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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Dang. Reds lose 3-0, wrap up losing season.

The Joe Nuxhall Memorial Honorary Star of the Game

 

What can you say about Edinson Volquez that we haven't said a thousand times?  Here's something I'm not sure has been mentioned enough:  after today's effort (7IP, 6H, 3ER, 1BB, 5K), the Wagon reached a total of 196 IP for the season between the majors and the minors.  No, those innings weren't that great, and no, he did not perform at a level that would make his hindsight happy with turning down a 4 year, $16 million deal this offseason, but that's a full, healthy season in the books in which he finished strong.  Want to know exactly how many innings he threw in his breakout 2008 campaign?  196.  Now that it's his bionic arm doing the work (and since we know there's little to no chance he's going anywhere), here's to hoping this is his token Post-TJ season to work the kinks out before returning to ace form.  In a game this miserable, the only real Honorable Mention goes to Wagon's compatriot in Post-TJ odyssey, Jose Arredondo (1IP, 0H, 0R, 2K).

 

Key Plays

 

  • In a game that was by any account unnecessary and superflous (Super F. Lewis!), the biggest story and highlight came in the bottom of the first.  Jose Reyes, clinging to a slim lead in the NL's Batting race, put a bunt down the 3rd base line and reached on an infield single before being pulled by the Mets.  Mets fans were less than thrilled, booing after what may be Reyes' last AB as a Met.  He could have "pulled up lame," a la BP last night, but that would only hurt him in his first voyage into free agency.  My take?  Well, I just hope Ryan Braun goes 5 for 5 tonight and makes it irrelevant.
  • Oh yeah, the Reds played their last game today!  Guess what?  Edgar Renteria singled to shallow center in the 1st before being stranded, Chris Heisey led off the 2nd with a double before being stranded, Paul Janish (Paul Janish!) walked and was stranded in the 5th, and Joey Votto walked and was stranded in the 6th.  That's it!  That's unfortunate...
  • The Mets, on the other hand, managed to scrape across a few runs against an, all things considered, effective and efficient Edinson Volquez.  Remember how I mentioned that Volquez only walked one batter?  Well, we all know walks will haunt...and it did.  Wagon walked Willie Harris in the 4th, and following a David Wright infield single, Harris scored on a Nick Evans single.  Mets lead, 1-0.
  • Wagon cruised through the 5th, but hit trouble in the 6th.  Following an infield single by Josh "Lace" Satin, Mike Baxter smoked a 2 run HR to right field.  In a game that was the polar opposite in terms of excitement and anxiety from last night, that was that...Mets win, 3-0.

 


Star-divide

 

  • With the loss, the Reds finish the 2011 campaign at 79-83.  Yay! (2004 edition.)
  • Joey Votto (29 HR), and Jay Bruce (97 RBI) finished just shy of a few significant milestones.
  • Through 4 seasons as manager of the Reds, Dusty Baker now has a record of 322-325 (.498).  Through 4 previous seasons as manager of the Cubs, Dusty Baker had a record of 322-326 (.497).  Here's to hoping the Dusty era as Reds' manager ends with less animosity and more celebrations.

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HA!

Respect my authoritah!

by BigBadBruce on Sep 28, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're doing God's work

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Arredondo. They were shining there for you and me, for liberty, Arredondo.

by DTFH91 on Sep 28, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The next installment in Fay's series

is on starting pitching.

He says he thinks the Reds will make a trade to get a SP.

"You want quality, not quantity," Dusty Baker said.

"I think there’s definitely a need for us to be better at the top of the rotation," pitching coach Bryan Price said. "We’ve got plenty of candidates to pitch four and five. But I think we’ve really got to make an effort to identify somebody to be No. 2 quality or to fill that role. It’s not easily done. It’s not inexpensive. It’s a challenge. Those guys aren’t sitting all over the place."

Starting pitching was the main failure of this year’s team.

Reds’ starters went a combined 50-54 with a 4.47 ERA. Last year, Reds’ starters went a combined 57-44 with 4.05 ERA. The failure came at the top of the rotation. The Opening Day starter (Edinson Volquez) and the Game 2 starter (Travis Wood) spent much of the year in the minor leagues. The No. 3 start (Bronson Arroyo) finished 9-12 with a 5.07 ERA after going 17-10 with a 3.88 ERA last year.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 28, 2011 8:45 PM EDT reply actions  

That's got to be Shields.

