Can the Reds do something on the international scene?
Keeping the pipeline of cost-controlled talent flowing is critical to succeeding as a small or mid-market team. It's especially important for the Reds, given their outflow of talent during this offseason's trading frenzy. It's going to get harder with the amateur draft and international signing period spending caps under the new CBA. In addition to the two supplemental picks, they'll receive in the 2012 Amateur Draft, the Reds still have the chance to re-stock their farm by staying aggressive in pursuing international talent.
The new CBA, which phases in winning-percentage based spending limits over several years, limits teams to spending $2.9M during the 2012-13 period - which begins July 2, 2012. Spending above that limit is subject to penalty. Players that have logged a certain amount of time in an MLB-recognized international professional league and have achieved free agency, do not fall into that void. MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo explains:
Players in leagues deemed to be professional (those in Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Cuba apply), are at least 23 years old and have played a certain number of years in those leagues can be signed without the money counting against the pool. Yoenis Cespedes, the 26-year-old outfielder who is a free agent after defecting from Cuba for example, would not count against the pool. Neither would Japanese pitcher Yu Darvish, should he be posted by the Nippon Ham Fighters. But the money spent on Cuban left-hander Aroldis Chapman, who was 22 when he signed with the Reds almost two years ago, would have counted against the pool.
International players, especially those with limited scouting information behind the veil in Cuba, carry plenty of risk. In some cases, you can't even be sure of their actual name and age. Fausto Carmona (nêe Roberto Heredia) may be an outlier, but there's a mountain of uncertainty that can stem from the long-tail development of teenage players and the myriad cultural and baseball adjustments that must be made by importing talent.
Still, with the domestic free agent market largely wrung out and the Reds' newly-slotted draft order set, the international market has promise. While they have several million to spend on international free agents toward the 2012 budget and could move some money around to make a splash, it's highly unlikely that they have the financial backing or appetite to do it. With that in mind, we can ogle at a few pages of the proverbial Sears catalog below, before returning to our lower-back breaking work in the information mines.
The top Japanese free agents and posting candidates have all either signed in the AL West, with the Orioles or returned to the leagues they played in last season, so the remaining focus has coalesced mostly around two exciting, toolsy Cuban outfielders and somewhat less so on their younger and more pitching-inclined countryman.
Yoenis Cespedes
Cespedes gets high marks for his "feats of strength," unleashing a barrage of highlight reels and waterfalls of scout drool at his 6.3 60-yard dash and 45-inch vertical. He'll be 26 this year and, in theory, just hitting his prime. FanGraphs used a random-number generator to ballpark his value this season, weighing his speed, defense and translation of his astronomical offensive numbers in Cuba, at 2.5-3.5 WAR.
He's the top international position player talent at the moment, so that information alone should price the Reds out; let alone the fact that the Marlins are aggressively courting him. But that's exactly the thinking that made acquiring Aroldis Chapman seem absurd in late-2009. Cespedes has been expected to get Chapman money in guaranteed dollars. He's going to get at least $20M in base salary, with the likelihood of eclipsing Chapman in total contract value. Something like $30M in guaranteed money, with a bonus that pushes the contract closer to $40M, is not out of the question.
Those are eye-popping figures, but his 2012 salary could be in the $3M-$5M range, which is within the Reds' means. I just don't think they want to make another Chapman-like outlay, especially with the deferrals and budget tricks that might be required. They've done more than enough of that recently, with Chapman's contract itself spreading out over ten years. But, hey, what about deficit spending against future World Series earnings?
Jorge Soler
Soler is a 19-year-old from Havanna who does not (yet) have the physical freakishness of Cespedes, but has room to grow and a full tool shed. There are plenty of teams who are springing at the chance to sign lock in a player who may have more eventual upside than Cespedes at a lower principal. Given an ETA around 2015-2016, Soler will be cheaper, at least in gauranteed salary, and would be a solution for the Reds prospect depletion, rather than their immediate lack of outfield depth.
Soler has been linked to the Rangers, Yankees and other big-spending clubs, so it would be the same bidding environment as Chapman and Cespedes, even if there would be less of an outlay. Soler would be a restricted free agent under the new CBA, but not until July 2. Jim Callis of BA expects Soler is expected to get a richer contract than the $15.6M given to Leonys Martin.
If the Reds could find a way to afford Soler, though they would likely overpay in money, contract complexity or both. It might be worth it if they judge Soler to be the best international prospect available to them for the foreseeable future and can spend on him before the clamp-down.
Gerardo Concepción
Like Chapman, Concepción is a Cuban lefty who defected while playing in a tournament in Europe. He's 18 years old and has logged just one season at Cuba's top level. He's rumored to be very close to signing with a big league team - quite possibly this weekend - but there's been no reports of Reds' personnel traveling to visit him in Mexico or the Dominican. However, the Reds have a history not only with Cuban lefties but with Concepciónes too. Also this article explicitly mentions "los Rojos de Cincinnati" and never mind that it was a just in the context of a passing Chapman mention.
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I wonder if teams will start to scout more heavily outside of the big Latin American countries with the impending caps
Most teams are aware of a guy like Yorman Rodriguez and engage in a bidding war when he becomes eligible. But if you can find a guy on your own, maybe you don’t have to spend as much.
Law was speculating that the new market inefficiency
is Domincans over 16. Apparently the going rate to sign a 16 year old is much higher than even an 18-year-old. Speculation is there may be a bunch of late-bloomers who can be had for cheap (or, in the new scheme, wouldn’t trigger a bidding war.)
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
I don't like Cespedes swing even a little bit.
He has big power, but generates it with a great deal of effort. I can see him being a big-bodied, dead pull hitter who will struggle against advanced pitching, especially offspeed stuff. Wily Mo maybe?
