Red Reposter - Now that we are so damn sure that Yonder can't play LF, what are we supposed to do?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 11:34 AM EDT
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I won't even comment on this
I just don't know where to start. Apparently after three games, Dusty Baker has seen enough of Yonder Alonso in left field to conclude that he can't hack it. I just...I won't even comment on this. -
Ask Hal:
Q During the off-season is it in the Reds’ best interests to deal Yonder Alonso — or maybe Joey Votto? — Scott, Miamisburg
A They both play first base, and there is only one first base, so something has to give. So far, Alonso has shown he knows which end of the bat has the most hits. But they can’t relegate him to utility duty for two more years while Votto is here. One must go, and believe it or not, keeping Alonso and trading Votto might be best. Votto only signed a three-year deal and is eligible for free agency after his contract expires. He’ll be unaffordable to the Reds, and Alonso will be much cheaper, and maybe (a big maybe) as productive as Votto. For sure, though, one must go.
I'm not sure what to think about the amount of play this "Trade Votto" discussion is getting. That's not to say I'm completely against it (I'm not), but rather that I'm really surprised that so many, especially people like Hal, are so open to it. I guess I'm so used to being on the vanguard that I'm taken aback when it turns out I'm more mainstream than I thought (/condescending smirk).
But more to the point, I'm just wholly unconvinced that the Reds can strike a fair deal if they decide to trade Joey Votto. According to FanGraphs , Joey is the 7th most valuable player in baseball today. There just aren't many players out there that are better than him, or even as good as he is. There is a reason that players like him are never traded. Teams know that they cannot get a fair deal, whether in prospects or in major leaguers. Again, I'm not philosophically against it, but pragmatically I just don't see how it is possible.
I'd trade him for Justin Upton. -
Video - Ken Rosenthal sports ridiculous bow tie; doesn't think a Votto-Bautista trade makes any sense
for Toronto. And he's got a point - Bautista is under team control for another three years after Votto's deal is done, and at a pretty good rate. -
Just to make sure
Joey Votto was asked if he would consider moving to left field to accommodate Yonder Alonso. He's been asked this many times before, and has answered the same way every time. "I think I’m a pretty good first baseman," Votto said. "And I think one the best attributes as a team is infield defense. We have four very good — and obviously at second and third — great defenders."
It's certainly not unprecedented for an MVP-caliber player to switch positions (Pete Rose, Robin Yount, and Alex Rodriguez come to mind), but respect for and comfort of the player are taken very seriously in baseball. And that's not a bad thing. If Joey was willing to try it, it might be worth checking out. But this is ultimately a non-story.
Scott Rolen is feeling better after his shoulder surgery
The question is whether or not he will return to play some baseball this season. "I have aspirations of returning this year and they have aspirations of me returning this year," he said. "It is less than a week from surgery and I still have to strengthen it, but we are going to rehab it correctly and see where we are and play some more baseball. When we get to that point, we'll make a decision."
I have a feeling that in a month or so when this debate becomes a bit more meaningful, the Reds will be 12 games out and realize that it doesn't make sense for him to play a week and a half of meaningless baseball. We'll see you in spring training, Scotty.
Seth Smith hit two dingers off of Homer Bailey
and the Rockies scored five runs off of him in the three paltry innings he threw last night. It's worth mentioning that the rain delay is the official reason he didn't go deeper into the game, but he was getting hit around pretty hard in the short time he was in there. Time is running out for Homer Bailey. He is out of minor league options, so he can't be sent down to AAA again without being exposed to waivers. He is only 25, so he's still relatively young, but certainly the hope was that he would have it figured out by now. Perhaps he never will. Or perhaps the shoulder injuries this year have had a greater effect on him than he and the Reds are letting on.
Either way, his position in the Reds rotation is a tenuous one at best. Maybe he would perform better out of the 'pen, or with a change of scenery, or after an off-season's worth of healing time. It doesn't so much matter now that the season is all but over, and the Reds can keep running him out there every 5th day in the hopes that he can straighten things out. But the Homer Bailey as Reds' Ace of the Future story will probably remain unwritten.
Dennis Janson at the KY Post fires a sharp criticism Dusty Baker's way
Baker made the decision to go with a sick Johnny Cueto on Saturday and the consequences were universally negative. Cueto didn't make it out of the 4th inning and the already beleaguered bullpen was taxed yet again. There are many reasons why this years' team will not make the playoffs, "but like the pitchers he has so often let dig too deep a hole from which to extricate themselves, Dusty Baker's inexplicable player decisions have cast the 2011 Reds too far down the shaft for them to finish any better than third," according to Janson.
The bullpen is gassed
"Fatigue is setting in on everybody," Baker said. "It’s not called the Dog Days of August for nothing. You’ve got to battle through fatigue and be in better shape than the opposition. We need some deeper games from our starters." Those short games from starters in April and May are bearing fruit, and a bitter one it is.