It has to be.

If not, then Cain, Pineda, Romero, or Latos.

BTW, did anyone know that Mike Leake was had the 27th best WHIP in all of MLB (minimum 140IP)? I knew he had a solid year, but that’s damn good.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Sep 28, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

All of those would make me happy.

Pineda is probably the best bet, because shit, the dude’s only 22 and still has 5 years of control. But he’d also be the priciest. Latos is 23, but kind of a dick. I’m not thrilled about rooting for a dick.

And Boss TWood was the game 2 starter this year? I had no idea, genuinely.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Sep 28, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

if we trade for a starting pitcher

What do we give up?

Would Walt really trade Votto for Pineda?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 28, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any trade for a pitcher would be expensive

player-wise. I’d imagine most teams would be going after Alonso or Chapman, because of their long-term team control.

Would you, or anyone else on here, give up either of those guys for the right pitcher? I don’t know if I would. Probably would depend on the pitcher in question.

Respect my authoritah!

by BigBadBruce on Sep 28, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

the crux of this is whether or not you, me, or the Reds (well, mainly the Reds) think Votto will be back after 2013.

If they have serious inclinations that there’s no way Votto comes back, then yes, you trade what you have for a pitcher like Shields, Cain, etc. If that means you trade Yonder/Grandal/Wood for them, you do it, because for the next 2 years it gives you a better chance of winning what you want to win.

If they think they’ve got an inside track on Votto being back beyond his current contract, you can let it slyde a bit until the trade deadline next year to decide whether what you’ve got works or not.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Sep 28, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good points

And I agree. Hopefully they have a better inclination than Votto just saying “I don’t know,” lol.

Respect my authoritah!

by BigBadBruce on Sep 28, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trade Grandal/Bailey/Heisey for Shields

Chapman should start the season in AAA as a SP.

by Bray Juice on Sep 29, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Leake was had?

Rawrrr!

That's what she said!

by Raven Riley on Sep 28, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

you passed up "rooting for a dick" for this?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 28, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Mark Buerhle?

I don’t know much about him, but noticed that his numbers seemed decent and he is very durable.

IF (BIG IF) Volquez did just have a crappy season because of TJ, and returned even to decent form, then a rotation of Cueto, Leake, ______, Chapman, and Volquez sounds pretty encouraging.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Sep 28, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good Rob Neyer article on batting titles and taking a seat

here. Marty mentioned how Griffey tried to do a similar thing in ‘76, but Bill Madlock had a bunch of hits in his final game to take the title. I’m definitely rooting for Braun tonight.

by ken on Sep 28, 2011 9:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Good God....

Don’t they know I don’t want the Cardinals to make the playoffs?!

Respect my authoritah!

by BigBadBruce on Sep 28, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rays still breathing

1 run game

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 28, 2011 10:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice pic of Joey and Reyes

But I got to admit that my brother may be right about Votto looking a bit like Bill Murray in “Stripes”

by Red_Poodle on Sep 28, 2011 10:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Holy hell, the Rays have tied it up with the Yankees

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 28, 2011 10:50 PM EDT reply actions  

wait what

what are you doing you, you, you Open Thread monger?!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Sep 28, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

down to their last strike...

I cannot believe this game

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 28, 2011 10:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Fucking. Cardinals.

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 28, 2011 11:41 PM EDT reply actions  

WTF Braves?

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 28, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously

on the plus side, y’all better beat some D-Back ass now.

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 28, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dbacks won the season series. The low delivery by Hudson and the goofy over the top delivery by Collmenter seem to baffle them. Cards go to Philly. I have no idea what happens there.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 28, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Collmenter learned his delivery by throwing hatchets.

This is true and undeniably awesome.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Sep 29, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

For real

This is the most underrated story of the baseball season.

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.

by -ManBearPig on Sep 29, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone notice JJ Hardy's numbers

I guess getting away from the NL Central pitching and going to the mushy AL East helped him. Or he’s streaky. Or both. Or whatever. I miss him though.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 28, 2011 11:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, crolfer... it could be worse...

