"All" "Star" "Game": Which Reds are deserving?
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jun 30, 2011 1:45 PM EDT
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All Star voting is a big, dumb sham of a stupid, dumb popularity contest. We all know that. But while, in light of this truth, the selections don't garner quite the level of interest and righteous indignation from baseball nerds as those of the Hall of Fame, we still kinda care. It's nice to see your team get some recognition. And ever since the Mid-Summer Classic became the Mid-Summer Home Field Advantage Determiner for the Fall Classic Classic (that stationary is the worst), any fans harboring the delusion that their team has a shot at the World Series has an added incentive to kinda care.
The horrors of fan voting have their limits. Many times, a homer ballot works at cross-purposes. Fans will vote a straight ticket of their team's starting nine, which means electing a sub-optimal player at most positions. If there's enough ballot-stuffing goin' on, you end up with injured shells of formerly great players in the starting lineup. But coach and players selections of the bench, taken with the frequent line changes that happen in the game itself, help mitigate fan caprices. So a lot of the angry is just a lame excuse to get worked up about something other than the fact that no one is playing any real baseball for 3 days (4 in the Reds' case).
A quick review. Rosters are currently 34 players. Fans vote 8 starting position players. Players, coaches and managers vote 8 pitchers and a back-up at each position for a total of 16. The NL manager (this year, Bruce Bochy) selects nine additional players, including a DH. The MLB equivalent of the play-in game - or Joey Votto Award for East Coaste Snubbery - goes to the "Final Vote" recipient and that player gets spot #34.
Here's a look at all Reds players who registered a pulse on the All Star leaderboards (as of June 26, via MLB.com):
1B:
Albert Pujols, Cardinals: 3,358,432
Prince Fielder, Brewers: 2,903,584
Joey Votto, Reds: 2,832,857
Ryan Howard, Phillies: 1,881,711
Freddie Freeman, Braves: 702,911
2B:
Rickie Weeks, Brewers: 2,869,583
Brandon Phillips, Reds: 2,791,186
Chase Utley, Phillies: 2,406,965
Dan Uggla, Braves: 1,223,812
Freddy Sanchez, Giants: 1,184,145
3B:
Placido Polanco, Phillies: 3,261,718
Chipper Jones, Braves: 2,040,594
Pablo Sandoval, Giants: 1,584,671
David Wright, Mets: 1,497,778
Scott Rolen, Reds: 1,417,248
OF:
Ryan Braun, Brewers: 3,932,100
Lance Berkman, Cardinals: 3,208,183
Matt Holliday, Cardinals: 2,935,965
Matt Kemp, Dodgers: 2,743,927
Andre Ethier, Dodgers: 2,264,640
Jay Bruce, Reds: 2,119,267
#
Votto and BP are the only two with any chance at winning a starting job outright. With Pujols injured, 2nd place in fan-voting gets the start at first. A clear-eyed look at the second-base race would admit that Weeks deserves to start, but if Phillips were to regain the #1 spot in voting it would hardly be an historic miscarriage of ASG justice.
Here's my take on which Reds should rightfully be Arizona-bound and where they rank relative to their peers at their position in the National League:
(Tables don't seem to be working right now, so this is just a big stack o' numbers)
Definitely deserving
Joey Votto
fWAR: 2nd (Leader = Fielder)
bWAR: 2nd (Fielder)
OBP: 1st
SLG: 3rd (Fielder)
wOBA (NL-rank): 2nd (Fielder)
wRC+: 2nd (Fielder)
Brandon Phillips
fWAR: 3rd (Weeks)
bWAR: 3rd (Weeks)
OBP: 3rd (Carroll)
SLG: 3rd (Weeks)
wOBA: 3rd (Weeks)
wRC+: 3rd (Weeks)
ERA: 7th (Bastardo)**
WHIP: 2nd (Adams)
K/BB: NR
SV: 12th (Wilson)
WPA: 16th (Hanrahan)
** Cordero may not be objectively elite among all relief pitchers, but leverage is a moving target. He currently posts the second-lowest ERA of any "true closer."
