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How replaceable is Brandon Phillips?

A few days ago, John Fay wrote a bit about Brandon Phillips and his future.  BeeP said that because of the extensions the Reds signed with Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Johnny Cueto, and Bronson Arroyo, he started wondering about his own contract.  He is set to make $11 mil this season with a club option for next season at $12 mil, so it's certainly possible, as Fay noted, that the Reds could look to replace him in the near future if they deem the cost of retaining him too prohibitive. 

So this got me thinking:  if the Reds indeed decide to turn the page on the Brandon Phillips era, how easy would it be to replace his production?  Of course, a straight one-for-one replacement is likely impossible.  According to FanGraphs, only five 2B have outperformed Phillips over the past three years, and not a one of them is likely to be available for less money than they would pay him.  Quality costs money, and if the Reds are willing to spend on 2B it might as well be on the BeeP. 

But if the Reds were willing to part with him, they likely wouldn't look to completely replace his production.  Rather, they would look to a player who is significantly cheaper while also providing as much of the lost production as possible.  So the operative question is:  What kind of talent is available that is both cheap enough and good enough to replace Phillips?  If the answer is "eh, not much", it's likely smarter to try to retain him and sign him to an extension.  If the answer is "I think we could get by", it might be time to say bye-bye to BP.

Star-divide

So to figure this out, I started snooping around a bit.  The easiest place to find a replacement would be in the farm system.  Unfortunately, the Reds system is kind of bare when it comes to potential 2B right now.  The most likely candidates I can find to play 2B by next season are Todd Frazier, Kris Negron, Billy Hamilton, and Henry Rodriguez.  Frankly, I'm not comfortable enough with any one of these guys right now to plan on handing them the spot in 2012.  Frazier is the most major-league ready of the bunch, but his glove at 2B is unproven at best.  The Reds think he's far more likely to succeed in LF or maybe at 3B.  Negron had a decent year last year, OPSing .770 in AA, but I don't think he'll hit well enough to stick as a major-league regular.  Hamilton is one of the best prospects in the system, but he's never played a game above short-season ball.  Next year is far too early for him.  Ditto that for Hank-Rod, who will likely start next season in A+ ball.

So that means we'll have to look elsewhere.  Unfortunately, assessing the pool of available quality talent outside the system is far more difficult.  So here's what I did:  I tallied up the number of players who have maintained an average-or-better performance at 2B over the past three years.  I defined "average-or-better" as any player who accumulated six or more WAR over the past three seasons (if two WAR is average for a single season, then six WAR is average over three seasons, right?) while getting the majority of their ABs at the position.  What this will do is give us a snapshot of the overall league-wide talent level at the position.  I then did the same thing for every other position to see how the overall talent at 2B compares to the overall talent elsewhere on the diamond (if a player played more than one position, I counted him at the position he played the most).  The results were pretty interesting.

It turns out that 2B is a relatively dry position right now in baseball.  Only 10 players cleared the (albeit somewhat arbitrary) bar I conjured up.  That's not many compared to the other positions.  Here are the results:  1B - 16;  SS - 13;  3B - 14;  C - 5;  RF - 12;  CF - 14;  LF - 9.  It makes sense that the richest position right now is 1B.  Teams play their strongest hitters there, so though I haven't checked into it, I would venture to guess that 1B is always well-represented in terms of average-or-better players.  Catcher is the least represented, which also makes sense.  Those guys take a beating back there, so only the strong survive. 

It's interesting that 2B and LF are otherwise the least-represented here with average-or-better players.  I think those two positions share something in common that is really unique:  relatively few prospects ever come up at the positions.  Most 2B (like Phillips) are just shortstops that can't stick with the glove.  I think the same goes for LF.  A guy gets moved to LF when he doesn't have the speed to play CF, the arm to play RF, or the athleticism to play the infield.  They are the middle children of positions. 

