Red Reposter - Skipping right ahead to September
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 12:16 PM EDT
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It's August 31, the eve of expanded rosters. With Louisville's season coming to a close on Monday, word is that the Reds will be calling a handful of cadets up tomorrow and the rest after the Bats wrap. Since thinking about the team's future is significantly more appealing right now than thinking about the present, here's a full list of everyone on the 40-man roster, but not the 25, and thus eligible to be called up as soon as tomorrow:
Position players:
Juan Francisco, 3B
Yasmani Grandal, C
Jeremy Hermida, OF
Chris Valaika, IF
Kris Negron, IF
Pitchers:
Jared Burton, RP
Carlos Fisher, RP
Jeremy Horst, RP
Matt Maloney, SP/RP
Jordan Smith, RP
Daryl Thompson, SP/RP
Edinson Volquez, SP (RP?)
Travis Wood, SP (RP?)
Unless I've miscounted, the 40-man roster stands at 40. So in order to add Devin Mesoraco and get him some garbage time, the Reds will either have to put Scott Rolen on the 60-day DL (as recently as a week a go he was still trying to return this season) or DFA someone. If you think Mesoraco is definitely catching in Cincinnati to start the 2012 season - and that's become murkier since the end of July - then you're going to face this decision in the near future anyway, so you might as well get it over with now for the sake of Snacks getting some MLB experience.
Given the pitching fatigue and uncertainty for next year, Reds should go ahead and get all arms on board by Monday. (I'd like to see Volquez or Wood starting in Arroyo's spot, but that's unlikely). Bonus Reposter prediction game: Who gets called up tomorrow? Then who's in the second wave? I'd say that Grandal, Burton and Negron are the only three that have less than even odds of eventually getting the call.
- John Fay has it from the horses mouth
Unfortunately, the horse is muzzled and has an oat-bag and a bit in its mouth. We don't know who the call-ups are going to be, just that there will be "quite a few." It was revealed that Brad Boxberger, Nick Christiani, Donnie Joseph, Travis Webb, Grandal, Brodie Greene and Cody Puckett will be playing in the Arizona Fall League. This might be an early indicator that Boxy is getting a look at joining the Reds' bullpen sometime in 2012. I've got him down as a sleeper to break camp next spring. - Mark Sheldon recaps a Night to Forget
There was one interesting - or perhaps just puzzling - bit from Arroyo on his 2011 struggles: "Going 9-15 with 22 quality starts in '07 wasn't real fun. It's more frustrating when you continue to pitch well like Cueto and Leake have and don't win ballgames. I haven't really matched the quality starts I've had over the past five seasons so it's a little easier to swallow. Regardless, you'd like to go out and perform better than you have." This probably has to be taken as an effort to shake it off and pull the old athlete canard of only caring about wins and losses and the team's fortunes. But it's tough for me to believe it's more frustrating to pitch well on a losing team than pitch poorly on a losing team. - Tom Groeschen sat down for 5 questions with Hunter Pence
On July 29, Pence was traded to the Phillies. On July 30, I cleaned my bathroom. On August 1, Ramon Hernandez did something. At some point Yonder Alonso joined the team. Hope they find a position for that guy. I guess he has plenty of time since he's new. On August 13, I bought a new dish strainer. - A serious breakdown on Ronald Torreyes
Doug over at Reds Minor Leagues has a deep in-depth, pitch-by-pitch look at Torreyes' recent performance against the Great Lake Loons. Doug rates his plate discipline as above average for his age and taken with his microscopic strikeout rate the outlook is bright. He's had a remarkable year, but there's some concern about his ability to lay off the high stuff. Tell him to Just say no and to be Above the Influence? - Joe Nuxhall, Waite Hoyt are both up for the Frick award again
I hate to play this dog-eared card, but if either of them had called games in NY or MA they'd be Fricked up years a go. - It's the blessed 10,000th "day-versary" of Pete Rose’s 4,000th hit
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I'm curious to see if Burton still has "it", whatever that may be.
He’d be a good guy to have back if he’s the same person he was a few years ago, at all. Of course, he may just be a redneck Arredondo, as well.