Deserving, but possibly disqualified
Cueto probably hasn't logged enough innings, but has certainly pitched well enough in his 60 2/3. Rankings are adjusted for starters with a minimum of 60 IP:
ERA: 2nd (Johnson)
WHIP: 1st
FIP: 26th (Halladay)
K/BB: 33rd (Halladay)
May not reach some arbitrary threshold, though if his production held over just 40-50 more PAs he'd easily deserve to be McCann's back-up. If fWAR is to be believed, Ramon is the second-most valuable catcher in the NL in just 177 PAs. All stats below remove Buster Posey and have a 150 PA minimum.
fWAR: 4th (McCann)
bWAR: 2nd (McCann)
OBP: 2nd (McCann)
SLG: 2nd (McCann)
wOBA: 2nd (McCann)
wRC+: 2nd (McCann)
Not deserving, unfortunately
Jay Bruce
Depends on what you think of his defense this season and how many top NL outfielders get injured in the next week or so.
fWAR: 19th (Kemp)
bWAR: NR (sub-Soriano)
OBP: 18th (Kemp)
SLG: 8th (Kemp)
wOBA: 13th (Kemp)
wRC+: 13th (Kemp)
Depending on how highly you rate StubbHub's defense and value speed as a tool - in addition to not caring even a little bit about Ks - Stubbs is a respectable honorable mention
fWAR: 11th (Kemp)
bWAR: 10th (Kemp)
SB: 2nd (Bourn)
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Comments
Reds in the ASG
IF Weeks didn’t hit against the Reds, he’d have no numbers at all.
I can’t explain Polanco at 3B … I’d rather have Wright.
Homer vote says Cordero needs to be in the pen.
Votto is automatic even if he doesn’t get the vote. He should start ahead of Fielder.
I can’t see Cueto getting there with enough Phillies, Braves and Giants arms ahead of him.
I can make an outside case for Bruce since he’s a lefty bat. Yeah, we are trying to win the game. Yeah, and so is Berkman and Wutzisface from Pittsburgh.
Strikeouts don't hurt the team.
"IF Weeks didn’t hit against the Reds, he’d have no numbers at all."
That’s not true and it’s a pretty outrageous statement. I want to say you’re not being serious, but I’m just not sure
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
You really need to stop posturing against me.
Take a fuckin’ chill pill.
Strikeouts don't hurt the team.
godlord
No problem, fuckweasel! - jch24
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jun 30, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think the lack of statistical substantiation in johnu1's comment lets us know that he doesn't necessarily mean Weeks literally can't hit against other teams.
If johnu1 doesn’t post numbers, it would be folly to assume that he meant that Weeks has an OPS of 0.000.
That said, ChiDa doesn’t make this assumption, instead asking for clarification. I don’t know you fellows’ history, but perhaps both of you unintentionally found yourselves to be over-reactionary to each other in this case.
That said, here are the 2011 splits, kids. They’re dramatic:
Weeks vs. Reds: .389/.415/.889 in 9 games
Weeks vs. others: .273/.347/.439 in 71 games
In 2010 Weeks had higher slash stats against 3 other teams.
For his career Weeks has hit better against 6 other teams, but has hit the Reds better than any other team that he has faced in more than 30 games:
vs. Reds career: .283/.369/.494
vs. others career: .253/.353/.428
career at GABP: .269/.362/.489
career at Miller Park: .256/.365/.437
career vs. Reds @ Miller Park: .301/.378/.500
"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching." - Satchel Paige
by PeteyHendrix on Jun 30, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the stats Petey
So I guess Weeks does hit pretty well against the Reds compared to the rest of the league.
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
i'd love to see coco in the ASG
he’s having an amazing year, luck or not. He also has a trollish WHIP for him. Mr. Obligatory has not been as Obligatory this year.
I’d love to see Cueto in the game as well.
It’d be awkward if votto won and fielder wasnt selected by bochy because of the hate the giants have for him, and then fielder would get voted in and it’d be even more awkward.
BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
almost def both fielder and votto will be in
I feel that cordero’s chances are really strong, since managers like to bring veterans on, and he’s a closer so he will prob get picked.
There has to be a good chance both Fielder and Votto start, too.
With one as the DH, no?
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The game doesn't have a DH
since it’s played in a NL park. Or perhaps they’ve changed that rule as they should have.