Trade Rumors passes along a few Reds-related bits
Kevin Youkilis, Cincinnati native, UC alum, and current Boston Red Sock, says he would love to play for the Reds someday. It'll probably happen eventually, but really only if/when Youk isn't the MVP-caliber player he is now. Still, it'd be kinda cool.
Also, the scuttlebutt is that Reds' top pick Robert Stephenson is leaning towards going to Uni Washington instead of signing with the Reds. It's impossible to know whether or not this kind of thing is a negotiating ploy on his part or a sincere expression, but the deadline to sign draft picks is next week. I guess we'll know then.
ESPN Sweet Spot ranks the best teams in the National League over the past however many years
Schoenfield stacks up the '75 Reds against the '86 Mets, the '04 Cardinals, the '98 Braves, and this year's Phillies to see which team was the best. The Cardinals and Braves did not win the World Series, but they won more than 105 games, which is particularly dominant. He ranks them position-by-position and the Original Big Red Machine crosses the line last. This whole thing must have been stupid to begin with.
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Not in the near future
at either LF or 3B? I guess it’s brush and roller time for Mr. Yonder.
alonso is not a lf, period
That was clear when he was drafted. I think he was put in lf at louisville to increase his trade value. I don’t understand why people think he can play the outfield.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
I see your point
but how can showcasing him for two months in a position all the scouts know he can’t play increase his trade value? Either the GM made a big mistake or the manager ain’t entirely on board with the plan, flawed as it may be.
more of a hope really
Ryan Klesko came up in Atlanta’s organization as a first baseman, but they had Fred McGriff. Like Alsono, Klesko was in the Babe Ruth mold of athletes, but he played left field passably enough to earn a spot in the line up for his bat.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
by Yossarian22 on Aug 9, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's a pretty
good comparison.
by Joe Nolan's Neckbeard on Aug 9, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, I think that's a great comp
Klesko slashed what could be expected, in a good-case scenario, from Alonso if he stays healthy and his power develops a little more: .279/.370/.500.
As far as I can tell, Klesko only played 18 games in OF in the minors before becoming a full-time MLBer. But he also stole 20+ bases in a season twice in the majors and once in the minors and was a better-regarded prospect (not that Alonso isn’t in the same league). I think the difference is that Klesko’s bat had a higher ceiling and he probably had significantly better range.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Klesko isn't the greatest comp in my mind
Besides being more athletic in general, Yonder probably isn’t going to match Klesko’s offense, IMO. Though he could get close. Billy Butler maybe?
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I think Butler is a pretty good comp
Similar body type. Slow. Good eye, line drive power. Lots of doubles, 20-25 HR. Sucks at defense (or doesn’t have to play it at all)
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Now that you've spelled it out, I like the comp even more
though to be honest, I think Butler is the high end for Yonder’s offensive abilities. I’d be quite happy if he turned out to be a Butler clone.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
It's not that I think he can play LF well
but if Jonny Gomes and Adam Dunn and Carlos Lee and Carlos Quentin and Old Ken Griffey Jr and Jermaine Dye and Raul Ibanez can play in the OF, it’s certainly worth finding out whether or not Yonder Alonso can meet that low bar. His bat is good enough that it’s worth it to find out if you can get him in the lineup in any way possible.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
at the very least let him play lf this year, to work on his hitting
it will do one of two things, either help him develop his hitting skills to take over 1B next year if Votto is traded, or show him off to other teams so he can be traded this off season.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Maybe Dusty, player's manager that he is
is worried about Yonder becoming a laughingstock in LF. Remember, he blamed the media for crushing Janish’s confidence. (Whether that makes sense doesn’t matter. It’s clearly the kind of thing Dusty worries about.)
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
that is a good point
or maybe Walt doesn’t want to damage his trade value by making him a laughingstock in LF. Then again, that probably wouldn’t damage his trade value since many buyers would just put him at first
yeah, the second part is my feeling on the issue
teams will trade for him to be a first baseman who can hit.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
This is a good point
Potential trade partners want to see him crush the ball in the majors. I don’t think it matters whether he looks bad playing LF defense in the meantime.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
coming from a team that sucks ass in 1-run games
other teams will probably view the Yonder-in-LF experiment simply as a struggling club grasping at straws trying to get back in a race by putting all their bats on the field. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn’t hurt his stock one bit.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What I find most alarming about Bailey is he isn't miss bats. (Note I posted this in the game wrap thread, which is close to dead, and it fits well here too)
a 5.9 k/9 rate this year; that combined with a 39% ground ball rating, is not recipe for success.
His velocity has dropped down to 92, MPH this year. Even more, he has rarely thrown harder than 95 this year, so even if he has a lower cruising speed, he doesn’t hasn’t been throwing 96 or 97 when he has a batter 0-2, or is in trouble
He was most successful at the end of 2009, when he had his best velocity. That year he averaged over 94 MPH, and look at the high end, it is far above any other point in his career.
