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Scouting Reds Pitchers: Mike Leake

Finally, we turn our attention to Mike Leake.  Leake was in the conversation for rookie of the year with his brilliant first half last season, but as the summer went on he seemed to lose steam.  Ultimately, he was shut down for the final month of the season.  He enters spring training as the most likely of the six contenders to start in AAA, but is by no means out of the picture yet. 

Pitches

Mike_leake_pitches_medium

Leake basically has five pitches, with an occasional four-seamer tossed in for good measure.  On the left side of the plot, you see his sinker, which is his most-used pitch and is a good one (see below).  He also has a change-up.  You can see that the two pitches have almost the exact same break--even considering the extra drop due to the slower speed of the change-up.  I have to think they are very difficult to tell apart.

Across the top of the plot you see his cutters, and then over to his sliders (which seem to include a number of pitches misclassified as curve-balls) and his curve ball.  You do see a small number of four-seam fastballs in his plot, which Leake seems to mix in on occasion.

Star-divide

Velocity

Mike_leake_velocity_medium

Leake is not a hard thrower.  His sinker averaged 88.5 mph last year, and he'll reach 92 or so with his four-seamer when he shows it.  This probably limits his ceiling a bit.  But he does have a good complement of pitches.  His change-up leaves his hand averaging 82.5 mph, and so while it may break in almost exactly the same manner as the sinker, it only runs about 6 mph slower.  The slider is about dead-on 80 mph, and the curve ball (the true curve) is a mid-70's pitch.

Outcomes

As it was in the prior pieces, while the above graphs only use one month of data to aide readability, everything from this point on uses the full year (or partial year, in Leake's case) of data.

Pitch Use% Strike% GB% Whiff% LgWhiff%
Four Seamer 4% 52% 56% 7% 6%
Sinker 46% 63% 55% 3% 5%
Cutter 12% 56% 55% 4% 8%
Slider 16% 64% 50% 19% 14%
Curve 9% 64% 45% 7% 12%
Change-Up 12% 67% 34% 17% 13%

Ground balls.  That's Mike Leake's calling card, posting a 50.2% ground ball rate last year.  And you can see where's it's coming from: his sinker, cutter, and slider all induce ground balls on 50% or more of balls hit into play.

What Leake generally has not been thus far is a strikeout guy.  But looking at the data, I'm pretty impressed.  While his fastballs (sinker & cutter) may not be good swing-and-miss pitches, his slider and change-up look very impressive.  The slider, in particular, surprised me, because pre-draft reports were that the curve was his best pitch along with his sinker.  At least for those pitches that were actually classified as sliders, he gets fantastic whiff %'s.  Despite a good number of sliders being misclassified as curve-balls, the curve was his least-used pitch (aside from the four-seamer).  I'd guess he only throws his curve about 5% of the time, and with not particularly good results.  It seems more like a show pitch than anything else.

His change-up, which as discussed above looks almost indistinguishable from his sinker by break except that it arrives 6 mph slower, also induces whiffs at a very good rate.  Along with the slider, the change-up looks like his best put-away pitche, at least based on this sample.  I hesitate to try to recommend something--as I've said several times, I really have no idea what I'm doing here--but given his very low strikeout rate last year (5.9 k/9), it seems to me that increased usage of those two pitches might be appropriate.  Speaking of usage, let's look at how he does use them.

Approach

vs. RHB Opening Pitch Two Strikes Full Count Behind
Four Seamer 3% 6% 14% 17%
Sinker 55% 34% 30% 67%
Cutter 5% 6% 14%
Slider 19% 45% 33% 8%
Curve 11% 3% 2%
Change-Up 6% 6% 7%

To start off a right-handed hitter, Leake seems to favor the sinker, slider, and curve.  The curve is rarely used except to start off a hitter, which makes sense--they will likely be sitting on a sinker or slider, and the curve--while not a great pitch--can be something he can use to get them to take a called first strike.  He did deliver it as a strike more than any other pitch last year.

With two strikes, he increases his usage of the slider tremendously, throwing it almost 50% of the time.  That's his best weapon against a right-handed hitter--and he knows it!  I don't see how he could throw it much more often in those situations, frankly.

