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Early welcome to the 2012 season

Today is a mostly symbolic start to spring training, though there's often a very real focus on who's been prepping the longest and looking spry and sinewy. Early report wasn't always a time for zealous preparation and boasting about being in the best possible shape. I'm not sure whether you're supposed to be nostalgic about something that was probably bad for everyone involved, but if this were the first half of the 20th Century, you'd have scenes like:

PLAYER: "Just came in on the train, Dust-o. I'm horribly out of shape and the season is half-over."

DUSTY: "Here, have some whiskey to get the weight off. Pharmaceuticals and exercise haven't been invented yet."

The modern spring training is pretty regimented. We can thank better training and discipline (I'd wager more than PEDs) for better baseball. Was something lost with a year-round media cycle and scrutiny of players physiques? Maybe not, but it might have been more striking to watch the long journey from doughy, drunk and erratic in the spring to slightly less doughy, slightly less drunk and peak-performing in early autumn.

Speaking of transformation, the Reds' offseason change really seems to have brought springtime hope. As we wait for the first pictures of mass stretching, let's get in that spring state of mind. Oh, here they are now and there they are over there.

What to watch for:

  • How will Mat Latos (and better half Dallas Latos) take to the new team? There hasn't been a lot of publicized bad blood with Reds teams of late and it seems like a clubhouse with a lot of good feelings floating around. So it should be cool.
  • Does Aroldis Chapman look like he's doing starting pitcher warm-ups and stretches and is that even a thing? Is he wearing a jersey marked STARTING PITCHER?
  • Is Jeff Francis taking a lot of calls?
  • Tweets and photos involving Sam LeCure. His unbridled enthusiasm not only fills the Willis Void, but he's gradually becoming a Reds National Treasure. We've already gotten some good material, including this: "@matt_isaacs4: @mrLeCure #mastyboys is close, but massett, Marshall, madson and yourself should be #LeMastyboys" and this photo.
  • An off-the-cuff Corky Miller interview. He's one of the least likely to just pump out the platitudes. Some good interplay with LeCure can be expected.
  • Is Andrew Brackman throwing any pitches that could be described as "worst?" Along with Josh Judy, also on a major league deal, I'd expect him to get some early buzz - but it's not clear what chance either have of making the team.
  • Is Chris Heisey standing in background of photos taken with Ryan Ludwick?
  • What does it mean that Brett Tomko is trying out for the Reds and Mike Cameron retired today? Do we have to re-tally the points in the Griffey trade? Did someone just win a hyper-specific prop bet?

Star-divide

Suggested menu:

Salad: Spring greens, with small balls of mozzarella, hand-painted with stitching. Southwestern ranch dressing.

Wine: A Petaluma wine, in honor of Jonny Gomes

1st course: moutarde-drizzled hot dog and with non-artisanal bun (combine kraut, relish, ground beef reduction as needed)

Main course: Several of the more Tex-Mex items on the Skyline menu

Desert: Graeter's Ice Cream hand-glopped onto some frybread

Coffee: Maybe this?

Cocktail: Mint julep. Or tequila. Some agave nectar in there probably.

What they're saying about the Reds:

"The Reds are a lot like last year's Milwaukee Brewers, loading up on pitching to maximize their chances of winning with a star first baseman. It worked for the Brewers, who won the National League Central in Prince Fielder's final season in Milwaukee. It should work for the Reds, who control Joey Votto's contract only through 2013" -- The New York Times

Anticipation is building steadily for Latos' debut in a Cincinnati uniform. At 24 years of age and with a couple of excellent seasons already under his belt, the sky is the limit for him. For Reds fans, there is the hope that the club will have a legitimate ace at the top of the rotation for the first time in a couple of decades. Yes, there is reason for legitimate excitement in the Queen City. -- Chad Dotson, Redleg Nation

With Joey Votto and Mat Latos leading a talented group of twentysomething blue-chippers, Ryan Madson and Sean Marshall ready to close out games, a premium prospect like Devin Mesoraco poised to crash the lineup, and the rest of the division either potentially weakened (Cardinals, Brewers) or just weak (Pirates, Cubs, Astros), the Reds are being picked by many to win their second NL Central title in three years. It's a pretty damn defensible pick. -- Grantland

The Reds have made it very clear that they're going all-in this offseason, presumably in an effort to maximize their chances of winning a title before Joey Votto qualifies for free agency after the 2013 season. GM Walt Jocketty opened up the prospect vault to acquire Mat Latos and Sean Marshall, then landed what could potentially be the bargain of the offseason by signing Ryan Madson to a sweetheart one-year contract. -- FanGraphs

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MatLatosMatLatosMatLatos.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

Mat .... Latos

/Team America’d

The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer

by DerekH91 on Feb 19, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm guessing Cueto gets the opening day nod.