The now defunct SBNation site, Drive Line Mechanics, broke down Bailey’s mechanics a few years ago and said that it puts too much stress on his shoulder, and over time he will break down. That has always stuck in the back of my head. With the combination of injuries and his loss of steam on his fastball, I kind of wonder if they were on to something.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Hard to say
whether he or Phil Hughes has had more “success.” Hughes has had the excuse of injury, I guess. His numbers are a lot uglier, but I don’t get the feeling the Yanks are giving up on him.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I guess this is what they mean
when they say there’s no such thing as a pitching prospect.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I always thought that it was they were one pitch away from labrum surgery.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
This dude I know tore his labrum and his dad convinced him it was called his labia.
It was pretty funny. He’s a 300 pound college offensive lineman who was walking around telling everybody he had torn his labia.
Miguel Cairo is so last week.
Trading Votto..
seems like one of those deals that could result in a century long curse for a club. That said, I understand the reasoning, but I still hate it. I hate the thought of it. Honestly, my fear right now is that the trade talk will piss Joey off-push him to 1. demand trade. 2. leave after his contract is up.
all that said, i have no clue about Yonder. If he says, and he did, 3B is more natural, have him work on it later, but for now he needs to be in LF regardless of D.
all that said, I’m sorry Mr. Sappelt. I don’t know where you go for now..
the trade talk is coming from the media.
he should realize just because it is in newspapers doesn’t mean it is true.
He also should realize that he is an employee of the Reds, and that when he only signed a market rate extension that covered the remainder of his team control anyway, it opened him up to be traded.
Also if he isn’t traded before his contract ends, why would he be pissed and leave because of “trade talk”? I am guessing that almost every player who is on a major league roster and/or is a well regarded prospect for any period of time is the subject of trade talk.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
tHan and i support trading votto
For the right package, of course.
And we are almost always right when we agree with each other!
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Aug 9, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i support trading Votto too
I wouldn’t trade him in a fire sale, like Colby Rasmus. If nobody offers the right players keep him.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
you both agree on EV, don't you?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 10, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Votto is gone anyway
Reds can’t afford 7 yrs 175M or whatever…
by jeffshireman on Aug 9, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
i also don't think the first part makes as much sense now
Babe Ruth was traded at a time when teams had control of players for their entire career. Great players are not as valuable now as they were 40 years ago because the reserve clause does not exist.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
The Reds can't get equal value for Votto
But that doesn’t mean that it’s not the best thing to do. The dropoff from Votto to Alonso might not be so great. If Votto is traded for a middle-of-the-order bat who can play LF, the team could be better overall. And, if that LFer is cheaper than Joey, that frees up money to improve elsewhere. I believe that trading Votto is the right thing to do.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
by poojols on Aug 9, 2011 12:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Alonso's ceiling is pretty similar to Votto.
Read this scouting report…
Alonso always has shown very good plate discipline and a balanced swing. He can hit to all fields when he’s right, with a feel for getting the barrel of the bat on the ball. His swing is more geared toward line drives, and he can hit the ball to the opposite field well, but he can turn his good raw power into game power when he looks to pull the ball, enough to project him to be a 20-25 homer hitter with a high on-base percentage. He also has shown some aptitude for making in-game and in-season adjustments, which will serve him well in his transition to the big leagues…. Alonso’s bat path has been more consistent this season, he appears to have his bat control back and he’s staying on the ball longer against left-handed pitchers, all encouraging signs that he can keep hitting them well.
Miguel Cairo is so last week.
What I don't like about trading Votto is that a good team needs stars, and they're hard to find
Sure, you can construct a playoff team with a lineup full of slight above-average players but that’s hard to do. Chances are that someone gets hurt or just has a bad year. When you have a 6+ win guy like Votto, that buys you considerable flexibility. I’m not in favor of trading Votto unless the return is overwhelming, and I doubt that’ll happen.
by ken on Aug 9, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
totally agree
But I feel obligated to add that there’s always the hope and the chance that you can land 3 stars by trading one (like the Colon for BP, Lee, Sizemore deal).
Speaking of, I sure hope our FO is more adept at handling the fruits of a trade like that than the Indians were. Yikes.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 2:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In Cleveland's defense, they got several good years out of Lee
and the beginning of a great career from Sizemore, before he got hurt. Two out of three ain’t bad. And to be honest, maybe Phillips needed to fail before he found stardom.
by ken on Aug 9, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone has this confused
Cleveland doesn’t need a defense of that trade, because it was maybe the biggest ripoff of all time in their favor.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
1) If it may make more sense for the Reds to keep Yonder because he's cheaper for longer,
couldn’t the same argument be used that he’s a more valuable trade chip? Shouldn’t “which one would the Reds rather have” = “which one the other 29 teams would rather have”?
