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Are we done shopping yet?

Teh Fay has run a couple of posts lately suggesting that the Reds might be done shopping after they re-sign Cordero. He says that Paul Janish might be the backup SS, and Chris Heisey the starting LFer.

Personally, I don't think Walt's going to do that, but if he did, would it be that bad?

Star-divide

Last year, scoring runs wasn't the Reds' problem. They were second in the NL in runs scored (behind the Cardinals). Was it just because they play in Great American Small Park? Nope. They were third in the NL (behind the Cards and Mets) in runs scored in away games. The Reds had plenty of offense, Paul Janish and all. They also had plenty of defense. They were first in the NL in defensive efficiency, Jonny Gomes and all.

(I checked in on Fangraphs to see who was responsible for that defensive showing. Not surprisingly, BP was atop the leaderboards in UZR. He has a good glove and he played almost every game, so that's entirely expected. Scott Rolen and Joey Votto were tied for second. Rolen's showing is pretty impressive for a part time player, and Votto really has improved on defense. Next on the list is Janish. Again, not a surprise. A part time player, but a good glove. Following him was Cozart, which is pretty amazing. Cozart played all of 11 games, but was worth a 4.1 UZR. That seems unreal. He played 11 games, but was worth more defensively than Gomes, Renteria, Bruce, Stubbs, etc. But then, so were Sappelt and Lewis. I don't understand how players who played so little can have such high UZRs, since it's a counting stat and all.)

Unfortunately, the pitching. That was where the Reds really needed improvement. They were down in the basement with the likes of the Astros and Cubs when it comes to team ERA. So, Walt has addressed the major problem with this team in acquiring Mat Latos and Sean Marshall.

Is that enough? I was going to say "yes," but on second thought, I'm not sure.

Here are what I consider the notable changes in the roster thus far (assuming Coco is re-signed):

Added:

Andrew Brackman
Zack Cozart
Juan Francisco
Mat Latos
Sean Marshall
Devin Mesoraco


Subtracted:

Yonder Alonso
Jared Burton
Ramon Hernandez
Johnny Gomes
Fred Lewis
Matt Maloney
Edgar Renteria
Dave Sappelt
Edinson Volquez
Dontrelle Willis (breaking news!)
Travis Wood

The pitching has definitely improved, but what about position players?

End-2_medium

Juan Francisco will mainly take at-bats from Miguel Cairo. Though hopefully Rolen's surgery means he'll play a lot more than he did last year. There might be a dropoff at 3B otherwise. Miguel Cairo actually played very well at 3B last year. I'm not saying he'd be able to repeat it this year, but it might be hard for END to match Miggy's 2011 production, on offense and defense.

Cozart2_medium

If Walt doesn't get a veteran backup SS, Cozart is basically replacing Renteria (at least from a roster construction point of view - Janish will still be available, and presumably won't be worse than he was last year). Cozart, in his meager 11 games, was more productive on defense than Renteria, and almost as productive on offense. If you believe Fangraphs' UZR and WAR, anyway. Not sure I do, but it seems like a good bet we'll see an improvement at SS, or at least won't see a drop off.

Mez_medium

Devin Mesoraco is replacing Ramon Hernandez, and we might see a drop there. CMM was one of the Reds' most productive players last year, even as a part-timer. I'm optimistic that Mez will have a better career than Hernandez, but it wouldn't shock me if he struggled his first year or two, on offense and defense.

Which brings us to the last hole in the lineup: left field.

Heisey-3_medium

At first blush, I was okay with Fay's idea of using Heisey in left field. But thinking about it a little more, I've changed my mind.

My guess is that Heisey is slated to be the backup outfielder - and he might be best suited to that role. He put up good numbers last year, but I don't think they're real. He hit more homers per PA than Votto or Bruce; does anyone seriously think he can keep it up?