So that means Latos should be pitching the infamous Game 2 night, right?

/RRgasm’d

It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 19, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope so.

Already got my game 2 tickets, or as the Reds call it Opening Night.

by jacob brumfield on Feb 19, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The Fish have some pretty darn good pitching too, eh?

Here are the potential match-ups for the first series:

J Johnson vs J Cueto

M Berhle vs M Latos

A Sanchez vs M Leake

[BTW&FWIW I’m not convinced it won’t be Arroyo starting Game 3.]

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget they have a 1 game "series" the night before our Opening Day

Their home opener against the WLB’s. Unless you think Zambrano will start that game?

by ams78 on Feb 19, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah. I forgot about that.

The Reds play both the FIsh and the Birds in the first week of the season so that lone game has the potential to change pitching match-ups for each of the Reds’ first six games.

Odd. But whatever.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I love this.

He’s a perfect fit here.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Feb 19, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Cincimati

the “m” kinda looks like “nn” if you squint hard enough.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 19, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's 2 t's

Just not right next to each other. I thought that’s what you meant.

Fletch’d
#babar

by Brian B on Feb 19, 2012 11:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

This is kinda cool

Linked on BN: Cuban league All Star Game streaming online.

It’s the only actual baseball game happening today, to my knowledge.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Bootsy, you're a superstar right?"
"Twinkle, twinkle, babble."

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 19, 2012 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

I enjoied the awesome catcher's helmets

It was a hard formed, backwards hat.

crashtestnipplechip citymoron

by Excalib8 on Feb 19, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Not quite Arizona,

but Pinon Nut Coffee is pretty danged good.

Sammy said he had to cut his hair. Who died and made Jocko Marge Schott?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 19, 2012 5:58 PM EST reply actions  

dude's driving from Beaumont to Arizona?

Could I love him more…

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 19, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope he's in a beat up Red '93 F-150.

It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 19, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he's racing Stubbs.

But Stubbs is just hoofin’ the whole way.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 19, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

who does he think he is?

Adam Rosales?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 19, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's one helluva carbon footprint.

And he’s only 24!

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Janish

is riding in the back.

by Joe Nolan's Neckbeard on Feb 19, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Roster luggage/d

crashtestnipplechip citymoron

by Excalib8 on Feb 19, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

If that is what he's doing

That’s close to 1300 miles and 19 hours

by ams78 on Feb 19, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Again with Jay's counting stats!

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

"Not enough RBIs from the 5 hole."

- Marty Brennaman

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Feb 19, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Fuck you sMarty

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Feb 19, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Bubba Crosby once drove from Vero Beach to Houston

It took 17 hours. They wanted him in San Bernardino right away, and he didn’t want to leave his car (a new BMW purchased with part of his signing bonus) in Vero Beach.

Jay Bruce at least has his fiancee to help out with the driving. 19 hours isn’t too bad if you have someone to split the driving with.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 19, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Why? Why do you know this about Bubba Crosby?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Feb 19, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I read the blog

he wrote in his minor league days.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 20, 2012 7:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Is it hopeless that my first reaction was

“If you do find it, you’ll never know its velocity.”

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 20, 2012 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

no

Just geeky. :-)

Heisenberg was out driving, when a cop pulled him over. “Do you know how fast you were going?”

“No, but I know where I am.”

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 20, 2012 7:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that's awesome

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 21, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

He made it. Impressive.

by ams78 on Feb 20, 2012 7:40 AM EST up reply actions  

The Cincinnati Underground tour was great!

The stories were phenomenal and the stops along the tour were hit-or-miss. A couple were incredible and a couple they could probably find something better.

by Nasty N8 on Feb 19, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Where the stories delivered by a really enthusiastic tour guide

or a tour guide acting in character?

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 19, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Enthusiastic tour guide

Although dressed in period garb, the guides that I saw did not act in character.

by Nasty N8 on Feb 20, 2012 6:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Thankya.