It says in the article above that there will be a DH.
I do think that’s a new rule, though.
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's to save pitchers
After that 15 inning debacle a few years back
Fuck it, we'll do it live.
Wasn't there a rule proposed...
where each team could select one of the starters to return to the game, if needed? I thought that would be nifty, if only for the strategy involved. Do you take the BEST player or the most versatile player? Would there be politics involved if you chose a player from a rival?
I like the idea - in concept, not in execution -
of Bochy giving Ubaldo Jiminez the Carlos Fisher Treatment.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jun 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Players would definitely refuse
it’s not like they’d be suspended or anything. It’s like being forced to play monopoly after playing a whole game of risk.
I had no idea Weeks was having such a good season
I’d almost feel bad for BeeP, being in Utley’s shadow his whole career and the one year Utley’s out…Weeks decides to blow up.
I have a question on what you wrote for Hernandez, tl;dr. Is there a true cutoff for PAs for all-star candidates that CMM may not make? Or can Bochy be flexible and bring CMM on because he wants to make him feel better when he ultimately becomes a Giant?
And finally, nice quotes around the words in All-Star Game. Because “Some Famous Dudes in an Exhibition” probably wouldn’t sell as well.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I'm not aware of a cut-off
I just think Hernandez might be penalized for being a part-timer. Unfairly, I’d argue.
"OVERCHARGE, v. To ask a higher price than you can get." -Ambrose Bierce
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jun 30, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Who are we gonna get for Ramon?
He’s a perfect fit for the Giants, sure. 1 year, tide them over until Posey comes back. But I’m not sure who they have that we want.
Closest I have come: Jonathan Sanchez AND Zito, and we have to take Zito’s contract. But, we’d be allowed to cut him after that. :)
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
But do the Reds want to trade him?
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
For Jonathan Sanchez?
Yes. Probably even if we have to eat Zito’s contract. We could probably flip Zito for a decent middle reliever, if we paid him.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Hmmm, I had just read something on MLBTrade Rumors
Saying the Reds were ‘reluctant’ to trade Ramon Hernandez. Maybe that changes with Jonathan Sanchez
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
Can't blame them.
Many teams are going to want a legit catcher like CMM and quite frankly, the Reds should get the absolute most they can for him. Is Sanchez the absolute best they can get? If so, then strongly consider it.
Sanchez is a left-handed Edinson Volquez.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
That's not such a bad thing, is it?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Sanchez?
Oh god no thank you. Volquez is better than Sanchez. I don’t know why we would trade a valuable catching piece for another pitcher who can’t throw strikes and doesn’t throw hard anymore. We’re fine with what we have in the rotation currently, and Wood is available if needed.
by Brian B on Jun 30, 2011 10:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, last year... or maybe a couple years ago... I would have been real tempted to get Sanchez.
Not so much anymore.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Of course the Reds are relectant to trade any player whose name comes up as a possible candidate for a team with a real need.
Reluctant = We’re interested but you gots to be serious at your end SF.
Ramon is tradeable for the right player(s) in return.
Rick Santorum telling my father [he] doesn't know about torture is like Carrot Top telling Lebron James he doesn't know about basketball." Meghan McCain
Stats aside.... I want our guys starting over their guys
Use up your 25 online votes to make one last push for Joey and BP.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
Funny....I wrote in Johnu1 for pitching coach!
We need Brandon Larson to Play 3rd! Can't be worse than Rentawreck, right?!?
by BiggerRedMachines on Jul 1, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I may be a bad person for this
but I don’t think I’ve voted in the ASG since I turned 12. I don’t think I’ve watched a game since high school, not including when it’s on in bars.
I want Reds to be in the ASG, sure. I’m just not motivated enough to make it happen, I guess.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Why do you want the Reds to be in the ASG if you don't watch?
Just a pride thing?
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
for as much of my happiness is invested in the Reds as individuals
I feel like the Reds as individuals should be happy, too.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jun 30, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm with ya, pal
All-Star Games, I’m assuming, used to mean something to a lot of people. Otherwise we wouldn’t have them. But I find them all, NBA, Pro-Bowl, MLB, all of them, to be incredibly boring. I’ll be going to the movies that night.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 30, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I for one love the All-Star Game.