You could be like me and be an alumni of The university whose model citizen head coach and star QB are forced out by NCAA violations and leave the program in shambles, be a fan of the NFL team where the star QB has been alleged in multiple rape/sexual assault cases, on top of our shared anguish of the cosmic letdown of the 2011 Reds.

by Nasty N8 on Sep 29, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Poor guy

you are a fan of the Steelers and the Buckeyes

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.

by -ManBearPig on Sep 29, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

So... even though the Reds have long been eliminated from the excitement of tonight,

Is everyone enjoying this feast of exciting meaningful Game # 162’s (and for that matter, this last week)?

Because remember, if the structure that’s being suggested for the playoffs were instituted, none of these games would matter because Boston would play TB and Atlanata would play the WLB’s regardless.

by Nasty N8 on Sep 28, 2011 11:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I feel terrible about the Cards WC

Because it makes it even more obvious that we shouldn’t have given up so fast

by Red_Poodle on Sep 28, 2011 11:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I disagree...

What should/could we have done at the trade deadlines? The Braves’ collapse and Cardinals’ hot streak have coincided to create an EPIC FAIL that has only happened once before in modern MLB postseason play (and might happen once more before the evening is out).

by Nasty N8 on Sep 29, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just got the impression

The team packed it in after that Mets sweep but I guess they just didn’t have what if takes

by Red_Poodle on Sep 29, 2011 12:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I get the feeling this team packed it in

When they started planning their Memorial Day weekend plans…

by Nasty N8 on Sep 29, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I’ve been thinking that, too.

OTOH, they gave up a lot. Traded Rasmus for pitching. Traded one of their best prospects for Rafael Furcal, who makes $11 million a year. And it looked like it wasn’t going to work.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

They could lose Albert

That would make us feel a bit better about ourselves maybe

by Red_Poodle on Sep 29, 2011 12:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They gave up a lot...

…to have a chance to win the World Series. I’m gun shy about trades, especially trading exciting prospects. But the Cardinals making the playoffs this year largely vindicates the trades they made, and if they go far or win then they will know that whatever it cost was completely worth it. Plus a winning team only makes more money the next year, because fans can be confident in them.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Sep 29, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

should be interesting to see what Walt does this hot stove season

Everyone seems to be expecting him to be active. He has to be. I think it’s clear the Reds can’t fix all their problems from within.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do the Reds have owneship of Votto's and Cueto's DNA?

Because I think we may be able to solve our problems from within the organization…

by Nasty N8 on Sep 29, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

hey

The South American “developmental academy” – well, you heard it here first.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is fair, but in this case

the Reds were way, way farther back than the Cards. They had zero chance of winning the division, and it still took a massive choke job by the Braves for them to get in.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's definitely true,

but the Reds really stood pat at the trade deadline while we all heckled the Cards. And who knows if the same fate would have come to pass had the Cards not made those trades, but the Reds certainly were a lot closer then (6.5 back, three games under .500). Not saying it was the Reds year at all, but the Cards definitely showed the value of not folding even when things seem to be over.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Sep 29, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't even know who they gave up for Furcal

but I thought it was a nobody.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alex Castellanos

An outfielder. He was not a top prospect before this year, but he’s hit well enough this year that I think he might be on next year’s lists.

Lotta speed, lotta power. Could use a little more patience.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The value of Alex Castellanos is insignificant compared to the upgrade at shortstop that Furcal provided

Castellanos wasn’t considered a top prospect at all, although his recent performance with LA minor leagues has been very strong. In additin, the Cardinals will only pay about $1.38 million of Furcal’s salary. All in all, this was an excellent mid season deal the Cardinals made. (via)

The Rasmus trade, on the other hand, did work. Of course, one may not think so in the next few seasons, but it’s hard to doubt that the team wouldn’t be at this state without Octavio Dotel or Edwin Jackson.

No one expects GERALD. F. LAIRD.

by hr on Sep 29, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh. My. God.

AGAIN WITH 2 STRIKES

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 28, 2011 11:59 PM EDT reply actions  

woah

Orioles

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 12:01 AM EDT reply actions  

wow, just wow.

they’re gonna be talking about this night for decades

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 29, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not only Pap blowing the save, but Crawford in left unable to make that catch. I feel bad for laughing at the kid in the Sox outfit with the long face though.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hahahaha

this has all been beyond awesome.

We're all mad. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.

by chesirecat on Sep 29, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Crawford has been horrible

His missing that catch is just the perfect ending to his horrible season.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Longo is a hell of a player

I gotta crash

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 12:08 AM EDT reply actions  

REJOICE, fans of baseball!