The Reds are almost certainly going to call up a third catcher; every team does in September. So my guess is either Rolen gets 60 day’d or Negron gets booted. The real question is if its Corky or Meso that’s called up.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Again with the Arredondo hate. He's been wildly inconsistent, but he's been pretty good overall
And given that this is his first year back from TJ, I think there’s more improvement left for him.
But re: Burton, I think it’s almost a definite that he’ll get a callup. I also think Negron will, and once Carolina’s season is over, I could see them giving Grandal a call too. Not really a reason not to at this point.
Having said that, if Mesoraco doesn’t get a callup and/or isn’t the starting catcher in 2012, I’m going to lose my shit.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
whoa, easy there tiger.
He walks a lot of peole, has a 1.39 WHIP. It’s not terrible, but it’s not fantastic. I’d prefer Burton to be fantastic, that’s all.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Yeah, that wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically
I just see a lot of people hating on him all the time. I really think the walks were mainly a function of the TJ surgery. If you look at his gamelogs, in July-August he has 22 IP with only 11 walks and 23 Ks. That’s a lot better than the first half of the year, and I think he’ll continue to keep that ratio the further he gets from his surgery. If he does that, he’ll be a relatively cheap, good bullpen arm next year.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think the hate comes from a combination of preseason hype
coupled with some meltdowns/poor bullpen management that stick out more than times he was effective.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
This is probably true. We all probably had unrealistic expectations for him.
But unlike Volquez, who was overhyped and pretty much consistently sucked, Arredondo has had a lot of good outings, and has steadily improved. I’m counting on him to be a solid 6-7th inning guy next year.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
His periperhials aren't that different from Carlos Fisher.
Decent strike out rate of 8.42/9 but a terrible walk rate of 5.62/9. If the second doesn’t improve with time his future isn’t bright (which it could, they say command is the last thing to come back after TJS).
Also his stuff hasn’t come back from TJS, his fastball this year averages 91 mph, it was over 93 in 2008 and over 92 in 2009. In comparison Volquez had no noticeable drop in velocity pre and post surgery, and it seems most young pitchers maintain their velocity post surgery.
I think the Reds should tender Arredondo a contract and hope that after close to a full year of pitching he returns to form, but if he is the 8th inning guy next year, the lack of bullpen depth will be troubling.
It will get better.
8th inning guy is a bit of an exageration
but I don’t think he should be considered a valuable bullpen cog until he gets his walk rate down, and if he is promoted in the bullpen before next year starts due to Coco leaving, Chapman moving to the rotation (hopefully), and an organizational loss of confidence in Masset, rather than the Reds bringing in some new arms via trades or free agency, the bullpen is going to be an issue next year.
You do have to admit that if Chapman is a starter and Coco leaves, and if Masset doesn’t correct his issues next year, the bullpen could be an issue, and Arredondo could very well be tried in a setup role.
It will get better.
Joe Nuxhall, Waite Hoyt .
I can’t believe that Hoyt has been inducted years ago. He is my all time fav announcer…really knew the game, no messing around blabbing on and on with ancillary stores and personal bullshit.
How can Joe Nuxhall NOT be in…this is a Holy Mystery to me.
Kevin Youkilis: If I were to go anywhere, I would want to go to Cincinnati .
I don't get it either, Mads.
I grew up with Marty & Joe on the radio, and tried my damnedest to stay awake for the post-game show, just to hear Nuxy do his goodnight routine.
I think Mesoraco is rule 5 eligible this year
So they have to add him to the roster, even if they don’t see him catching for the Reds in 2012.
I’m think Negron might get the boot to make room.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
It could be Negron. But what's the deal with Hermida?
Is he under control for next season or would they have to re-sign him? If it’s the latter, I could see them just cutting bait now.
Or, maybe Walt has some crazy trade up his sleeve for today involving one of the guys who cleared waivers.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Picking one guy to boot from the 40-man, I'd go with Daryl Thompson
Hermida is still under team control for another year.
they did it before, IIRC
Then he was so good in AFL they added him to the roster again.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
How about Dontrelle Willis?
I’d hate to see him go, but if the return was decent, it could be a good thing.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
That makes a lot of sense for the Yankees, to trade one lefty pitcher for another
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Me too. The only thing I can think is that teams knew the Reds would absolutely pull him back
so they didn’t bother. And maybe teams didn’t think he was good enough to be worth blocking from another team.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I know.