2) I’m in Seattle now, which is great because I love it. But should I also become the Crolfer to U-Dub’s Oreo package and ensure that, unless Bob Steve is a big fan of The Road or Nine, has nothing to look forward to in the Pac Northwest?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
#1 is a valid point, however
Teams typically value the proven commodity much more. Although it is possible that teams would value Alonso’s team control more. I guess we’ll find out.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I mean, I understand "its so rare a top player gets traded"
but its also so rare a top prospect gets traded. And they’re usually intertwined. I haven’t been paying attention around the league to who’s the best MLB-ready player. But Yonder has to be close.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Probably depends on the team.
A small market team (like the Reds) will really value the fact that Yonder is cheap and under team control for a long time. But the Yankees or Sox (I know they’re both set at 1B, just examples) would rather take the guy who’s a sure bet to be a 6-7 WAR player for them because price is less of an issue for those teams.
Miguel Cairo is so last week.
If LA can get its house in order
LA would be the perfect destination for Votto.
Loney’s bad is barely good enough to be a middle infielder, much less first base. I don’t know what their minor league system looks like right now, but they have historically been a pitching rich organization, that doesn’t seem to ruin every pitching prospect they touch. They have two top rate young arms under control for a while in Kershaw and Billingsly.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
I've thought of this before too
Vin Scully and Dodgers fans seem to covet Votto anyway, so they might be chomping at the bit
I think some of it is also a Loney v Votto thing
In 2002 Loney was taken with the 19th overall pick, and Votto went to the second round, both are approximately the same age.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Verducci argues
that prospects/young players are overvalued now. Teams like the Yankees and Red Sox should value sure bets more than youngsters – but they aren’t. They’re hoarding their prospects just like small-market teams.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Just curious...
What do you think it would take? It sounds like the SOX are considering letting Papi walk, which would open up a spot for Yonder or Votto. Youklis would be a great fit for the Reds over the next couple of years.
Would Yonder + Grandal/Mesoraco do it? Would that even make sense?
third base or left field
He doesn’t seem to mind moving around.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
at the very least
we need a backup third baseman not named Miguel Cairo or Paul Janish. Youkilis could be that guy. He could play LF when he wasn’t playing 3B. He’s played all over the place for the Sox: 1B, 3B, corner OF, even some 2B.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
i love it!
Where do I sign? Oh wait, its not my team. Keep forgetting that.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 2:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I wouldn't give up that much for Youkilis
he’s only signed for the next two years. That’s too much.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Like I said in this morning's FO
This organization is both confusing and frustrating the hell out of me right now.
First of all, the pretending that this team might still win something this year is ridiculous. Why else would they care one bit about getting Rolen back on the field? I can understand him wanting to play this season, but the org too? That makes no damn sense.
On that note, it’s great that Todd Frazier is getting some extended PT at 3B, but I really doubt it will continue. I don’t know why, I just don’t trust them to keep him there.
It seems like Sappelt will get a good look in LF, but he really does seem like another Heisey type to me. Probably good for a CFer, but the bat isn’t going to hack it in LF. Yet they’ll probably stick him there because they desperately want a traditional lead off hitter.
Then there’s Alonso. I don’t care if he definitely can’t play LF. If that’s true, why did they waste a full season playing him there? And why did they give him a grand total of 3 games there now? And WHY IN THE HELL are they putting him at 3B when he hasn’t played there since HS? And for that matter, if he won’t see the field, why is he on the team? Just send him back to AAA. The handling of him has been unbelievably bush league.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I'm pretty bummed about both Frazier and Yonder's handling.
Walt is being positively O’Brien-esque in his ability to make tough decisions. Either he has something batshit crazy underneath his sleeve or he’s just not being a strong leader. I’m afraid it may be the second.
(if someone turns this into a political discussion, I swear to the God you do not believe in I will not be happy)
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
shut the fuck up
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
ha
i actually didn’t even think of politics until Cy told me not to, then i had to think of something.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Don't think of an elephant
I think “shut the fuck up” is about the level of dialogue right now.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
rec'd!
You’re leading this site like an effective Commander-in-Chief, ’KRP!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Invade Viva El Birdos
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
, island nation of
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Walt called them up, but he can't necessarily make Dusty play them
I think the odds are decent that Dusty gets canned this winter. There’s an gaping disconnect between the manager and FO.
by ken on Aug 9, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think we can be sure there is such a disconnect
but it sure looks like it. And with only a year left on the deal and after a disappointing and underachieving season, it certainly is looking more and more likely that we won’t have Dusty to kick around here much longer.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Ironically, the best thing he could do to keep his job for 2012 is to stop “trying to win ballgames” in 2011
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 9, 2011 3:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think Dusty is in jepordy, at least not yet
But if the Reds don’t make the playoffs next year I am guessing he is out.
Mostly the reason I doubt he loses his job before 2012, is why wouldn’t he have been fired already? If they didn’t believe he was the guy for 2012, they could have fired him in July when this team was in free fall, in the hopes that a new manager “shakes things up”. The fact he is still here tells me he will be here to start next year.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Sappelt in LF reminds me of Posednik
Useful, but not exactly what you hope for from LF.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
by poojols on Aug 9, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If we didn't have Stubbs, I'd be thrilled with the possibility of him as a starting CFer
But I think his ceiling is probably about .280/.340/.420, which is great, but I’m not convinced he’ll get there. If he does more like .280/.330/.400 I’m not so thrilled about him in LF.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Right.
