Gorram Pirates. Reds lose, 1-0.
by Brendanukkah on Jul 20, 2011 12:33 AM EDT
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Joe Nuxhall Memorial Honorary Star of the Game
Ryan Hanigan. Hanigan went 2-3 with a double, and also reached via a walk. Not only that, but he threw out two would be basestealers as well. Honorable mentions go to Mike Leake (six innings of two hit ball, allowing only the one run. One run too many, evidently.) and Ramon Hernandez, who singled as a pinch hitter (our catchers are awesome).
Key Plays
- Frakking first inning. Mike Leake gave up a one out single to Josh Harrison, then a ground rule double to Neil Walker, putting runners on second and third. Andrew McCutchen grounded to shortstop, and Zack Cozart threw to first to get the sure out rather than trying for the play at the plate. Hey, it's the first inning and you've got the whole game left to score runs, right? Pirates win, 1-0.
Other Notes
- Jay Bruce struck out with the bases loaded, and also grounded out with two runners on in the ninth to end the game. Joey Votto went 0-4 with 3 strikeouts.
- The Reds are 6-43 with runners in scoring position since the All-Star break.
- Mike Leake did not allow a hit after the first inning.
- Zack Cozart's hitting streak came to an end, failing to surpass Adam Dunn for the longest streak to start a Reds career.
- We're sellers.
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Baker said
“we’re wasting some great pitching” and that is what hurts the most in my opinion. Starts where the starter gives up two runs or less should be wins. Next time Leake pitches he may give up 5.
We’re probably going to win tomorrow, though, because we have to outscore them for the series. That shouldn’t be too difficult.
Just remember, pitching is supposedly the problem.
That’s why Jimenez is being sought.
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Jul 20, 2011 1:07 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Coming into today the Reds lead the league in runs
Don’t let the facts ruin a good argument, though.
Nothing succeeds like failure.
Only fact I look at is Wins.
Losing 2 games and then blowing out the team in the third game to outscore them for the series IS the argument.
But don’t let that fact ruin a good argument either.
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Jul 20, 2011 1:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Haven't you heard?
If they score x amount of runs, that means there are absolutely zero problems with the offense.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
Yea I'm tired of the "reds top 5 offense" stuff
What have they done in the last month or two? Inflated stats from the beginning of the year have no impact on what this team is doing now. Truth is no one is hot right now and it doesn’t look to be getting any better, especially when your MVP is striking out three times a game
I got blasted a couple weeks ago for that
mentioning Votto striking out as much as Stubbs. Even supported it w/numbers, just like Justin here. I wasn’t making any judgment call on it, just a comment on it. Got railed with the selective end points argument.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
I think feelings on this are being skewed by most recent results
It is true that since July 1 (15 g), the offense has been below average (3.5 R/G compared to NL AVG of 4.1)
But in those 15 games the team has faced Carpenter and Garcia twice each, Greinke, Marcum, Morton, Justin Masterson, and Fausto Carmona. That’s a lot of quality pitching to be going up against. The offense is struggling a bit, but they aren’t getting any help from sucky pitchers (when they do, like against Jake Westbrook, they score. In 2 games against him they scored 15 runs total)
Also, in those 15 June games, the pitching has allowed 4.5 R/G. The pitching is still the problem.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Being a team that only performs well against bad pitchers isn't exactly a quality you want to have if you plan on making a run in the playoffs.
The sucky pitchers are out of the equation then.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense
The reason those pitchers are dominant is because they beat everyone, even good offenses. It’s unreasonable to expect any offense to put up 5 runs on anyone. Nobody does that. You’d have reason to be concerned if crappy pitchers were consistently shutting them down, but they’re not.
Also, this exact team got owned by good pitchers last year too. No one was complaining then. (well, actually, a lot of people were probably complaining, but that’s another issue)
It feels so nice to be back to normal
you need pitching to compete with it as well
Nothing succeeds like failure.
by Yossarian22 on Jul 20, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Stats do not tell everything.
Having a streaky player is fine.
Having two is okay. If they both get hot, they can carry a team (Gomes, Bruce).
Having four streaky main starters (Bruce, Gomes, Stubbs, Phillips). When they are all (or most) clicking, the team seems unbeatable (actually, this year, that’s when the pitching fell apart). When they aren’t on a positive streak, combined with an injured regular (Rolen) and a statistical mire (SS). At times, to paraphrase a famous baseball line, it’s “Catcher and Votto and pray for rain”.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
Gomes isn't a starter...