But I’ve been a Dontrelle fan since 2003, and having him on the Reds has been a bit of a dream come true for me. To see him go to the Evil Empire would make me a sad panda.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
I understand that.
I really like the guy and hope he is on the team in some capacity next season. But I just don’t think we should be too enamored with his pitching so far this year to be unwilling to trade him for a decent return.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
You may have heard the same thing I did
The guys on 660 The Fan were discussing rumors that Dontrelle was being shopped around. They were discussing whether the Yankees should try to get him for their bullpen. Maybe he’s gone after today.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
There are a lot of Cuban people in NYC, right?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Red Reporter: I should have read more before commenting
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Red Reporter: Does This Look Infected To You?
/rash’d
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Is twitter jacked up for anyone else?
It won’t let me do anything now
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
First Lance, then Jim Day.....now twitter itself has blocked you.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
The Plumber really does have a nice, smooth swing.
His size really limits his ceiling, but if he can keep making so much contact and start walking a bit more, he could be a really valuable middle infielder.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
His strikeout to walk ratio looks nice (roughly 1:1), but he doesn't really do either very often.
I would guess the reason he swings at the high fastball so often, is because he is so damn short (they have him listed at 5’9" when he can’t be much more than 5’7") that they’re all high fastballs.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Yeah, which is why I said I'd like to see him walking more
A K rate below 10% and a walk rate around 8-9% would make for a pretty valuable player, even if he never develops much power.
And since he’s only 18, I’d say there’s at least a decent chance he learns to walk a bit more. OTOH, once he starts facing better pitching, the walks could go up too.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I was looking at Pedroia's MiLB stats, and he had a similar start in A ball.
A lot more hits than walks, and as he moved up the ladder, he started walking more ad getting fewer base hits.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Yep.
Players with this profile who don’t learn to walk more can look pretty good through the minors, but at some point the BABIP well dries up. Juan Pierre comes to mind.
But if they have really good plate discipline they can make for really valuable players.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
What do the scouts say about his defense?
He looked good in the sample size of one game I saw him in.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
He's pretty quick, so I think the consensus is he should be able to stick at 2B.
Not sure on the arm strength. I know he has played some 3B too, but with his size and quickness, 2B seems a much more logical place for him. Also, the fact that he has played almost no SS indicates his arm isn’t great.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Asta lasagna, don't get any on ya
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
But I don't understand! He was hitting so well in AAA!
/trollbait’d
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 2:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess that doesn't necessarily mean they won't bring him back next year
And although it’s not a very consequential move, I thought he was at least as useful as most any other corner OF on the free agent market next year.
It’s probably the right move to bring up Meso, considering Hermida isn’t under control next year. But I keep being baffled by the Reds’ “plan.”
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
They won't bring him back
They had 2 chances to call him up and brought up Alonso and Sappelt instead.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 2:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
true
oddly enough, I was at one of the few games Hermida played and he hit a 3 run home run, but it was a GABP special
I think they probably won't
and it probably doesn’t matter. But I don’t see Alonso or Sappelt starting 2012 as outfielders in Cincinnati, especially if Dusty Baker is still managing.
Given how crappy the FA class is, Hermida’s age advantage over Lewis and Lewis’ pretty disappointing, one-dimensional performance, I’d take Hermida. But you’re right that this shows how little they think of him.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Sappelt will be on the team as a 4/5th OF
Problem is, if we’re not counting Alonso or Frazier as OFers, which it seems clear they aren’t, this organization only has 4/5th OFers.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I would hope Frazier would be a lock to join the team as 3B/LF/emergency-SS
meaning they’d only have to scrounge up two more OFers (assuming two SSs on the team). But that might be less certain that I assume.