I know Latos is a big boy but he looks like he found the Baby-Fat Suit that Jay got rid of over the winter.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 19, 2012 9:47 PM EST reply actions  

I did a Google Image search of his name

he looks like he has sorta Oprah’d over the years.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 19, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Fat pitchers can be phat pitchers.

Rick Reuschel, Terry Forster, Sid Fernandez, CC Sabathia, Roger Clemens, Bartolo Colon….

by Joe Nolan's Neckbeard on Feb 19, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Sidney Ponson

Although he was primarily just fat.

It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 19, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

David Wells.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 19, 2012 11:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Curt Schilling

It's not how far you go, it's how go you far. - Dave Marshak

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 19, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Fernando

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 20, 2012 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Prince

How to make your marriage work:
TELL YOUR WIFE SHE LOOKS PRETTY, EVEN IF SHE LOOKS LIKE A TRUCK.
Ricky - age 10

by Madville on Feb 20, 2012 3:18 AM EST up reply actions  

David Wells is my favorite example

a marshmallow with toothpicks for arms and legs

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 21, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

What are you going to do about it?

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 21, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's okay for a pitcher

An outfielder needs to be able to run, so shouldn’t get too heavy. But heavier is better for pitchers.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 19, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

how about the babe...

always looked like a pear propped up on two pretzel sticks…

by alcory11 on Feb 20, 2012 4:55 AM EST up reply actions  

In his later years.

Supposedly, in his early years the guy was solid as a rock. There just aren’t as many pictures of him from his early career.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Feb 20, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right.

The dude really filled out. Also, he had the nostrils of a fiend:

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 20, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The Babe drank himself into shape every spring training.

How to make your marriage work:
TELL YOUR WIFE SHE LOOKS PRETTY, EVEN IF SHE LOOKS LIKE A TRUCK.
Ricky - age 10

by Madville on Feb 20, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

teh Fay

spoke to Arroyo. Bronson thinks his velocity is back. I hope so, but man, looking at Fangraphs’ velocity charts, it doesn’t look good. His velocity has been dropping since 2009. He’s turning 35 in five days.

Fay says Arroyo is cooking all his own food, among other things. Man, I think I’d do like Yonder did, and hire a chef. Though I guess if you only work one day out of five, you have time to cook.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 19, 2012 10:02 PM EST reply actions  

cameron and tomko

well, remembering these two when they here back then…cameron just taking the first real steps in his career toward becoming pretty damned good…tomko, still with lots of promise but sort of not living up to it…still, i liked the guy.

whatever, they went along with a couple other guys for junior’s big homecoming…i hated that, railed long and hard against it before the deal was done. yep, i loved junior and his dad is still one of my heroes, but i knew befoe it happened that this was a stupid deal. the reds coming off the cinderella ’99 year with a load of young talent and needing little more than pitching…lots of pitching…actually a whole new staff, particularly starters. and operating on a pocket-change budget that they were, at the time, going to reallocate to make room for the great deal junior was giving them…oh, crap.

i said at the time that the team had sealed it’s fate for the century’s first decade, a fate of being in the bottom half of the division perennially. no offense to the younger griffey, but 4 ABs a game, even if it produced 60 homers a year and 150 RBI, just wasn’t going to make much difference to the win-loss column.

point is, cameron went on to having a very good decade, and if you look at it overall, wasn’t far off anything griff made happen here.

okay, a too serious post…but that damned trade still drives me mad. and then, the next year, the reds wound up in the position of signing a certain HOFs shortstop at age 37 for $9M a year. that wasn’t in and of itself bad, but lumped onto the griffey debacle, it completed the paralyzation of this team for the remainder of the decade.

just had to get this one out again, especially in light of the fantastic emphasis that has been put on getting some real pitching the last couple of years.

by alcory11 on Feb 20, 2012 5:05 AM EST reply actions  

This is insane.

It was one of the most lopsided deals ever. Losing Cameron or anyone else in that deal didn’t hurt the Reds. Griffey’s salary didn’t hurt the Reds. Eveything else did. Griffey’s injuries, Larkin holding the team hostage AGAIN, not being very good, and stumping for Bob Boone (who KILLED the team) hurt the team. Aaron Boone hurt the team. Pokey Reese hurt the team. An offense featuring washed-up Deion Sanders hurt the team. Counting on Pete Harnisch and then Paul Wilson hurt the team. The rest of the pitching staff hurt the team. Sean Casey turning into a singles hitter hurt the team.