And heck… most players are streaky.
"Luna Lovegood is really freaking awesome in every way." -Me
That graph makes the game look quite a bit more entertaining than it really was.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
Take this for what its worth but...
a guy over at redsminorleagues.com apparently has some inside info on the Jiminez situation. Comment by The Rage
"If this deal goes down, I would finger or back pat Baker most of all."
I’m going to choose back pat.
by Chester Drawers on Jul 20, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Leake and Wood would be a bit much
but yea i wouldn’t be upset. i think if the Rox considered it without Leake, then the deal could probably be made with a little compromise not including Leake and a younger less proven guy instead
So that's Volquez, Wood, Leake, and Alonso?
Imma say that’s too much. It totally robs the Reds of pitching depth, doesn’t it? What if one of are starters gets mono again? Who’s the “sixth starter?”
Thompson? Lecure? Maloney? Lehr?
by Chester Drawers on Jul 20, 2011 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather not give up Leake
and certainly wouldn’t do it with Leake AND Wood.
Maybe, maybe, maybe, ohhhh, maybe if the Reds were up/down by a game and the pitching needed solidifying.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
That's a bit much for my blood, only because the team doesn't have the starting depth to make up for that
But replace Leake with Grandal, and I’m in.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think Wood gets a bit of a bum rap
at least to lump him in with Volquez (not meant to sound like I’m admonishing you for doing so)
He’s the little girl with the curl:
When he’s good, he’s really really good
(5 of 6 starts in May, 31 innings 10 runs)
(3 of 6 starts in April, 20 innings 5 runs)
(3 of 4 starts in June, 21 innings 7 runs)
When he’s bad, he’s awful
(3 of 6 starts in april: 11.2 innings 19 runs)
(1 of 4 starts in June: 4.2 innings 8 runs)
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
no, me either!
I like Wood. But to get a rock solid soldier, we can’t just offer stiffs. I would stand firm and not let them take a Leake from us, however. I realize we aren’t hunting for Randy Johnson, so we can’t just offer Volquez and the ghost of Pete LaCock.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
I can understand that
My problem with this is twofold.
One, by dealing Leake, you are essentially having Ubaldo replace him. That probably represents a 2-3 win upgrade per year, max. Maybe less. That’s still great, but less valuable than if he’s replacing Willis in the rotation.
Two, that deal destroys the pitching depth. It’s folly to believe that Willis is going to remain awesome, or that all the starters will stay healthy. If we do that deal and anyone gets hurt, we’re stuck with LeCure, Maloney, or worse in the rotation. That’s no good.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
that's assuming the deal is done to win this year
i don’t think it would be.
lecure is decent & justin loves maloney.
but you also have to think that next year you might be adding chapman to the rotation
At this point, I'd think Walt has to be considering only trades that focus more on next year.
That’s why I like the proposed Ubaldo trade. Sure he helps marginally the rest of this year, but next year and the year after are the real reasons behind it.
I keep hoping that announcement of trying Chapman as a starter next year is coming.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Jul 20, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
“…next year you might be adding chapman to the rotation.”
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Why is that an LOL?
tHan, I mostly agree, but I still think it’s risky to give up that much starting depth, even for next year.
Ubaldo is easily better than all 3 of our guys, maybe combined. But the fact is, he’s probably only a 2-3 win improvement over Leake over a full season.
Losing all of our pitching depth, plus Alonso, for a 2-3 win improvement seems a bit much to me. I’d rather include a top prospect (Grandal, etc) than Leake.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
yes, i would rather give up grandal as well
but if leake is what it took to actually get done, that’s what i’d give up
If I'm Walt (and I'm not)
I’d see what Tampa would want for Jame Shields. He is also under team control for a couple more years.
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
lol
I hope “finger” is in the “point the blame” context (if the deal turns regrettable) and not in the “hey, good job! Here’s your sxual reward!”
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
His original name was Homerberto Bailino
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
by btcoop71 on Jul 20, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Apparently BP has an off day tomorrow...
So, the NFL lockout is over, right?
The Colts fired Caldwell, right?
"You! Look what you've done. My starting pitcher thinks he's a chicken."
Apparently we are targeting Coco Crisp and/or Chone Figgins
http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30717444
Was this already mentioned/discussed?
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Jul 20, 2011 2:06 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Who puts any stock in Danny Knobler?
Those are some really uninspiring targets. Chone Figgins would be the worst acquisition of all time.
i'm in a glass case of emotion.
