and reported, obviously), the issue of service time among top-prospects is one of the larger, more important topics on the minds of GMs this time of year.
The Reds are fortunate enough to have a top Catching prospect in Devin Mesoraco. If you were Walt Jocketty, would you keep him in AAA until late-May to have him under control for an additional year? Would you sign Pudge Rodriguez to split time with Hanigan until then?
Is this precisely why the Reds signed Dioner Navarro?
Hmm...Votto window...
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The Navarro idea you floated is intriguing.
Hanigan could carry the load for the first couple months, with Navarro spelling him, and it might not be all that different, in terms of offensive value, than an even split of Meso and Hanny (if Meso has growing pains). It will probably be a tough sell for the fanbase, though, if Meso tears it up in Goodyear and doesn’t break camp with the team.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
an extremely tough sell.
I guess the Reds conceivably picked up a little more leeway than they otherwise would have had by Mez not tearing the cover off the ball during his call-up last season.
Several things are at work here. First, if you’re truly trying to save up money any way that you can in order to launch a massive bid for Votto, allowing a player to be a Super 2 doesn’t exactly make a lot of sense. That said, if you’re “all-in” during the Votto window, sending out a rookie catcher doesn’t make a ton of sense, either (in David Schoenfeld’s ESPN chat today, the fact that no team has won a WS with a rookie SS and rookie C getting the majority of starts).
I’m not sure what I’d do. If promoting the season to bring in additional ticket sales is the primary goal, it’d be a pretty miserable PR move to start the season with both Aroldis AND Mez in AAA, but maybe that’s just the most prudent thing to do.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 28, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
That fact from Schoenfield is pretty silly.
How many teams have had rookies play the majority of time (by number of PAs) at both shortstop and catcher in the same season? Once you have those teams, you need to look at how many teams would have won the World Series with a better shortstop and/or catcher. I can try to look up the number of teams in the modern era with both a rookie shortstop and catcher later, but it’ll probably be a few days before I get around to it.
"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto
Can't get enough of me here? I'm on Twitter.
by Grahamophone on Feb 28, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
If Rolen doesn't stay healthy/Fiasco doesn't stay productive and the outfield plays like it did in 2011 then
I don’t think there is much Cozart/Mesoraco will be able to do one way or the other.
"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto
Can't get enough of me here? I'm on Twitter.
by Grahamophone on Feb 28, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
G-Phone you hit nail on the head.
Rolen is key, but there’s just no way that he’ll be able to be the full time clean-up hitter and offensive leader that he once was. Fiasco may come into his own…hope so, but the jury is still out…way out.
Left field is still a hope and prayer, Stumps and Jay-bay have got to improve orthe G-Phone nail hit on the head will be a coffin nail.
But how is Meryl Streep ever an upset?
Chuck Srabbles
I don't think there's much question that Golem is much better than Dioner right now
And probably Pudge as well. If you’re assembling the best ML roster you can, Devin has to be on the team. The WS factoid is interesting but doesn’t change the analysis of Devin vs. Dioner. And since we’ll also have Hanigan, I’m not worried about a lack of veteran presence behind the plate.
FWIW
At the Reds Winter Caravan (in Columbus) Mesoraco was introduced by Thom as ‘the Reds starting catcher.’
I remember thinking, “Damn, I bet Hanigan wishes he would have shown up for this.”
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 28, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
For example,
Poor hitting catchers are the key to championships in the Windy City.
No team has won a WS in Chicago, EVER, with a catcher who had a better-than-average OPS+.
In fact, only once has a Chicago team won the World Series with EITHER a catcher or SS having a better-than-average OPS+.
Key words: base rate. Also, this.
"If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning."
So, the White Sox haven't
stats <20 years away from the 1800s don’t really count much
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
the point is
if you pick some odd subset of data (like all teams with simultaneous rookie SS and rookie C) without specifying how big that group is, then it’s pretty hard to evaluate the incredibleness of the particular outcome noted.
As Gramophone points out, the interestingness of this factoid depends on a critical piece of information: how many rookieSS & rookieC seasons are there total?
If there have only been a handful of such seasons (and there probably have, but I’m too lazy to look it up), then it’s not at all surprising that none of them have won a WS.
"If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning."
Only 4 WS teams have ever had a pitcher throw 100 MPH!
So it must be an obstacle to a team’s chances!
Yeah, that factoid is useless as far as divining any meaning for the Reds (or anyone else).
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I don't think it's useless at all.
Having two rookies in the two most important defensive positions is unprecedented for a reason.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Mar 1, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see what being a rookie has to do with their defense
I guess for Meso there is some effect with handling the pitchers.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I could see it being a factor
Infielders seem to have more trouble than outfielders adjusting to the speed of the ball in the big leagues.