I think offensively they will probably have similar value. But Stubbs is a significantly better defender. And I wouldn’t want Stubbs in LF either.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Alonso
I don’t think he can play LF. But you’re right that it doesn’t really matter right now. There’s probably been an internal disagreement about whether he can play the position, but they’ve handled it poorly. Even if giving him reps in the majors was just the baseball equivalent of “weather-proofing,” you still need to run him out there because he wasn’t called up to sit the bench – and to let everyone know hey maybe he could still be a LF, rather than publicly admitting failure.
Since I don’t think he’s an OF, I think there’s an at least slightly better chance he could be passable at 3B, though they already tried that in a past spring. But it makes ZERO sense to do that in the majors, especially with Todd Frazier up also.
I still think this is all for show and Alonso is a traded man walking.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So Either play Sappelt all the time in LF and send Alonso down
or let Alonso keep playing out there in favorable match-ups and outfield footprints.
But what they’re probably going to do is scatter a few more Alonso appearances in LF, have him pinch-hit and maybe throw him in a late September or blow-out game at 3B.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep. And that does nothing for his future MLB readiness nor for his trade value
They’ve handled it about as poorly as possible.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Since I think he needs to be traded for pitching this offseason
and I suspect teams were onto the fact that he isn’t a LFer a while a go, it doesn’t bother me too much. But having him flail around in the majors and not keeping up the bluff just looks bad.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
didn't the Reds learn anything from how they handled Homer Bailey?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 11, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Regarding the apparent social acceptance of Votto trade talk
I wonder if any of that has to do with bitterness. The arguments for the trade here have been quite rational and make a lot of sense, but I wonder if some of he willingness to talk about trading Votto from guys like Hal, Fay and apparently many fans (if you go by Twitter and article comments) has to do with feeling jilted by Votto. More accurately, they want to avoid being jilted by Votto when he becomes a free agent by jilting him first.
That is a confusing, sociological argument with little evidence but I’m starting to get that general feeling from some of the trade comments. That is not to say trade talk does not make sense, but I’m surprised by the lack of resistance from fans.
So you think, we want to break up with him before he can break up with us?
Nothing succeeds like failure.
I think the biggest turning point I personally have had this year
is a shock at the lack of professionalism among the Reds media types now that McCoy is gone. The announcers openly hate the people who play for the Reds and the writers don’t know much about how the game has evolved since the Big Red Machine. The entire town can’t get over Pete Rose, and nobody will ask Walt or Dusty a difficult question.
Someone has to get jch a press pass.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
well, Cy, you may have to re-define your "lack of professionalism."
jch may ask the savvy, difficult questions, but you and I both know he’ll be asking them without pants on.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's hard to dodge a question when it comes with a boner
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Aug 9, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Ichiro had started playing MLB at like age 20
instead of age 27-28 he would probably break Rose’s hit record
No ML team would've given him a starting job that early
It’s been jarring to see him this bad this year. I feel like it’s the official end of the aughts decade.
by ken on Aug 9, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
in/re Votto
I think some of it also has to do with him having a “down” year. (note: we all know he’s still kicking ass, but hear me out).
Each of his first 3 seasons as a full-time MLB player saw him continually improve to the point where he was a .330/35/110 guy and an MVP leading a team to the playoffs and signing for big money.
The first year afterwards, his numbers have dipped and the team flat out stinks. While you know, I know, and the rest of us interwebby baseball nerds full and well understand that it’s not his fault and that he’s still performing amazingly well, I think a lot of people will want to point at Votto’s 2010 as the peak and outlier rather than something he can improve upon.
Maybe they’re right…who knows. If that’s the case though, there’s a lot to be said about selling high. Hell, just ask NFLX about that.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
these are good points too
he hasn’t had the power numbers this year and maybe that is enough to make it easier for some fans/commentators to let go. Selling high is always preferable too
I think there's a good chance that last year was an outlier
Simply because few players can OPS over 1.000 regularly. I think Pujols is the only player who does it. Even A-Rod doesn’t.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
could be
But I think it could also be cold, hard rationality. The Votto deal made it clear Votto doesn’t want to stay here. We’re looking at losing him anyway. If we keep him and trade Alonso, what are we going to do about 1B when Votto’s gone?
Also, Joey hasn’t been the player he was last year. That makes the thought of parting with him less painful. Maybe it would even be selling high.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Yep. A small market team doesn't have room for sentimental attachment to players
If (BIG if) they can get fair value and gain either financial flexibility, more team control, or both by trading Votto, they need to do it.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
yes it really seems like the worst thing
would be to pay Votto major bank in his third year then see him walk in free agency without getting anything of value in return.