I’m going to type what i’m thinking, and then i’m going away. Because I’ll just be more frustrated tomorrow when the reds lose that one too. so here’s my venting, don’t have to read, i don’t care, just had to write this down.
First off, I’m frustrated to the point where I don’t think I can watch another game until the front office does something. We’re getting manhandled by a team that’s roster is depleted by the DL and I’ve never seen a team where there’s so many players on the field that have been claimed off waivers (B. Wood, X. Paul, the catcher Mcsomethin) Makes you wonder what Clint Hurdle can do with a team like the Reds.
And these trade rumors…Coco Crisp, Chone Figgins, Ludwick, Todd Coffey, Isringhausen..they’ll save us. Having a leadoff hitter means squat when you can’t bat them in. The bullpen is the least of this team’s concerns but I do understand wanting to do something to prepare for the closer situation next yr. But who they’re talking makes no sense to me. Having a pitching ace wont help because we’re not making the playoffs. As much as I would love having Ubaldo, I’d rather put all my eggs in a basket getting a cleanup hitter and I’d be all over the Dodgers trying to get one of their two main outfielders.
and my lord, what about that Mike Leake? Man came back with some fire in his eyes and he seems to me the only one with some fire in him. Need to get out of the land of ‘good enough’ and get some winning attitude back in this organization.
twitter - MattAnderson19
by in_Votto_We_Trust on Jul 20, 2011 2:39 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe
luck is a bigger factor than we realized in baseball.
In the long run, luck evens out, in the short term, anything can happen, but in the medium term…the farther away from the “norm” you get, the less likely it is you’ll get back to it.
This goes for the “lucky” – the Pirates – as well as the “unlucky” – the Reds. In the long run it will even out, but one season might not be long enough to see it.
Nothing we can do about it except have a little patience – with our players, as well as the manager and GM.
At this point, I’d be okay with Walt preparing for next year. Sure, get Jimenez…because he’ll help next year, not save this year. Forget aging rentals. See what we have in Heisey, Cozart, and some of the kids in Louisville. Even if they hit below .100 for a month.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
this, pretty much
I remember a streak earlier in the season where the Reds had (what seemed like) a dozen games in a row that they won with the exception of one weird play (or short series of plays). And it was never the same guy making the same type of mistake, just a team thing.
Leake has four shoulda-been-out-blooper/grounders in a row, Reds lose.
Chapman suddenly goes haywire for a couple games, Reds lose.
Bruce goes cold at the wrong time, Reds lose.
Stubbs takes the wrong cut on the ball off the bat (which he never does), just misses game winner. Reds lose. (dunno if it was game winner, but it’s more dramatic)
Coco is solid all year… then suddenly isn’t. Reds lose
The Bengals have “Bengalized”. We’ve been “Bakerized” (sarcastic emoticon here)
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
ill stand up and suport dusty baker
Dude gets an incredible bum rep around here. We bashed boone. Bashed narron. Bashed miley. Kinda bashed mackanin, but cut hiim some slack due to his interim status.
Dusty may not be the most adept in game tactician but I think he has a strong influence on the teams morale. Guys aren’t half assing it like in years past…
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Jul 20, 2011 7:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
fwiw, I like Dave Miley.
Didn’t really bash Narron, even. Boone sucked. But I wasn’t here for those guys, still on usenet.
Point of contention: You think this team is showing strong in the morale department? Other than the pitching staff, this team looks dead at the plate. I was going to say on the field, as well, but not sure I can… although the bravado has seemed to diminish on D, I don’t want to stand accused of saying they stink or are lackadaisical when justin logs back on.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
managers get bashed. It's practically in the job description.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jul 20, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know what people think luck doesn't matter
because it’s huge. Upthread people are talking about “streaky” hitters, but that stuff is unavoidable. Only the really bad players don’t go on streaks. It’s just what happens when you only have four or five ABs a day. Some days, you’ll go 4 for 5; plenty of days you’ll fail to reach base.
In the end it evens out (more or less), but it’s frustrating to watch a team get baserunners and fail to score. Then again, it can be fun when the team doesn’t get a hit all game until the game-winning HR. Luck, of course, goes both ways—at least sometimes.
Still not a candidate.
of course we acknowledge luck
But probably not enough. We don’t really want to think that sometimes, you can do everything right, and be the best team on paper, but still finish fourth.
In particular, many of us here – including me – thought luck would even out for the Reds this year. And it probably would, given a long enough season. But we’re running out of season now.