But it doesn't matter why there is such a paucity of talent at the position, all I'm worried about is whether there is or not.  So back to my original point - the relative talent level at 2B is weak right now.  The likelihood that the Reds can find even a league-average replacement for Phillips doesn't look all that good.  The below-average tier of 2B over the past three years is populated by the likes of Felipe and Jose Lopez, Ryan Theriot, and Freddy Sanchez.  In other words, the mirror images of guys like Edgar Renteria and Orlando Cabrera

So I guess what I'm saying is that it looks like it is a good idea to at least pick up BP's option next year.  The likelihood that the team will be able to find a suitable replacement in the next year is just not good enough.  The best course of action is probably to pick up his option and hope that a prospect emerges who proves himself worthy of the challenge.  If that doesn't happen, they should probably think hard about hammering out a long-term extension.  It's difficult to find a quality 2B out there, so perhaps the smart thing to do is hold on to him if you got one.

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I stopped following him on twitter

So very replaceable…

I think it depends on the money how replaceable he is, and when Billy Hamilton is ready.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Feb 4, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

I'm going to stop following him right now.

I skip over his tweets even more often than I skip over tHan’s.

by Brian B on Feb 4, 2011 8:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

he does tweet a lot!

and most of it is nonsense!

by JTx3 on Feb 5, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at all

I don’t think there is any way BP can be replaced. I also think he would be willing to sign for a team friendly deal with what other 2B have been signing for. I think he is the #1 priority to extend (even over Volquez) after this season.

by JotaEse on Feb 4, 2011 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

I would not extend him yet

I would wait to see how the guys on the farm do in this season, and how BP holds up, and how the market looks going into 2012. BP is on the decline, and I don’t think he’s going to age very gracefully to be honest.

My hope would be that Frazier proves his early season struggles were indeed the result of injury, and that he’ll be ready to take over at 2B when it’s time to make a choice on BP. If not, it becomes a pretty tough decision, as BP is a pretty good player, but he’s going to be paid more than he’s going to be worth.

by kcgard2 on Feb 4, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree about his 'decline'

He posted a career high in OBP and tied his high for OPS+ . That says to me that he was not only trying to, but successfully did contour to the 1 or 2 hole in the lineup. All the while, keeping pretty consistent power, 19 hrs.

This year, he will NOT lead-off the lineup. When Lewis isn’t playing, Stubbs should lead-off. And if Rent-n-Roll is playing, Dusty will either stick him in the 2 hole or the 8 hole, Same for Janish. This will push BP back to his home in the heart of the lineup, which will give him a chance to drive in RBIs with his strong bat.

What in the last 5 years says anything besides super consistent?

"Never fight a land war in Asia"

by Excalib8 on Feb 4, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

He has been very consistent

but I think injuries will take a bigger toll, the loss of foot speed will hurt his defense (already started IMO) and his baserunning, and he does not have much room for error with a bat that maxes out about average. It is not a big fall from BP to Jose Lopez.

by kcgard2 on Feb 4, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Jose Lopez or Freddy Sanchez

are quite as bad as OC or Edgar, but your point stands.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 4, 2011 3:47 PM EST reply actions  

Bravo

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 4, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

out of the mouths of babes

well done. hat tip.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 4, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think picking up the option is a no-brainer at this point

But I think it’s entirely possible that either Hank-Rod or Hamilton will be ready to take the job by 2013. Rodriguez will be 23 and Hamilton will be 22 on OD in 2013. If either of them make huge strides this season, I say you pick up the option and leave it be. If they both struggle, you talk about an extension next offseason.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 4, 2011 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

Agree that it's early

At $11M after the buyout the option isn’t exactly cheap, but there should be room for it with Coco off the books. But I don’t see BP here beyond 2012. The raises for Votto, Bruce, Cueto, and the others will make it tough to justify paying eight figures to a secondbaseman in his 30s. Even if neither of the prospects takes a big step forward this year, I’d be hesitant to talk extension until you have to. I’ve loved the Brandon Phillips era, but over the past few seasons he’s gotten slower and has hit for less power. I don’t see him being an above average player in 2013.

by ken on Feb 5, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

teh fay

says Leake, Wood or Bailey could end up in the pen. Whoever doesn’t make the rotation could move to the bullpen.

He says:

I think Leake is best suited for that role because of his bat. He hit .333 with a .407 on-base percentage last year.