Then there's the strikeouts that Fay mentions. Heisey, at least so far, has struggled to make contact when swinging at balls in the strike zone. That’s the knock on Stubbs, isn’t it? He has a better eye for the strike zone than anyone else on the team, Votto included. He knows a strike when he sees one. His problem is he can’t make contact even when he knows it’s a strike.

But Heisey’s 79.4% contact rate when swinging at pitches in the strike zone is worse than Stubbs’ 82.8 %. If you think Stubbs is the problem, Heisey isn’t the answer.

I dunno, maybe the strikeouts are as much a fluke of small sample size as the home runs. But I think there is a serious danger that once the book gets around on Heisey, he'll struggle to hit like a left fielder should.

In any case, the Reds have to get another outfielder. With Dave Sappelt traded, there are only four outfielders on the 40-man roster, and one of them is Denis Phipps. No way will the Reds use the very unproven Phipps as the fourth OFer and make the Heisey the starting LFer. Not if the plan is to win now. If Heisey crashes and burns, what's the backup plan? Danny Dorn? I doubt it.

I think Walt is going have to get another outfielder. If Heisey becomes the LFer, he'll probably want someone who can play CF as the fourth OFer. More likely, Heisey will be the fourth OFer, and Walt will sign a free agent left fielder.

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Good summary, and great pics!

I’m still worried about the pitching. Sure, as you point out, there’s ways we can improve the offense, of course. But if we slide to 4/5/6th in offense, that’s not going to hurt us too much.

It’s all about the pitching. Szymborski released the Reds projections today here. Latos is a stud, and Cueto is going to be fine, but after that…

I really like that he has very small probability of complete implosion by either Latos or Cueto. They seem about as safe as pitchers can be (which isn’t all that safe of course). In fact, they match up very similarly to the projections for Wainwright and Carpenter. But after that, it starts to get ugly.

ERA+ projections for our 3/4/5 pitchers:
Leake: 91
Bailey: 94
Arroyo: 83. Ouch. That’s Kyle Lohse territory.

The bullpen looks okay, if not great.

I think we need another SP. Oswalt is still available. If you believe in the Votto Window™, he’s allegedly only looking for a 1-year deal. Do it, Walt.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 8, 2012 3:35 PM EST reply actions  

You can never have enough pitching

I was just thinking that the Reds have traded quantity for quality when it comes to starting pitching. At the very least, they need to replace the Matt Maloney types they’ve lost. Getting another legitimate big league SP would be great. If the Reds have any money left and are talking to anyone.

Arroyo is a big concern. Even if he sucks, he’s probably going to keep going out there, because of his contract. We can only hope his new workout regimen will help him keep the ball in the park.

Just for fun…last year’s ZIPs projections. Boy, we weren’t the only ones overly optimistic about our starting pitching.

Player Proj. ERA+ Actual ERA+ Travis Wood 115 81 Edinson Volquez 115 68 Johnny Cueto 104 169 Bronson Arroyo 100 77 Mike Leake 97 101

Cueto blew his projection out fo the water, and Leake more or less matched his. Wood and Volquez projected as good as Latos and Cueto this year, but fell way short.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they have bodies to fill the Maloney role

Pedro Villareal is probably as ready as he’s gonna be. Scott Carroll could make a start or two. And I’m cautiously optimistic about Clayton Tanner. Also, with a good first half, Sulbaran may put himself in position to get a look later in the season.

by poojols on Jan 8, 2012 7:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Sorry, I don't read Arabic

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 8, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

yo son

sister D didn’t post this..

slow your role

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Jsutin font

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Damn straigh

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

/jsutin'd

*straight

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

hmmm

Seems to be a problem with the way SBNation handles monospaced fonts.

It looks fine to me, but parts of the text are cut off with smaller font sizes.

And IE doesn’t even display most of the text.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, that's what I'm using

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks fine on my Minority Report projector pc

And my Alice in Wonderland magical mirror.

crashtestnipplechip citymoron

by Excalib8 on Jan 9, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, it's an isssue that's been around for a while

I was just giving you shit. :)

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 9, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I never knew

it was a problem.