When I was a kid, it was one of the only times all year I’d get to see the Reds (albeit just one or two of them) on TV, plus we always had a big ASG watch party with food and drinks and friends, including those who rooted for other teams. I love the home run derby, the futures game, the celebrity softball game (do they still do that?) and especially the ceremonial introduction of players. That part always gave me goosebumps. But mostly, I just find the whole thing lots of fun. And I’d be soooo excited and pleased if a Reds player or two got to start. It’s been way too long.
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I've voted 200 times online and about 50 in paper ballot.
I am a fine baseball citizen.
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
or something like that! :)
We need Brandon Larson to Play 3rd! Can't be worse than Rentawreck, right?!?
by BiggerRedMachines on Jul 1, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Whoa - that is a NASTY grill!
Somebody needs to tell him to spend enough of that 2nd round money on cosmetic dentistry.
"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching." - Satchel Paige
by PeteyHendrix on Jun 30, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
what? He's from a 1,300 person town in MS?
I’d never have guessed.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I should add that I dont mean this as an insult.
<3 u and ur accent, Snax
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jun 30, 2011 7:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey!
Not all people from MS talk like tha-
Sigh. Who am I kidding? Yes we do
Fuck it, we'll do it live.
Are you from MS?
I’ve been living in Jackson for the past 9 years.
How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?
Yup
I’m from Jackson. What part are you from? I used to live right by the resivoir.
Fuck it, we'll do it live.
I'm living in the Fondren district in Jackson at the moment
As I try to figure out life after college graduation.
How much wood could Chakkuchakkuchakku if you can throw a tree?
Fielder and Weeks deserve to start
Votto and BP should be their backups. By a combination of injuries, aging, and a suddenly terrible field, Polanco actually deserves to start at 3B. Hernandez would be a worthy backup, but I won’t be upset if he doesn’t make the team. Cordero has a decent shot to make the team as well, which would be nice for him.
No one else on our team really deserves to go. If Stubbs or Cueto gets a manager pick or something, it wouldn’t be a travesty.
Definitely would like to see Cueto get a shot at the ASG this year
It’d be a good reward for the young’n
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
I feel like Cueto has been a borderline candidate a few different years now.
One of these years, he’s going to break through!
by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Cueto has simply been the second best pitcher in the NL this month...
And that is only because Cliff Lee has been unconscious. He was damn good in May, too. he has more starts before manager selections, so if he continues this, it will be hard to keep him out.
A ongreed the deserving
by coviner on Jun 30, 2011 5:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Wow, swype fail.
Agreed on the deserving list in full
by coviner on Jun 30, 2011 5:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, he has one more start at least.
by coviner on Jun 30, 2011 5:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Our wonderful former GM disagrees slightly with you.
Had no idea Jim Bowden was writing for ESPY
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=the-gms-office&id=449
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Jun 30, 2011 7:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Sometimes my phone likes to write something different than what I intended.
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Jul 1, 2011 12:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That couldn't be user error...lol
We need Brandon Larson to Play 3rd! Can't be worse than Rentawreck, right?!?
by BiggerRedMachines on Jul 1, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Am I alone in wishing
as few Reds as possible make the team?
I’d rather they took a few days off, went home, saw the kids, slept in, and got refreshed for the second half.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Yep
I mean, I like cheering for my Reds to make the team and all, but I’d just as soon see them go to the beach and have a drink with a little umbrella in it.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 30, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of them will get a nice bonus if they make it to the ASG.
That will more fruity drinks with umbrella in the off-season!
If most of them drank as many umbrella drinks as they could afford already...
That ain’t gonna lead to the playoffs…
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
THIS IS WHY WE NEED MIGUEL CABRERA IN THE ALL STAR GAME
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Jun 30, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
that makes sense
but getting to the ASG will make them feel like winners and therefore we will win more
I have never seen you and me at the same time.
Conspiracy, you say? Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they AREN’T after you.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
There is a guy playing in baseball right now with the last name Bastardo?
How have I not seen this?
yeah
Carl Ravech once introduced a clip with him on BBT by saying “Antonio, you magnificent Bastardo, I read your book!”
by Red_Poodle on Jun 30, 2011 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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