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Houston Astros Series Preview

Astros-080111_mediumI posted this on twitter yesterday, but here's my frustration with this season in a nutshell: The Reds are 53-55.  If they had just played to their Pythagorean Record (or their component W%, for that matter), they'd be 58-50, on pace for an 87-win season, and 1.5 games behind the Milwaukee Brewers.  Five losses is the difference between legit contention and pretention.

I don't know why the Reds have fallen short of that mark.  A lack of leverage-able shut-down relief pitching is probably part of it.  And maybe a few managerial decisions.  Unfortunately, a lot of it is probably also just bad luck.

Things that are not a problem:

  • Hitting.  The Reds are 4th in the league in wRC+, 3rd in OBP, 4th in SLG, and 2nd overall in runs scored.  That's better than I expected in the preseason.
  • Hitting with runners in scoring position.  Reds are 2nd in NL with a .773 OPS with RISP.  This really is not an issue.
  • Fielding.  Reds have the 2nd-best UZR, 3rd-best DRS, 3rd-best Defense Efficiency Ratio, and 3rd-best in FIP-BsR (my home brew fielding statistic).
Regardless, at least the Reds aren't the Astros!  Their position players have been dreadful.  The offense has been miserable, with little power and little ability to get on base.  And their fielding, by every single measure, has been just horrid.  On top of it all, two of their better players, Hunter Pence and Michael Bourn, were just traded away, leaving behind what is as close to a AAA squad as you'll ever see in the major leagues.

They still have pretty decent pitching, however.  It's not that it's great.  But it's no worse--and probably a tad better, at least in the rotation--than what the Reds are running out there.  If you catch their top guys, and the Reds are doing just that, this team can beat you in a short series.  Hopefully, however, the Reds can continue to stay hot and do what good teams are supposed to do against teams like the Astros.

Park Factors at Minute Maid Park (LHB/RHB)

wOBA: 102/100
HR: 107/117

You can see the effect of the Crawfish Boxes on the home run effect for right-handers.  But overall, this place has played as a fairly neutral, marginal hitter's park.

Position Players

Star-divide

Astroshit-080111_medium
You can't make much of the Astros' hitting numbers for most of their lineup, because it's all small sample sizes.  The Astros have exactly seven players with more than 250 PA's thus far.  But of those seven, two have been traded (Pence & Bourn), two have been demoted (Wallace & Johnson), and one is on the bench (Angel Sanchez).  That leaves Carlos Lee and Clint Barmes as the only guys with substantial playing time who are in the lineup these days.

My favorite player on the Astros right now is Jose Altuve.  He is listed at 5'7"/170 lbs, but my understanding is that this is extremely generous.  5'5" is probably more appropriate.  He's TINY, but somehow is able to generate legitimate doubles power and make good contact despite the frame.  A glance at his numbers shows that despite his Eddie Gaedel-esque stature, he has yet to take a walk, and his numbers are inflated with a .400 BABIP.  I don't know if he's going to make it as a starter, but he's a terrific curiosity if nothing else.  

Probable Starters

Astrospit-080111_medium

The Astros arguably have a pitching advantage in all three of these match-ups.  Actually, for the first two games, it's probably not even an argument.  Bud Norris is a high strikeout pitcher with fly ball tendencies and much improved walk rates that has led to a very good season this year.  Similarly, Wandy Rodriguez has continued to be a very good starter, attracting considerable interest at the trade deadline.  The guy you might not have heard of is Jordan Lyles, a top prospect of the Astros who has come up and been largely what was expected: he's a solid mid-rotation starter.

Bullpens

Astrospen-080111_medium

I think the Astros' pen matches up pretty well with the Reds'.  Mark Melancon has filled in admirably as the closer of this squad when Brandon Lyon's biceps tendon popped out of its groove, while Wilton Lopez is a very competent setup guy.  They've probably been better as a pair than the Reds' combination of Cordero & Masset, though not by a lot.  The Astros probably don't have the depth in the middle innings that the Reds do, however, and they have only one left-handed pitcher right now in Sergio Escalona.  He's not particularly good, either; given his walk rates, I predict that he will walk Joey Votto three times in this series.

Go Reds!

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RISP
Hitting with runners in scoring position. Reds are 2nd in NL with a .773 OPS with RISP. This really is not an issue.

Situational hitting, how it’s hard to define.
In Sunday’s game, we left men on base but scored 9 runs.
When we leave men on base and score 2-3 runs, that’s when we notice. So it’s that “clutch” factor that we can’t identify, which is maybe why we are 2-under, not 8-over.

If the world truly does end in 2012, that means we have just one more chance to win the World Series.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Clutchiness

I was more battling against the constant quoting of hitting with RISP that you hear on broadcasts.

Here’s a couple of other measures:

In high leverage situations, defined I think as situations that have twice (or greater) the “average” impact on games, the Reds collectively have a .313 wOBA, which ranks them 7th in the NL. So, not quite as good, but still in the top 50% of league.