That kinda sucks for a baseball site. How are you supposed to post stats?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Slyde figured out some way to reformat it, I think

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 9, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't use the code tag, use the tag
Player          Proj. ERA+      Actual ERA+
Travis Wood           115         81
Edinson Volquez       115         68
Johnny Cueto          104        169
Bronson Arroyo        100         77
Mike Leake             97        101

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 9, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks

Wood was supposed to be Latos last year. Instead, he was Arroyo.

The pitching is actually worse this year, at least by these projections.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Holy wow.

I guess I didn’t realize that Cueto had that kind of season.

(I was busy most of the summer and it seemed like every time I sat down to watch the Reds it was Volquez or Arroyo pitching.)

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks. I should be here more often this year. I'll have a new plan of attack.

I was always trying to do the DVR-delay or MLBtv-delay thing this past summer which means that I wouldn’t start watching games until 10 or 1030 most nights. And then of course I’d fall asleep in the fifth and tell myself that I’d get back to the later innings sometime the next day (which means I wouldn’t want to check in here for coverage and commentary) and then I never would. So I was watching about 45% of only about 60% of the games while not getting any insight from anyone other than the broadcasters and a lot of times I was watching the Reds’ opponents telecast because it’s not pleasant trying to relax at 11pm with Thom BELLOWING his steadfast-for-steadfastness’s-sake opinions and other banalities.

Also, I watched more than my share of Rays games. Even their home games.

I’ve been a bad bad Reds fan.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I DVR everything and watch it later.

I go on media blackout until after the game. But if I have limited time, I will not only zip thru the commercials, but I will FF thru the spaces between pitches. If really strapped for time, with a pitcher on the mind whom I don’t want to watch, I will watch the opponents bat at triple speed until they get a man in scoring position.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 10, 2012 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Lots of question marks for a team that is built to *win now*
  • Rookie shortstop
  • Rookie catcher
  • Young-ish centerfielder with solid defense but an inconsistent bat
  • Old old old third baseman which might not become a problem but when you consider that there is not yet a fearsome masher in left field, all of a sudden the offensive question marks are starting to pile up.
  • A bottom of the rotation that might not be any worse than most non-Phillie teams but sure looks messier than that of a team you want to pencil in for 86+ wins.

*And as of right now, no closer

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 8, 2012 7:30 PM EST reply actions  

yeah

They could all work out. They could all be better than we expect.

But a team built to “win now” can’t afford to think that way. Walt has to give at least some thought to worst-case scenarios.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure he's giving it thought.

And Bob’s okay with that because thoughts don’t cost anything.

I hate to sound like a whiny fan of a small market team but the Reds can’t afford a ‘Plan B.’ They can barely piece together an affordable ‘Plan A.’

This past May I was looking at the Brewers roster when they were hanging around four or five games under .500 and I remember thinking that it was a shame that they hadn’t been able to do better putting a solid team around Braun and Fielder while they had them together. Their bullpen was solid in 2010 and it appeared (at the time..May of 2011 when I was looking at them) that it was a collection of guys just having the best few weeks and months of their careers. Sometimes that’s the best that a GM can do.. put together a few All Star caliber players and fill the rest of the 40-man with guys who aren’t expensive (ahem.. Oswalt) and aren’t likely to break down (ahemahem..Owsalt) and hope that they show you the best that they’re capable of.

I think I’m ready to accept whatever Walt puts together (even if there’s not much more to come) and then hope that they start hot, sell some tickets and then Bob lets Walt trade for a big expensive rent-a-vet or two during the season.

I guess that’s not really a ‘Plan B.’ It’s more of ‘Plan A’ with an addendum or amendments or something.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 8, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I really think Chapman is the key to it all for the rotation

If he can keep the walks down even a little (Like, under 5/9 territory) then I think we have the best starting 4 in the division

Fuck Murray Chass

by DerekH91 on Jan 8, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree

It’s entirely possible that he pitch’s 150+ innings around a 4 ERA, which I think everyone would be happy with.