This has been a beautiful night! Even the little Cardinals situation can’t sully it.

by Gapper on Sep 29, 2011 12:13 AM EDT reply actions  

agreed

This has been the most amazing baseball night I can remember.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

that was great

But it’s not like it was in doubt. We knew it was going to happen, the only question was when.

Last night was just nuts. We’re not getting even tiebreaker, let alone two, but I don’t mind. It was about as exciting as a fan could hope for.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 6:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

True

Exciting games. Now we root fir ghd Phillies

by Red_Poodle on Sep 29, 2011 12:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And might I add,

none of this would have mattered if there were 2 wild cards per league. Granted, there may have been close finishes elsewhere, but one of the reasons people were floating for changing the playoff format was that these races were ‘over’ by mid-August.

Bollocks, I say.

by Gapper on Sep 29, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Buttocks I say!

Kevin Youkilis: If I were to go anywhere, I would want to go to Cincinnati .

by Madville on Sep 29, 2011 1:17 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Is that really the best buttocks you could find on a quick search of the interwebs?

Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.

by brown11b on Sep 29, 2011 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Erardi thinks the Reds should cut BP loose after next year

Actually, I think he might be channeling Slyde’s brain. :-)

Teams like Reds must play the odds

The article also says Coco should not be re-signed unless he’s willing to accept $4-6 million a year. It suggest Volquez as a possible closer.

It also suggests trading Chapman, because the Reds are not going to get their $30 million worth from him over the 3 years they have left.

Perhaps the most interesting part it at the end, about the Rays.

Anybody who thinks the Reds can’t compete with an $85 million payroll should check with the $43 million-payroll Tampa Bay Rays, who won the American League wild card early Thursday morning.

…Despite a payroll much less than the Yankees and Red Sox, the Rays have now knocked the Yankees or Red Sox out of playoffs three times in four years.

Don’t let anybody tell you a team can’t compete with an $85 million payroll.

But what teams without deep pockets must do – and those who have sustained runs of success like the Rays actually do — is not be afraid of making hard decisions.

The Rays let Carl Crawford (the biggest star in franchise history) walk, traded a playoff hero (Matt Garza) and rebuilt an entire bullpen.

If you don’t have a big budget, you have to do that every year – and hope that you are making the right calls, get some luck, and trust the process.

I’ve been thinking that if the Reds want to win, they have to make some tough and likely unpopular decisions. Trade Chapman? Let BP walk? Trade Votto?

I’m not sure Walt has the stomach for that kind of thing. And I’m not sure it makes economic sense. The Rays have terrible attendance – only Oakland is lower – despite fielding a competitive team. They average 18,000 per game, compared to 27,000 for the Reds. Lots of good seats still available during last night’s game. They had trouble selling all their postseason tickets that year they made the World Series.

Not sure why, but I wonder if part of it is that when you make those tough decisions and trade your stars, the fans don’t bond with the team. And you might end up fielding a winner…but still not selling a lot of tickets.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 7:07 AM EDT reply actions  

The Rays can't draw fans to the ballpark

because they play in an airplane hangar and not a ballpark.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 29, 2011 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Never been, but I'm told that it's also poorly located

Plus it’s in a part of the country that’s been ravaged even more than most economically. Miami is big and wealthy enough to support a big league team, but I’m not sure if Tampa-St. Pete was ever a good idea. Then again I’m not sure if any other realistic market is a significant upgrade.

But congrats to the Rays for pulling it off last night. Man, I wish I had stayed up for that.

by ken on Sep 29, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's poorly located

I drove past it all the time on my way to spring training games down there. It seemed very conveniently located to me.

It is a pretty lousy place to play baseball, though. Hate the white ceiling and all those catwalks.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess we'll find out

The Marlins think the reason no one goes to their games is that it’s too hot and humid in Flordia. Hence the new, air-conditioned stadium.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Sep 29, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

Walt doesn’t seem to get attached to players. It’s Banana Bob and his desire for a big happy Red family that concerns me.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Walt doesn't get attached to players

how do you explain the trades for/signing of 5 former Cardinals players (in two years), 3.5 of them totally useless?

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Sep 29, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point,

but in those cases I think he saw a chance to get guys he knew about and though still could play, but who would come cheap.

And it’s not like any of those 5 players broke the bank. Renteria was the only one who cost more than $1 million, and he’s been OK pretty good awesomez!

