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A Non-Larkin Hall of Fame Thread

Today at 2:00, we'll find out whether Barry Larkin becomes a baseball immortal or if he has to wait another year. I've already expressed my cautious optimism on Barry's chances based on him being the top returning candidate. But there are a few other characters with him on the ballot worth mentioning. Below are my hypothetical choices, which include six "yes" votes in addition to Larkin. The "ahead in line" guys are better players who aren't in the Hall, while the "better than" crew is my stab at similar but inferior players who are already enshrined.

"YES"

Jeff Bagwell: 80 WAR, 2,150 games, .297/.408/.540, 149 OPS+.
His numbers are rock-solid, so let's get right to the PEDs issue. What we know about steroids as it pertains to Bagwell is: (1) he's a pretty big dude who displayed HOF power over a 15-year career; (2) he was not a ballyhooed minor league prospect; (3) there's no evidence whatsoever that he used; and (4) MLB did not test for PEDs until 2006, after Bagwell retired. The last point is easily the most important to me. While I'm not happy with the rampant use of steroids during the Selig Sillyball era, it's hypocritical to now punish players suspected of juicing when the league, players, media, corporate sponsors, fans - everybody - all willingly turned a blind eye to it. If voters want to ding those that have actually tested positive under the official program implemented in 2006, then fine. But withholding votes for the merely suspected players represents a discomforting whitewashing of baseball history. If I visit the Hall in ten years and guys like Bagwell and Barry Bonds aren't in the plaque room, it will feel disingenuous.

Ahead in line: Nobody. Bagwell is pretty clearly the best 1B not yet in the Hall, McGwire included.

Better than: Plenty, including Eddie Murray, Willie McCovey, and Tony Perez.

Alan Trammell: 67 WAR, 2,293 games, .285/.352/.415, 110 OPS+
You probably know that Trammell compares well with Larkin, falling just behind Barry in WAR (by two wins) and OPS+ (by six points). Trammell in fact comes up as the most similar player in baseball history on Larkin's bb-ref page. It's a mystery why he has done so poorly with the voters, but my guess is that stiffer competition during Trammell's prime made him look worse than he was. Larkin passed Ozzie Smith for good as the NL's best Shortstop around 1990 and didn't have a serious challenger for the rest of the decade. And from 1992 to 1996, Larkin was the best Shortstop in the game. Meanwhile, Trammell's peak (1980-1990) almost perfectly coincided with Cal Ripken Jr.'s (who won MVPs in 1983 and 1991). Through 1984, Trammell was also overshadowed by Robin Yount, the AL MVP in 1982.

One other point - Trammell finished his career much worse than Larkin. Larkin accumulated 32 WAR after turning 30, while Trammell tallied only 18. It's possible that Trammell's final, mediocre impressions haven't sat well with the writers.

Ahead in line: Nobody. And unless Trammell starts making a serious run in his last few years on the ballot, he'll remain the standard for Shortstops on the outside looking in.

Better than: Luis Aparicio, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, probably others.

Star-divide

Tim Raines: 65 WAR, .294/.385/.425, 123 OPS+.
There are Leftfielders with more homeruns or higher batting averages, but none with Raines' all-around game. From 1983 to 1987, Raines enjoyed an excellent peak worth six WAR per season, and he accumulated enough value before and afterwards to push him over the top. His HOF sound bytes are (1) he got on base more times than Tony Gwynn and scored more runs; and (2) he stole a ridiculous amount of bases at a higher success rate than any prolific base stealer in history.

Also, I can't remember where I read this, but Raines was probably more affected by labor issues than any player since Curt Flood. Raines had an excellent season in the strike-shortened 1981, and he was still a full-time player who missed out on games in 1994 and 1995. To top that off, he also missed about a month to start 1987 because he rightfully felt that he was getting jobbed in the collusion mess. In the aggregate, that's close to a full season lost.

Ahead in line: Jimmy Wynn? Bobby Bonds?

Better than: Lou Brock, for one. Former teammate Andre Dawson, for another.

Larry Walker: 67 WAR, .313/.400/.565, 140 OPS+.
Walker is the Outfield version of Larkin in many ways. He had a well-rounded game, hitting for average and power, drawing walks, playing good defense (7 Gold Gloves), and running the bases well (230 steals). He also had a long career but had trouble staying healthy, averaging 128 games per season. Both Walker and Larkin have one MVP and one ring.

The elephant in the room with Walker's case is the Coors factor. Walker's best Colorado seasons by OPS+ were stellar - 174, 163, 160, 158, and 150. But I'm a little skeptical when it comes park adjustments an extreme environment like pre-humidor Coors. His career road line of .278/.370/.495 doesn't place him in elite company, but that's unfair because players generally play better at home. Ultimately, Walker's legs, glove and arm are enough when considered with a very good bat to convince me that he's worthy.