Also…they’re supposed to be in charge (along with the CFer, who in charge of the OF). Might be difficult for a rookie to take control like they should.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Some of it is timing though
There were only 20 rookies that got 300 PA last year. 25 in 2010. 19 in 2009. There just aren’t a lot of rookies who get everyday starts in the first place, so coincidentally having 2 on the same team is not really that common.
Now that might be a detriment, but I don’t think it is necessarily one. Cozart is 26, so he’s not a typical rookie. Mesoraco is scheduled to split time. It’s not like the Reds are pinning their hopes strictly on two 21 year olds.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Mesoraco is listed as a San Diego player
We must have traded him along with Yonder.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Corky's Mustache would be my starting C
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
1) Dioner needs to be put on the 40. Not impossible, but would need to happen.
2) You’re trading Mesoraco’s age 31 season for his age 24 season. Is that really worth it?
3) Who the hell knows what’s gonna happen in 7 years? I’d like to think that the Reds have a better, more concrete, chance to win now then they may have by the time I’m in my thirties. You don’t build for the future with the right side of the field the Reds have now.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Feb 28, 2012 7:00 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
or the left side, for that matter
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Or left field for that matter
Or in the manager’s office to consistent…
But how is Meryl Streep ever an upset?
Chuck Srabbles
Meso24 vs. Meso31
Solid point. Very interesting.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 28, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'd pick age 31 season over age 24 season.
But does it matter when you can have both? Also, with the new CBA super-2 rules plus Meso’s service time in 2011, I’m not so sure the traditional end-of-May rule of thumb is accurate here.
by Brian B on Feb 28, 2012 7:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm tempted to say I'd rather have his 31 year than his age 24 year, too.
I guess there’s hope that Walt locks up Mez like he did with Bruce. With the trade of Grandal, it’s clear the Reds are committed to him, so maybe that’s their plan…play him now, and when he’s staring at being a Super 2 present him with a 6 year deal.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 28, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
It should be sometime around mid-year
I always felt the super-2 rule ended up hamstringing teams and was unfair to a youngster who was ready for the big leagues.
I realize this is only funny to me
because I found this gif by GIS’ing “very interesting gif”. And it’s silly!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 28, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
also only funny to you because the image does not show up for me
and when I try to view it, it says forbidden.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
I was literally typing that same thing when your post popped up
No one can see it but you Charlie Scrabbles!
I love baseball....I love the Reds. Let’s kick some ass this season! ~BigBabyBruce
Who is the first man to be dropped from the 40 man to make room for a suprise player?
Smith? Judy? Brackman?
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
probably a relief pitcher
Jordan Smith to the DL?
Though I still don’t understand why Villareal was added to the roster. Did they really think someone was going to take him via Rule 5?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I'm betting Smith.
He has the lowest upside of the three.
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Feb 29, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Where is this photo from?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Feb 28, 2012 8:53 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I'm going to assume
the clubhouse at the ST complex.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 28, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know, but Drew's chicken looks tasty.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 28, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking Jason Mraz
I love baseball....I love the Reds. Let’s kick some ass this season! ~BigBabyBruce
They're like twins
I love baseball....I love the Reds. Let’s kick some ass this season! ~BigBabyBruce
Jay Bruce look so skinny!!!!
I think he is going to go nuts this year.
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Feb 28, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
wonder what he's eating
I don’t see anything on his plate. Though that bottle looks like a ketchup bottle. Or maybe dressing?
Might be tough keeping his girlish figure, eating with the ever-scrawny Stubbs and Janish.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
yeah, I've seen that logo before
in Jamie Ramsey’s photos of the spring training complex.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
It's a strength and conditioning T-shirt
I have one from my friend at the Reds. She give me leftover shirts that the players don’t take.
Dirt Bikes!
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Mar 1, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
He looks skinny but he also looks like a seventeen year old Ethan Hawke.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 28, 2012 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Oh Dusty My Dusty!
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Feb 29, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
that's the cafeteria in Goodyer
#FantasyCamp
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
You went tto fantasy camp?
"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo
by Yossarian22 on Feb 28, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
I plan on going to the fantasy camp in my age 30 season
Hopefully a Reds’ scout will see me and I get signed to a minor league deal.
Teams always need 30 year old corner outfielders with below average contact, no power, negative defense, and average speed.
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
"Let's see here... speed.. speed.. speed.. Oh. Here it is.. 'average,' eh?.. YO! BROWNIE! Get a bat. You're leading off!"
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I said I am a corner outfielder
Dusty would never lead me off. I don’t play mid-INF or CF, therefore I am not eligble to hit 1st in a lineup created by Corey Patterson’s father-in-law.
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
"BROWNIE! Get your shitsocks in here! You're going back to the blog to just daydream how cool this would be."
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a camera
Bronson Arroyo is the consonant professional - John Teh Fay
by supergrover on Feb 29, 2012 6:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...to my eye
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
which lies I been hiding
I love baseball....I love the Reds. Let’s kick some ass this season! ~BigBabyBruce
anyone else disappointed that the "Cincinnati Strength" shirt
doesn’t have a ripped Mr. Redlegs?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
You can't always get what you, but if you try sometimes well you just might find you get what you need!