Another thing about Chapman, when he’s on he’s completely unhittable. I think a SP with 3 lights out games and one crapper, than 4 mediocre starts. Let’s just hope he’s unhittable most of the time.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 8, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope i'm wrong

but I don’t see any way Chapman pitches 150 innings. Even if he starts the season in the rotation he will prolly end it in the bullpen. He just hasn’t built up the arm strength yet.

by matchu522 on Jan 9, 2012 7:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Baseball Talk?

While we have Tebow bein’ Tebow, Bourbon talk, Burger talk, and RRs needing solid advice?

This will get more comments tomorrow

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 8:56 PM EST reply actions  

Yay baseball!

I don't know why my kids call me that. I think I'm a pretty nice mom.

by darthmom on Jan 8, 2012 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

I'm serious about Oswalt

Well, the more I think about it, the more serious I get.

He wants a 1-year deal to prove last year was an anomaly. If we dig $8M out of the couch cushions, could we get him?

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 8, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions  

Will it really take that much?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Now that I look at it, it probably would

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be game for that

Win now, and all that. He might help us more than Coco would.

I saw Oswalt make a rehab start in Scranton last August. He looked pretty good, and the ballpark was packed with fans eager to see him.

Plus, it would keep the Cardinals from getting him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he would very likely help us more than Coco.

The question is: will he be as good of a value as Coco?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say yes

Unless Coco is ridiculously cheap and Oswalt ridiculously expensive. Relief pitchers just don’t play that much. I really think we could get Coco’s production out of someone currently in the pen.

Oswalt’s health is a concern. But even if he has another year like last year, he’d be more valuable than any of our starters not named Cueto last year.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

If it were my money I would much rather pay $8,000,000 for an average starting pitcher than $4,000,000 for a good reliever.

Coco at best will be a good above average closer next year.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, but do you think we can get Oswalt for $8MM?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yabbut.

How valuable would he be in September and October?

He’d almost have to be used like a fifth starter if you’d want him to do what you’d be paying him to help you do- get to the World Series.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 8, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

If Oswalt can give the Reds 100+ innings, with an ERA+ north of 110

and be healthy for the playoffs, I would consider him to a be positive addition over Coco.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Oswalt pitched 23 games last year

That’s about equal to what each of our starters pitched last year, except for innings-eater Arroyo.

In previous years, he’s pitched 30 games or more – same as Arroyo. Only with a lower ERA.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that I shouldn't assume that he'll break down or at least wear down.

But he is another year older and dude has racked up some innings in his career.

I guess another way to look at it is that maybe his 140 innings last year was like a sabbatical for him.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 8, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Oswalt

is 6 months younger than Arroyo.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait. I'm not comparing Oswalt to Arroyo, am I?

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

just saying

that if being another year older and racking up some innings means a pitcher won’t be in any shape to help out in September, Arroyo’s contract is going to be a millstone around the Reds’ necks.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

This is true.

But Arroyo didn’t miss six weeks with a bulging disc last year. And if he had, he would have done it after signing a contract with the Reds which is different then when Oswalt did (in relation to his hypothetical contract with the Reds).

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to mention,

but Oswalt is tiny, Arroyo; less so.

Pedro Martinez after his age 33 season.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 9, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I usually just read comments that awesome...

And wait for Justin to find them.

crashtestnipplechip citymoron

by Excalib8 on Jan 9, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

henceforth

better than Leake

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the other piece of it.

Let Coco walk get the draft pick.

Give up the draft pick to sign Oswalt.

Now, you’ve got 3 solid pitchers, then Leake/Arroyo, then Bailey/Chapman. Arroyo can back up Leake if he tires down the stretch, and the pressure is off Chapman to perform.

Of course, if Chapman comes into his own, then you have Latos/Cueto/Oswalt/Chapman/Leake, which is pretty sweet.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 8, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

If they sign another pitcher or Chapman starts at any point this season (I'm doubtful)

then Arroyo should be out of the rotation. I say give him a couple of months to show he’s back to his old self, but if it’s the same crap as last year move him to the pen or something.