With a full count, the main thing we see is increased usage of his cutter (and his four-seamer, interestingly).  Looking at other counts, it looks like he primarily will use the cutter when behind in the count, despite the fact that he threw it for strikes only 56% of the time last year.  Maybe he nibbles with it and tries to get them to chase it outside?  You'd think he'd be more likely to do this when ahead in the count.  But the guy usually can throw strikes, so perhaps he's trying to fool someone who is sitting on the sinker in that count...?  He does not throw the cutter in a 3-0 count, which is consistent with the idea that he cannot always locate the it well.

Generally speaking, against righties, he throws the change-up only rarely.

vs. LHB Opening Pitch Two Strikes Full Count Behind
Four Seamer 2% 6% 2%
Sinker 51% 44% 46% 92%
Cutter 17% 9% 2%
Slider 1% 24% 27%
Curve 16% 2% 5%
Change-Up 12% 14% 15%

 

As you might expect, it's against opposite-handed hitters where you see the change-up most often used.  That said, he doesn't seem to vary its usage much throughout the count.  I'm surprised he doesn't use it more.

Again, when starting off a hitter, Leake will often use his curve, but also his cutter against lefties.  When he is trying to put away a lefty, however he does use his change-up, but still relies heavily on his slider.  It's a good pitch, but I'd be interested to ask him why he doesn't use his change-up more in 0-2 and 1-2 counts against left-handers.  Sliders tend to have fairly large platoon splits, whereas change-ups do not.  He treats full counts in much the same way as he does when he's ahead in the count, at least in terms of pitch selection.

If he got behind you in a 3-0 count last year, and you were a left-hander, he always--always--threw a sinker.  Or he intentionally walked you.

Conclusions

Mike Leake's an exciting young pitcher.  He has good weapons against both right- and left-handers, and from an outsider's perspective (and someone who really doesn't know anything), I think he might have an untapped potential weapon against left-handed hitters.  The main thing I'd be excited to see from him would be an increase in his strikeout rate this year (if/when he does pitch in the majors).  From this perspective, I think starting in the minors might be a good idea.  He could, for example, use the time to focus on honing his approach a bit, and seeing what he can do to increase his strikeout rate.


At the same time, I might be making the classic fallacy of focusing on what a pitcher doesn't do instead of focusing on what he does do well.  And what he does do well is induce ground balls.  With the Reds' infield defense being what it is--outstanding, especially if Janish plays--that's a great recipe for continued success.

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My boy.

I really hope he gets the 5th spot.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 4, 2011 9:38 AM EST reply actions  

I wish it wouldn't come down to a choice of Wood vs Leake

But given that it looks that way, I’m hoping for Wood to take the last spot. We need a lefty, and I think he has better stuff and better control than Leake.

Or even if I just like such as judged a fish contest that would get me outta the house and in some air.

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Mar 4, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

And it’s why I’m more and more baffled by the Arroyo extension. I was OK with it when it happened, but it’s becoming more apparent to me that it was a really bad idea. Especially if all it really allowed us to do was sign Renteria, Cairo, and Lewis (who may see less time than we thought)

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it had more to do with the fact that they wanted a vet in the rotation along with the young guys.

Although I agree. I don’t really get why they needed to extend him rather than just picking up the option.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Pitchers get hurt.

I’d be very surprised if Leake doesn’t get significant innings this season, even if starts the season in AAA.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 4, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

and like I said below, I’m happy with Arroyo this year and even next it’ll be OK unless he completely falls off a cliff.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Arroyo had more to do with stability.

As mentioned above in different context, guys get hurt. Except for Arroyo. He throws innings. I don’t know who will pick up his 215 quality innings if he’s not there.

by Brian B on Mar 4, 2011 11:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed. But in 2013?

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

The last year of a deal like that is what gets it done.

Someone would sign him through 2013. If we want him for 2011 and 2012, we’re going to have to pay for 2013 too. Or else we’re not going to get him.

I doubt he’s going to be worth $15M or whatever in 2013, but there’s a good chance he’s worth $8M plus good will to the city and fans.

by Brian B on Mar 4, 2011 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Bingo

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope so!

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Right on!

