Reds Rotation vs. Cardinals Rotation - 2012
Howdy folks!
While we all know that projections are typically flawed, especially when it comes to pitchers, I found the following projections from Bill James to be quite surprising. According to James' projections, the Reds' rotation is just about as good as the Cards'....
The following projections can be found at FanGraphs. I’m using Bill James’ 2012 projections for this exercise. First, the projections, then some notes:
“ACE”
- K/9 – 7.09; BB/9 – 2.82; ERA – 3.77; FIP – 4.02
- K/9 – 7.49; BB/9 – 2.28; ERA – 3.27; FIP – 3.24
Differential (ERA): 0.5, Cardinals advantage
#2 Starter
- K/9 – 8.79; BB/9 – 2.73; ERA – 2.99; FIP – 3.11
- K/9 – 7.04; BB/9 – 2.17; ERA – 3.25; FIP – 3.25
Differential (ERA): 0.26, Reds advantage
(the rest... after the jump)
#3 Starter- K/9 – 7.43; BB/9 – 2.60; ERA – 3.96; FIP – 3.88
- K/9 – 7.38; BB/9 – 2.70; ERA – 3.64; FIP – 3.47
Differential (ERA): 0.32, Cardinals advantage
#4 Starter
- K/9 – 6.22; BB/9 – 2.33; ERA – 4.04; FIP – 4.47
- K/9 – 5.45; BB/9 – 2.28; ERA – 4.02; FIP – 4.09
Differential (ERA): 0.02, Cardinals advantage
#5 Starter
- K/9 – 5.70; BB/9 – 2.22; ERA – 4.00; FIP – 4.68
- K/9 – 5.16; BB/9 – 3.39; ERA – 4.33; FIP – 4.35
Differential (ERA): 0.33, Reds advantage
Total Differential (ERA): 0.25, Cardinals advantage
Summary: The Cardinals project to have an advantage at 3 of the 5 spots in the rotation, and a slight advantage overall. Obviously, several factors can/will change all of this. MLB teams rarely (never) make it through an entire season using only 5 starting pitchers. In the end, the health of each rotation will determine the overall advantage.
My Take: I was surprised by how closely these rotations project for the 2012 season. The addition of Latos goes a long way in bridging the gap between the two rotations. I don’t take issue with any of James’ projections here. However, it will be interesting to see how Wainwright recovers from major surgery. When he’s right, he’s a top 5 pitcher in the NL, but as we all know, Tommy John surgery can have have a lingering impact on performance.
X-Factors: Two pitchers could dramatically change the overall dynamics of these rotations. For the Cardinals, Roy Oswalt would offer a significant upgrade over Jake Westbrook. As of now, Oswalt is not signed, and the Cardinals look like they are among the finalists in the Oswalt sweepstakes. For the Reds, Aroldis Chapman could offer an upgrade similar to that of Oswalt. Should Chapman transition to the role of starting pitcher effectively, he will be pitching in this rotation. The big question is: who would he replace? The easy answer is Arroyo, but due to his large salary that seems unlikely. Nonetheless, Chapman and Oswalt represent the wildcards for 2012. Here’s what James expects from them this season:
- K/9 – 7.00; BB/9 – 2.26; ERA – 3.47; FIP – 3.52
- K/9 – 12.17; BB/9 – 6.17; ERA – 3.33; FIP – 3.51
Thoughts?
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Projections and ERA are both useless
Also, We have enough huge bats to overcome any pitching shortcomings our bad-ass rotation and bullpen might encounter.
crashtestnipplechip citymoron
Useless, yes. But fun!
I agree that projections tend to be highly unreliable. Nonetheless, they serve a purpose when there is no meaningful baseball being played… If nothing else, it gives us something to talk about.
ERA is not perfect, but that’s the nature of pitching statistics. Unlike hitting, we are still looking for the best way to evaluate pitchers.
And yes….the offense is stacked
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
Welcome.
There are certainly big questions about both rotations that no projection system could be expected to answer, but I agree that this is a fun little exercise. For st. L, I have to think that there a serious concerns about Carpenter, who’s in his late 30s and threw a lot last year.