Ahead in line: Nobody. Seriously.

Better than: Dave Winfield, Chuck Klein.

Edgar Martinez: 67 WAR, 2,055 games, .312/.418/.515, 147 OPS+
Dave Cameron makes a good case for Edgar, which is essentially "if Edgar didn't hit enough as a DH, then who does?" Martinez has an interesting career arc. His first full season wasn't until he was 27, partially because the Mariners were enamored with Jim Presley for some reason. After finally getting his shot, Edgar took full advantage and put up three terrific years at the hot corner before losing large chunks of 1993 and 1994 due to injuries and the strike. Once Seattle decided to make him a full-time DH, all he did was put up a 153 OPS+ in ten years (163 in the first seven).

Beyond the numbers, Edgar was someone I always rooted for because he was unsung. The iconic image of the classic Mariners-Yankees '95 LDS is Junior beaming at the bottom of the dogpile after scoring the winning run. But it was Edgar who drove in the tying run and Griffey with a double. Martinez hit .571 in that series. Mariano Rivera has called him the toughest batter he ever faced. Yeah, he's in.

Ahead in line/Better than: This one's tricky because there's no standard for Designated Hitters in the Hall. Edgar hit better than Paul Molitor (122 OPS+), but Molitor didn't DH as much and was a better runner and defender before he did. Some voters seem inclined to rule out DHs as a matter of course, but that's unfair. I can appreciate the objection to the DH, but if we're going to be electing pitchers who throw 70 innings a year, then we need to do the same for guys who hit in the middle of the lineup every day.

Mark McGwire: 63 WAR, 1,874 games, .263/.394/.588, 162 OPS+
The career numbers aren't overwhelming, but everyone knows that McGwire was a Very Big Deal in baseball for a good four years. Actually, he had two four-year terms of dominance. During the Oakland term from 1987-1990, McGwire hit 153 home runs and OPS+'d 143. His confidence shaken by an October 1990 whoopin' from Jose Rijo and the Nasty Boys, McGwire suffered through a terrible 1991 season and then debilitating injuries in 1993 and 1994. But starting up again in 1997 McGwire went on his historic power surge, hitting 254 home runs in just 650 games to finish his career. He didn't do the little things, but his power-fueled twin peaks are just enough for me.

Ahead in line/Better than: McGwire would be towards the bottom of HOF 1Bs. This is easily the toughest call for my "yes" guys.

"NO"

Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Bernie Williams: Good peaks, but not great enough to overcome short careers. Murphy is very close. There's something about the stars from the '80s that rendered them useless after they left their early 30s.

Fred McGriff, Rafael Palmeiro: Good careers, but not great enough to overcome relatively underwhelming peaks. Palmeiro gets dinged for testing positive, particularly after that finger-waiving nonsense in front of the Congressional committee. McGriff is the victim of poor timing.

Lee Smith: I think the bar for relievers should be very high. For at least a few years, the candidate needs to have been considered the most dominant closer in the game. A guy who intimidated opposing lineups simply by strolling to the mound. Smith was never that guy.

Jack Morris: Pass.

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This is my opinion for the Hall of Fame voting, so take it with a grain of salt.

Jeff Bagwell – Definitely yes. This is a guy that was dominate for a long time, and was never linked to steroids. I think his lengthy injury history is something that should be taken in to account also. It always seemed like he had some problem he played through. Toward the end of his career he could barely swing a bat, and I don’t think he could throw the ball to anyone but the pitcher.

Trammel – Yeah, very long career. He was always overshadowed by someone else. He deserves to get in the HoF.

Tim Raines – Probably one of the best leadoff hitters you could think of. I think if he played center field it would look even better. Most people link LF with power.

Larry Walker – Regardless of Coors Field, the guy was scary good. Imagine how good he would have been without the injuries. One of my favorite memories was of him hitting from the opposite side of the plate against Randy Johnson in the ASG. That was awesome, and he walked! What some people don’t realize is that Walker was also a pretty good base stealer.

Edgar Martinez – My first take on this subject is no. Edgar Martinez shouldn’t be in the HoF because he was a DH. This is mainly because of my vehement hatred of the designated hitter, the American League, and the dirty rat bastards that invented the rule. It allows for big, lumbering, unathletic players to hit, but not play in the field. If you can’t play defense then that should be accounted for as your total value as a player. David Ortiz should be forced to face the embarassment of having to play in the field. But, you have a point that if we allow relievers in then we should allow DH’s in. So, I’ll drop my stance of no DH’s in the HoF. However, it should only be the very best relievers and DH’s in the HoF. I’m not talking guys with borderline numbers. The said player better have dominated. Martinez was the best DH of the 90’s, and he deserves to be the HoF.