By “Clutch” (which used to be referred to by the superior name “clutchiness”), they are -1.5 wins, meaning they’ve gotten 1.5 wins less than expected due to situational performance.

So there, ok, maybe hitting in situations accounts for one or two of the five win deficit.

…of course, these kinds of statistics are very rarely predictive of future performance. But it falls into the category of unlucky things, mostly.

But I agree it’s frustrating when it happens. But my feeling is that fans/announcers tend to over-focus on these things, and to have expectations that are much too high for what a typical team can achieve.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 1, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Extending that...

If you want to parse it out by the clutchiness statistic, which I should have said is basically the difference between WPA and WPA/LI, the Reds look like this:

Offense: 1.5 wins
Starting: -1.0 wins
Relief: -2.5 wins
-
—————————-
Total: -5 wins

(note, this is not how many wins they’ve achieved above average. It’s wins above (or below) their overall statistical lines; a terrible, terrible performance can have positive clutchiness if it doesn’t hurt the team as much as expected).

The only case where I think those numbers might be predictive is in the Reds’ relief corps, which hasn’t posted particularly superb numbers despite the fine ERAs by most relievers. It’s not that they’re bad. They’re just not awesome. And it’s arguably during their performances that the Reds have seen the biggest hits on their pythagorean record.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 1, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of the problem is that every team fails in "clutch" situations all the time

Fans only notice when it happens to their team.

Okay I'm pretendin that my tongue is all goin crazy.....man hee hee this is kinda fun

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

I also think we tend to get an idea about certain players and only remember things that reinforce those ideas.

Ramon is thought of as clutch, so we remember opening day but forget all the times he doesn’t get a RISP in.

Bruce isn’t clutch, so forget his OPS with RISP that is one of the best on the team, and instead remember the time he strikes out with the winning run on 3rd.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clutch in intangible

Some things aren’t about numbers.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Balls.

That was supposed to be poignant.

Clutch IS intangible.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still wouldn't have been poignant.

Saying “clutch is intangible” is basically saying “I can claim that anyone is clutch, or not, and you can’t prove me wrong.”

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clutch is what allows 35 people on this board to ...

simultaneously type in HE’S CLUTCH! when somebody hits a double with the bases loaded.

If the world truly does end in 2012, that means we have just one more chance to win the World Series.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Incorrect

I make no claims except that some things can’t be quantified.

I know that’s hard for some people to swallow, but if you want to avoid being confused and disappointed all the time, you have to get used to it.

Clutch is like Stuff, but nobody seems to have a problem with the nebulous nature of that term.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree not everything can be quantified.

Thing is, clutch kind of is quantified by things like leverage index and WPA, yet people still use their own perceptions when deciding who is “clutch” and who isn’t.

And as far as stuff, it can be quantified too, to some degree. A guy who throws 98 has better “stuff” than a guy who throws 91.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's debatable.

If the guy who throws 98 only has his fastball and the guy who throws 91 has great secondary pitches that move around a ton, you could make the argument that the slower pitcher has the better stuff.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

"stuff" is mostly just a way of saying "the pitches that a pitcher throws"

which is way, way easier. The comparisons of one pitcher’s stuff to another’s or saying “he has good stuff” are unquantified statements, but the term itself is quite useful if you ask me.

by pack_fan on Aug 1, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Clutch is a Humpty-Dumpty word

It means whatever we want it to mean, whenever we want it to.

When CMM comes up with men on base, or with a chance to tie the game or give us the lead late, I always feel confident that he will get the job done.

Objectively, he fails in these situations constantly. And yet, I never stop believing he will succeed next time. Hell, I’m not even sure why this is. Maybe it is residual goodwill from a few notable incidents (the opening day HR), maybe it is his nickname.

I never feel this way when Ryan Hanigan comes up in similar situations (and I like Ryan Hanigan).

Okay I'm pretendin that my tongue is all goin crazy.....man hee hee this is kinda fun

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go Hoosiers?

Are there other schools/colleges in Indiana beside IU?

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Aug 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evansville, but we dropped football in 1996.

So our record on the gridiron is slightly better than IU’s has been over the last 13 years.
And ISU should have joined us on the list of “schools that once had a football team.”

If the world truly does end in 2012, that means we have just one more chance to win the World Series.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

hey now

they went 6-5 last year. i was there during the losing streaks. something like 1 win in 57 games. and for the 1 win we used an ineligible player, so we got fined, but the NCAA let us keep the W.

i’m hoping to go to the game at Penn State this year. should be fun.

by Heeringa on Aug 1, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keep the faith and the Larry Bird poster.

But I was rootin’ for them in the NCAA’s last year.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was playing in the band for that

even though i’m an alumnus. it was awesome.

by Heeringa on Aug 1, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I go back so far to when ISU played E-ville in the D2 wars

One game, ISU was at Roberts, and they had a guy named Butch Wade, who was more of a hacker than a player (from Columbus) and Butch was beatin’ up on Larry Humes, our ace scorer.

