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Reds Rotation vs. Cardinals Rotation - 2012

Howdy folks!

While we all know that projections are typically flawed, especially when it comes to pitchers, I found the following projections from Bill James to be quite surprising. According to James' projections, the Reds' rotation is just about as good as the Cards'....

The following projections can be found at FanGraphs. I’m using Bill James’ 2012 projections for this exercise. First, the projections, then some notes:

“ACE”

Johnny Cueto

  • K/9 – 7.09; BB/9 – 2.82; ERA – 3.77; FIP – 4.02

Adam Wainwright

  • K/9 – 7.49; BB/9 – 2.28; ERA – 3.27; FIP – 3.24

Differential (ERA): 0.5, Cardinals advantage

#2 Starter

Mat Latos

  • K/9 – 8.79; BB/9 – 2.73; ERA – 2.99; FIP – 3.11

Chris Carpenter

  • K/9 – 7.04; BB/9 – 2.17; ERA – 3.25; FIP – 3.25

Differential (ERA): 0.26, Reds advantage

(the rest... after the jump)

Star-divide

#3 Starter

Homer Bailey

  • K/9 – 7.43; BB/9 – 2.60; ERA – 3.96; FIP – 3.88

Jaime Garcia

  • K/9 – 7.38; BB/9 – 2.70; ERA – 3.64; FIP – 3.47

Differential (ERA): 0.32, Cardinals advantage

#4 Starter

Mike Leake

  • K/9 – 6.22; BB/9 – 2.33; ERA – 4.04; FIP – 4.47

Kyle Lohse

  • K/9 – 5.45; BB/9 – 2.28; ERA – 4.02; FIP – 4.09

Differential (ERA): 0.02, Cardinals advantage

#5 Starter

Bronson Arroyo

  • K/9 – 5.70; BB/9 – 2.22; ERA – 4.00; FIP – 4.68

Jake Westbrook

  • K/9 – 5.16; BB/9 – 3.39; ERA – 4.33; FIP – 4.35

Differential (ERA): 0.33, Reds advantage

Total Differential (ERA): 0.25, Cardinals advantage

Summary: The Cardinals project to have an advantage at 3 of the 5 spots in the rotation, and a slight advantage overall. Obviously, several factors can/will change all of this. MLB teams rarely (never) make it through an entire season using only 5 starting pitchers. In the end, the health of each rotation will determine the overall advantage.

My Take: I was surprised by how closely these rotations project for the 2012 season. The addition of Latos goes a long way in bridging the gap between the two rotations. I don’t take issue with any of James’ projections here. However, it will be interesting to see how Wainwright recovers from major surgery. When he’s right, he’s a top 5 pitcher in the NL, but as we all know, Tommy John surgery can have have a lingering impact on performance.

X-Factors: Two pitchers could dramatically change the overall dynamics of these rotations. For the Cardinals, Roy Oswalt would offer a significant upgrade over Jake Westbrook. As of now, Oswalt is not signed, and the Cardinals look like they are among the finalists in the Oswalt sweepstakes. For the Reds, Aroldis Chapman could offer an upgrade similar to that of Oswalt. Should Chapman transition to the role of starting pitcher effectively, he will be pitching in this rotation. The big question is: who would he replace? The easy answer is Arroyo, but due to his large salary that seems unlikely. Nonetheless, Chapman and Oswalt represent the wildcards for 2012. Here’s what James expects from them this season:

Roy Oswalt

  • K/9 – 7.00; BB/9 – 2.26; ERA – 3.47; FIP – 3.52

Aroldis Chapman

  • K/9 – 12.17; BB/9 – 6.17; ERA – 3.33; FIP – 3.51

Thoughts?

Comment 58 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Projections and ERA are both useless

Also, We have enough huge bats to overcome any pitching shortcomings our bad-ass rotation and bullpen might encounter.

crashtestnipplechip citymoron

by Excalib8 on Feb 1, 2012 3:27 PM EST reply actions  

Useless, yes. But fun!

I agree that projections tend to be highly unreliable. Nonetheless, they serve a purpose when there is no meaningful baseball being played… If nothing else, it gives us something to talk about.

ERA is not perfect, but that’s the nature of pitching statistics. Unlike hitting, we are still looking for the best way to evaluate pitchers.

And yes….the offense is stacked

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome.

There are certainly big questions about both rotations that no projection system could be expected to answer, but I agree that this is a fun little exercise. For st. L, I have to think that there a serious concerns about Carpenter, who’s in his late 30s and threw a lot last year.

Do you have Francis’s projections handy?

by ken on Feb 1, 2012 5:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Sure do!