Mark McGwire – No…. and a hell no. I don’t care what other people think of the steroid era. Whether it was legal or not legal, it does not change my opinion on the subject. If there is any hint of proof that a player used steroids, then I believe they shouldn’t get it. McGwire is an even bigger case because his career is probably cut short by injuries if he doesn’t use roids. I don’t care what he did for the game in 1998. In my book he doesn’t get in. The same goes for Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, etc. I don’t even put Arod in the Hall, mainly because he lied about it. It may be disingenuous, but that is just my feelings on the subject. If these guys had come clean I would have more respect for them. But, they lied and tried to cover it up. Plus, the crap McGwire pulled in front of Congress was also shady.

The rest of these guys are a no. If Palmeiro ever gets in the HoF will be trash to me.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 8:50 AM EST reply actions  

Character can be taken into account in selecting HOF members.

McGwire lied, then lied some more, and think steroids never helped him. He was evasive to Congress. And he hugged the Maris family while he was invalidly surpassing Maris’ record.

No McGwire. I think it’s crappy that he’s still in the game, and I doubt that he is a very good hitting coach nor mentor nor example.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I obviously don't agree with you on the steroids stuff, but most of the writers seem to

Next couple of years will be a hoot. I wonder how Sosa will be treated, given that he’s a rumored steroids guy but there’s no hard evidence that I’m aware of.

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I think him apparently forgetting the English language in front of Congress should count.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you to an extent, but I would still put in Bonds for sure

and Clemens too, though slightly reluctantly. And ARod.

McGwire is a borderline candidate to begin with, so a steroids deduction can keep him out with no problem in my book. Palmeiro is the same way, more longevity but less peak. I don’t think Sosa would have been a HOF without PEDs so I wouldn’t vote for him either.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

More for Edgar:

He means the world to Seattle. Griffey had the unfortunate tendency to age, Rodriguez and Johnson ended up being not-quite-sweethearts, and Richie Amaral kinda sucked and I don’t know why I mentioned him.

Safeco is on Edgar Martinez way. I would argue that anyone who has the stadium road’s named after them ought to be in the HOF. He’s featured prominently in the only rap song based around the late-90s Mariners. He had that distinctive batting stance that I always thought included a little bit of a smirk. He’s a landmark of his era of baseball. I hate the DH, and even I would vote for him in a heartbeat.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 9, 2012 9:27 AM EST reply actions  

Announcer.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

No, he wasn't very good as an announcer.

Compared to his contemporaries, he was pretty lousy. But we loved him, Cincinnati loved him, and that should be enough.

Besides, if Tim McCarver won the Spinks Award, it has no value.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Nuxhall was a tremendous annoucer!!!

He was the Cincinnati Redleg’s voice of the common man for how many many years on WLW? HE WASN’T SLICK BUT HE WAS LOVED. And he shut the fuck up and let the game come to the listener. He was one of the greats.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyone outside of the Cincy circle would probably say he was a bad announcer.

I still love him though.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Wiate Hoyt was a drunk.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He was also a badass.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

And a hell of a lot better than Nuxhall, as much as I loved Joe.

We can all love Joe without forcing others to love him.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

flag'd

joe nuxhall is the greatest announcer to ever live. there is no doubt or debate about this.

by 'tHan on Jan 9, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank You "tHan

Joe would have kick Hoyt’s ass in a fight and then shook his hand and taken him out for a beer.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

When Rose and Concepion are voted in I will consider taking the HOF seriously again.

I will not be surprised if Larkin doesn’t make it on his 1st. try. Like Tony Perez, Larkin was after all, a Red.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 9:50 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think this is Larkin's first try.

I am thinking it is his third try overall.

I think Rose will eventually be voted in, but it will probably be after he dies. Concepcion not being in the HoF is a joke, but I’m also biased.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Probably not

As long as Rose is on the “permanently ineligible” list, he can’t be enshrined. Considering he’s done no favors for himself in the past 23 years (has it really been that long?), I highly doubt any future commissioner will reinstate him.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 9, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think the HoF and the ineligible list go hand in hand.

I think the HoF could still vote him in, they just respect the commissioner’s office to much to do so. Once he is dead there is no reason to keep him on the ineligible list.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

There's no reason to keep him on an ineligible list for the Hall of Fame.

wikipedia:

On February 4, 1991, the Hall of Fame voted formally to exclude individuals on the permanently ineligible list from being inducted into the Hall of Fame by way of the Baseball Writers Association of America vote
In 2008 the Veterans Committee barred players and managers on the ineligible list from consideration.