I like everyone else here, I’m sure, have an attachment to Votto. He not only came up through the organization, he led us to the first playoff appearance the franchise has had in years. Seeing him go would hurt, but it doesn’t have to be ugly—for either party. Also, we can always say to the team which is lucky enough to get him “you’ll never be the first”
the only sense i can get of the extension from the reds perspective is
they hope it will build some good will so they can extend him in the future.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
I am so sad
because I agree with everything you’ve said. It kinda sucks that MLB has to work this way (or if not have to, that it does).
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Trade Votto IF AND ONLY IF we're out of the race by the '13 trade deadline
I don’t care who we’d get in return. We have a perennial MVP candidate. Those don’t grow on trees. We certainly don’t have another one in our system.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
that's a great way to get micah owings in return
we waited way too long to trade dunn, i hope we don’t make the same mistake with votto
by 'tHan on Aug 9, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
Also, trading him, if done right, would likely extend the “window for winning” from 2013 to 2015 or further.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 9, 2011 2:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You don't trade a superstar until you have to
It all goes back to trading “sure thing” for “maybe”.
It’s always a bad idea.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think anyone is saying trade him for the best prospect in the International League
I will only trade him for players who can help the Reds now at positions of need.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Exactly. Trade him for a couple Alonso types--
That is, very high floor, safe bet guys with all-star upside, who are MLB ready, at positions of need. Of course, a deal like that could be hard to find, so fine. If you don’t find it, don’t trade him.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 9, 2011 4:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
RR is a place with lots of level-headed thinkers
man, you couldn’t have this dialogue in many places. Even though this is one of my least favorite dialogues, it fascinates me at the same time.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
hhhhmmmm
I think Yuengling could have chosen a better celebrity than Darren Crazy-Ass Daulton.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Mmm.... I could go for a frosty green one right now.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here, buddy.....same here
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
My brother brought me some OTR last night
I’d never had it. It was pretty good, for a pale ale.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a Moerlein fan at all
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Isn't that the beer I bought you at the Machine Room?
I thought it was.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 9, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 9, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm
Well, it was pretty good, for a pale ale.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i had three last night, on draught
Greenwich village is an odd, odd, odd place.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Aug 9, 2011 2:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
nom nom
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
but they love him in PA
and he has the DUIs to back their product!
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 11, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's an idea....
Instead of trading Votto, try to extend him this offseason! I think I argued last offseason that we should have just gone year-to-year with him. One of the reasons I gave was that we’d be buying high on him and that we were likely to get a better deal if we’d wait a year.
That year has passed, but he’s got his extension already. As I expected, he’s played well, but not otherworldly. He probably sees now that he’s in for a great contract, but probably not a record-breaking one. He senses the fan backlash at the thought that he’d leave after his current contract is up, which he brought upon himself, no matter how much he tried to talk it down last summer.
Is there any chance at all that Walt could capitalize on all the trade Joey talk? Could he go to Joey and say, “Look, we know there’s a sentiment among the fanbase that we trade you because Yonder is ready and they think you’re going to leave after the three years are out. You’re our guy, and we want you to be for a long time. Let’s tack another three years onto that deal (at a reasonable price for the Reds), and I’ll send Alonso to LA and get us some pitching and you won’t ever have to hear about it again. Sign on the dotted line, and he’s gone tomorrow.” Any chance at all???
I doubt he goes for it
if he wanted to give away years of free agency, he would have last year, I am guessing Walt offered him a 5 or 6 year deal at first. I see no reason for Votto to change, and while he isn’t an MVP this year, he is still one of the top hitters in the game.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
This appeals to me on a gut level
The negotiating positions have shifted a little, just by virtue of the fact that Joey isn’t going to hit 30 HRs this season. But I’m still pretty sure Votto wants to test the market when his time served is up. A dip in power aside, he knows there’s going to be at least one offer out there better than an extension from the Reds offered over the next two years.
I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that Votto leaves Cincinnati after ’13, but the Reds absolutely have to know how likely it is prior to the ’13 season. That argues for hanging onto Alonso until thenand trying him out at 3B or some shit. But I would still trade Alonso this offseason if he was necessary to a deal for a SP, because a 1B bat is a lot easier to replace.
I much prefer seeing the Reds try to compete over the next two years with Votto in his prime than see them risk an underwhelming return and see them try to compete with Alonso adjusting to the majors and OBPing 50 points worse. It’s probably myopic, but we’ve waited too long and too long for a player like Votto to trade him one year out from an MVP season and division title.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
This is my feeling
We haven’t had a player like him since Barry Larkin or Eric Davis. I can’t think of a better centerpiece for the next two years.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 9, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Centerpieces are nice for marketing
But if they can get 2 very good young players, who are MLB ready, at positions of need, they have to consider it.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 9, 2011 2:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"MLB ready" is a tricky thing
If you trade a star for two prospects (no matter how close they are to ready), BOTH of those guys have to be as good as you hope they hare. Not one, BOTH.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
True.