Coming down the floor, Humes gave Wade an elbow and laid the guy out. We thought he was dead. I saw the elbow being thrown but the refs, didn’t … Humes was that quick. If a ref saw it, he figured Wade had it coming.

Those were some pretty brutal rivalries back then. I think it isn’t now.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

evansville is usually a bottom-feeder of the conference

but they seem to have owned ISU in recent years. even though ISU will be the teams the beat Evansville.

by Heeringa on Aug 1, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, never heard of em

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Aug 1, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW - I do remember the Sycamore's pulling an upset of IU during Mike Davis's time

I think – if I remember correctly…and they may have beat them again a couple years later

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Aug 1, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was at that game, too

it was awesome. we beat IU, Butler and Purdue in the same year when they were all ranked. we’ll beat anyone in Terre Haute. IU hasn’t won a men’s basketball game in Terre Haute since something like 1919.

by Heeringa on Aug 1, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holy hell

My parents went to Grace College. What years was she there?

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't feel bad

Mine didn’t either. In fact, only one finished high school.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

My parents went to Bob Jones

/feeling Left Behind
/fundamentalist joke’d

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Haha!

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dammit

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha!

Let’s try this again

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

In all seriousness

My parents can’t stand Grace College now, and probably envy yours, honestly. My grandparents are very fundamentalist, but my parents have moved far, far away from that lifestyle.

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not so much about Grace, but Goshen

in the same area. Goshen finally agreed last year to play the national anthem before games but not sing the words. Previously they would not play the anthem. Reason:

It was about violence (aka, war).

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh...

Class of 96, I think.

by badenjr on Aug 1, 2011 7:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Heh, ok

My parents were there in the early 80s. Still, small world, I guess. How did she like it?

How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?

by ThePensive on Aug 1, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Altuve

is a 1st pitch swinger – after that, next strike. He waved at a change-up in his one K IIRC, so it’ll be interesting to see what the 1st pitches are like and if he sees a bunch of change-ups.

"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane

by ol Pete on Aug 1, 2011 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

What I've heard recently scouting-wise is that he has a pretty slow stride...

…and ends up hitting almost entirely with his upper body. That’s surprising to hear, given that he’s has to generate power with very little mass to transfer into his hands and the bat. I’m looking forward to watching him tonight.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 1, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the Astros are not good

They’re playing .324 ball and just traded their 2 best players. They have 11.0 total team WAR this year (the pitching is -0.8). Pence and Bourn were 7.5 of that. Kepp was another 1.3. so that’s 2.2 left, 3.0 if you take out the pitching. We really need to sweep this series.

by ken on Aug 1, 2011 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

We absolutely must sweep

Every loss is a killer at this point, but we can’t lose to the worst team in baseball, one that’s even worse than they were a few days ago.

Sweep Stros, sweep Cubs, we’re back in this thing.

Look at our schedule this month:

Rockies
Padres
Nats
Pirates
Marlins
Nats
Phillies

If we go .667 for the month against these steaming piles of crap, we’ll be in great shape going into several divisional showdowns in Sept.

Gotta win now to have any chance later.

GO REDS!

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

I commented yesterday that the next 16 are against bad teams that, for the most part, made themselves worse last week—Astros, Cubs, Rockies, Padres, Nationals.

They absolutely need to win 11 or 12 of those 16 games. If they do, the season might not be lost.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

You guys are better than I am

I think the Mets sweep was basically the nail in the coffin of my optimism this season. I want to believe, but I might be too far gone.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 1, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah that Mets sweep came at exatcly the wrong time

when the Crew and the Cards were playing terrible teams

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with Justin...

I think the Mets sweep did the Reds in. Even at .667, I think the Reds only make up 3-5 games this month. That MIGHT get them back into the picture, but they really need to go about 25-5 over the next 30 to really be seriously in the mix. Highly unlikely.

by badenjr on Aug 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

They could have a 4 game lead if they go 25-5.

Fingers crossed.

"The Reds have started 2011 the way they ended 2010!"

by mdccclxix on Aug 1, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was it for me too

but I haven’t completely given up on them. Won’t be easy, but they’re capable of pulling it off so I’ll continue to root for them to do so.

by pack_fan on Aug 1, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

I don’t care that they’re facing the team’s 3 “best” starters. 2 or, at most, 3 runs should be plenty to win each game.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I think B-Ref is not giving the pitching enough credit for pitching in front of a terrible defense. They list HOU’s dWAR as +0.7, which is the only source I’ve seen that rates them so highly. This probably means that the pitching has been better than -0.8. FanGraphs, however, has their pitchers at 3 WAR, and with a lower baseline. So yeah, their pitching is not good.

Their offense is worse, though. :)
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 1, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I noticed that Carlos Lee is credited with +15 runs by TZ

So I agree that the defense just might be getting too much credit.

by ken on Aug 1, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Although, as a 1B, he might not be that bad…

by JinAZ on Aug 3, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

we need to go out there

like Miggy said, and assume everyone is trying to kick our ass and kick theirs instead

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lineup. Yay Yonder!