I don’t really want to see Sappelt in the majors for another half-season and that’s not just because he hasn’t hit well in a cup of coffee.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Incidentally, here are the only FA OFers that seem worth a look this offseason
Carlos Beltran (35)
Andruw Jones (35)
Josh Willingham (33)
Lance Berkman (36)
Michael Cuddyer (33)
Kosuke Fukudome (35)
Jason Kubel (29)
Nick Swisher (31) – $10.25MM club option with a $1MM buyout
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess he's what everyone wished Jonny Gomes could be
I’d be content with him for a decent price.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
hmmmmmm
Brandon Phillips 4
Dave Sappelt 7
Joey Votto 3
Jay Bruce 9
Miguel Cairo 5
Drew Stubbs 8
Ramon Hernandez 2
Paul Janish 6
Dontrelle Willis 1
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Dusty said he wasn't gonna start Alonso with Willis pitching
I’d like to see Frazier in LF, though.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
yeah, Im not sure what Sappelt offers that Frazier doesn't.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
www.baseball-reference.com
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Dusty clearly favors Sappelt
Which is just further evidence to Dusty’s lack of player evaluation skills
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't know, I kinda liked that movie.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
my favorite part of that movie
was when i gouged out my eyes with a spoon while wearing a pair of headphones
this is brilliant, well done
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
the only thing he offers
Is that he can play CF.
But I think Dusty is just taking turns with Frazier, Lewis, and Sappelt. He’s trying to give them all playing time. We might to see Frazier play more than the other two, but Dusty doesn’t see it that way.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Dusty is an idiot
He’d rather sacrifice wins in 2012 for maybe an extra win or two now. Idiot Idiot Idiot.
Seriously, the best way to find out if Alonso can hack it at 3B is to play him every day in real, meaningful games. If he can, then the Reds become that much better for 2012. If he can’t, then they’ve learned something else about what they have in Alonso and move forward.
This absolute fucking nonsense of only playing Alonso at 3B when he’s less likely to get chances is inexcuseable. If I’m Walt, I’m absolutely furious at Dusty right now.
"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones
by cesarhernandez on Aug 31, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Until the front office tells him he doesn't have to worry about winning this year, he won't change
He’s playing for his next contract. He wants to be able to say, “I brought back-to-back winning teams to Cincinnati for the first time in a decade.” We all know that’s stupid, but unless the front office tells him not to worry about that, he’ll continue to worry about that.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
You sure Walt hasn't told him not to worry about it?
Is this quest to catch the Cardinals all in Dusty’s head?
"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones
by cesarhernandez on Aug 31, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I get the impression that he has not be told that
or at the very least that he has not been told not to worry about keeping him job.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
That's fair enough, but I'll say it again.
Thinking you are going to win with Cairo, Sappelt, and Lewis instead of Frazier and Alonso is just plain silly. That alone is a fireable offense.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Today was the first day back to school for teachers
and one of my colleagues and good friends is a Cubs fan. He HATES Dusty Baker and it really pained me to think, as we were talking about the season, that all of the “Dusty loves veterans and hates rookies” talk keeps getting backed up by his actions.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Dusty seems to hate mid level rookie prospects
He had no trouble playing Patterson in Chicago, or Votto, or Bruce, all big time prospects, but a midlevel prospect like Frazier, or a prospect without a position like Alonso, doesn’t get the time.
I think it is more Dusty doesn’t like to experiment. Which is why Bray can’t face right handers, or Coco almost always pitches the 9th with a 3 run lead or less, despite the situation even if he pitched the three days prior, he is so rigid with his bullpen roles, and Phillips will play second while Todd Frazier plays short.
It will get better.
Dave Sappelt is the very definition of mid level rookie prospect
Frazier and Alonso were both top 50 guys at one point, and #1s in the system. They aren’t mid level, yet Sappelt is getting the most playing time by far.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
they should be providing presence
by watching the game from the bench and instructing the kids on what they are doing right/wrong on the field and at bat
FWIW
Cairo and Rolen have been helping Alonso and Frazier work at 3B quite a bit. During batting practice, usually one of the veterans is out at 3B taking grounders with and giving pointers to one of the rookies.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
That's very cool, and I hope my (and others) hate on here isn't perceived as being directed towards those guys
It’s all on Dusty.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I don't think anybody here has ever said anything negative about Cairo
maybe his contract, maybe his usage, but never him himself. Which is impressive because, for Christ’s sake, this is RR.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I think Cairo is a bed-wetting doodyhead!
Awww, I can’t do it. I take it back. Sorry, Miguel.
Listen to my grawling.