The alternative is to play with this exact same team for 2 more years, then go back to sucking when Joey walks.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 9, 2011 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Both our scenarios suck balls.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I truly hope so
But first, I will need to see major changes in our rotation.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
"risk an underwhelming return"
you make it seem like be mere talking about trading Votto, that they have to. If the return is underwhelming, don’t trade him.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
No, I'm just trying to be realistic how those trades tend to go
while not giving the FO the benefit of the doubt.
The decision to keep Votto happens alongside the decision to trade Alonso, so you would decide to trade Alonso knowing that, when the time came to trade Votto, it would be difficult to get fair value and you might be desperate.
But, if we’re speculating, you’re right – assume a good trade.
The definition of “return” is also imprecise. Unless it’s Votto for Bautista, the return on Votto is going to carry more risk than what the Reds gave up. I’d tolerate less risk because I think the Reds can win now, but the trade might still be a “win” for a team trying to rebuild.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to be a lawyerly dickwad here
My feelings probably boil down to “don’t trade our precious Votto,” but I recognize that a good deal is a good deal.
Dealing Votto now, while trying to be competitive in ‘12-’13 seems contradictory, given the teams that would be trading for him, but if you could somehow get back an ace-caliber SP and an MLB-ready position player, that would be the ideal.
Which makes it all the more contemptible if Alonso languishes on the bench.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What I'm worried about is if we try to shop Votto quietly
and some dickhead team decides to let it out that we tried to, Votto would get pissed and request out of here.
Cingrani for 2012 Closer!
then send him out
we act like he is some sore of sacred child. He is a baseball player, they get traded. It is part of the business, that risk is in return for a job most of us dream of, that pays millions. Who here wouldn’t trade their life for Votto’s? I would like to believe he is smart enough to realize that is part of the game.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
i don't believe i have ever seriously sad that
i could give you a long list of brilliant people who never went to college.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
American River Junior College
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
He didn't go for long, he made his ML debut at the age of 19
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I really don't think Votto would mind
Especially if he’s traded to a contender.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
We would mind
I don’t think he would.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
see my magic 8 ball idea from yesterday
Yunel Escobar and Ricky Romero!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 9, 2011 2:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You trade for Ricky Romero, and he'll spend all his time bitching about the Cadillac you owe him
You filed it, that puts me over the fuckin’ top, I want my Cadillac. I don’t wanna hear no fuckin’ shit and I don’t give a shit. Lingk puts me over the top. You filed it, it went downtown, now you owe me the car.
Okay I'm pretendin that my tongue is all goin crazy.....man hee hee this is kinda fun
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 9, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Just trade Votto, Homer and Stubbs and get it over with
pick up Hanley, Stanton and Josh Johnson and let it flow from there.
Cingrani for 2012 Closer!
I just don't get how we can't teach a fucking professional athlete to play LF
Is his ability to run that bad? Isn’t this something he could work on throughout aug-sept and then the off-season? You have one of the most talented hitters in the whole organization, and you can’t figure out how to teach him LF? Fucking pathetic imho
I think you underestimate the razor thin margin for error in the major leagues
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
redreporters just showed how hard it is to play the equivalent of frontier league wiffleball
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Aug 9, 2011 2:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We made Yonder Alonso look like Willy fuckin' Mays on defense.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
We made this kid look like Willie fuckin' Mays
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 9, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
After my performance, that picture should be my avatar
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 9, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
His ability to run is that bad
and what jch says is true. More athletic players than Alonso have flunked out of LF.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 9, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
Sean Casey with the best coaching in the world could never play left field at the major league level.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
I mocked the guy who was twitter insulting Sam LeCure, and before he deleted his account,
he let me know that he “gets more ussy” than I could dream of.
Which, to be fair, is probably true. It’s not really something I dream about.
Listen to my grawling.
Well, this page is now refusing to fully load, and suddenly a woman's voice talking about a man with too much pussy started coming out of my speakers.
I have a feeling these things are connected to this.
Listen to my grawling.
It's ebaumsworld, so of course the page sucks
It was a local news reporter talking about police arresting a guy because he had “more pussy than he could handle”. There were kitties in the background.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
he meant
he has a subscription to Cat Fancy magazine.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Aug 9, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like it when dudes use the term "pussy" that way.
Mostly because I can snicker to myself and think “HAHA THAT GUY JUST USED SYNECHDOCHE!”
Listen to my grawling.
by andromache on Aug 9, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Anyone who won't type out the word "pussy" is a ucking ouchebag.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I hear
It’s lovely this time of year. (Safe, don’t worry)
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
In terms of game theory
I believe the Reds should either trade or not trade Joey Votto based upon whether the Brewers are able to sign Prince Fielder and the Cardinals with Albert Pujols.