You’re Super!

by Brian B on Mar 4, 2011 4:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That's all well and good

But why didn’t they just pick up the option then? I’m glad we have Arroyo this year, and even for next year it’s OK, but by the third year it might be a serious burden.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I certainly won't argue that.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

It was a money thing

Arroyo is making 5 million less this year than if they had picked up the option.

Between Rolen and this (and Chappy, to a lesser extent), Walt has a theme going of mortaging the future to ensure short term financial stability.

He’s a true American!

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he's really banking on the team becoming a big success over the next few years

and the proceeds will pay the mortgage. I hope he’s right.

Press spacebar to die!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 4, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I really hope this team doesn't end up underwater

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that will happen

It’s not like they have $30 mil a year deferred over the next 10. It’s probably more like $5 or so.

Press spacebar to die!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 4, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

What if they take a ride in Bronson

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

.... dammit

That was supposed to say “What if they take a ride in Bronson’s boat” or something like that… yeesh.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, it is much funnier this way

Or even if I just like such as judged a fish contest that would get me outta the house and in some air.

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Mar 4, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Can I volunteer to take a ride in Bronson?

With appropriate sanitary precautions, of course.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, no can do

But I hear Homer’s available
:-P

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Nein, Danke

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

take a ride in Bronson?

you are doing it wrong!

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 4, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think sea levels are going to rise THAT much.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Mar 4, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I think this team is intentionally set up for a three year run

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

And here we go

Bruce, Chapman, and Cueto are the only guys guaranteed money in 2014.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's also because it's bad business to have too much money laid out that far in advance

Unless you are getting a good deal on it, you don’t want to put yourself in a position where you are stuck if contracted players fall to injury or decline.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds and The MSP Reds Annual today!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Albert Belle disagrees

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Albert Belle's too busy eating to notice

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Mar 4, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm certain Walt's not mortgaging the future for the present.

None of his other moves reflect that. This team and organization is built for the long run. They’ve made zero expensive free agent acquisitions. Core players are young. Starting pitching is deep. Bruce was signed long term to a bargain deal. Cordero’s and phillips’ money will be available to cover raises. Mortgaging the future is kinda the opposite of what Walt has done.

Arroyo’s the one veteran high price tag, and Despite the pitching depth, there is no one to replace a healthy 215 innings every year.

by Brian B on Mar 4, 2011 11:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree.

But I’m just a little bit worried that every offseason sees him signing an older player to a too-long deal with deferred money just for the sake of saving a few million in the short term. BP is the prime candidate for this next offseason.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Leake has great control but realizes his stuff isn't otherworldly

Therefore he throws pitches just out of the zone a lot and looks for the call or a swing.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Take out Leakes first two starts where his control was awful, and the relief apperances

he walks 2.58/9IP.

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 4, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that good?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that good?

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Mar 4, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

TWSS

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure she did.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Mar 4, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

???

thats making a huge gamble

Wood, Leake, Bailey = never pitched a full season of baseball
Volquez hasnt pitched a full season since TJ surgery
Aside from Cueto and Arroyo there’s no guarantee any of our ptichers can hold up against ML hitters over an extended period of time. Trade Arroyo or Volquez and you are taking an enormous and imprudent risk.

by cokane on Mar 5, 2011 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Volquez is an enormous and imprudent risk

How’s his body gonna hold up?

Wood pitched a full season of baseball last year, unless I’m still asleep posting this.

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 5, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you think Nick Masset's arm is a huge risk?

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 5, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

not sure

which is why I haven’t drafted him for my fantasy league

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Massett doesn't throw 110 pitches every five days

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

but he may be called upon to throw 4 out of 5 days.

reliving isn’t always easy.

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 6, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

ya okay, a guy signed for 1 year for 1.6 million, and still under arb the following year is somehow a risk? Try putting some thought into your posts instead of trying to cleverly turn my words against me.

by cokane on Mar 5, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly

He could be a 5 win pitcher for us this year. Or, he could be nothing. But either way, he’s not at all expensive.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 6, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

i think he will win more than 5 games

i’ll take the over on that one.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Mar 6, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Same here

Matter of fact, I’ll set the over/under at 9.5 wins. I’ll take the over every day, where does everyone else stand?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i'll take the over

because if i don’t believe he can get to 10 wins, i don’t believe the reds can win the division.

by 'tHan on Mar 6, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Edinson wins 14-16 this season, easy breezy

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Mar 6, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

If all of our pitching lives up to its potential, it could be a really fun summer

Edinson, if he gets his 2008 form back, could easily reach this mark. Bronson is generally good for about 15 wins a season. Cueto can easily win that many. Wood has a pretty good chance to win 12, and if Bailey finally puts it all together could also hit double digits. No real aces, but that’s an exciting rotation.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 6, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You think so?