Stubbs CF
Cairo 3B
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Alonso LF
Hanigan C
Janish SS
Arroyo P

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

First complaint about the lineup, odds

Cairo batting 2nd – 3/1
Alonso/Bruce back to back but no Votto/Bruce back to back – 6/1
Hanigan too low – 4/1
Janish in the lineup with a flyball pitcher on the mound – 3/1

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot

Why isn’t Frazier playing instead of Cairo’s old ass?!?!?! -1/4

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't Cairo be even money?

I have no idea how better works

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Aug 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man, what's up with this lineup?

First off, no way Cairo should be batting 2nd. Second, why are Alonso and Bruce hitting back to back, but not Bruce and Votto? Third, Hanigan is batting way too low for his OBP skills. And finally, why the hell is Janish batting when there’s a flyball pitcher on the mound?

Get a brain, Dusty.

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Arredondo. They were shining there for you and me, for liberty, Arredondo.

by DTFH91 on Aug 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

ಠ_ಠ

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love this lineup

I want to marry this lineup and have its babies.

Okay I'm pretendin that my tongue is all goin crazy.....man hee hee this is kinda fun

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Aug 1, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately this lineup only calls you after it's been out drinking

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, this is absolutely fascinating to me

Fay speculates that the Reds and Blue Jays were working on a 1-1 swap of Votto for Bautista.

His reasoning is a guy with a close friend, close to baseball, reported that it was being discussed. Then Fay met a TOR scout who was in Dayton only to watch Daniel Corcino pitch. His speculation is that the Reds would have to include a prospect or two in the deal.

This sounds like the kind of thing that could easily be revisited in the offseason. I don’t like the fact that Bautista is 30 and signed for a lot of money through age 34, but.

Slot Yonder at 1B, put Bautista in LF, and this is a ridiculous lineup. JoeyBats would probably hit about 1,000 homers in GABP.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Let me also say that I'm highly skeptical

But since trading Joey this offseason has been widely discussed around here, it’s worth bringing up.

I’d definitely do it, FWIW.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

i’m gonna keep beating that drum.

a trade for bautista is not exactly what i envisioned though

by 'tHan on Aug 1, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it's not a bad idea.

After this season, they make almost the same money the next 2 years, but then Bautista is signed for 2 years beyond that.

It immediately solves the LF dilemma, and it allows Yonder onto the field as well.

My only concern is Bautista’s age and late bloominess.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well you didn't mention this earlier .....
My only concern is Bautista’s age and late bloominess.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I did.

That comment was made before you commented at all.

Doesn’t change the argument that Bautista is a significantly more valuable player than Votto, which you are welcome to disagree with, but you’ll be wrong.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am OK being wrong so long as the Reds don't trade Votto for Bautista.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you'll probably get your wish.

The trade won’t happen, and you’ll still be wrong.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can gloat over being wrong

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're doing it again.

I’m just going to point it out every time so you’re not surprised when people are mean to you.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know. I'm doing it on purpose.

Mind your own business. :-)

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

than made up with creds

I bonded with boobs

Anything is possible is redreporterland!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Aug 1, 2011 5:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'd love to bond with boobs

Whichever way you took that, I mean it.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would guess you've likely read some of the articles on why Jose Bautista was a "late bloomer."

So I’m not worried about that. I don’t know what you mean there. Not trying to be an ass (I know I sound like one here,) I just really don’t get it.

His age is the only concern. I personally think that if we’re looking for value from Votto and also a way to get Yonder on the field, it’s pretty perfect to get someone like Bautista. The only concerns of mine are, like you said, age and contract.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had a lot of problems timing his swing.

Here’s one.

I read one really awesome one, but I think it was a magazine. People kept telling him he was coming through the zone late, but he didn’t quite know what he should do to fix it. I think it was Milton Bradley that sat him down before the game and said, “look, you have nothing to lose. Just start so early that it’s ridiculous for this one game and if it doesn’t work don’t do it anymore.” He decided to take the advice then ended up mashing and never really stopped since then.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks

I wonder if there is any similar story in MLB history? That would give me more confidence that he could keep this kind of production going

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

TIL that John Fay likes to get high

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anybody else find it amusing ...

… that a GM who wants Joey Votto would actually have the nuts to ask for a prospect as well to even out the trade?

If the world truly does end in 2012, that means we have just one more chance to win the World Series.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really

Bautista is a more valuable player than Votto, for a number of reasons.

He plays a more valuable position, he’s actually a better offensive player, and he’s signed for 2 extra years.

I’d be shocked if TOR accepted a 1 for 1 swap.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop being wrong so often and I'll stop disagreeing.

Notice how many others here are saying they’d do the deal too?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bautista plays left field.

That is not a better defensive position than first base and anyone who ever played the game will tell you that. LF is a position defended by a bat. You put Alonzo and Gomes in LF.

All you get is HR power.

It’s a stupid fucking trade.
Votto is the best hitter we have.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man, you just keep being wrong.