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm intrigued by the idea that was floated by the M's blogger about Votto for Pineda

Straight up, that’s an unbalanced trade, but if they included a very good reliever and a good prospect or two, I’d do it.

Pineda is already a #2 starter and has ace upside, plus 5 years of team control left. And the money saved could be spent on a top-flight LFer.

I’m also not opposed to the idea of trading Chapman for a #2 starter, although I think that could be tougher to do.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

This will not go over well here, but given the situation I would trade them 1-for-1

The Reds have someone available right now that can replace ~85% of Votto’s numbers at 1B, and starting pitching is always more valuable than hitting, especially at 1B.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that Alonso exists shouldn't matter, though.

Like I said below, Pineda carries a lot more risk and is much less of a lock to be awesome, while Joey is pretty much guaranteed to be MVP quality the next 2 years.

The 3 extra years of team control makes a difference, but 1-1 still wouldn’t be fair for the Reds.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't know how to respond to this comment/logic

If you’re trolling me, bravo. My head just broke.

Of course having Alonso matters because he creates the surplus from which you deal in order to gain a player that mitigates your team’s weakness.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think what he's saying is

While Alonso creates the possibility of trading Votto, that doesn’t effect the actual value of the return for such a trade.

I think.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 29, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

That third queen (which I think is Alonso, if I’m reading your metaphor correctly) can potentially be made into a perfectly suitable jack if need be. What we really need though is an ace.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 29, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

FG: They still have no pitching. Goodin’s a question mahk. …You don’t recover from those rotator cuffs so fast.

JS: I’m not worried about their best pitching. They got pitching. …They got no hitting.

FG: No hitting? They got hitting! Bonilla, Murry. …They got no defense.

JS: Defense? Please. …They need speed.

FG: Speed? They got Coleman. …They need a bullpen.

JS: Franco’s no good? …They got no team leaders.

FG: They got Franco! …What they need is a front office.

JS: But you gotta like their chances.
 
FG: I LOVE their chances.

by The 25314 on Sep 29, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yonder is the queen (gurllllll!), but I should have used Ace instead of Jack

I’d love to have Pineda to pair with Cueto, and I would trade Yonder 1-for-1 to get him.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, Yonder or Votto?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

whoops, Votto

I would trade Votto for Pineda with the understanding that Yonder steps in at 1B.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if you are at all good at cards

you don’t just give away that Queen, especially if you know another player really, really, really wants it.

This is a bad analogy anyway because only 1 player wins at cards, whereas a trade is ideally win/win.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I struggled to find a good analogy

But just to be a smartass – I guess you’ve never played blackjack and pushed. :P

Now for the seriousness – Compare Pineda’s numbers this year as a 22 year old with Verlander’s first full season in 2006 and tell me you wouldn’t trade a guy who WILL be leaving in two years for him. Oh, did I mention that the trade would free up $9 million on next year’s payroll that could be used to chase a FA LF?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Listen, I agree. I'm the one who brought the whole thing up here.

I’m just saying that the Ms would, in all likelihood, give up a few players in addition to Pineda for Votto.

And if that’s the case, Walt shouldn’t settle for a 1-1. Also, the risk inherent in a pitcher means I’d like a good bullpen arm or minor league pitcher in addition to make it more even.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I'm the M's I'm not sure I make a Votto-for-Pineda trade

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I'm saying is that from the Ms perspective, Alonso is irrelevant.

Votto is/should be worth more to them than just Pineda. Walt shouldn’t accept just Pineda simply because Alonso is around, especially if he could get a few more players in addition.

Basically, Votto’s trade value to the other 29 teams has little to do with Alonso….at least if Walt is at all competent.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then you are looking at it wrong

The Braves shouldn’t trade away Tommy Hanson for pennies on the dollar just because they have like 11 grade-A prospects who can take his place.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Sep 29, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not wrong, in a different way

It’s my belief that you deal from surplus to fix deficiencies. I’d much rather get Pineda for Votto than two picks two years from now.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is all hypothetical anyway, so why not compare?