What does he mean by that? If a pitcher’s got a good bat, isn’t that more of a help if he’s starter than if he’s a reliever?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 4, 2011 4:58 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe he's talking about pinch hitting

Sort of like a Micah Owings situation

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 4, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

But Micah Owings pinch hit more when he was a starter than when he was the long man.

When he was a starter, there were 4 days out of 5 he wasn’t needed for anything except pinch hitting. When he was in the bullpen, there was always the chance he’d be needed to pitch, so he didn’t pinch-hit all that often.

by the finest muffins on Feb 4, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

If they’re willing to use Arroyo as a pinch-runner on his off days, they should be willing to use Leake as a pinch-hitter.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 5:53 AM EST up reply actions  

On balance, I think so

Though it depends on how often they’d be willing to PH him – which would have the downside of taking a reliever away. So it would have to happen on days when Leake wasn’t available (or a blow-out situation). If he were to come in during the defensive half, he’d avoid the double-switch – which has the virtue of saving a position player sub. If he was a long reliever, he might get 2 PAs that way every 5-7 days, plus an extra PA or two on days after he pitched multiple innings. That could add up to as many PAs as he’d get starting. But I kinda doubt he’d be used that frequently, given that Micah made 25 apps last year, but only 14 PAs.

Also, having a reliever PH and stay in the game seems logistically difficult, given warm-ups and the possibility of having to stay on the basepaths for a while.

I think it’s daft to consider any of those guys in the ’pen right now. Dusty seems to like having a long-man, so why not use Matt Maloney? With Chapman there already, do we really need to mess with another young starter who should be polishing their starting skills?

To me, Wood is already in the rotation – and Homer deserves at least another half season to be healthy and piece it together. He’s out of options and bullpenning him only drops his trade value.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 4, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Micah also sucked at pitching though

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 4, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

What do people really think of Leake

I trust him as much as I trust Sam LeCure. i think the league got wise to his dart-throwing repertoire and, it’s quite possible I’m wrong, I just don’t think he projects any better than a fourth starter, unless the command and control just increase exponentially.

Then again, what the hell do I know?

by timb116 on Feb 6, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

the league definitely got wise to Leake

they adjusted, he didn’t

let’s see if he can adjust

he could be a MOR SP, but we need to keep him away from Condom Arm

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

His control is fine

Throw out his first two starts and his BB/9 is 2.67.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Feb 6, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

he got shelled after the all star break

glad the ballclub finally shut him down, he wasn’t even suited for mop up duty out of the pen.

hopefully it was just a tired arm and he’s ready to bounce back in 2011.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i hope your right

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think he was fried late in the year

I think he’ll be fine though.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Feb 7, 2011 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

im on the Volks wagon

i’ll wager Edinson outstats Mikey next season

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 7, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

seconded

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 7, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

not a bad band wagon on which to be

considering our options are:

Cueto (crowded)
Volquez (breaks down, hope you got AAA)
Condom Arm (who knows where that’s been?)
Old Hoss (not a bad option)
Wood (obc screens all applicants)
Leake (will he adjust coming into 2011? stay tuned!)

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

obc?

I was on the Wood bandwagon way before that dude.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 8, 2011 4:19 AM EST up reply actions  

makes perfect sense

same role as owings — mop up guy, can PH too. Not sure it has to be Leake tho, I would just make it whoever is doing worst out of the SP candidates.

by cokane on Feb 5, 2011 5:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I still expect Leake to make the team out of ST as a SP.

I think the Reds still have questions about his ability to pitch a full season, and would rather get quality innings out of him at the beginning of the season when he’s still at “full strength” rather than send him to AAA to run up an innings count that doesn’t contribute on the MLB level.

I could see a similar scenario to last year, one where Bailey gets a spot in the rotation (since he’s out of options, right?), Leake gets a spot in the rotation, and Wood (even though I think he’s got the best shot at 200 IP of sub 3.40 ERA ball) will get sent to Louisville so that he’ll be ready to step in to Leake’s rotation spot by mid season.