I think voting on Rose to never be voted on again in 1991 is horseshit. They give every other player the courtesy of a 5-year “cooling off period” so the writers can distance themselves. They waited 17 months to permanently ban Rose from even being considered.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Davy Concepcion.

H.O.F.
Period.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if there is a generational component to it

I’m with you, and I hypothesize that a number of folks our age and younger would say the same thing. But for those who were around back then and got to see him play, perhaps they see it differently? I dunno.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 9, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

good question

i only know pete rose the manager & pete rose the asshole I met in person.

i would imagine it would be hard to turn on a player you rooted for for a significant portion of your life.

by 'tHan on Jan 9, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No, they can't

Linky.

And Joe Jackson’s been dead 60 years, but still on the ineligible list.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 9, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely agree on Rose

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 9, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That he be in the HOF even though (like many other players e.g. Ty Cobb, Leo Durocher etc he was/is an asshole)

Me too Dave. Not for what he did after he became a manger, but for the incomparable career that he had as a player.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

pete, in person (non paying autograph booth), is not nice

I’ve found j bench and j morgan to be delightful.

pete was a tremendous interviewee back in the day, but his schtick has worn thin over the years. “seats are for asses”, “im sorry i bet on baseball”, etc, etc are all manufactured skits he delivers over and over and over.

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I would like to know under what circumstances you met Johnny Bench

Because you are the first person I have EVER heard describe him as delightful.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 10, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

the only bank you'll ever need, remember?

again, i take it with a grain of salt how people describe celebrities…i think its become kind of a badge of honor to bash Mr Bench and to belittle Joe Morgan and Fire Dusty.

hell, just take a look at the tim tebow vile spewed on this here site recently.

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

i have met johnny bench

he was nice to chan, but he was an asshole to me.

dammit, i thought he was gay?

by 'tHan on Jan 10, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

he is gay

but your wife is not hard on the eyes, so why wouldn’t he be nice to her?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Dale Murphy deserves a vote

Murphy was arguably the best player in the National League for the entire 80s.

A two time MVP, with speed, a glove and a huge arm. He was an OBP machine, led the league in walks many times if I remember from the back of his baseball cards. He was a perennial all-star. Just because he didn’t take PEDS and extend his career shouldn’t be held against him.

Compared to his peers, such as Dawson, I’d take Murphy. His stats in an era when numbers weren’t inflated and extended by PEDS and HGH are way on top his peers.

If the best player in the NL from the 79-87 doesn’t get in, what kind of Hall of Fame are you building?

by jeffshireman on Jan 9, 2012 9:57 AM EST reply actions  

Eh

He has had some good years. But, I don’t think he put up a good enough run to be in the HoF. His peak years were very good. But, to get in the HoF you usually have to do some good things after your peak. His career really tailed off after his age 31 season. I mean those were some really bad years. His age 22-25 seasons were also up and down.

He just had too much bad mixed in with good. If he had stuck at catcher he would definitely be in.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Meh, GG's are also awarded sometimes based on offense.

Derek Jeter also has a couple GG’s, but he is by no means a good defensive SS. Murphy is rated as the best defensive player by BBref. I still think he is borderline and gets a no vote for me. If he wouldn’t have dropped off so quickly he would be a no doubter.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Murphy's a HoVG guy

If he had played in NY or Boston he would receive some consideration, but he played for a bunch of awful Braves teams, and he was gone by the time Ted Turner came around.

Don’t forget that perception means more to a lot of voters than stats, especially the old guys and modern stats. WAR is still meaningless to a good chunk of the voters.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Ted Turner bought the Braves in 1976.

That was also the year of Dale Murphy’s first appearance with the Braves.

by Don, the Rebel without a Blog on Jan 9, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, he wasn't the best NL player from 79-87

That was Mike Schmidt. Keith Hernandez was probably better too, and he’s not in.

But like I said, this is a tough call for me. Ultimately I don’t think his peak was good enough to make up for doing nothing else after he turned 31. Tim Raines was pretty similar to Murphy in overlapping peaks from 81-87. If Raines hadn’t done anything after 87, I wouldn’t favor his case. But he still had several good, if not great, 3-4 win seasons afterwards. Those count for something.

The biggest issues with Murphy is how to rate his defense. The GGs suggest it was great, but Total Zone hates his defense through 86. After that, he switched to RF. I suspect the truth lies in between, but it seems awfully strange that a team would move its CF to RF after winning five straight Gold Gloves.