The main goal for the Reds should be to win the NL central every year, thus increasing their overall chances of winning the World Series. To achieve this goal the Reds should be reactionary to how the Brewers and Cardinals handle the off season
In terms of Reds having enough revenue to keep Votto, I believe the completion of the casino, the Banks project along with the smaller projects around the stadium should help increase overall revnue of the Reds in order to keep Votto.
This is in response to several people, so I am putting it here
A key part of the argument that is missing, is what if the Reds get a piece for Votto that helps them contend next year. Be it a pitcher, shortstop (not terribly likely with Cozart, though still possible, and should be left on the table), or third baseman (not at all likely with Votto, but again should be strongly considered). Cincinnati doesn’t have to trade Votto for AA prospects who will arrive on the scene in 2014.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Ok, so we trade Votto
now Alonso plays 1st. What happens when Soto is ready?
Cingrani for 2012 Closer!
We see that he's not particularly impressive for a ML 1B and he either learns to provide some utility by playing the OF or we trade him
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I really wish people would stop deleting/hiding threads just because I comment in them
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
payback, bitch
Ha!
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Aug 9, 2011 2:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
... and leo is getting larger!
Individuality: Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else.
Remember the offseason banter about trying to acquire Jacoby Ellsbury?
His current line of .319/.374/.516 (5.5 bWAR/5.9 fWAR) would’ve looked mighty nice in LF this year.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Was that a real rumor, or just crap we made up?
Yeah, that would’ve been nice.
by ken on Aug 9, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a difference?
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 9, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a Red Sox fan posted the idea here and we ran with it.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Odd move
Wood recalled; Ondrusek to the DL.
I guess Wood will pitch in relief, as I would think even if they wanted to make another move for Wood to go into the rotation, they would have called up a reliever in the interim.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
but why would they call up Wood today?
They could call up somebody like Fisher for a few days, until Bailey is rested.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
but, why?
he could be the last guy in the bullpen for a couple of days.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
A couple of things
The first argument will be lost on the likes of you, but here it goes anyway. He has been pretty solid this year in a small sample size, outside of the 3 games he pitched in 10 days after he threw over 90 pitches against Philly (something his arm was not prepared to do), he has been excellent.
Also, even if he does “suck” i would rather have a full bullpen with the 7th guy being shit, than a short bullpen. He can still help in a blow out or a long game.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
i like how every defense of a player starts with "outside of"
outside of all the hits carlos has given up, he’s never allowed a hit
by 'tHan on Aug 9, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but, this is a resonable defense
it has probably been years since he approached 90 pitches in a single outing. So it stands to reason to believe that it probably took him a couple of weeks to get his arm back.
I mean it is like saying, the worlds fastest man lost 2 hours after running a 20K, so he sucks.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Yeah, he doesn't suck
in fact, in the Fisher fan club (membership: me!), I’ve been claiming that he really is not much worse than Ondrusek, for example. Or maybe even Masset. He needs a fair shot before writing him off as sucky.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
That was far from the party line a month ago
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
And the opinions of many Reporters, apparently!
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
so for you
there is no difference between a pitcher being “cooked” and “sucking”. To me Masset and Ondrusek are two solid bullpen arms who are probably burnt out for the year and need some time off. Both would be much better if they weren’t over used.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
I agree
they would be better with more rest. I don’t know how you picked out that argument from my words. I think if they all played a full season, Fisher would come out slightly worse than Masset, and about the same as Ondrusek. That was my argument.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
outside of all those extra outings, they weren't really overused
by 'tHan on Aug 9, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When you are in the mood to be assy
you are really damn good at it.
I mean that as a compliment.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think Masset and Ondrusek have higher abilities than Fisher, and if all things are equal are better
both are cooked for the year though.
I think Fisher could be a useful in Arredondo’s role, but thinking he is anything more is probably deranged.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
except that Wood has been pretty awful in Louisville
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Ok so LF is a bust for Yonder so
Play the guy at 3b…more than 3 games please. And let Frazier play some 2B too.(BP could really bring some good pitching). I would think that the powers that be would want Alonso in the line-up for a bit just to make sure he really can hit consistently at the MLB level.
I wouldn’t be trading nobody right now.
"A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyer." - Robert Frost
Who are these dingle berries and why are they going to be at the Reds game Friday?
TV’s Sprouse brothers?
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
they are?
I am convinced those Suite Life brothers are going to be washed up and acting in raunchy comedies for the rest of their careers
You must not be a 12 year old girl
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 9, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
neither am I
but if you read EW you have to read about how highly rated crappy Disney tween shows are
Weren't they in the Adam Sandler comedy "Big Daddy?"
Or was that some other kid? Like Li’l Anakin Skywalker?
Lineup
Sappelt LF
Renteria SS
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Hernandez C
Frazier 3B
Willis P
I’ll be 3 rows off the CF fence…Lets hope Flocka can get his first W as a Red.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Okay, Edgar batting second and Frazier batting 8th is pretty funny
I can’t wait for ’creds to see this.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
And a shot FC off the P that scores a run
All about results!
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
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