I’d prefer to have Leake in the ‘pen and have Bailey and Wood in the rotation if possible, I just don’t think that’ll happen unfortunately.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 5, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

if they all stay healthy

(knock on Wood – sorry, Travis!) I think Leake’s the odd man out.

Wood simply pitched better last season. Plus, he’s a lefty on a staff that doesn’t have any others.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

yabbut, there's not a LH hitter in the NLC that scares me.

Pena? Meh. Colby Jack? Meh.

Lotsa righties, though.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 5, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Bruce and Votto!

Oh wait…

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Feb 5, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

even if that's true

Wood pitched better than Leake. The point is to win, right?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

Wood held righties to a .651 OPS last season. He’s good.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't get why Leake HAS to be in the majors

I totally agree that Wood should be the 5th starter. Let Leake fine tune some stuff in AAA. Depth is a good thing.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

certainly better than Condom Arm & Volquez

definitely better than Old Hoss & Leake, and I’d pick him over Cueto

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I told you

I had more confidence in Travis Wood over any other SP from July on. im looking for 15 wins (i know, i know) out of him this season.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

15 is the new 20

i remember pitchers hitting 20 wins somewhat regularly when i was a lil guy. its been, what, 23 years since a Red hit that win total?

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well 200 IP is the new 250

and 250 is the new 300.

32 Starts is a full season of work now.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like Danny Jackson is the answer to the question

as to the year, I’m too lazy to look it up

I’m thawing out after successfully not falling off my roof removing snow and ice today

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Tom Browning won 20 games in 1985

another pitcher who compares to Bronson.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly better than condom arm if healthy

probably better than Old Hoss and Leake. Potentially better than Volquez. About equal with Cueto if they both get a best-case season.

Wood had awesome BABIP luck last season, a very low HR/FB, and a very poor GB%. I think he’s a good pitcher, but then again, so was Volquez for half a season when the league had never seen him before (exactly Wood’s situation). If any regression happens for Wood, it’s going to go in the wrong direction. I’m not ready to call him our best pitcher based on 100 innings, or we would have done so for Bailey, Volquez, Arroyo, or Cueto at various times before.

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

well reasoned

i especially believe that regression will probably be negative.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd like stronger evidence than half a season.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 1:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If that's the case, Dontrelle Willis is our 5th starter.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Feb 6, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I think Leake is the clubhouse leader for the odd man out, but ST could change that. I see him in the bullpen as the 6th starter in waiting. If there is the perception that he has less than a full season of starts, then stepping into the rotation in mid-summer after limited relief innings sounds like a plan instead of using up those innings over the first four months of the season.

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Feb 5, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

But if he's working out of the pen initially

he won’t be ready to start. He’ll need some time to stretch out and build up his endurance and get on a starter’s routine. I think you gotta make the choice one way or another up front, even though Leake seems like the kind of guy that could handle it.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand stretching out

But I’m kind of old-fashioned here and think the specialization gets overdone. Get the best 12 pitchers on the staff from day one. Then assign roles. The roles are not set in stone and may fluctuate as the season progresses. But Bailey, Wood, and Leake are all part of that best dozen pitchers. I don’t want to see any of them in Louisville “staying sharp.”

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Feb 5, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with this is

that you are assuming that those three are still in the best 12 even if they have to relieve.

In other words, it’s entirely possible that one or more of them would completely suck/be thrown off by coming out of the pen. None of them have done it at any time in the recent past, so it’s not a given that they’d be any good at it. Specifically, I think Homer would be terrible at it.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

SSS!

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Allowing leake to start at the mlb or aaa level does more important things than keeping him sharp. It builds arm strength.

If you keep leake in the bullpen or swing him in 2011 he won’t be a 200 ip in 2012.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 1:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Wood in i think 12 starts pitched better than leaked who had more starts

Leaked had similar numbers to wood in his first 12 starts and faced more teams multiple times. I want to see wood go around

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 1:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The league 2 more times.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 1:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

YES!

he’ll have Chapman setting up for him!