Last year there were only 13 pitchers who posted more than 5 fWAR. The “worst” of that was CC Sabathia. I think that’s pretty much the highest we could reasonable ever even hope for from Volquez. I’d put the over/under at 2 WAR, frankly.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 11, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

cost has nothing to do with this

him actually producing on the mound and not being hurt does

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Volquez's contract doesn't make him any less a risk

his health, does

and you didn’t answer me about Wood.

Your turn

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i think wood throws 200 MLB innings

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Mar 6, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he'll be over 175

I hope the Reds are smart enough to have our best SP start the season on the Opening Day roster

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, Arroyo is probably not tradeable

I think all of his deferred money becomes “pay me now” money if he gets traded, making him crazy expensive for what he’ll give you in his third year (at least).

by JinAZ on Mar 6, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

which just means

more time for the Nasty Hook at the Ludlow Bromley yacht club

Steak Night!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Mar 6, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Not roast beef?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

hahaha

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, which makes that contract all the more turrible

we should have just offered him arbitration and hoped for draft picks

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He might not get the job out of ST, but I believe two things:

1) He’s not going to Louisville
2) He will be in the rotation permanently no later than June

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

You really think they'd put him in the 'pen?

I agree on #2, I’m very skeptical on 1.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I’d rather see him starting in Louisville than getting short innings in Cincy.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I think so

If he throws well in ST, how could the Reds justify sending him down, when he didn’t spend any time there last year?

He deserves to be on the 25-man, I think that’s the way the guys in charge will see it.

Yeah, he could probably benefit from getting some starts in Louisville, but who do you want as your swingman, Leake or Maloney? LeCure?

Keep your best players on the team.

If he sucks in ST, then I could see him sent down, but I doubt it would be an easy decision.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, assuming no injuries to any of the big 6

The way I think they’ll spin it is that they need to control his innings to keep him fresh for later in the year, and that he can work on some things in the minors, it’s rare for guys to skip the minors completely, some time there will do him good, blah blah.

Also, while he is perhaps one of the best pitchers, I don’t think there’s any way he’s one of the best relievers. The long relief thing is brutal on a guy’s arm because he might pitch 3 innings one day and then go a week without throwing again. It’s a terrible way for a young guy to develop, and I think they know that. And there are enough good late inning, high leverage guys in the pen that they wouldn’t use him that way.

I think either Maloney or LeCure would be perfectly passable as the long man, esp. considering those are usually garbage innings anyway. Guys like them who are fringe rotation guys with no development left are perfect candidates for long relief.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Can't disagree with any of that

I wonder if maybe, just maybe… Walt’s working on one of those super-secret-just-before-camp-breaks trades that could make the decision a no-brainer.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

That's possible, I suppose.

But who would he want to trade for? The only real position of need is SS, and I don’t see any good SS being traded. I also don’t think they see any areas of need on the team.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Ya never know.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I highly doubt they'd still be exploring trades for a SS

after signing Renteria and constantly reassuring Janish. Unless FLA approached them saying we’ll give you Hanley for a tub of Dubble Bubble, I’m sure Walt isn’t actively looking for SSs. And I feel like we always have “that feeling” that Walt’s working on a super-secret trade. It’s always possible, but I wouldn’t hold out hope.

But again, I’m quickly becoming more and more baffled by the Arroyo extension. When it happened, I was way more inclined to be in the camp of “a trade must be in the works” to free up some room. But now, the rotation looks all but set for 3 years (barring injury, of course), and it looks to stall the development of young talent. I guess I’m just kind of confused, but it is a good problem to have

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

God I hope so

I wonder if Carl Crawford is available?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I see GBSAMBB’s point, but I’m with ’creds on this one. And I want to have Leake available to start and still be in a good rhythm in case of an injury.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I just wonder if that could have a negative affect on the young guy

Especially if he’s throwing well in ST. Might seem like punishment.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

They're not that innocent!