I remember reading a study of professional gamblers. The people who make their living playing video poker, blackjack, etc. Contrary to popular belief, there are many games out there that can be beaten. That is, the odds are such that a perfect player will make money. Most people can’t do this because they lack the understanding of statistics, or the discipline to follow through. But even those who do run into the problem of “flux.” That is, fluctuation around the average, AKA standard deviation. You can be unlucky, and you can be unlucky for a very long time. In fact, the further away from the average you drift, the less likely it is you will return to average. The gamblers’ saying is, “If you can’t stand the flux, don’t bet the bucks.” Losing streaks can last weeks or months, and the pros might lose tens of thousands of dollars a month. If your bankroll is not big enough, you’ll lose, even if you’re doing everything right and the odds are in your favor.
In the Reds’ case, it’s not the bankroll that’s running out, it’s time.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
If they're gonna hit .100 for a month
may as well have that month be September, not August.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather Jocketty realize Baker isn't the answer
that was the anti-silver lining from last year. made him look competent
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
buster olney reported reds targeting james shields
TB scouts spotted scouting reds minor leaguers.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Jul 20, 2011 7:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Okay, that might take Leake.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
calling it as i see it
Its time for some small ball.
Runner on 3B one out. Ninth inning. Reds down by one. Who do you want at the dish?
CMM/Hanny
Votto
Rolen (even if duct taped together)
Cozart
I expect those four gentlemen to put the bat on the ball in a pressure siituation. The rest of the lineup causes great anxiety in that situation.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Jul 20, 2011 7:09 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
x
if I can set up the optimal, I’d rather see
First choice: “Votto with someone behind him so they don’t pitch around him”
Second choice: Rolen, circa June 2010
Third : CMM/Hannigan
Current set up: CMM/Hannigan, Votto, Rolen
I can’t pass judgment on Cozart yet, but do like the way he approaches at bats. 32 was nutso crazy his first 10 games or so, as well. I’d rather let the shine wear off before I sign the papers.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
This is true, and good enough
But your scenario presumes someone is getting to 3rd w/ less than 2 outs.
Hanny/Rolen are highly unlikely to be that guy. That’s where some of the other guys might just have a bit of value.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Pitchers and catchers got twice as many hits as the rest of the team last night
Other than Ubaldo, the only rumored target that I see helping is Figgins. He can play 3rd base; and I’m assuming the M’s pick up most of the money.
Lyle Overbay would seem way cooler if his first name were Lionel. Yeah, Lionel Overbay. Let’s get that guy.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
by poojols on Jul 20, 2011 7:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Chone Figgins currently has a .473 OPS
By all means, let’s get him!
It feels so nice to be back to normal
selective end points
beginning of season through now.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
Figgins can't hit
We already have plenty of dudes who can’t hit
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
by BK on Jul 20, 2011 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Erasmus Overbay
that guy I would sign
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
I'd stay away from him
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
Shields?
I’m kind of in love with him because he really packs a punch
I would be a very happy camper if we somehow ended up with him
by Red_Poodle on Jul 20, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, fuck that guy.
One guy named Coco is more than enough.
This avatar smells like greasy line-beards and Brut.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jul 20, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't wait to win this one 10-1
because the pythag’s all that matters this year!
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come.
by chesirecat on Jul 20, 2011 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
listen, pal
Bacon makes everything better.
But don’t let facts get in the way of a good argument.
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
by supergrover on Jul 20, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rats main page headline for tonight's game preview
Karsten’s out to steal Reds booty. I’ll leave it to the ladies to decide which players are in danger of being captured.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
For your consideration
“Stubbs” is just “Butts,” inverted.
by Brendanukkah on Jul 20, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
does that mean he's a catcher?
A Ongreed the Deserving
-coviner's lawful neutral Paladin / Debutante character
And a K is just a home run turned upside down!
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jul 20, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
how the backwards K isn't in ISO is beyond me.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It's probably due to its bad image
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Eleven games against three of the four worst teams on the league
Oakland, Seattle, and Baltimore.
The Angels will put an end to it.
by Chester Drawers on Jul 20, 2011 11:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Even though this season has been incredibly frustrating
I love the excitement of apporaching the trade deadline and speculating on the rumors. For so many years the Reds were out of contention by June. And even if there was a move to be made, I didnt trust that Bowden would make a good deal or the owner would open the pocketbook if it helped the club.
As dismal as the last few weeks have been, I still am engaged and have faith that Walt is going to attempt to make the team better. Thats more than we would see in a lot of previous years.
"Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan. That's good advice!"
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