LF is absolutely a better defensive position than 1B. The only thing less valuable than 1B is DH.

Also, think about this. Why do you think people are concerned Alonso can’t play LF, but they know he can play 1B? Because 1B is far easier.

Bautista would be the best hitter we had too, by a long shot.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, you are wrong and you saying I am wrong still makes you wrong ... twice.

You are wrong because you just are wrong about this and you are wrong to insist that I am wrong.

Maybe if you asked some ballplayers about this instead of your friends here at RR, you’d get some real information about baseball.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

john, it's just not true

Look at the way any defensive metric values positions. 1B is always valued the least.

Look at the way players are used. Guys move from corner OF spots to 1B, which is the last spot before becoming a DH. Conversely, if DHs ever have to play the field, they are typically only put at 1B (David Ortiz, Jim Thome, etc.)

I like the condescension, but you still aren’t right. But maybe if I played baseball 80 years ago I might know what I was talking about.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did not once mention the DH ...

… so its inclusion here is anecdotal.
They are different positions requiring a different range of skills.
Bautista could probably learn to flag em down at 1B and Votto could catch most of the balls hit to LF.

Whatever that tends to prove in today’s baseball is still related to WAR and other data. It’s about hitting. Votto is a better value to me and I will remain on that side of the argument.

Any other sniping is probably better left alone. Jeez, is there something wrong with having a POV without being ridiculed as moran? I really try to avoid doing that and find myself generally being the only one who does.

Whatever. This ain’t the fuckin’ Paris Peace Talks.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really? You try to avoid doing that?
That is not a better defensive position than first base and anyone who ever played the game will tell you that
It’s a stupid fucking trade.
You are wrong because you just are wrong about this and you are wrong to insist that I am wrong.
Maybe if you asked some ballplayers about this instead of your friends here at RR, you’d get some real information about baseball.

I never called you a moron. I just stated why I thought it was a good trade, and you got snippy because you can’t stand being disagreed with.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

votto would injure less teammates in lf

Therefore 1b is a more demanding position than lf.

Greg luzinksi played lf and he could never play 1b. Then again sean casey played 1b and I shutter to think his lf defense.

Everyones wrong and right!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Aug 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Also, he can also play 3B, the position which, according to you

desperately needs to be filled above all others.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he plays 3B, fine.

I said I usually avoid that but every so often, I figure I need to be a bit more assertive.

Got it, cuntfag?

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who said I intended it to be funny?

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

So we're in agreement.

You’re not funny.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

When did I ever say I was?

RR isn’t exactly a bastion of humor, unless equal-opportunity insults qualify as funny.

Never mind I called your mother a street walker slut, I call everybody’s mom that … so it’s not personal. But I’m sure that in the right position, it will get enough clicks to go green.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i knew cuntfag would catch on

Early negotiations in developing this word included how many would jump on board and use it.

I stated it had to be tied to your avatar to gain foothold. It will soon be urban dictionaryized.

Fewer!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Aug 1, 2011 5:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I won't use it again.

It’s not funny when I use it.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I urban dictionaryized it a while ago.

boom

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The second definition is not very nice.

:(

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it only applies to women?

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 2, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because it's not very nice.

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 2, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Educated grunting is all I see.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely a good argument.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

So maybe I should write a 500 word response

in which I don’t actually say anything.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

We will get lucky and smart people will avoid this trade

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

Trading “our best hitter” would be terrible, especially if it brought back a better hitter who was more valuable on defense, AND fills a position of huge need, AND the spot vacated could be filled by a top prospect.

That would just be terrible.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm skeptical about Bautista

he didn’t hit this many HR in the past and didn’t hit for average in the past. He seems to be a late bloomer which scares me some

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, no you don't.

And if you do, it probably won’t work. :-)

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

look at the #'s

and tell me who you’d want in your lineup.
Bautsta
Votto

I would be (pleasantly) shocked if there wasn’t a prospect going from the Reds to Toronto.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Votto is the best hitter in the NL.

If the world truly does end in 2012, that means we have just one more chance to win the World Series.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Debatable.

But Bautista is probably the best hitter in the AL, in a tougher division, in a much less hitter friendly park.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right this minute, or do I consider age, contracts, etc.

Regardless, that’s a tough one.

I’d just really like to see what Bautista could do in a hitter’s park. He honestly might hit 50 homers.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

he hit 54 last year

and is on pace for 50 this year. He may hit 60 at GABP!

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

good point.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's tough.

Maybe Gonzalez, only because he’s left handed.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm left handed

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd prefer you over Bautista too.

Unless you play LF, which is a shit position.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gomes can play it, it can't be too tough.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gomes can't play it.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has been, and he still is.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

David Ortiz plays 1B.

Frank Thomas played some 1B when he was about 50 years old.

You? Still wrong.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a difference between playing LF and playing LF well.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

That wasn't the point

He said Gomes does not play LF
I said he does.
If it’s about how well it’s played, that’s a different discussion. Stay inside the debate.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clarified

can’t = doesn’t.