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Oops, I did it again!

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

What the ego of a MLB player might look like

Or even if I just like such as judged a fish contest that would get me outta the house and in some air.

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Mar 4, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly,

It seems like maybe you overestimate the fragilility of these guys’ egos. You were super concerned that Gomes would stop being a good clubhouse guy if he was platooned, and he came out and said he doesn’t care. I don’t think his poor spirit will be crushed if he spends 3 months in AAA.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

And "than."

/justbeinghelpful

;-)

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha! An!

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Rec for "whirling dervish"

a woefully underutilized expression.

(is it an expression? A metaphor? Whirling dervishes were real things, so what’s the correct word here?)

((also, whoever signs Yu Darvish has a built-in awesome nickname. The Whirling Darvish!))

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Trying to figure out the Japanese "Darvish"

But it isn’t: ダルビッシュ

Didn’t realize he’s half-Iranian. And his full name is Darvishsefad.

by ashersky on Mar 4, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Half-Iranian?

Y. U. Darvishzadeh

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Mar 4, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

yum!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 4, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I do enjoy Dervish cheesecake.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Hooray!

Pictures of Yu Darvish are worth 10 points in the andromache’s favorite mod competition!

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Mar 4, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Woo hoo, I'm a winner! Thing's are gonna change, I can feel it!

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

No you don't

Legal bills be expensive, holmes.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Soy un perdedor!

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I lol'd

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Multi-thread win.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Mar 4, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If by intangibles, you mean hurt feelings of millionaires, then yes.

Yes you do.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry about Mike Leake.

He has tigerblood.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

WINNING

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I really hope they DON'T put him in the bullpen if he doesn't make the rotation.

Forget whether or not he “deserves” to be on the 25-man roster, I just don’t see him succeeding in a reliever role. He’s not really someone who can warm up quickly and run out for an inning or two.

I’d rather see him work things out in Louisville as a starter than to set him up for failure in the bullpen.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Why not?

Maloney and LeCure would both be in the mix for long reliever/spot starter. Why isn’t Leake qualified for that job?

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Mar 4, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

see

here

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Maloney and LeCure also aren't people we're hoping to see start for this team in the long run.

Leake is. Leake’s spot is more important. Frankly, the team probably doesn’t care if they screw up Maloney or LeCure’s arms. They’re valuable to the team, but they’re basically replaceable guys. They’re good 4 or 5 pitchers. Leake is someone who they want to see be a 2 or 3 pitcher.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think the org "doesn't care if they screw up [their] arms"

but those just have little to no upside left. They can afford to turn them into solid longmen because they have nothing left to prove. Leake can still develop and get better, and that won’t happen in the pen, at least not as quickly.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Maloney will be the next Tom Glavine

LeCure will be the next David Weathers.

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 4, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

He's qualified, I just don't want to see that kind of wear on his arm

We want him to eventually develop into a solid starter. Long relief is brutal on someone like Leake who is used to going 5 innings every five days. It’s a different style of training and prep, and I’d rather he stuck with starting, even if it’s for the Bats.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I just don't think you want your 6th starter/long man to be someone who you ultimately plan to have in the rotation.

Unless he’s already done what he can at the minor league level and can only continue development by pitching in the majors. In Leake’s case, I’d at least see if he can improve some things in AAA, then have him be the first man up in the case of injury.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

That might be true (I don't think they are, but whatevs)

But you are overrating the value Leake would add in that role over a LeCure/Maloney. We’re talking about 70 innings or so here, even fewer if he’s really in the rotation by June. The difference would be so negligible that there’s no point arguing about who would be better in that role.

But if, come June, the team needs a 5th starter and Leake has thrown 20 or so sporadic innings to that point, he won’t really be ready to assume the starter spot.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's my TRAIN of though.

I think we’ll get more value out of Leake if he starts at AAA than if he starts as the long man.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm the best wing man ever.