"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo
Sean Marshall has some hairy arms.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 28, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
He gets the hair he needs!
"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo
by Yossarian22 on Feb 28, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
You.
You watch what you say.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Feb 29, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Anthony Davis looks funny in that pic
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Mar 1, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So were the old ones
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
I'd be all for waiting until June for Mesoraco
They’re paying Navarro a lot of money to catch at AAA, you have to wonder if they’re considering this. You’d give up two months of Mesoraco for an extra year of him down the line, but I think Hanigan/Navarro can pick up the slack until then.
Respect my authoritah!
isn't Suck it, Dioner's contract only that big if he makes the majors?
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
To go along with this,
Doug Gray had a discussion today on his website, would you try to give Mesoraco an extension now, like the Rays did with Matt Moore? There’s some risk in doing it now, but if he lives up to his potential it could yield long-term savings. I’m not sure if this plan would entirely work, since they’re near their budget limit for this year. But, what do you guys think?
http://redsminorleagues.com/2012/02/28/tuesday-news-and-notes-43/"
Respect my authoritah!
Sal Perez
Is that insanely huge catcher:
Five years, $7 million is a steal, but I can’t see Mez going for a deal like that. He’s a first round draft pick and got a nice signing bonus. He doesn’t need money, and he probably is confident that he’s worth more than that, and will have his payday eventually.
And I’m not sure even the Rays would try to lock Mez up right now. They like to do that kind of thing, but as I recall, they only do it with players who have had some success in the big leagues. Might be in only a few games, but still, players who are kicking butt in the big leagues. Mesoraco kind of struggled, on offense and defense, in his (admittedly brief) callup. Remember when the announcers were wondering when he would ever throw anyone out? And, um, .180 BA, .586 OPS. I think there’s a non-zero chance he won’t have a lot of success in the big leagues. If the Reds were reluctant to lock up Votto, I can’t see them doing it with Mez.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
"Squatting next to Eddie Gaedel"
Sounds like a euphemism for something disgusting.
The gross and net result of it is that people who spent most of their natural lives riding iron bicycles over the rocky roadsteads of this parish get their personalities mixed up with the personalities of their bicycle as a result of the interchanging of the atoms of each of them and you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who are nearly half people and half bicycles…
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Feb 29, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
that reminds me
I gotta see if I have a photo of him while Sappelt was batting.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I would not give him an extension
too many can’t miss prospects never do jackshit.
"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo
Hey, Red Reporters! It's time to... RANK! YOUR! SHITS!
- jack-
- horse-
- bull-
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Horse---, ---socks, jack---,bull---
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 29, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
hmm.
pig—-, donkey—-, and my personal favorite…ape—-.
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 29, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I like...
-ass
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
oh ---, how could I forget
bat—-!
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 29, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Holy ----snacks
/alsoarcher’d
The gross and net result of it is that people who spent most of their natural lives riding iron bicycles over the rocky roadsteads of this parish get their personalities mixed up with the personalities of their bicycle as a result of the interchanging of the atoms of each of them and you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who are nearly half people and half bicycles…
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Feb 29, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
This animated female photo is ok
Side boobage!
Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today
When you found that pic and posted it I bet you had a
—eating grin?
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 29, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
That would be the dumbest thing on the face of the earth
Despite what Moneyball lovers love, the object of the game isn’t to maximize resources per se, it’s to win games. If Meso is one of the 2 best catchers on the roster he should be on the team; if not, he shouldn’t (unless we’re back to the 3 catcher thing).
Only 11 hitters from the first round of the ‘01 draft have played in 200 games; only 3 have been any good; from ’02, only 10 hitters have played in 200 games and only 4 have been any good. The odds of having a solid 7 year career, even for a first round pick, aren’t good.
What if Meso is destined to have David Wright’s career? While still active and certainly productive, his last 3 season don’t campare to his first 5. If the Reds have a chance to be special this year (and if Latos is as good as I think he is, I think they have a very real chance) why would you throw that away simply to maybe save money in 7 years on one player?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Agree'd
Well, except the part about it being the dumbest thing on the face of the earth. There are a few things dumber:
The gross and net result of it is that people who spent most of their natural lives riding iron bicycles over the rocky roadsteads of this parish get their personalities mixed up with the personalities of their bicycle as a result of the interchanging of the atoms of each of them and you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who are nearly half people and half bicycles…
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Feb 29, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
X
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
That cunty looking facial hair
is to hide the stretch marks, I’m sure.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 29, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The Reds will soon be entering the Devin Widow?
Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today
by obc2 on Feb 29, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Javin Cuatos Window!
It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 29, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
BTW, Steve Martin, y'all
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Feb 29, 2012 12:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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