Do you have Francis’s projections handy?
by ken on Feb 1, 2012 5:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sure do!
James projects Francis to post a 4.22 ERA with a 4.04 FIP. I believe that was done before he signed with the Reds however, so the GABP factor may change those projections, not in a good way.
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 5:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think I'd take that from Jeffy Franchise
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
by BK on Feb 1, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
X
Can you tell the X-Men to get their ish together?
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 8:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
They are struh-guh-ling big time
No defense, no scoring outside of Tu/Mark. Ugh.
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
by BK on Feb 1, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, James is really high on Latos
If he posts an ERA of 2.99, we’ll be in a good place
The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer
To be fair...
I don’t think Bill James actually does these projections, I think its just a formula at this point. But to your point, I think a lot of people are high on Latos. Dude has all the makings of a dominant pitcher. I expect big things from him
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 7:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
nothing is better than a pitcher who gets a lot of swing and misses on pitches in the strike zone
the only thing that concerns me is he lost a couple miles on his fastball last year. But he may have just lowered his cruise a bit .
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
Here's my 2 cents from a non saber-perspective.
I know all the projections have had to factor in him moving from Petco to GASP, and I don’t want to discount that it will have some sort of effect on his peripherals. I also don’t want to come across as accusing him of not playing hard while in San Diego…but I really have to think he’ll be pumped to pitch for a good team with a good offense in the middle of a pennant race.
I wouldn’t be at all shocked to see him come out and put up a nasty season.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 1, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
SD had the only defense better than the Reds'
is the above statement true or false?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
false
Reds were pretty much top in most categories, though SD was good too.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Feb 1, 2012 9:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just to be sure, I checked
NL ranks in each defensive metric:
Reds Padres
DER 1st 2nd
UZR 2nd* 3rd
TZ 2nd^ 10th
Rdrs† 1st 5th
DRS† 1st 2nd
RZR 1st 2nd
*Dbacks in 1st
^Nats in 1st
†Not sure why BBRef DRS and Fangraphs DRS have different values since I think they’re
the same thing.
Reds are the only team that ranks in the top 2 in every defensive metric
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
San Diego was in a playoff chase in 2010
and Latos was really pushed in September when that team was collapsing. He has already been in that situation.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
and he pitched like a badass.
That’s my point, Yossi!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 1, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
That BB/9 for Chapman is fucking insane
I’m not really even doubting it, it’s just crazy high. Isn’t Wainwright’s a little high for a dude coming off TJ?
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
i don't think it takes that into account.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
equally insane?
The K/9…
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
by AC Slider on Feb 1, 2012 9:14 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Fuck the Cards
Can Stubbs hit
Can Cozart hit
Can Hi-Z hit
Will Bruce develop
How mis Mescaline do
What about all those VP guys Ludbrick and the other guy the shortstop…will Dustbrains play them over the ermerging AAA players…
Where will Bailey be
How about Androidis
What to do about Rolen
These are the real issues facing the Reds in 2012
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
Agreed Mads
No
Yes
Probably
Yes
No clue, but I don’t think he should be full-time until 2013
Of course The Dusty will play his vets, b/c he now has them
I guess the rotation?
Hopefully the rotation
Who is Rolen’s back up?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Bill James thinks Wainwright will pitch 209 innings next year? I'm not sure I'm buying that. AT ALL.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
As Yossarian22 pointed out...
I don’t think these projections account for injury history…
Barry Larkin > Ozzie Smith
Oh, I don't read anything he posts
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Feb 2, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
lies
you now know how to check your drivers license history!
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
you can't imagine how stunned I was to only see that red light ticket pop up
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Projections are far from perfect
but never believe playing time projections. They are the hardest thing to project since the systems rarely account for many real world factors that affect that.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
are you kidding me, a 3.77 ERA for Cueto?
that’s a 1.5 run per game jump!!!
i also don’t get how they project Leake to get worse (ERA 3.84 to 4.04)
I hate it when Ephram uses data & facts to refute my unfounded opinions....No chocolate chip cookies for him!!!
It's mostly because ERA is notably volatile from year to year
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 3, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
i expect Cueto's ERA to jump up, but 1.5 runs a game?