Also
It won’t be a lack of hard work that keeps Alonso out of the lineup. Dude looks like he’s got a Votto-esque work ethic. He’s definitely gained my respect in that area.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
That's what all the announcers keep saying
Between that and his clearly awesome bat, I really hope he gets a chance on this team.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Problem is
I think he’d have a better argument with the FO if he were to play the young’uns with the future in mind. He could say something like “See? I’m not worried about a few garbage wins at the end of a lost season, I’m worried about building this organization into a winner. Would you really be more impressed with me if we were 82-80 rather than 80-82? That’s bullshit. I wanna be 100-62.”
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
well, the relationship between the two seems rather dysfunctional
I don’t expect rationality to work.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
If Dusty is really concerned with his job
then maybe he should sweeten up to Walt, yeah?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe he's sweetening up to Banana Bob instead
You know, the losing ends here guy.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Is Bob so dense?
He can’t be that dense.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Bob
would rather have a winning record this year than see the kids play.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
And I think Bob would rather
make the playoffs next year than win 82 games this year.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
sure, but
I don’t think he seriously thinks giving the kids playing time now will mean making the playoffs next year.
The thing is…Dusty is not operating in a vacuum. He doesn’t keep track of the minor leaguers. His opinion reflects that of the Reds organization. What the coaches, scouts, etc. are telling him. And I suspect the Reds don’t believe Alonso and Frazier are part of the Reds future.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Whether they are the future
or trade bait, either way the best course of action is to play them rather than sit them. It would take all of 3 minutes to explain this to Bob, if he really needed the convincing.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think
he’d rather have a winning record this year.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I wholeheartedly disagree with this
Dusty knows who he likes and who he doesn’t. He makes that clear in spring training, and I think he has ideas about players that he holds to no matter what anyone tells him.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I don't think that's true
We all thought he hated Lewis. But Lewis ended up getting quite a bit of playing time. Too much, some would say.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
They pay you to hit .300
not to hopefully hit .330 in a couple of years.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
That analogy doesn't really work
If they pay you to hit .300 and you hit 5 HRs a year, but by changing your stance a little bit, you could hit .280 with 35 HRs, but it would take 6 months of not being all that good, you’d probably do it.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Not sure if ^^^ really applies to the instant case
but it’s pithy and I kind of like it.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Regardless of anyone’s feelings about Alonso’s relative defensive capabilities or future on this team, if you want to find out if a guy can play somewhere, you play him there. Period.
I hate how cynical I am about him, but it just really seems like Dusty is intent on not having Yonder on his team moving forward. Frazier too, to a lesser extent.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think it's just hedging with Frazier
by my count he’s started half the games played since he was called up. Cairo (and Alonso once, maybe Janish once?) have gotten the other half? He’s tried to play the match-ups in order to win, which may be questionable but that’s kind of his managerial impulse. It’s an understandable impulse for a manager who doesn’t want to be fired, if counter-productive for 2012.
Withe Alonso, it does seem like kicking and screaming to get Dusty to put him anywhere on the field. He doesn’t seem interested in FO designs on either a trade or Yonder’s future role in the org. He seems hung up entirely on his defensive liability. Taken with match-up chess, means he’s started less than 1/5 of the games since he’s come up.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Frazier has started just under half the games since his call up
I think it’s something like 19 out of 41 after tonight.
Still, when you are being benched in favor of Miguel Cairo, who in a 16 year MLB career has pretty much never been a starter, it’s inexcusable.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I agree with that, it's just much less egregious wrt Frazier
He’s played a lot more, Cairo will be here next year and he’s been good.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's fair.
OTOH, Frazier is not nearly the defensive liability that Alonso is, so there is a lot less reason not to play him.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I'd put Frazier and Alonso in the lineup every MF day
but I have to live in the now.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean Monday - Friday?
Then how will they learn to play in the pressure of the weekend?
by ken on Aug 31, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
Check my numbers for tonight’s GT if you have a chance, I’ve got Frazier down for 18 out of 36.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He was called up on July 22
He has started 20 games in that time. Counting tonight, the team has played 38 games in that time. So we are both wrong!
It feels so nice to be back to normal
The defensive thing is Dusty's security blanket but it is also something of a canard.