I flap my arms and say CAW CAW whenever someone lame gets to close.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

brilliant

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice

Dylan! (I don’t know what that means)

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

ha yeah

always wondered about that. And he uses it as if it’s common knowledge.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Mar 4, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well freaking played.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Mar 4, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Say no more

Or even if I just like such as judged a fish contest that would get me outta the house and in some air.

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Mar 4, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, Justin!

We finally know exactly what a “Mike Leake type” pitcher is!

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

Based on our discussion about Homer...

I wonder if Leake’s sliders are being misclassified as curves or if his curves are being misclassified as sliders. He seems to have a fairly consistent spin angle between 60 and 120 on both curves and sliders. Bailey’s spin angle on his curve was between 0 and 60. It seems that Bailey throws more of a 12 to 6 curve, while Leake’s has more horizontal break. I think your charts support this too. Leake’s “sliders” move about 5 inches while his curves move more like 10 inches. (Note that Leake’s sliders are just curves with more velocity, hence less break.) Bailey’s curves typically broke less than 5 inches. I’d say that the horizontal break that Leake puts on his curve gives the pitch classification algorithm some fits.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

I guess adding to that...

Since you were impressed with the “slider” but not with the curve, I suppose this could suggest that Leake would do well to make sure that he throws his curve hard and not try to get cute and take something off of it in order to get more break.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Seems like he doesn't really use his curve for more than show though.

It’s just kind of something to give the hitters a different look and get a cheap pitch in to keep them off balance. One of those ‘pitcher vs. thrower’ things.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't buy that they're different pitches.

Does taking something off the curve make it more effective when he throws it hard? I guess that’s possible. He’s young. My guess is that the slower curves are just mistakes. Of course, I’m no scout either, so I’m just guessing.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I see what you're saying.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

The horiz vs. vertical movement plot, however...

Shows two pretty clear clusters of pitches. I think the one where the green dots are should be called a slider, whereas the lower cluster should be called a curve ball. Here’s the horiz vs. vertical plot w/o gravity:

You can see that the slider has almost no negative break, whereas the curve does. I think they are different pitches.

What I’m calling Leake’s slider does vary in spin angle less than, say, Papelbon’s. So perhaps it is thrown more consistently with spin to one side or another. But in terms of movement, it looks very much like a typical slider.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 4, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

If Leake's curve has more horizontal break...

It won’t get as much vertical break. I think Leake’s would be considered a 2 to 8 curve (or is it from the hitter’s perspective – 10 to 4), vs. a typical 12 to 6 curve. More sideways movement and less drop.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know...

I’m not convinced that those points in the lower right aren’t simply there because they were thrown with less velocity. It might be interesting to see a series of these charts month-by-month to see if the clusters distinguish themselves more or tighten up into one cluster.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

That's strange...

It looks like he started losing some consistency on that curve and slider…

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

That is interesting...

Maybe that was when he started tailing off as the year wore on. I wonder if that’s a result of his arm getting tired or if workload was cited as the reason for his ineffectiveness when the real cause was the loss of consistency.

For what it’s worth, the other pitches seemed to have lost consistency too.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I figured he just was throwing Left-handed for a game.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Pictures

Trying to find pictures of slider/cutter vs. curve. Since the slider and cutter usually use the same grip, this might not be helpful. But …

I think that this is a curve:

I’m reasonably confident that this is a slider/cutter grip:

But again, since we know he throws a cutter, it’s hard to make much of that. Still, at this point, based on the movement plots, I think it’s pretty clear that he throws a distinct slider and curve. Again, the slider is exactly where you’d expect it to be. So is the curve. Even if he were to use the same grip (and I don’t think he does), they functionally act as two separate and identifiable pitches and so we might as well refer to them as such.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 4, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm...

Maybe you’re right. I could still see that as a single pitch thrown hard or soft, but even so, it’s clearly being used that way intentionally. It doesn’t appear that there’s any reason to think that the slow curves are mistakes when they consistently happen several times a game.

by badenjr on Mar 4, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

One last thing

In the Maple Street Press David Laurila interview with Leake, he reads off the pitch selection %‘s from pitchfx to Leake and asks him what that tells him. Leake doesn’t really give a detailed response, but he doesn’t object to some pitches being called sliders. :)

by JinAZ on Mar 4, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't trust anything you read in the Maple Street Press annual

I know some of the people who wrote that stuff.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, no kidding

The guy who did the GABP overview is clearly out to lunch.

by JinAZ on Mar 4, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

or access via train?