James projects Francis to post a 4.22 ERA with a 4.04 FIP. I believe that was done before he signed with the Reds however, so the GABP factor may change those projections, not in a good way.

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 5:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I think I'd take that from Jeffy Franchise

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Feb 1, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

X

Can you tell the X-Men to get their ish together?

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 8:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

They are struh-guh-ling big time

No defense, no scoring outside of Tu/Mark. Ugh.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Feb 1, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the post!

Hopefully our bullpen will help matters a bit.

by crolfer on Feb 1, 2012 7:06 PM EST reply actions  

for sure

With a solid pen, old Rusty will have tons of options

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 7:55 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Wow, James is really high on Latos

If he posts an ERA of 2.99, we’ll be in a good place

The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer

by DerekH91 on Feb 1, 2012 7:25 PM EST reply actions  

To be fair...

I don’t think Bill James actually does these projections, I think its just a formula at this point. But to your point, I think a lot of people are high on Latos. Dude has all the makings of a dominant pitcher. I expect big things from him

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 7:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

nothing is better than a pitcher who gets a lot of swing and misses on pitches in the strike zone

the only thing that concerns me is he lost a couple miles on his fastball last year. But he may have just lowered his cruise a bit .

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 1, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

He still throws hard enough, given his superior location

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 9:13 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions   1 recs

Here's my 2 cents from a non saber-perspective.

I know all the projections have had to factor in him moving from Petco to GASP, and I don’t want to discount that it will have some sort of effect on his peripherals. I also don’t want to come across as accusing him of not playing hard while in San Diego…but I really have to think he’ll be pumped to pitch for a good team with a good offense in the middle of a pennant race.

I wouldn’t be at all shocked to see him come out and put up a nasty season.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 1, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree

Of all the pitchers rumored to be available via trade, Latos has the highest upside. I’m downright giddy

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 9:11 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

SD had the only defense better than the Reds'

is the above statement true or false?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 1, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

false

Reds were pretty much top in most categories, though SD was good too.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 1, 2012 9:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Just to be sure, I checked

NL ranks in each defensive metric:

       Reds    Padres
DER 1st 2nd
UZR 2nd* 3rd
TZ 2nd^ 10th
Rdrs† 1st 5th
DRS† 1st 2nd
RZR 1st 2nd

*Dbacks in 1st
^Nats in 1st
†Not sure why BBRef DRS and Fangraphs DRS have different values since I think they’re
the same thing.

Reds are the only team that ranks in the top 2 in every defensive metric

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 2, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

ah hah.

thank you.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 2, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

San Diego was in a playoff chase in 2010

and Latos was really pushed in September when that team was collapsing. He has already been in that situation.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 1, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

and he pitched like a badass.

That’s my point, Yossi!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 1, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That BB/9 for Chapman is fucking insane

I’m not really even doubting it, it’s just crazy high. Isn’t Wainwright’s a little high for a dude coming off TJ?

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Feb 1, 2012 8:29 PM EST reply actions  

i don't think it takes that into account.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 1, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

equally insane?

The K/9…

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 9:14 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Fuck the Cards

Can Stubbs hit
Can Cozart hit
Can Hi-Z hit
Will Bruce develop
How mis Mescaline do
What about all those VP guys Ludbrick and the other guy the shortstop…will Dustbrains play them over the ermerging AAA players…
Where will Bailey be
How about Androidis
What to do about Rolen

These are the real issues facing the Reds in 2012

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Feb 2, 2012 2:41 AM EST reply actions  

I agree

Yes
Probably
Maybe
Yes
Well
Probably
Here
There
Get him a new hip

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Feb 2, 2012 7:13 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Agreed Mads

No
Yes
Probably
Yes
No clue, but I don’t think he should be full-time until 2013
Of course The Dusty will play his vets, b/c he now has them
I guess the rotation?
Hopefully the rotation
Who is Rolen’s back up?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

As Yossarian22 pointed out...

I don’t think these projections account for injury history…

Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith

by AC Slider on Feb 2, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

lies

you now know how to check your drivers license history!

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 2, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for that again, btw

The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer

by DerekH91 on Feb 2, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

you know I love you, baby

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't imagine how stunned I was to only see that red light ticket pop up

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Projections are far from perfect

but never believe playing time projections. They are the hardest thing to project since the systems rarely account for many real world factors that affect that.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 2, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

That’s why I never look at stats.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Feb 3, 2012 2:52 AM EST up reply actions  

are you kidding me, a 3.77 ERA for Cueto?

that’s a 1.5 run per game jump!!!

i also don’t get how they project Leake to get worse (ERA 3.84 to 4.04)

I hate it when Ephram uses data & facts to refute my unfounded opinions....No chocolate chip cookies for him!!!

by ephram on Feb 3, 2012 6:55 PM EST reply actions  

i expect Cueto's ERA to jump up, but 1.5 runs a game?