He has brought up a number of times how defense wins games and how many runs have we saved and so on, but that all presupposes that the offense is producing at a certain baseline. It is safe to say that 3B hasn’t been producing at that imaginary baseline, nor has LF. So the net positive of Alonso’s offense would very likely outweigh the net negative of his defense. If there were no DH in the American League, I am sure that a team would have incorporated David Ortiz anyways because of his potent offense. And Alonso offers greater than David Ortiz-level defense, I would think.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the Reds have decided..
… that neither Frazier or Alonso are really part of the future. I don’t think this team is gong to win any playoff games if Frazier is our everyday LF’er and they may think that too. And maybe if you stick Alonso out at third and he shows the world what the Reds brass already knows – he can’t play third – then it reduces his value on the trade market.
I’m just trying to come up with reasons other than “Dusty is an idiot.” That may be the answer, but its not very satisfying.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Except they actually didn't give Alonso much of a tryout at LF,
and we know next to nothing about him at 3B, except he used to play the position, he has been practicing it again, and he played one game where no one hit to him. If Alonso was such an obvious fiasco at LF, then why did he play so many games at Louisville without reports that he was a fiasco?
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He's probably an adequate first-baseman
We already have one. So, you try to drive up the price with other teams by showing how well he can hit in spot situations while trying to hide him defensively.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
But
who cares about him defensively at this point? No one is going to look at him fumbling in LF and say “ooooh, I don’t want him as a 1B anymore.” Teams want to see him hit well against big league pitching, and we just haven’t seen enough of it yet. I think that’s on Dusty.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah... but you can lie a little bit
During negotiations, you throw in the point that Alonso can also play a little LF if needed. We just haven’t done it a lot because we already have another excellent OF prospect taking time there.
OK, so its a big lie. So what?
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
OK...
You’re probably wondering why I"m going to such lengths to defend Dusty here.
The truth is… I’m really Corey Patterson. I owe him a lot.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
No you aren't!
Corey Patterson already has a handle here, and it’s CoreyPatterson! You’re just a big liar!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Well.... um..... but....
ok, fine.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
and the real paul householder already has an account here too
so don’t try to claim to be him either
Does Pete Rose have an account here?
Because if he doesn’t, we should really try to invite him. Wouldn’t that be cool to have him in our game threads each night? I bet he’d enjoy that. Wait…. let me re-phrase that.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
This, and
I think if they really don’t see a future for either guy on the team, that they would’ve just left them in AAA.
It does more harm to their trade value for them to be on the big club but not playing, because it shows other teams that the team doesn’t have use for them. At least if they were in AAA there would be the illusion that they are still in the team’s plans.
I think the “Dusty is an idiot” or at least “Dusty is a stubborn ass” explanations are much more likely.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I disagree
Teams aren’t stupid. They all know that Alonso is blocked by the reigning MVP. This will make it the price for him go down. At the same time, as I mis-replied below, they wanted to show teams he has an MLB-ready bat to try and drive that price back up. I think that has worked.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Yeah, I agree
I think this might at least partly about trade negotiations. Making it seem like they don’t really have to trade him.
From Walt’s POV, of course. It’s not Dusty’s problem to worry about.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Maybe he was a fiasco in Louisville
But they wanted to get him up here to show folks that he has an MLB-ready bat. That part of the plan has worked beautifully.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Fya and other eyewitnesses didn't seem to think he was a fiasco, that wasn't what was reported.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You're going off of what Fya reported??
I’m just kidding.
But still – just because you’re not a total disaster in AAA doesn’t mean you’ll be an adequate defender at the big league level.
Again, I’m not arguing very passionately here. I’m just trying to come up with reasons. I refuse to simply accept that folks who have spent their entire adult life around the professional game are complete idiots about that game. It just doesn’t make sense. There has to be a real explanation.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
I don't think Dusty is an idiot at all.
I like him a lot, I think he is a thoughtful and extremely nice-seeming guy who has done a lot of good for the Reds. I am not convinced that Walt isn’t equally to blame for their problems this year, if not more so. But I have seen Dusty be almost pathologically stubborn several times before – viz. the Corey Patterson and Willy Taveras experiments – and so I am not convinced that he always makes decisions out of reason and rational consideration. I think it is probably a legitimate assumption that he has decided his goal is to finish above .500 because that is a good measurement of performance despite a down year. And he has convinced himself that Alonso is bad defensively. So 2+2=playing his known and favored quantities, who tend to be veterans.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
But what's so wrong about that?