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

He was definitely a top-5 player of the 80s, I'd say

but Mike Schmidt, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken – these guys would make it pretty difficult to name Murphy the best player of the 80s. I see now NL player, but Schmidt is in a league of his own with the true all-time greats still.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a lot of peak vs. longevity going on here

Bagwell – I’m on the fence. Great peak, but it happened at the wrong time. I look at Bagwell and I wish Will Clark had got on the ’roid wagon. Bagwell made guys with more natural talent but less chemical inflation look bad. Final verdict – NO

Trammell – He was well above average for half his career, and average the rest of it. He was never a star. He’s a hall-of-very-gooder. Final verdict – NO

Raines – This is a no-brainer. He was the second-best leadoff man of his time. Unfortunately there was this Rickey guy, and more unfortunately, Raines spent most of his career in Montreal. This guy should already be in. Final verdict – YES

Martinez – Truly great peak. But a DH. Well, I think everyone agrees that Frank Thomas is going to get in, and if he does, Edgar should, too. Final verdict – YES

Walker – No, no no. One look at the splits is all you need. He gets bonus points for having a cannon of an arm in RF, but he’s got Coors stink all over him. Final verdict – NO

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

That's not true at all.

In the post-humidor age, the parks are relatively similar, but before the humidor, no park was anywhere close.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

To further my point

Joey Votto 2010

home: .297/.394/.556
away: .349/.452/.641

Larry Walker 1999

home .461/.531/.879
away .286/.375/.519

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

I just have award time penalizing Walker too much for having to play at Coord (and it’s not like he was a slouch away from Coors, either…a career .870 OPS away from home ain’t shabby.)

I’ve just always thought high-peak guys were more HOF worthy than long career guys, and Walker’s peak was just filthy.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I really wish we could just ignore Coors and the steroid era

With Walker, we know his peak was artificially inflated. He didn’t do anything wrong but mash the fuck out of the ball, but he will always have a cloud over him, just like Bagwell and the ’Roidies.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

It sucks.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

One is clearly a choice the player makes, the other is circumstantial.

As far as I’m concerned, the park a player is “born” should have no bearing on consideration. That’s akin to punishing a player in the modern era because his uniform allows greater movement, or because gym equipment is more sophisticated. If a ballpark meets the baseline to count as one of the MLB ballparks, that should be enough.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Jan 9, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think anyone disagrees with this

(willfully ignorant BBWAA voters notwithstanding), the question is simply how to account for it.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I never thought of this,

but I really like it.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 10, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Larry Walker, 1997 (MVP year)

Home: .384/.460/.709
Away: .346/.443/.733

He also hit well in Montreal while he was getting his feet wet (128 OPS+) and in his St. Louis swan song (134).

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I picked '99 because of the greatest Coors disparity

He never had a monster season in Montreal or St. Louis. We’ll never truly be able to separate his true peak from his Coors-inflated one, but the damage is done. The career difference is big enough.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

His career OPS+ (which accounts for park and league) of 140

is 5th overall for RF’ers. Better than Clemente, Gwynn, Reggie, Winfield, Kaline, etc…

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat

by -ManBearPig on Jan 9, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Understood, but my objection (and Glenn's, I think) is that pre-humidor Coors is crazy enough to throw off normal park adjustments

Take Vinny Castilla – he hit between 32 and 46 HRs six times for Colorado. His next four best HR years were 12, 12, 22 and 25. If you normalize those numbers to the ’00 Rox (bottom of the page), they go up only a little (15, 15, 26, 29). That still leaves a huge gap between his Coors and non-Coors years and suggests that, for certain players, handicapping Coors is just about impossible.

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

normalization models have trouble at the extremes. It’s too bad Coors field was just so crazy.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

really, who cares where they were hit?

they count the same no matter where they were hit. if baseball doesn’t want to standardize parks, then you can’t penalize players for where they played.

a home run is a home run is a home run.

by 'tHan on Jan 9, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn Straight tHan

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no way to perfectly standardize parks, though

Unless you want everyone to play in domes at sea level.

by ken on Jan 10, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think we'd want them to standardize parks.