He clearly CAN play it.
Quality is still not the issue.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

You didn't say he "does" play it, you said he "can"

I say he “can’t”.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frankly, arguing with you isn't all that interesting.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is infuriating, though!

And that’s slightly more interesting than boredom!

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree it's infuriating, at least for you two.

I’d be infuriated if I kept being proven wrong too.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

jch and i know how to prove you wrong!

Ha.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Aug 1, 2011 5:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yet you keep doing it.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because the only thing I hate more than being wrong

is being bored.

And since you can never, ever be wrong, I get a constant supply of irritation to keep things mildly interesting.

You’re a poor substitute for a real foil, but yeah, whatever.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

More attempts at making me feel small!

I don’t want to argue with you. I’ve devoted this thread to needling johnu. FTR, I’m happy to be wrong. A list of people who have changed my opinion and/or shown me to be an idiot in the last couple months: (not exhaustive)

ken (frequently. Dude is an encyclopedia of knowledge)
jch24
’tHan
Slyde (like about a thousand times)
KMIB
andromache

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate when people like ken and Slyde ruin my arguments with all their knowledge.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know, right?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kid, you've just got to learn to not let facts get in the way of a strong opinion.

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sigh (the limitations of internet discourse)

I don’t wanna argue.

I greatly appreciate the info and insight you provide.

I’m glad we root for the same team, but I can’t give you a free pass when you’re being a jerk. I’ll try harder to be more amused than angry when I point it out.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Aug 1, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll try harder to not be a jerk....

to you. I’ll still be a jerk to johnu.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is a lot of fun for the rest of us.

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey! No snark!

I included you on my list!!

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not snark - I am finding this hugely entertaining.

Also, I didn’t read that before I posted. Also, I am flattered – what have I ever changed your opinion about?

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said it wasn't exhaustive!!

/quickly adds Scrabbles’ name to the list.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

The more names added to the list ...

… tends to prove something.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

It’s just like how the site has a million mods. How must it make you feel to not be one of them?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was suggesting that the more folks who change your mind ...

… illustrates how often you are wrong.

I feel like my life would be complete if I should live long enough to be invited to become a mod on this sports blog.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the same vein

How must it make you feel to be one of the only people who has never proven me wrong?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have, several times.

I just don’t gloat about it.
Life is really not about that.
At least for adults.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't delude yourself

You’ve never been right.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of which, could someone make a mod for, like, 15 seconds?

I must find out who shorterjohnu is.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you email one of them, they might tell you.

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll give you three guesses

Give me three names of who you think it might be, and I’ll tell you if you are right.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alright, let's see...

The RR formerly known as Justin
’tHan
Uh… JJ?

That was harder than I thought it would be.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

dang

i’m against people being to each other. i am definitely not shorterjohnu

i’m a peace loving guy

by 'tHan on Aug 1, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I teach that one!

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 2, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know. I don't remember anything specific.

You just have a lot of interesting things to say.

Also, I like how you can diffuse stuff with a good sense of humor.

Plus, your blog is cool.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh well, please feel free to tell me more about how awesome I am.

Singer: So did you know you can bring a gun in here now?
'Mache: I BROUGHT TWO! **flexes**

by andromache on Aug 1, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't get why you're saying a good LF (like Bautista plays) isn't more valuable than a good 1B.

Just because Gomes plays it, that doesn’t mean it’s easy to play a good one. Edgar Renteria plays SS. Does that mean it can’t be too hard?

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he likes being wrong.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm assuming the "shorterjohnu1" account above was made by you?

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoever did it is really childish.

Brings down the "cred"ibility of the entire forum.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can tell you it wasn't

It was made by a completely different jackass.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 1, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it was an alternate account of a regular user, I'm assuming?

Damn you mods and your IP address-checking powers!

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope.

I’m very direct in my aggression.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

We are talking about Votto, not Gomes

I don’t give a fiddler’s fuck about Gomes.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then why'd you bring him up?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

We could have peanut butter and jelly

if we had some jelly and some bread to put it on, provided we had some peanut butter.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

This makes as much sense

as any of your other comments in this thread.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are the one with all the common sense answers

I knew you’d get it if we talked about jelly.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you're the one who used him as an example...

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could probably explain it, but

some brain dead fucker on this board would say it was too long and complicated for them to understand because it wasn’t condense to the back of a matchbook.

So I will let you decide whether a comment about Bautista and Votto was worth a conversation about the importance of LF. (Get it? Stop me if I get too complicated here.) Somebody else mentioned Gomes. This was never about Gomes, just the ability to play LF. Maybe the SHORTERjohnu1 would be able to sort that out.

I doubt it though.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with jch

I need an “ignore” feature.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I wrote earlier, arguing with you isn't all that interesting.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know this is supposed to make me feel small

But all it does is make me confused as to why you keep at it if it’s so for you.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't want your opinion on anything.

I fuckin’ reached out to you in an effort to at least not be a dick. So, that didn’t work. Fuck it. Just ignore me.
I don’t care about your opinions.
Sometimes, it isn’t worth the hassle.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, I get it.