He gets paid to win games. The players get paid to win games. Throwing in the towel in August is something we can do as fans, but I think its harder for teams to simply give up even though they know they are out of it. Until September is here, you keep playing to win. I don’t have a problem with that.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Nothing is wrong with wanting to win,
but the reason folks are questioning him is because many of us feel his calculus is wrong. There were better options at LF when Gomes was hitting .190, and there were better options at SS when Cozart was at AAA, and Alonso – a superb hitter – is a huge offensive upgrade at any of the positions he can play. So while Dusty sees Cairo as the best option at 3B, I’d like to see Alonso and Frazier there because they will likely produce at higher numbers and therefore make the team better. That’s a projection and an assumption, but its logical. It was completely infuriating watching Alonso sit after he blew the Marlins apart last week.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
I think folks here (myself included) sometimes have unrealistic expectations for young players. We praise a young player and scream when he doesn’t play, but then when he plays, he doesn’t exactly light the world on fire. I think its because playing major league baseball is hard.
I just feel better in a world where my President is smarter than I am and the manager of my favorite professional baseball team knows a little more about baseball than I do.
(Now pick the worst Reds’ manager between 2001 and 2008 and you’ve got yourself a joke!)
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Problem is
they haven’t proven anything about his bat. He has only 42 PAs since coming up. I agree that Walt wants to prove his bat is legit, but Dusty isn’t letting that happen.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's shown enough even in that limited sample
…. to raise his price tag.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Agree
Anyone team that’s kicking the tires on Alonso can at least know that he’s shown an ability to hit ML pitching well, even if it is over a limited sample.
This winter’s going to be interesting. One of Walt, Dusty, and Yonder will be leaving town. I’d put it at 10-35-55.
I'd go 30-10-60
Walt’s contract is up, he has like eleventy former GMs in his office. He’s old. He could just up and decide he’s not dealing with this any more.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
He's a tough guy to read, but my impression is that he's ticked about this year and doesn't want to go out like this
I wouldn’t bet against him in an internal political struggle.
Eggggggsactly.
If he absolutely sucked in LF but OPSed .900 for the rest of the season, that would only help his trade value, since teams would be trading for a 1B anyway.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
It was a playoff team with Johnny Gomes in LF
Does anyone in the world (but Dusty) think Gomes > Frazier?
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 31, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but not a very good playoff team
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
how does Alonso's poor play at third lower his trade value?
If he plays third it has 0 negative consequences for his trade value but the potential for positives. I doubt any of the 29 other GMs are looking at Alonso as a third baseman, and they would be a fool to trade for him to fix a problem at 3B. If Alonso plays 25 games at third, and OPS’s over .800 and sucks at defense teams will realize they have a strong hitting first baseman, and he proves he can hit MLB pitching. If he plays well at third on top of OPSing over .800, teams see that they can get a third baseman who can hit really well.
It is a lose lose situation when it comes to his trade value.
It will get better.
These guys are not stat-producing robots
If he’s sucking it up at third base, he takes that to the plate with him and it has the potential to screw with his confidence. I really think one of Dusty’s firmest philosophies is to do his best to put players in a position to succeed. It goes against his beliefs to throw a player into a situation where he thinks the guy will fail.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
I agree with this
I think a lot of what we see as Dusty hating on players are sincere attempts to put them in situations where they can succeed.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
not Sappelt in front of Votto again!
I’m feeling kind of defeated right now, though, so I feel like lineup probably has as good a shot as any to win
We've talked about our woeful leadoff hitters quite a bit
But it does seem that Dusty seems insistent on batting terrible players (usually the shortstops, in past years) second.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 31, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
We're all a bunch of sinners!
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
better Sappelt than Renteria
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I just have a real hard time believing this is what Walt has in mind for this roster
And I’m continually baffled by Dusty’s Frazier hate.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I really hate this lineup
I can’t imagine why there would be any night both Alonso and Frazier were on the bench, especially since I don’t think Sappelt should be in the running for anything. PT will be even more precious when Heisey is back.