And now that Cincy has a better bullpen to reduce inherited runners, i don’t get Cueto giving up 1.5 runs more a game.

I hate it when Ephram uses data & facts to refute my unfounded opinions....No chocolate chip cookies for him!!!

by ephram on Feb 3, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Cueto's FIP last year was 3.45. xFIP was 3.90

Also, only Dustin Moseley and Jaime Garcia pitched more than 100 innings and gave up a high percentage of unearned runs in 2011. He was crazy “lucky.”

As for inherited runners, he bequeathed 10 runners and only 2 of them scored in 2011. That’s not going to get better and will likely get worse.

I wouldn’t say it’s that big of a stretch to see 3.50-3.80 ERA for Cueto next year.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 3, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the very good numbers Cueto put up in 2010 are more likely than the great numbers he put up in 2011.

He also had an insanely low BABIP.

I am hopeful though that now that he is throwing more ground balls, he will continue the habit he picked up last year of pitching deep into games.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 3, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Johnny Cueto is God.

You shut yer face!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

If Cueto throws 200+ innings with an ERA of 3.5-3.8 in 2012

I will not complain one bit, that is still really fucking valuable.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 3, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah it is.

It’d be hard to complain about that, sure, but if he does that, either Latos will have to throw 200+ innings of 2.9 ERA or Bruce will have to OPS .900 for the Reds to win anything.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

and maybe both.

Johnny Cuest needs to be the tits this year.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If Latos keeps his ERA under 3.5

and Leake puts up about 200 innings with an ERA around 4, and the back of the rotation doesn’t suck, I think the Reds will be fine.

I think it is very hard for a pitcher under normal circumstances, rather than something crazy like a low/lucky BABIP, to keep an ERA under 3 in that ballpark.

I realize the environment has changed, but 2006-2007 Aaron Harang was a bonafide top of the staff pitcher, and considered by many to be, not quite on par with the Halladay’s and Lincecum’s of the league, but still one of the better pitchers in the game, and he had an ERA around 3.7 those years.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 3, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Girl, you crazy

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Feb 3, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just sayin' yo!

I think SS, CF, RF, and LF will have comparable production from last season, I think LF will be about the same, and I’m pretty confident that the net of 2B, 1B, and C will be a bit less than what the Reds got last season.

Couple that with zero returning starters with 200 IP, and I’m a bit worried. Hence the reason I was advocating adding one more bat!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

errmmm...I think 3B will improve, which is what was supposed to be where I listed the second LF.

Beer + Altitude + 20 inches of snow = poor cutting and pasting.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

I think Cueto and Leake will be around the 3.30-3.70 range for ERA.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 4, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

it's all about arroyo

If
a) he pitches like he did last year and
b) they don’t chuck him out of the rotation and replace him with someone between league average and replacement level

we’re doomed. DOOMED!

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 4, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.. Arroyo

And well…Stubbs…and then there’s Rolen and there’s a big hole in LF too…course it’s all moot Cozart fails…not too mention that this season sMarty and tHom are going to be in the both a lot together…

But it is all about Bronson…

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Feb 4, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

If the top three do their job, Arroyo just needs pitch a little better than he did last year or at least not too much worse.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Feb 4, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

By Lee Sinin's Runs Saved Above Average

Last year, Arroyo was a -24, and Volquez a -21.

Leake was +2, Bailey -6. Heck, Wood was a -10.

Latos was a perfect 0. Francis was a -15. Cueto was +29; Lincecum was only a 14. Oswalt was a +2, while the leader was Halladay at +38.

2010 Arroyo was also a perfect 0. 2010 Cueto was +12.

If Arroyo and Cueto split the difference between 2010 and 2011, we can put them down for a -12, and +20. Latos we can guess at a +10 without too much argument, I think. If Bailey and Leake stay the same, we’re looking at a net of +13 runs. Replacing Arroyo with last years’ Oswalt (who had issues, of course) would make that a +27.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 4, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Also of course, if Votto gets hurt

season wasted

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 4, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

We'll be alright

Miguel Cairo is batting .294/.351/.451 as a starting 1B for the Reds. That’s why they were comfortable trading Alonso.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Feb 6, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Statistical humor!

you have a knack that few others have, Slyde.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

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