And now that Cincy has a better bullpen to reduce inherited runners, i don’t get Cueto giving up 1.5 runs more a game.
I hate it when Ephram uses data & facts to refute my unfounded opinions....No chocolate chip cookies for him!!!
Cueto's FIP last year was 3.45. xFIP was 3.90
Also, only Dustin Moseley and Jaime Garcia pitched more than 100 innings and gave up a high percentage of unearned runs in 2011. He was crazy “lucky.”
As for inherited runners, he bequeathed 10 runners and only 2 of them scored in 2011. That’s not going to get better and will likely get worse.
I wouldn’t say it’s that big of a stretch to see 3.50-3.80 ERA for Cueto next year.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
I think the very good numbers Cueto put up in 2010 are more likely than the great numbers he put up in 2011.
He also had an insanely low BABIP.
I am hopeful though that now that he is throwing more ground balls, he will continue the habit he picked up last year of pitching deep into games.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
Johnny Cueto is God.
You shut yer face!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
If Cueto throws 200+ innings with an ERA of 3.5-3.8 in 2012
I will not complain one bit, that is still really fucking valuable.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
yeah it is.
It’d be hard to complain about that, sure, but if he does that, either Latos will have to throw 200+ innings of 2.9 ERA or Bruce will have to OPS .900 for the Reds to win anything.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
and maybe both.
Johnny Cuest needs to be the tits this year.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
If Latos keeps his ERA under 3.5
and Leake puts up about 200 innings with an ERA around 4, and the back of the rotation doesn’t suck, I think the Reds will be fine.
I think it is very hard for a pitcher under normal circumstances, rather than something crazy like a low/lucky BABIP, to keep an ERA under 3 in that ballpark.
I realize the environment has changed, but 2006-2007 Aaron Harang was a bonafide top of the staff pitcher, and considered by many to be, not quite on par with the Halladay’s and Lincecum’s of the league, but still one of the better pitchers in the game, and he had an ERA around 3.7 those years.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
See this, kids? It's called setting oneself up for disappointment, a la Marty and Adam Dunn
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I'm just sayin' yo!
I think SS, CF, RF, and LF will have comparable production from last season, I think LF will be about the same, and I’m pretty confident that the net of 2B, 1B, and C will be a bit less than what the Reds got last season.
Couple that with zero returning starters with 200 IP, and I’m a bit worried. Hence the reason I was advocating adding one more bat!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
errmmm...I think 3B will improve, which is what was supposed to be where I listed the second LF.
Beer + Altitude + 20 inches of snow = poor cutting and pasting.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 3, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
I think Cueto and Leake will be around the 3.30-3.70 range for ERA.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
it's all about arroyo
If
a) he pitches like he did last year and
b) they don’t chuck him out of the rotation and replace him with someone between league average and replacement level
we’re doomed. DOOMED!
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Yeah.. Arroyo
And well…Stubbs…and then there’s Rolen and there’s a big hole in LF too…course it’s all moot Cozart fails…not too mention that this season sMarty and tHom are going to be in the both a lot together…
But it is all about Bronson…
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
If the top three do their job, Arroyo just needs pitch a little better than he did last year or at least not too much worse.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
By Lee Sinin's Runs Saved Above Average
Last year, Arroyo was a -24, and Volquez a -21.
Leake was +2, Bailey -6. Heck, Wood was a -10.
Latos was a perfect 0. Francis was a -15. Cueto was +29; Lincecum was only a 14. Oswalt was a +2, while the leader was Halladay at +38.
2010 Arroyo was also a perfect 0. 2010 Cueto was +12.
If Arroyo and Cueto split the difference between 2010 and 2011, we can put them down for a -12, and +20. Latos we can guess at a +10 without too much argument, I think. If Bailey and Leake stay the same, we’re looking at a net of +13 runs. Replacing Arroyo with last years’ Oswalt (who had issues, of course) would make that a +27.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Also of course, if Votto gets hurt
season wasted
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
We'll be alright
Miguel Cairo is batting .294/.351/.451 as a starting 1B for the Reds. That’s why they were comfortable trading Alonso.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Statistical humor!
you have a knack that few others have, Slyde.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

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