But I think it comes from Dusty’s single-mindedness about salvaging a winning record.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
He's basically Sappelt with more power and a few more strikeouts
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's kind of what "a few more strikeouts" means
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree. But again,
The idea that Sappelt and Cairo are more likely to bring a win than Alonso and Frazier is utterly absurd
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess I should mention this is HIS thinking, not mine
I actually trust Cairo a little bit more at the plate than Frazier right now, but otherwise I agree. And I don’t think Sappelt should be in the running for a starting spot next season.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I trust Cairo more than Frazier at 3B
Definitely trust Frazier more than Cairo in LF.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
and of course part of one game is an adequate sample size
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I'm just saying, Cairo isn't a good fielder,
so the difference doesn’t seem big enough to even worry about
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Cairo is a good fielder
Perhaps my view is skewed by remembering him as a younger player, but I would use him at SS over Frazier.
And Fangraphs shows he’s been a great defender this year.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
But playing Alonso and Frazier
gives us a greater, if not equal chance, to win as playing Sappelt and Cairo, which makes it all the more infuriating.
that reminds me
I was at the game Monday night sitting behind our dugout and during a kind of “off” rendition of the anthem, Frazier was smirking and saying stuff to Dusty while Dusty was shaking with laughter. They were probably mercilessly mocking the singers, or maybe recalling a joke from Robot Chicken
Frazier: Dusty, look at those terrible singers.
Dusty: Great joke, kid. shakes head (Dusty Internal Monologue: Quit kissing up to me, you will never take Cairo from me).
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That couple was awful
They reminded me exactly of this couple:
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
dead.
I'm pretty sure he's vulnerable, so if they want to protect him from the Rule 5
they’d have to add him in the offseason.
But Hermida’s spot belongs to Mesoraco. I don’t think they’re in a rush to drop someone else if they don’t have to. Negron could probably go at any time, but he does play SS, which is razor thin right now.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 31, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Denis Phipps is a 5th OFer at best
No need to worry about adding him to anything.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Aug 31, 2011 3:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That may be true
But he’s already 26 and has never hit well until the last couple of months, which is all BABIP driven. A good fielder who doesn’t hit is, at best, a 5th OFer.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Aren't you the Edgar fan?
So isn’t it ironic that your bashing some player on his hitting ability.
Cingrani for 2012 Closer!
I don't see how that is ironic at all.
First of all, I’m not “bashing” anyone. I’m calling it as I see it. I may be wrong, for all I know, but I may be right…..
It’s like raiiiiiaaannnn….
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Dumperia, cha cha cha!
Dumperia, cha cha cha!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Miguel Tejada was DFA'd today, why can't the Reds cut loose the dead weight that is Edgar Renteria?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I wish we had signed Tejada instead of Dumperia
Dumperia may have won the WS MVP last year, but Tejada has won the MVP for the whole entire league!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 31, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
So is Renteria, because he's an old fuck that sucks at baseball
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
jesus, you love 5th/aaa outfielders
more than i love pitchers who can’t break 90 MPH.
It will get better.
Hermida
Hermida was been waived and signed by Padres. Reds sure to promote Mesoraco. I would also like to see Boxberger. They could waive Jordan Smith to make room.
heh, nice avatar
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
don't want to see Boxberger yet
I don’t think he’s ready.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Hey guys! Did you hear Hermida was picked up on waivers by the Padres?
I wonder if this opens a spot for Mesoraco?
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I just heard from my Padres guy that... oh. Damn.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 31, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Neither Mesoraco nor Corky Miller are in the Bats lineup tonight
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I'm sure he is, why wouldn't he be? Is there something you guys know that I don't?
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Hmmm. You know he's posting, but they aren't showing up.
THAN IS JOHNU!!!!
It feels so nice to be back to normal
That should be a list on iTunes
Comprised completely of Zack Brown Band and Buffett.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
this has the makings of a road trip, buddy comedy on their way up to Cincy
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
A spot must have opened up on the 40 man.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Rumors are that Alonso was traded to the Padres for a bag of bats.
by Cuetotally Amazing on Aug 31, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
trying to keep the bug population down at the GABP?
by theembalmer on Aug 31, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
are they even using a catcher tonight?
Or is the umpire going to have to take an ice bath at the end of this one?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Of course Red Skelton.
This ain’t Dodger Reporter, you know.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Aug 31, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
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