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Mar 5, 2011 2:12 AM EST up reply actions  

c'mon

everyone knows it’s pretty hard to get to Cincinnati via train

and you certainly can’t get to GABP via train

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 5, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

video game headsets are #turrible

charlie sheen doesn’t spend time playing video games online!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Mar 6, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

in florence mall?

they may have used to have it, but I’ve been going there since 1999 & had never seen it before.

by 'tHan on Mar 6, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I could have sworn they had it

I mean I wouldn’t commit any sum of money to it, but that’s what my memory tells me

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

No, the dork just focused on "park factors"

Whatever. Statheads. He needs to get his face out of a spreadsheet and watch a ballgame for once.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 6, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

What the hell is a Maple Street Press?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes sense to me

That’s got to be faster than those tap thingies.

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by Hawkeyegirl96 on Mar 4, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Lineup against the Mariners is up!

Sappelt
Cozart
Alonso
Francisco
Heisey
Hernandez
Lewis
Hermida
Negron
Reineke

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Hmmm

Did they spell the pitcher’s name right?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Nah.

He may get pushed to AA, but as long as a starting pitcher is willing to deal with the shit of minor league baseball, he’ll probably have a job.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially a guy like Reineke

We know that he can pitch at the AAA level, will be there if we need him in an absolute emergency, and has the veteranny presenceness to help the younger guys get acclimated to a new level and prepare them for the show. He’s the AAA Arroyo. AAArroyo.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Mar 4, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He's a Justin Lehr type.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

what type is Justin Lehr?

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 4, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

remember when we would be look to these guys to take spots in the rotaiton out of spring training

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 4, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And I know this is beating a dead horse

But I really don’t like that Gomes gets to play against the big boys and Lewis is stuck with the B team.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

You know what's

just wrong?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

The links you are posting keep being blocked by my school's firewall

Which means they are either porn or sports.

"Penus, stale beer, and day old hot dogs. Love it"--justin007000

by nycredsfan on Mar 4, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

It’s kinda both.

Press spacebar to die!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 4, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

They link to pictures from twitter.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Who is playing short? Coz or Negron?

Or even if I just like such as judged a fish contest that would get me outta the house and in some air.

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Mar 4, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Coz

Negron is at 2nd. Lewis DH’ing.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

is this a split-squad game?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 4, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Strikeout Rate

It’s always nice when a pitcher can miss bats, and perhaps you’ll see a slight uptick (especially as he gets a reputation for his control— umpires get more forgiving with pitchers who put the ball where it’s expected when they’ve seen them enough times).

I don’t think Leake is the kind of pitcher who is going to ever have a particularly high strikeout rate, which is fine— the ideal, as has often been said is Maddux (Greg, not Mike). Leake was good for 5.9 K/9, which is just a bit below Greg Maddux’s career average of 6.1— in the latter’s best years, he was right around 7K/9, and we all remember what his strike zone looked like in those peak years…

That Leake doesn’t seem to change his approach when he’s in trouble or way ahead is encouraging and shows he’s doing something similar to Maddux. Maddux said he thought the dumbest thing pitchers do is go for the strikeout essentially by wasting a pitch when ahead 0-2— his attitude was always that an out is an out. In that sense, Maddux didn’t have an ‘out’ pitch, he went after the hitter the same way 0-2 as he would 3-2 or 3-0. Maddux was top 10 in CG and IP every year for over a decade due in large part to that approach. On top of that, he averaged 91 pitches/start in his career. Compare that to a strikeout pitcher like Clemens, who averaged 111 pitches/start, a number that is somewhat skewed downward by his later years (Maddux, by contrast never averaged over 96 pitches/start after 1994).

I like to see that. From a fan perspective, it may seem like K’s are a big adrenaline boost, but for hitters, I’ll bet just about any will tell you, they like the guys who get quick innings. Guys that throw a lot of pitches are death for their own offenses.

by redflag on Mar 5, 2011 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

Maddux had pretty decent strikeout rates during his peak

But sure, not much over 7 k/9. That’s 1.5-2 more per 9 inning game than Leake. Mostly, though, he didn’t walk batters and had an insane GB%.