I could go on and on, but the Griffey deal was in every way a landslide for the Reds. If you did not feel that way in 2000, then you truly did not understand how good Ken Griffey Jr. was.

by Brian B on Feb 20, 2012 9:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

that's incorrect

i would have traded phillips & gotten hamilton a babysitter if that’s what it took to make it work.

there are a lot of excuses for why that trade was made, but none of them were actually compelling enough to trade away possibly the most talented player in baseball

by 'tHan on Feb 20, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

To be fair

I thought Hamilton was going to struggle more with injuries than he has. But I’m with you.

by crolfer on Feb 20, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, he has missed a lot of games

Since 2008, when he basically played in all the Rangers games, he’s played in 89, 133, and 121 games. It’s still an overwhelming win in the Rangers’ favor, though

The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer

by DerekH91 on Feb 20, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Heer Heer ! Than...

How to make your marriage work:
TELL YOUR WIFE SHE LOOKS PRETTY, EVEN IF SHE LOOKS LIKE A TRUCK.
Ricky - age 10

by Madville on Feb 20, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I'm not so sure about that

From 2000-2008, Griffey produced 11.6 (bbref) WAR for the Reds, and cost around $95 million in salary.

Mike Cameron produced 33.1 WAR over the same period, at a total cost of about $50 million or so. He basically outproduced Griffey every single year after 2000, and always cost less.

Sticking with Cameron over Griffey would have almost certainly made the team better and freed up a ton of money. That said, Griffey’s collapse was not something that could have been predicted. A healthy Griffey would have likely been much more productive than Cameron, and probably worth the premium.

But the idea that Griffey’s salary hurt the Reds is far from insane, and certainly less insane than the idea that Aaron Boone was a major problem (he was a fairly productive and cheap player, exactly the type of player the Reds need, and they picked the perfect moment to let him go). Those other things hurt the Reds, but so did Griffey & his salary (and his salary played into some of those other things, as it limited their options).

The gross and net result of it is that people who spent most of their natural lives riding iron bicycles over the rocky roadsteads of this parish get their personalities mixed up with the personalities of their bicycle as a result of the interchanging of the atoms of each of them and you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who are nearly half people and half bicycles…

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Feb 20, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

exactly...

and as for the injury problem with griffey, he had those 12 years in already with seattle and i did point at the time that the reds would be extremely fortunate to get a couple of years without him experiencing more injury than he had had…turned out, they didn’t get that much…but thanks for making the comparison with cameron…i watched all that happen and it chapped my butt even more.

by alcory11 on Feb 21, 2012 5:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I think a strong argument could be made that the trade was loopsided for the Reds, but was still a bad use of resources.

A team that has a pitching staff with two established starting pitchers in Pete Harnisch and Denny Neagle, and relying on the likes of Steve Parris, Ron Vallone, and other retreds, has beens, and never weres to fill the bottom 3 spots in a rotation, is a team that probably won’t win much, or if it does it is due to luck.

I have a hard time faulting Bowden for making that deal, it is hard to pass up on the best player in baseball, especially when he is trying to “go home”. But at the same time a more savvy GM may have decided to spend the money that would go towards Griffey on starting pitching, as the Reds problem was starting pitching not hitting.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 20, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

But I should add

if the the Reds had any ability at all to draft and develop their own starting pitching, the trade could not have been questioned at the time.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 20, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

neagle...

sorry…i liked the guy too, but he really didn’t get in much time in cincy either…what, a couple of months of pretty decent pitching?

by alcory11 on Feb 21, 2012 5:03 AM EST up reply actions  

there is not a single universe in which I don't trade a 26-yo Cameron for a 29-yo Griffey

The problem was, Griffey couldn’t pitch. The staff was in shambles literally every year of Griffey’s tenure besides MAYBE 2006.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 20, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The other problem was that Griffey's legs exploded

There was really nothing in his history to suggest it was coming, as he was in his prime years and had not had significant injury issues previously.

A healthy Griffey alone probably gives them 3 more winning seasons during his tenure, (2002, 2004, 2006), not to mention higher attendance which could lead to more money available to improve the staff, resulting in even more wins, etc.

Those goddamned hamstrings just ruined everything.