You’re more intelligent than anyone else here. When you start rambling about peanut butter and jelly or Jonny Gomes or whatever the fuck else you decide to talk about, we don’t understand what you mean because we all fall short of your great intellect.

I’m going to stop with this now.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Feel free to join Creds and Roastybeef

in ignoring me.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

It'd be much easier to ignore you

if you didn’t make 3,000,000 million long comments in every thread.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Post somewhere else then.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather not.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I only played LF a couple of times

You don’t generally see left handers in LF, since the throw to second is across the body.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only positions lefties really CAN play are RF, 1B and CF.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the very lucrative P position

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have never seen a left shortstop in the pros

But at some amateur levels, I have. The ball hit up the middle is a bigger problem but lefties can actually field balls into the hole better.

The throw is the bitch.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats what I was thinking

its not ideal sure, but its not impossible either. I can’t come up with any examples though, unless we’re talking about lefthanded hitting righthanded throwing outfielders.l

by pack_fan on Aug 1, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball is a form of job discrimination

They designed the game to be played by righthanded people.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bautista

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Put Bautista in GABP and he might just reach 60 HRs.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is one of the best in the NL

I would take Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, and Matt Kemp over Votto right now. Berkman has had a better season, and Pujols has been coming on strong.

Votto leads the league in OBP, but how much of that is because he had Rolen hitting behind him?

Know that I think Votto is a fantastic hitter, the best I’ve ever seen on the Reds (since 1990).

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have the same jersey number?

That means they’re interchangeable, right?

by Bray Juice on Aug 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

As 'creds said,

I fear the late bloominess. It’s great that he’s been absurdly good two years in a row, but are there any historical comparisons to this guy’s career path that don’t involve PEDs?

Born Small... Now Huge... Winning... Bring it..!

by BomerHailey on Aug 1, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also skeptical, but from a Reds perspective, I do that deal instantly

even with Corcino. $14M annually for the next 4 years is a steal, and you get an option year thrown in.

That Bautista can play OF and 3B makes it even better

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I wonder if it would be more than 1 prospect.

Like, Corcino plus a couple others. I’d still do it, as long as those others didn’t include Mesoraco.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've mentioned that Bautista's been better, and is signed longer.

And I know most of us know it, but it still bears mentioning (I think) that Votto’s 3 years younger and is has already posted his 4th 3+ WAR season, whereas Bautista is only in his second such season.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, like I said, the late bloominess thing is of some concern.

But it seems reasonable that he can maintain the production for at least 2 more years, which is all Votto is signed for anyway.

Plus, there’s been no connection to steroids other than baseless speculation.

For me, it’s the fact that LF has been a black hole of suck for us for 3 years now, and we have a very good replacement waiting to go at 1B.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd trade Votto for Bautista.

Where I disagree is that it would take more than Votto to get him.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was kind of my comment at first

Not that anyone noticed.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I noticed

sitting on the other side of the negotiating table, I would require more than Votto for me to give up Bautista.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

Votto is battle tested bayonets

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

didn't realize

I would’ve put their seasons on par with one another last year. Bautista’s stepped his game up this year, Vottos has regressed just a bit.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, and to me, that's significant.

Votto has more of a track record, but Bautista has been able to sustain the success far better than Joey has.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still say SSS on that.

Votto’s getting hot. Check back at the end of the season.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

also true

Even if he does and ends up with 30 HR’s, he won’t catch Bautista this year.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

not in HRs, no.

But Bautista was hitting .360 through the end of May with a BABIP of .345ish (and that’s not including his huge HRs), and that’s been steadily dropping lately.

This is the same guy that crushed a ton of HRs last year (all by pulling the ball, mind you) with a .260 average.

I’ll buy that he’s found his power stroke and can pull-crush the ball now, but I don’t buy that he’s suddenly morphed into a .330 hitter.

I suspect it will even out yet again.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, the difference in WAR last year is small enough

that you can reasonably say they were roughly equivalent in value.

And Bautista has a significant advantage this year. It’ll be tough for Votto to catch him.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

true.

Didn’t Bautista claim he actually started reaping the results of his swing change in 2009 though?

If you want to count that year as new-Bautista, Votto worked him in WAR that year, too.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

What’s interesting is how they are trending. Look at Bautista’s peripheral numbers. BB rate, K rate, and wOBA have all been trending in positive directions for the last 3 years.

Gotta think moving out of the AL East and into GABP would help even more.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree.

We’re splitting hairs here, obviously. A lineup of:

Stubbs cf
Alonso 1b
Bautista lf
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Frazier/Rolen 3b
HaniRaco c
Cozart ss
p

looks pretty damn awesome…and balanced.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

For a while it looked like Bautista was going to put up a Bonds-like WAR total.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the contract is key.

Votto is locked up for 2 years, after which it’s a big risk. Maybe they can re-sign him, but can they do it for less than $25 million per?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, the premise of the trade (I assume)

would be because Votto would want to play at home in Toronto.