Thing is, Maddux is sort of a unique case. If everyone could get by pitching that way, then there’d be a lot more pitchers who pitch that way—because they’d be successful. Most people don’t have the kind of insane movement and ungodly command that Maddux had. That’s why he was so ridiculous.

I tend to believe in a selection argument—pitchers pitch and batters bat the way they do today, even if it’s different than 30 years ago, because pitchers and batters that use those approaches are successful. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be playing baseball at the major league level—at least not with those approaches.
-j

by JinAZ on Mar 6, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Maddux didn’t strike out over 6/9IP until his (appropriately) 6th season in the majors, topping 7/9IP only 3 times with an aberrant high of 7.8 in that unholy 1995, and six or more only 11 out of his 23 seasons (not that it’s fair to include his later years). Leake in his first year struck out 5.9— I’m trying to be optimistic here, I don’t expect Leake to be another Maddux, but in a best case scenario, that’s the kind of pitcher he’s going to be. He seems to have a similar approach to hitters as well.

There is a tendency in some quarters (usually those trying to get you to buy tickets and other things…) to bill every young, marginally successful soft-tossing pitch-to-contact pitcher as ‘the next Greg Maddux,’ which is usually b.s., but in this case, there may be something more to the comparison than is usual. As I say, I’m trying to be optimistic— personally, I want Wood as the 5th starter this year— but think there’s something to Leake, I think he’s smart, studies the game, and could be interesting to watch going forward.

You’re of course right about movement with Maddux, and time will tell with Leake— a lot of pitchers, as Ted Williams would tell you, are meatheads, and I don’t get that vibe with Leake, which is encouraging, I think, as with Maddux, he’ll keep thinking about what he’s doing, tweaking and so forth.

by redflag on Mar 6, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

when i say Leake is the next Maddux it is mostly hyperboyle

but part of me loves the movement on all his pitches. He can’t throw anything straight. He needs to improve his command by a lot, but I really like Leake and think he can be something special.

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 6, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

something along the lines of Bill Lee, who said he was incapable of throwing a pitch at the same speed twice. I’d take it in a heartbeat if Leake turned out like the Spaceman, both in terms of pitching and all the other stuff— that would be fun. I just looked up Lee’s stats— his K/9 was 3.3 over a career!— before he hurt his shoulder in that fight, he was pretty tough, but he almost never struck anyone out.

This is perhaps a discussion for another day, but I can’t imagine someone like Lee getting drafted in the metal bat era. To other (or the same?) Justin’s point regarding success, that has a lot to do with ‘success’ in HS and college, namely the guys who get drafted. If you can miss bats, you’ll do fine in HS and college, though you may have no idea what you’re doing (cf Homer Bailey’s learning curve— Bailey, for instance, hardly walked anyone in HS, mostly because they’re swinging all the time— it’s speed, speed and more speed, they catch up to it or they don’t). A guy like Lee wouldn’t get hit hard, but he’d get hit, lots of metal bat dinks just over or through the IF, I don’t think he’d ever have gotten a look in the metal bat era— he went in the 22nd round as it was, out of college, no less. I trust what the Reds have gotten up to in the Jocketty era, taking someone like Leake shows they know something about pitching.

by redflag on Mar 6, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

and Wood

I think that’s right, I think Wood is going to be really special, and I don’t think there are quite so many ifs attached as w/Leake. The Reds have had two really dominant (in their minor league days) pitchers come up in Wood and Cueto, and neither got really any organizational fanfare (I learned about them almost exclusively reading this and Redleg Nation), yet I think Beane tried to snatch away Cueto in the midst of one of the GM turnovers a few years back and the new GM (I think Jocketty, maybe Krivsky) said no way. In recent years, they’ve almost been the anti-Yankees in terms of hyping their prospects.

by redflag on Mar 6, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw some fanfare for Cueto

but he was in Bailey’s shadow. Cueto got some attention when he threw a no hitter (in a rain shortened) Dayton game. Wood was pretty much a secret to everyone until 2009.

"If you have selfish ignorant citizens you're gonna get selfish ignorant leaders."-George Carlin

by justin007000 on Mar 7, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

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