I think ‘tHan is saying that parks are one of the many variables in the game that are uneven and therefore inherent to the nature of the game, and instead of worrying about such disparities we should interpret stats as of equal value across players. As long as a player is not cheating, that seems like the only fair way to evaluate players. It’s too bad that voters would punish a Larry Walker because he was drafted by the Rockies and not the Reds, with both teams officially sanctioned franchises of major league baseball playing in officially sanctioned parks.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Jan 10, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope, 'tHan thinks the different dimensions of parks is dumb

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 10, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

i disagree with tHan

he might change his mind after seeing a game in person at Wrigley or Fenway. i love the ivy and green monster.

the cookie cutter stadia that were Riverfront, Three Rivers, Veterans and Fulton Co did NOTHING to add to the game experience.

also, all of us grew up playing on different types of baseball fields. some had dirt infields…some had grass…some had a pitchers mound…some had home run fences….but it really doesnt change the game. still gotta get three outs an inning per side.

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree that the eccentric character of each ballpark is one of baseball's best characteristics.

Fenway is an amazing place to watch a game. But I don’t necessarily agree that the modernist stadia were a dark period. I think we will eventually look back fondly on some of that period’s more workaday examples, and of course Dodger Stadium is one of baseball’s very best.

As I’ve said on here before, the relentlessness of Riverfront, the darkness before you burst out into the light of the field, the seat colors, even the squishy expansion joints on the plaza in all of their utilitarian whimsy, made it a special place to be and very much of its time.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Jan 10, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm already looking fondly back at those parks

Aside from the aesthetics, they made a ton of economic sense. Also, their size kept the supply of seats high, reducing prices and the chance that you’d be shut out at the ticket window because the game sold out.

by ken on Jan 10, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember the first time I went with my dad to GABP

In his life, he had only ever been to Three Rivers and Riverfront. I had been to GABP a few times already, though. He had a difficult time understanding why I kept telling him not to bring his binoculars.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 10, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't have strong enough memories of Riverfront,

but I like RFK a whole lot more than Nationals’ Park.

Its interesting to hear you all compare Riverfront to GABP, having not a lot of knowledge on either of ’em.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 10, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm generally a fan of and scholar of modernism and am interested especially in the era in which projects like the modern stadia were built,

so perhaps that colors my interest, but I was definitely rather disappointed when GABP opened. It seemed like an agglomeration of many other parks without its own identity. I haven’t lived in Cincinnati for a while so while I grew up going to Riverfront, I have probably only been to GABP a handful of times. I can’t say it’s necessarily grown on me, but I can see how fans have taken to some aspects of it and I am glad to know that. I’m sure Crosley acolytes were frustrated by the austerity of Riverfront. In general I think spending huge amounts of public money on stadia is an unwise investment, but I appreciate the fact that each generation has their sentimental favorite, much of which arises from what they grew up with.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Trammell was a star.

It’s hard to argue that a player with 5 all-star appearances and a world series ring in a span of 7 years does not make them a star in their league. Now add in his OTHER all-star appearances where he STARTED by popular vote among the fans, and he has 6 total all-star games, including 4 times being the top vote-getter. He earned MVP votes that made him one of the top 20 players in the league SIX times.

The man was great, and was very, very popular. We call that being a star.

And let’s add in the seldom-mentioned SIX times he was a top-10 player in Offensive WAR and BEST player in Offensive WAR in 1987…all while playing SS and NOT including his gold glove defense!

And check this out: From the 10 years from 1979 through 1988, he was
6th in the AL in hits
Top-10 in Sac flies
and LED the AL in sacrifice hits

Trammell was one of the best players in the game for a long time despite becoming a utility man at age 36. And 36 sounds about when a player SHOULD naturally breakdown after starting damn-near every game – at shortstop – for 16 STRAIGHT SEASONS.

The more I look, the more amazed I am.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

For some reason, he was never a household name, despite playing in a big market

And being great in the only WS he played in.

But ’87 was the only season that he was truly great. No numbers stand out for any other year, and he had longevity, but not the counting stat milestones that normally come with that. His peak was just not peaky to justify all the pedestrian numbers, even for a SS.

Just can’t see him in the Hall. The line for shortstops is somewhere between Larkin and Trammell.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree that he won the outright fans vote four times without being a star.

The two ideas contradict each other.

Also, there barely IS a line between Larkin and Trammell.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

One point, if I may

You rely heavily on WAR for your ballot. However, WAR is a counting stat, and as such makes a player like Bagwell look much better than McGwire when in fact he probably wasn’t, he just played more. Bagwell accumulated about 3 extra years’ worth of PA compared to McGwire; on a “rate” of 162 games, McGwire actually was worth more than Bagwell. That being said, I’d also caution that WAR is far from perfect; it should be used to start a conversation, not end it.

I’ll also add this: Say what you will about the environment he played in, but McGwire was the greatest HR hitter of all time, which should count for something.