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Harang him to the D.L. with a bad back.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, that's the problem

What do you do with so many starting pitchers? They have to keep pitching somehow, or they won’t be ready when you need them. It would suck if Leake is sent down just ’cause he has options.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

If they just have to pay him to stay home, pay him to stay home.

It’s a sunk cost at this point anyway.

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't really pay him to stay home

If he’s on the roster, he has to be used, or you’re really hurting the team.

If he’s not the roster, you’ll end up paying him to pitch for someone else.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 8, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's a good point,

Walt really f*cked us when he made all that deferred money become upfront money if Bronson is moved.

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

One more starting pitcher and this team is in really good shape

If Oswalt is healthy enough to stay on the field he will most likely provide the Reds some quality innings. The Reds need a starter more than a closer, and a rotation of

Latos
Cueto
Leake
Oswalt
Arroyo

looks pretty sharp.

Also I would go into a bidding war just to keep him out of St. Louis.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Oswalt better than Leake?

I guess if I pull a Lita Ford and close my eyes, then sure.

but I’ll avatar wager than Oswalt has a better 2012 than Mike Leake

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

If we knew what we were doing

Leake would pitch and Arroyo would sit. Or long man, or something.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 8, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

if we knew what we were doing we'd give Pops an ironclad alibi and take care of The Nasty Hook

and then Arroyo wouldn’t be a problem to hurt us on the field.. he’d just hurt us in the ledger

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Insurance would probably cover the Reds in that case

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

hypothetically

of course

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep offering to be the wheelman

but Mads never fucking takes me up on my offer..

I mean shit, if I can make it from Cincinnati to Hartford in 10.5 hours, I should have some value, right?
And if I can make it from Hartford to Cleveland in 7.75 hours, I should still have some value, right?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

The job pays 40% of the 'Take'

minus gas expenses.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 8, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

The "Take" from the lucrative lottery we're going to win, of course

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, now you're fucking negotiating

I’ve waiting this gig for what, 2 years now?

Blow me, Mads

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

if they took out a policy on his contract

they might have to pay out the remainder of his contract to an estate once Pops talks to him

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't the insurance pay that, though? Surely

teams take out a policy on a player’s life, right?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 8, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

don't know the fine print in The Nasty Hook's contract

nor how the Reds hedged their bet

regardless, I know where Pops is gonna be or has been from this point forward, until anything happens

just sayin’

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

that's different

The insurance team takes out on a contract is not the same thing as the kind of insurance that provides for the family. And Lidle was a really weird case, anyway.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I get that life insurance is different than contract insurance, but if we're talking about offing Bronson, does the team get out of the contract somehow?

Wait, are we really having this conversation?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 9, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

for the record

I am not in favor of offing Bronson.

However, I do think the Reds would get out of the contract if Arroyo died. Teams typically buy insurance for large contracts, so they are protected if the player can’t play. It doesn’t protect against suckitude. But it will protect the team if the player can’t fulfill the contract. Carl Pavano being a notable example. He spent four years on the DL, sucking up money. The Yankees would have loved to just dump him, but if they did, they’d have to pay his contract. As long as they kept him on the DL, their insurance company paid it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Yankees reference

drink

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 9, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You need to settle down dude

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 10, 2012 7:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Justify HLM's comment, I dare you

Better yet, do it without invoking anyone else’s previous comments. That’s the problem – everyone wants the stupidity to stop but no one wants to be the first to stop doing it. “Well so-and-so did this!” is not a valid excuse.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 10, 2012 8:28 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I'm not puffing anything, I'm pointing out the stupidity of it all

If it were anyone but HLM, you guys would be complaining that they were following someone around antagonizing and trying to pick a fight. At what point does it stop on all sides?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 11, 2012 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

noted

I will pick and choose my snark accordingly

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm having this conversation

if it frees up payroll for the Reds to reallocate, and the Reds never give the ball to Arroyo ever again, tell me how these are bad things?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 9, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Giving Arroyo a chance to proove he has value isn't a bad idea

The Reds have to pay him about $26M for him to pitch the next two years, mightaswell give him the opportunity to prove he has value. I would give him until June, and make a decision on his role on the team.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Arroyo is getting older and has lost some velocoty but he knows how to pitch, has tons of MLB experience and a rubber arm.