The gross and net result of it is that people who spent most of their natural lives riding iron bicycles over the rocky roadsteads of this parish get their personalities mixed up with the personalities of their bicycle as a result of the interchanging of the atoms of each of them and you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who are nearly half people and half bicycles…

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Feb 20, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, he broke his wrist in 1995

Other than that, and the strike shortened 1994, he had appeared in 140+ games every year between 1990 and 2000.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 20, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

no way...

the reds were junior, larkin, and an array of 23 other players at any given time who were mostly bubble players at best…adam dunn coming in was actually damned good…austin kearns comes to mind, but he really never got anything going here…point is, with the teams the reds put out there over the near-decade, getting even two completely healthy juniors wouldn’t have improved them any…and that goes double because it didn’t take long for the reds to get to a point where they were selling off what little bit of talent they had.

by alcory11 on Feb 21, 2012 5:07 AM EST up reply actions  

the staff was in shambles in 2006

Harang and Arroyo were the only two steady pitchers, Milton was serviceable, Lohse was alright, they caught lightning in a bottle for about two months with EZ Ramirez, but an awfully high number of starts went to garbage pitchers like Chris Mickalick, Joe Mays, and David Williams.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 20, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Personally I blame Uncle Carl.

And the young and forward thinking Red’s shareholders

How to make your marriage work:
TELL YOUR WIFE SHE LOOKS PRETTY, EVEN IF SHE LOOKS LIKE A TRUCK.
Ricky - age 10

by Madville on Feb 20, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

you make my point...

yes, griffey is easily among the very very best who played, and exciting to all. but the reds came thru’99 playing about 15 games over their heads, and with the miserable pitching we had that was not just a miracle, it was completely unbelievable. and yes, not all those youngsters were great or going to be great, but they weren’t the problem that year, nor would they be a problem going forward if the reds had gotten some pitching…of course, it would have been rough actually bringing in about 9 new pitchers, but on the other hand, they could have brought in nearly anyone who’s ability was north of a church women’s softball team…my point was then and still is that griffey being the only improvement at the time just wasn’t any improvement at all. they could finish in 4th place without him. and yes, his salary hurt. it amounted to, even with his ‘discount’, about 25% of the reds’ budget, and then larkin got just about as much the next year on a 3 year deal. the reds hung their own immediate future on these two, a miraculous centerfielder who already had 12 years in the bigs and an aging star shortstop who was 5 or 6 years removed from his mvp season. this griffey move sealed the reds as a second tier team for the decade, and larkin’s contract ensured that there really wasn’t going to be any chance that they would somehow break out some more money. okay, so not making the deal would irk a lot of people here, but think about what happened. he came in, almost immediately was hurt some, and spent most of the following years hampered by one thing or another. he had one decent season, by griffey standards, never approached anything like what he’d done in seattle, and those ‘butts in seats’ really didn’t take off…or last. i’m, as i said, a big griffey fan, love the guy. but he brought nothing more than hoopla to the reds, and because there wasn’t going to be any other improvements, he didn’t make a whit of difference to this team. and yes, i was then and still am aware of just how great this guy was, but he didn’t bring more than a shadow of that here, either.

by alcory11 on Feb 21, 2012 4:58 AM EST up reply actions  

As it turned out, the Griffey deal hurt the Reds chances of being competitive because he was injured a lot

However, it didn’t have to hamstring the organization. Bowden (and company) didn’t draft a single remotely respectable pitcher for a decade. They also had quite the handful of misadventures trying to trade for one or sign one as a free agent. Harang was a big win, Arroyo was good, and for a decade, that was it, period. Bowden was also not very good (or not very inclined) to sign anyone of worth who wasn’t an outfielder, preferably a toolsy one still somewhat raw.

A lot of things conspired to make that lost decade. Griffey taking up too much salary is a small part. If the Reds had had any success building a team apart from trying to surround Griffey with thumping outfielders, his impact on team payroll would have been less than it was, but people don’t want to see a 75-win team that leads the league in RA annually.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep, all of the good pitchers in Bowden's tenure either came before him (Tom Browning, Jose Rijo, and John Smiley)

Or were pure luck retred projects; like Pete Schoureck, Pete Harnisch, and Steve Parris.

Other than Dave Burba and Mark Portugal, and maybe we can count Juan Guzman, whom Bowden picked up in the 1995 stretch run, none of the pitchers he signed were any good at all.

For as much as Dave Duncan is credited as a pitching witch, Don Gullet did a great job of turning chicken shit into chicken salad for many years, until he was saddled with pitchers like Jimmy Anderson and and injured Ryan Dempster.

"Uh, we're going to win for you tonight...Schottzie."-Chris Sabo

by Yossarian22 on Feb 21, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

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