I’m not saying Bagwell doesn’t belong (I think he does), or that he’s less deserving than McGwire. I just don’t think the evidence suggests he was “clearly” better or more deserving.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 9, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

If there was no such thing as steroids, McGwire would be a first-ballot guy and Bagwell would still be on the fence.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Longevity should also play a part.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

That's up to the voters

And they ain’t us.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 9, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree about WAR

It’s just the starting point for me. I look pretty closely at everything, but I only have limited time to write out the stat summaries.

I can appreciate that McGwire was superlative in a WAR per game or some other rate stat, but as you point out he missed a lot of games. He also didn’t play a very memorable first base or run at all. Bagwell played just about every day, fielded, and ran. 1Bs with all-around skill sets like that are under appreciated. I would definitely take Bagwell’s career on my team over McGwire’s.

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ruth was better at hitting HRs

You have to have to adjust for the different eras…Ruth hit more in a year than entire teams, and all he was on was booze and hot dogs

by jeffshireman on Jan 9, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Defense and baserunning (and park effects) count too

which is why Bagwell is clearly a better player than McGwire, who was obviously a more prodigious power hitter.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

"fans - everybody - all willingly turned a blind eye to it."

It’s not true that fans turned a blind eye to it. Some didn’t care, some knew AND didn’t care, some had no idea. Some, like myself, bought tickets close to steroid users to heckle them to get off of the field that they were desecrating. Bonds HATED coming to Chavez Ravine when I was in the 2nd row. He glared at me between damn near every pitch.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

They were only half lying.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I did, too.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

PED's & the Hall

Suspected ‘roid users will be held from the Hall temporarily, but eventually they’ll get in. My guess is that none of the PED types, including those only suspected, will be voted in until after Jr. goes in on the first ballot. Writers will want to take a stand for a bit before capitulating.

by ben nevis on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Also of note against Bagwell:

He wore body armor and hung out over the plate to get hit painlessly. That’s bush league.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST reply actions  

He wore a protective pad on his backhand

and a protector on his ankle. He did not wear any other protective equipment. Yes, that’s bush league, but Bagwell didn’t do it – you are thinking of Biggio.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to see Bagwell get in eventually, but not this year.

I selfishly want Hall of Fame weekend to be completely about Barry Larkin this year.

by FordhamRam on Jan 9, 2012 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

Unfortunately, the Santo

I looked for a hotel room this weekend in Cooperstown for induction weekend. All sold out. Stupid Cubs fans.

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh right.

Dumb Veteran’s Committee. Couldn’t they have let the guy in when he was alive?

by FordhamRam on Jan 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No, shit.

He should have been in YEARS ago.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Barry Larkin a Hall Of Famer yet?

I need to update my resume.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 9, 2012 1:27 PM EST reply actions  

You promised me you'd lie for me, don't be an Indian Liar

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 9, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

When they call me for a reference:

I will explain that YES Larkin is a definate HOFer…the best of all around SS of his time in the big leagues…just like Concepcion.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Key to getting a good job #1

Taylor your resume to the posted position’s job description.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 9, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

My vote:

Larkin, Raines, Bagwell, Walker, Edgar

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat

by -ManBearPig on Jan 9, 2012 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

Olerud?

That’s interesting

Really good peak (two 8 win seasons), but he falls short of the “benchmarks” most have for 1st basemen to get in.

Fuck Murray Chass

by DerekH91 on Jan 9, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Olerud is not on the ballot

You’re wasting your hypothetical vote!

by ken on Jan 9, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He damn well should have been though.

Anyone who forces you to use BB/K as a stat instead of K/BB over 9000 PAs is deserving in my book. Dude could be my 1B over Bagwell, McGwire, Mattingly, or Palmeiro any day he wanted.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 9, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless

Bags was awesome. I love Olerud and he’ll always be one of my personal favorites, but Bags got on base just as well and also hit for tons of power.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 9, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

nice ballot

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I would add Trammell too

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

perhaps in place of Walker actually

still it was a good ballot MBP!

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Congrats Barry.

You were my favorite player growing up. You deserve it.

Wait, why am I talking to him like he reads blogs?

Oh well.

by Bray Juice on Jan 9, 2012 3:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

bagwell is a HOFer & there's no doubt

not voting for him is insane.

of course, there were voters that didn’t vote for Ricky Henderson 1st ballot.

really, the HOF is kinda dumb

by 'tHan on Jan 9, 2012 9:40 PM EST reply actions  

Concerning Bagwell

I will reiterate my thoughts from this time last year: This whole thing is a fuck.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 9, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

If Bagwell is a HoFer, so is Todd Helton...

And if Todd Helton is, so help me god Larry Walker is, too.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 10, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Are you equating Bagwell to Helton?