Leake is young who knows…we can only hope
Cueto – the best we have at the moment
Chapman – if he shows up and pitches well in ST, I look for him to be in the rotation – He’s a Lefty.
Homer – Ready to have a really solid year. I hear nothing about him at RR, I assume he’s still on the team.
Latos – we gave up a great deal for this guy, I can only hope he can be as productive as Cueto.

Then there’s always Sam…
Anyway I am no more interested in Oswalt than I am another retread LF. I disagree that Scott Rolen will play more in 2012 and be more productive. Surgery or not, Rolen is on the downside of a great career and his body will not hold up for more than 90 games tops…but most likely 60-70, or even an early retirement.
Let’s hope that Fiasco is ready, if so then have Frazier in LF will be just fine.

My June 1st line-up:

BP 2B
Cozart SS
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Mesoraco C
Fransico 3B
Frazier LF
Stubbs CF
P.

Rolen will be hurting again by then. If Fiasco ain’t hitting then its Todd to 3B and Hi-Z to LF.
But what do I know…
Then again WTF does Dusty know?

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 8, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i knew this was you Mads

and I love you, brother

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't figure out what you're saying here

But if you’re saying Oswalt will have a better 2012 than Leake, I want to know your terms.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 8, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

like i said in another thread

I think it is fair to say that Leake is more likely to throw 180+ innings than Oswalt, but if Oswalt does throw over 180 innings he will probably have a better year than Leake.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 8, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Even then, I'm not sure it happens

I definitely need to know what the basis of the bet is before taking it though. “Better year” is too ambiguous, even for me.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Jan 8, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

why are YOU in this?

I’m not makin’ the bet with you, son

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

so you're saying that if Oswalt eclipses 180+ innings he'll have a better year than Leake?

but if he doesn’t, then Leake will have the better year?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

easy cowboy

if Yossarian22 or Justin(insert numbers here) wants an avatar bet, he can come up with his own terms..

I’m saying during all of 2012, Oswalt will be a more valuable pitcher and outperform Leake

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe HLM21...but at what cost? Roy, Roy, Roy....

How much dinero or draft picks or prospects would he cost?
Does he still have it?

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 8, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say Orbison

Christ on a M’F’n 7-10 split Mads..

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure you said Roy Orbison.

Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?

by andromache on Jan 9, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I said Oswalt, and y'all know it

click that up think a couple of times

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 9, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Anything you want!

I see a love that money just cant buy.
One look from you, I drift away.
I pray that you are here to stay.

(Ask me on most days and I’l tell you it’s my alltime favorite.)

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Over "Only the Lonely"?

"Good luck, National League managers – I have no idea how you’re supposed to get this guy out." - Dave Cameron on Joey Votto

by Grahamophone on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Gimme the timpani!

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I love his Wilburys stuff.

Jeff Lynne makes everything better.

Not everybody is a Kenyan, fool. - jch

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 10, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

When I was twelve or thirteen...

this was one of my favorite songs. I could not explain to my friends why this song was yes, as corny as could be, but also as brilliant as anything I’d ever heard up to that point (stay with it until 4:30). I couldn’t explain it because I didn’t know how to explain it.

Years later when I heard the Wilburys and learned that the same guy who got them together for that great stuff was also was the studio scientist behind ELO and Xanadu, I knew how to explain it.. Jeff Lynne, bitches.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 10, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I'd prefer that

to having him pad his stats against the Reds wearing a Cardinal uniform.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Tommy Lee'd

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

MLB Trade Rumors

has a post about the remaining free agent groundballers.