I’m pretty sure they’d find a way to negotiate that part of the deal.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe that's why it didn't happen! They want a negotiating window!

Even still, I’d bet Votto makes way more money in ’14-15 than Bautista does.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably because he'll be a shit-ton better in '14-15 than Bautista is.

Y’know, the 3 years younger and easier defensive position thing.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, maybe.

Bautista could always play 3B. No idea whether that’s easier or harder on the body than LF.

Still, will Votto + Current Reds Shitstorm in LF/3B be better than Bautista + Alonso?

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

so you mean

will Votto/Alonso be better than Bautista/Alonso, right?

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Aug 1, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would be nice to be able to think of it that way...

But that particular argument has already been Dusty’d

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I believed Alonso was the future in LF, then yes.

I’m not convinced.

Even if that is the case, you gotta think Alonso’s potentially terrible defense in LF tips the scales in Bautista/Alonso’s favor.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think steroids are necessarily involved

it might just be a Gomesian hot streak sustained over a couple of years which I admit seems unlikely

by Red_Poodle on Aug 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I compare Bautista generally to George Foster in numbers

There may be no other similarities and the eras are far different.
But it’s still just that I remember this.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the defensive versatility seals it for me

Very good hitter, signed to a reasonable deal, and frees up Yonder to play his natural position.

by ken on Aug 1, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tale of the Tape... Bautista Vs. Votto

Upside: Bautista > Votto (due to power… see last 2 years)
Track Record: Votto > Bautista (4 years of 3+WAR for Votto vs. 2 for Bautista)
Defensive Position: Bautista > Votto (Versatility of Bautista, plus Votto’s at 1B. Alonso would be able to move to 1st base)
Contract: Bautista > Votto (Bautista’s $14M for the next 4 years. Votto’s at $9.5, then $17M, then FA after 2013 ($20M at least).
Age: Votto > Bautista (27 vs. 30)
Risk: Votto > Bautista (in that Votto’s a lower risk – see Bautista’s late bloominess)

Overall, it’s pretty even, though I would weigh more heavily the upside, track record, and contract, which Bautista wins 2 of 3.

Looking through this, I would still expect that Toronto would require a middle prospect or two, maybe one with high potential, for the Reds to trade for Bautista.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Aug 1, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

FTR, this is a very large leap of Fay to make

TOR was almost surely scouting Corcino with a different deal in mind. Fay should’ve at least asked someone in the FO, even if they’d just say “no comment.”

Nothing wrong with a little idle speculation, but he tries to give the idea some legitimacy that isn’t warranted.

by ken on Aug 1, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, this is very true.

I feel like he did the same thing with a different situation a while back, but I can’t remember with what.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Walt went in Rasmus' back door?

wut

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing

this is rampant speculation based on zero evidence turned into rumor. Guess thats what makes you a good journalist these days.

by pack_fan on Aug 1, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fay needed something ...

… the trade wire dried up after Gomes went National.
Not much to write about makes blogger journalism somewhat useless.
Still, I’d trade somebody else instead of Votto if I want Jose Bautista.

No matter how smart you think you are, to some folks, it's just educated grunting.

by johnu1 on Aug 1, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only problem I have with it

Is the notion that Bautista would have more of a trade value on the open market than Votto would. First off, isn’t Votto’s contract more favorable? They’re both elite bats at their positions, neither play at a place that has any impact on defense, but the contracts are the only thing really separating them here (other than the fact that Bautista has the added baggage of kind of sucking before he magically became good). Also, I’d think that Votto would be more valuable to them, since he’s the hometown boy and all… shouldn’t they be the ones throwing in the good pitching prospect in this deal, if anybody does?

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Aug 1, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Bautista's contract is more favorable

He’s under contract through 2014 at about $14 mil per. Joey goes to 17 mil in his last year, which is 2 years earlier than Bautista. Gotta figure even on a hometown discount re-sign, Votto gets at least $20 million a year.

Unless you think Bautista’s production is going to fall off a cliff, he’s got the much better contract. It can also be argued he’s a significantly better bat right now, in a much more difficult hitting environment (TOR field, AL east)

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Aug 1, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should know this, but what's the email for SBN "Enhancement Requests"?

I need an ignore feature and I need it now.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Aug 1, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Between this series and the Cubs one

I’d be disappointed if the Reds didn’t win both and sweep one.

I know that I’m setting my expectations too high. But they’ll probably need to win 2/3 of their games to make a move for the division crown, and it’s much easier to pad your record against the Cubs or Astros than to have to win every series from here on out.

Miggy Miggy Miggy, can't you see?
Sometimes your skills just hypnotize me.
And I just love your veteran ways,
You're unappreciated and under-paid.

by sexsalad on Aug 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I like all these quirky stats comparisons

I also liked the planetary stuff from that guy last year, what happened to those?

by TheCinWin on Aug 1, 2011 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that was ewquinn

I haven’t seen him around lately.

by ken on Aug 1, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

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