That’s ca-razy, hombre. I take Bagwell and Walker, but not Helton. He could still have a few great seasons to tip the scale, but I think he’s about done. And he falls a bit short.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 10, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahhh

See, this is where park factors really make the difference. Helton played in Coors, and Bagwell played at the Astrodome. Here’s their park-adjusted rate stats:

TH OPS+ 136
TH wRC+ 135
JB OPS+ 149
JB wRC+ 149

Also, I think the argument can be made that Bagwell is at least Helton’s equal with the glove. And check out their WAR totals:

TH bWAR 59.9
TH fWAR 61.3
JB bWAR 79.9
JB fWAR 83.9

I love me some Todd Helton, make no mistake, but he is no Baggy.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 10, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Still disagree.

I think the park factor would certainly help his SLG, but I just doubt the fact that it is the difference in .030 of batting average and .025 of OBP.

I’m not trying to sell Bagwell short, and I’ve said before I think he’s a hall of famer, but if he is, Helton is, too. Helton has also played many a game in Coors post-humidor, and the same parts of his fame that made him good at a young age are still making him good.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 10, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

different strokes, different folks

he flamed out and retired early…after his age 36 season. 449HR and 2300 hits aren’t sexy in the age of small ballparks and juiced ballplayers. his OPS+ was certainly HOF worthy, as was WAR.

(visually Bags really, really, really got MUCH more muscular after arriving in the majors. i have suspicions that many old timer voters are choosing to be more selective in their voting and ride the storm out, not wanting to vote for any roidhead. i expect Jeff will be voted in within 5 years. but i wouldnt bet my house he was clean)

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Will be interesting to see if there's a Killer B push to get Bagwell and Biggio in the same year

It’d be a nice story, which writers love.

I don’t think they’ll get it next year (which will be just Morris), but maybe in 2014. I’ll bet we see both Bagwell/Biggio and Maddux/Glavine elected that year.

by ken on Jan 10, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

just a hunch

but i think there will be 2-3 players elected per year for several seasons. its important to spread out the inductees in order to have a party every summer and i dont think anyone wants 7-10 inductees in any given year.

im in the minority but i like first ballot HOF’ers to be the upper echelon, the sure thingers. i dont mind some folks waiting a few years to be inducted.

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

you think it'll be Morris only next year?

That’s a scary thought. I think the voters put Biggio in on the first ballot to send a message to the Bondses and Clemenses of the world.

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat

by -ManBearPig on Jan 10, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

And I think future generations are going to look back on this with fascination and a stupifying lack of comprehension. Much the same we we look back at things like how some folks went to the beginning of the Civil War with a blanket and a picnic basket.

“Wait…they did what? And why did they do that? That’s crazy!”

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 10, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno about Biggio
  • He’s got the 3,000 hits but limped to the finish line to get it. Career .281 AVG is good, but for a non-HR hitter it doesn’t stand out.
  • Viewed as the second banana to a player who’s already been on the ballot for a couple of years.
  • 7 ASGs is good, but not awesome. Best MVP finish was 4th; only got votes in five years.
  • Hit like crap in the playoffs.

I underestimated how well Morris would do this year. I thought he was the kind of guy everyone had made their minds about. But that was wrong, and we’re already seeing writers like Ken Rosenthal saying he’ll reconsider his “no” (because nobody wants to be the vote that keeps someone out).

by ken on Jan 10, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

but I wonder how much the scrappy helmet, HBP sort of thing will help out.

I think -MBP has a point, whether we like it or not.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 10, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Every 3,000 hit club guy has gotten in except for Rose & Paleiro

I think he gets in for that alone, it’s like 300 wins.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 10, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it used to be

much like 500 homers. I don’t how true all that is anymore, though. Combine the skepticism and McCarthyism of the Steroids Era with the progressivism of the saber era and a number of pillars of the ancien regime begin to crumble.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 10, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Biggio has 5 more WAR than Rick Reuschel

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

That message being:

you should’ve roided to get 3000 hits, not 500 HRs!

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 11, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

when is piazza eligible?

i was thinking it’s next year. perhaps i’m wrong.

but, he’ll surely be a first ballot HOFer, right?

by 'tHan on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he debuts on the next ballot

He probably has more ’roid suspicions than Bagwell, being drafted in the millionth round and all

by ken on Jan 11, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Dude is - far and away, even - the best hitting catcher in baseball history

I can see him getting the Bagwell treatment, in fact, I expect it. But jeez. He hit better than Todd Helton and he was a (kinda bad) catcher. I’m afraid no one will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer anymore. Aside from Maddux, everyone else is going to have the spectre of steroids. It just sucks, is all.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 11, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

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