It would cause some roster problems, but I wonder if Walt is considering picking up one of them.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 6:40 AM EST reply actions  

I thought Kuroda would be picked up by now.

Him, Ozzy, and Maholm are all pretty decent.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 9, 2012 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

There might be a dropoff at 3B

Fortunately Rolen should spend most of 2012 on the DL, so we won’t have to worry about the offensive dropoff when he subs for Francisco.

by ephram on Jan 9, 2012 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

Harsh

I’m hoping the shoulder surgery means we’ll get 2010 Rolen back.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm hoping the same.

I don’t know why so many people want to see Rolen on the DL. A healthy productive Rolen is so much more valuable to the team.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

And we’ll already have enough interesting young players with high ceilings (C, SS, CF, SP and even RF) to watch and root for as it is. It’ll be good for us to have a gimpy old vet with a high ceiling over there at third base.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

2010 Rolen is not coming back

maybe halfway between ’10 and ’11.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody wants Rolen to be anything but the Rolen he once was and possibly still can be.

However age and fragility have taken their toll. I fear that Dusty will play Scott when he’s too tired or hurting and not give the younger kids their required time to develop at the MLB level.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 1:40 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know.

Dusty has shown he is willing to sit Scotty to keep him fresh. He also seems to really like Francisco. The way Dusty has handled Rolen is not something I am concerned with.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 9, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

I trust Dusty to handle Rolen and END.

Dusty seems to handle older players well. Even when he lost faith in Janish last year…he still only played Renteria 2/3 of the time. Knew the old guy couldn’t handle playing every day.

Dusty gave Rolen Sundays off and noticed that wasn’t enough. Hopefully having young Juan around will encourage him to give Rolen more rest.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Rolen got a lot of time of in 2010.

He was set to get more time off even if healthy in 2011.

The biggest question I have about Dusty is why he gave Gomes and Cairo so much playing time, rather than Frazier and Heisey.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 9, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

"Look son, here's something y'ain't gonna learn in grad school...Jonny Gomes had another mouth to feed."

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 9, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Frazier wasn't available

He actually had Heisey take some grounders at third. He was bad, and admitted it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh shit, I forgot about the Frazier injury thing in June.

but I still feel like there was a time when Frazier and Cairo were on the roster and Cairo was starting and Frazier wasn’t.

As far as Heisey I intended for him to start in place of Gomes, at least before Alonso was on the roster.

"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks

by Yossarian22 on Jan 9, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Frazier did have an injury early in the season

But I don’t think that was the reason Dusty didn’t use him.

There was no room on the roster for him, so he started in Louisville. He had a one-game cup of coffee, got one at-bat, and struck out.

When Rolen going on the DL opened up a roster spot, Valaika was called up, not Frazier. (According to teh Fay, it was because Valaika had a higher batting average at the time. Frazier had a better OBP and OPS, but Valaika’s higher average won the day.)

I think it’s clear that Dusty trusts Cairo more than Frazier at 3B. As long as there was hope for the Reds, Cairo got the bulk of the playing time. When he was healthy, anyway.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Frazier -

I just flat out like this kid.
I hope he gets a chance…

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

me too

I think he’ll see plenty of time @ 3B & LF

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 9, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

the only question

is whether it will be in Louisville or Cincinnati.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 9, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh Ye of Little Faith...

What’s that Bubba…Oh yeah I forgot for a moment that Dusty is still the manager…

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

bring back Narron and Knight and Boone and ???

all in all, i can live with Dusty. he takes a bad rap here. some of his in-game decisions can be questioned (like all managers) but the fella has fostered a great work environment. some of that can be attributed to the quality of people on the 25 man roster, but i don’t see an overabundance of leadership in the lineup/rotation.

Give em Hell, Johnnie B!

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Jan 10, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Good points

I love me some Dustbag too
But he’s such an easy target!!!

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Jan 10, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

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