I am intrigued by the Indians international approach, generally signing eschewing big-money signings for less-expensive players. They also concentrate on pitching and up-the-middle types and aren’t afraid to sign a kid who’s 18, rather than rolling the dice on 16-year-olds.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Jan 27, 2012 12:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Nobody liked Vlad Guerrero's swing, either.
Not saying there’s even a small chance he could be comparable in skill to Vlad, but you just never know.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 27, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Does Marquez, the 16 yr old Venezuelan pitcher the Reds signed this year
go straight into the farm system, or does he stay in Venezuela?
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
Likely pitches in the Dominican
Summer League for a year or two before coming to the U.S.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Jan 27, 2012 12:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't really see a scenario where the Reds sign any of these guys
and I’m not sure I’m that beat up about it. I think Cespedes is wildly overrated. He’s a 26 year old with lots of tools who’s gunna cost a lot of money, and he’ll spend half the year in AAA. We have very little info on his medical history, or how his game will translate from Cuba.
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
I think it is crazy that he might get more money than Chapman.
22 yr old LHP >>> 26 yr old OF
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
Inflation is a bitch!
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
a nickel says he's really 29
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Cuba does a pretty good job of record keeping.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
by Yossarian22 on Jan 28, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
With his age and the bonus
Cespedes is going to be considerably overpaid, if not overrated.
That’s why I’d be partial to the 19yr-old Soler, if the hype is justified. The book on him is pretty light, but he’d give the Reds a chance to sign one more elite talent before spending is capped. That could make a big difference, especially with a depleted farm and a budget that doesn’t allow the team to fix deficiencies by spending even more money on major leaguers.
You’re right though, this is FantasyLand.
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Bootsy, you're a superstar right?"
"Twinkle, twinkle, babble."
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 27, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
when guys like Goldstein say he's the best prospect from Cuba in 30 yrs
That means quite a lot for his tools. He also had a .400 OBP in Cuba, which some people say is as good as AAA. 2.5-3.5 WAR is probably an under bid. Wily Mo comps are ridiculous because that’s 1 tool vs. 5
I don’t sign him unless he dips under 15 mil.
@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!
by Dave from Louisville on Jan 27, 2012 6:30 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
you don't sign him at all
but I thought Cuba was considered more like A+ or AA
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
The 23-year-old thing is interesting.
I wonder if teams will organize an affiliate league in the Caribbean to make sure their players are developing the way they want, and then formally sign them at age 23. Like make sure the 16 year old signs with the Rojos de Bani, and then if he’s doing great you can bring him up to the States young and if he needs more time to develop, you could bring him up after 23 and not have the money count the same way.
The structure of the Caribbean Series is there, but I’m wondering how tethered it may become to MLB. Or if it’ll be more like soccer, where the “big teams” buy the contracts of the “little teams” best players.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
"The Brief and Wonderful Career of Oscar Wao"
They’ve kinda done this with the foreign rookie leagues.
But I’m not sure how you could have the assurance that you have exclusive rights to the player while still skirting the restrictions on money, unless they’re not considered “international” somehow or the Bani team signs an exclusivity agreement with the Reds but the Reds are using them as a proxy.
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Bootsy, you're a superstar right?"
"Twinkle, twinkle, babble."
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 27, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Where is everybody?
I’ve got 2 hours of work left and I’m bored to all hell. Someone entertain me!
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
they're probably all on Twitter
Or, you know…meeting people in real life. It’s dinner time on Friday night and all.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Cali boy
Why don’t you smoke your medical marijuana? That should “burn” a few hours for you.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 27, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
because I'm at worrrrrrrk!
that stuff is for evenings and concerts, holmes.
Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me
Waiting on the evening to start. Got a 30 pack of high life on the way and a concert to go to later.
That much beer could literally last me at least a month if it was just me. I love being a light weight. It’s economical.
You rascal
All day long, I was looking forward to having a beer with dinner. I went to the fridge to get it, but I was clean out. I drank Bert and Ernie berry juice instead.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 27, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, do you even have kids?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Watching you grow up is going to be one of my favorite things, and will teach me so much
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Can the Reds do something on the international scene?
Since Big Bob liberated Egypt

maybe he should think about bombing Iran.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
clever move bolding the first words instead of using a title.
Also: yeah…
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
It's almost like he has a handle on things, no?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 28, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
HEY YOU! WHAT ARE YOU DOING TONIGHT/THIS WEEKEND?
are you reading Brian Phillips’ amazing story of Tom Molineaux? The one about a freedman American fighting the English boxing champion in 1809? YOU SHOULD BE.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
We don't get along at all
but the hatesex is incredible.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jan 27, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
There is a good movie in there
And fentanyl ain't that like super-morphine for elephants and soldiers with their head blown off
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Jan 27, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Something I just realized
Joey’s pretty much guaranteed to be starting at first for the All-Star game this year.
The secret, is to hit the computer with a hammer
And LaRussa's gonna manage the NL.
Yup.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 28, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
You didn't realize it back when I stated it a few days ago?
YOU MEAN YOU DON’T MEMORIZE ALL MY COMMENTS???
by the finest muffins on Jan 28, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
wouldn't you be kinda creeped out of somebody did?
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
by Yossarian22 on Jan 28, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
crap
Maybe without the Pitcher Whisperer he won’t kill us this year.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I thought Dave Duncan was on leave
and could return this year.
"You know when I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink".-Bill Hicks
by Yossarian22 on Jan 28, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Duncan's not coming back this year
He understandably wants to be with his wife as she battles cancer. Derek Lilliquist, the bullpen coach, was promoted to pitching coach. He was part of the Braves’ rotation before the Glaving/Maddux glory run.
oh, it did not
You were boozing it up at a dance club with LB, you just said so!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
it's not a done deal yet!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
