What are the other options anyway? Do you believe Votto will sign a new deal in two years? I don’t.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

He most likely won't

But my point is that the Reds have more possible futures than the two you listed. It’s not either-or. One of those possibilities is that Votto leads us to a World Series. Another possibility is that he leads us to two World Series.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 29, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not without pitching, he won't

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes there's a tension between getting a deal that improves your team and getting the best deal possible

I agree that Votto is worth more than Pineda, even accounting for contract issues. But there’s also little doubt in my mind that the drop-off from Votto to Alonso is much less than the gains our pitching staff would see with the addition of Pineda. And that’s before accounting for all the saved money. IOW, the deal would improve our team.

In a liquid market with a good deal-maker, the Reds could shop Votto for the best price and get a better offer (Pineda + X). But MLB isn’t a perfect market, and there are a variety of reasons why other teams might not value Votto as much (such as the wrong spot on the success cycle, which is probably Seattle’s case). So it’s possible that the Reds wouldn’t do much better than Votto for Pineda, straight up. In which case, I’d still pull the trigger.

by ken on Sep 29, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me and this feller agree, he just uses tha words better'n'me

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree with this.

But because the Reds don’t need to trade Votto, and actually have a number of reasons not to, I’d think they could get a better package than Pineda straight up.

If that was the deal, I wouldn’t hate it, but I don’t believe for one second that Walt couldn’t get more than that this offseason.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, and not to go all Yossarian on you here

but I’m a bit concerned about his peripherals. A 36% groundball rate doesn’t really excite me too much, especially because the Ms stadium doesn’t give up gopher balls nearly as much as GABP. Also, the .258 BABIP.

I’m just really afraid that we’d be trading our MVP for another #3 starter.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

9.1 K/9?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but 36% is scary low.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel ya, I'm just pointing out that he also strikes out over 33%

What IS a good gb rate?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys who have it above 50% are considered "groundball pitchers"

And the Reds two guys who are considered more “extreme” flyball pitchers, Arroyo and Homer, are at 40% and 42% respectively for their careers.

It’s possible that rate could go up. Chapman, for example, both Ks a ton and gets a high GB rate. I’m just saying that I’d rather see a high GB guy with fewer strikeouts (Cueto) because a guy like that will probably have more success in GABP and in front of the Reds IF defense.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed on getting GB pitchers considering the park

His FB rate should be around 34% too, right? Is that terrible?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, a typical line drive rate is around 20%

So assuming that’s where he is, that’s 20% LD, 36% GB, making it 44% fly balls. That’s a lot of flyballs, and more of them would be homers in GABP than were in Seattle

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 30, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot about the strikeouts, no?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 30, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ks don't count as batted balls

because quite often they miss the bat all together.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 30, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

quite often they miss the bat.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Sep 30, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

COMMON

has nobody here seen Airplane!?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Sep 30, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen AN airplane.

Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?

by andromache on Oct 1, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Almost Jared Weaver low!

It’s a concern but by no means a deal-breaker for me.

by ken on Sep 29, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

5 years of a #2

for 2 years of Joey or any other 1st baseman seems like a bad deal for the Ms to me.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

No way

Joey is an MVP with years of success. He’s basically a lock at this point to be awesome for the next 2 years.

Pitchers carry so much more risk. Also, Joey was worth 7ish wins this year, while Pineda was worth 3-4. If you think those are even remotely accurate, Joey is twice as valuable of a player, and is much more likely to maintain that value going forward.

A 1-1 trade would not be fair to the Reds.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure pitchers are risky but they’re also a much more scarce commodity, at least the ones that are top of the rotation. I don’t think the certainty of Joey overcomes the big tilt in favor of the Reds if Pineda is a #2 for 4 years or so.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

This.

Also, Pineda has been a #2ish pitcher for 1 year. Votto has been all-star level for 4 years and MVP level for 2.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Sep 29, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Votto was 24 when he had the first of his 4 straight all-star level seasons

Pineda was 22 last season.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. He's the deal.

Big dude. Great minor league numbers, and has already shown the ability to get ML hitters out. Five more years of cost control.

by ken on Sep 29, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which doesn't contradict my point

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Sep 29, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The more I think about it

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Sep 29, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think that the Hamilton/Volquez deal plays into this equation?

Imagine the fan backlash if Votto were to be traded for Wagon 2.0

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.

by -ManBearPig on Sep 29, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Starting Pitching....

Except for Cueto, of course. I sadly anticipated this late last year when noticing how many of those starters were pitching over their heads. And at what point are we going to finally concede that Homer Bailey is not a good starting pitcher?

by tonywf on Sep 29, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

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