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

magic ball says

very unlikely

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Right after that it says

very stupid as well.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 7, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

This is why I love Jay Bruce. He’s remarkably mature and well-grounded for a kid in his position.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 4, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The way Pops feels about Bronson

Is an almost perfect inverse of how I feel about Jay Bruce.

by Brendanukkah on Feb 4, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

i felt the same away about Austin Kearns as you do Jay Bruce

keep him away from Ray King!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 4, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Already has for me

Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix

by Madville on Feb 5, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

always did for me

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 5:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Jay Bruce is probably going to get better

and here’s for another 6-7 years. Why wouldn’t I like him better?

by Grahamophone on Feb 5, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he's there for me already

And that is NO knock on Votto.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Quickly becoming my favorite Red.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Feb 5, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

he's continuing the aaron's aces program himself and keeping the same the same ..

… to honor aaron’s work. bad ass sir … bad ass.

"And a high fly ball to center field. He hit it a ton. And the 2010 National League Central Division Champs are the Cincinnati Reds!"

by joshuar9476 on Feb 5, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, that was pretty awesome

good to keep a memory of Harang around.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 6, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Love it.

The Reds’ two best players are guys I would genuinely want to hang out with, which isn’t something you can say about a lot of teams.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Feb 5, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

i'd trade BP straight up for PIT 2B Neil Walker

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 4, 2011 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

Sure

Now all you have to do is convince the Rats.

Good luck.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Feb 4, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I mean, it’s not like BeeP is the best thing ever, but Walker is lame city.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really.

He had a better offensive season last year than BP, he’s a player with a strong pedigree, and he’s entering his prime rather than leaving it.

I agree that BP is a clearly better player right now (mostly because of defense) but Walker has 5 years of team control left.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 4, 2011 7:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What pedigree?

His career minor-league OPS is only .763. I know he’s been known as a good prospect in the past, but that’s merely decent considering his weak glove.

His performance last year is about as good as one can ever expect from him. I think it’s unlikely he’ll get much better, if at all. Which would be fine, but he’s also probably at least 10 runs worse than BP with the glove, maybe even as much as 20. He’s probably more of a weak-hitting LF than a good-hitting 2B.

If it were a straight-up trade, the difference in service time certainly evens things out, but in a one-to-one comparison he’s nowhere close to the player BP is.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, by 'pedigree' I was mainly referring to the fact that he was always a top 50-75 prospect

That career OPS is a bit misleading because of all the partial seasons where he got promoted for a month and struggled. He did well as a 21 yo in AA and as a 23 yo in AAA.

I think offensively he’s very comparable to BP, and will likely surpass him over the next couple of years. Defensively he’s worse, but that gap will shrink over the next couple of
years.

I really think we’re going to see an ugly aging curve from Brandon. I just hop he holds off until 2013

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 8:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Wait...

You’re going to rely more upon smaller sample sizes than large ones?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

no, but if you look at his minor league numbers

he has an extensive history of getting late season promotions and absolutely sucking in them in about 50-70 PAs. Those times of limited suck really depress his total numbers.

Also, his last 580 PAs in AAA he hit .282/.351/.506. Given all that, I think the entire milb OPS is a bit misleading.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

All right

I’ll grant you that. Still, I doubt he’ll ever be significantly better than BP with the bat. At least, not better enough to bridge the huge gap in defensive ability.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll take that bet. Once again, we're talking about one guy entering his prime and another leaving it.

Like I said, on the whole I think BP will be a better player over the next couple years, but Walker will be $11 million cheaper. I’d do the deal in a second.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we might be having two different conversations here

In one, I’m arguing that Walker doesn’t have the upside to ever match BP’s career. In the other, you are arguing that all things considered, Walker will have more value in the coming years than BP.

I think I win the 1st one easy, but you win the second one. But not as much as I win the first one :)

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on both points

But since the discussion was over whether a straight up trade would be fair, I win :-)

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong

The discussion was about whether or not you’re an idiot. So I totally win.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That's no discussion

I’m definitely an idiot. But tomorrow I could be smarter, and you’ll still be ugly.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Neil Walker

but I suspect the Pirates like him more.

The fans fell in love with him, and since they’ve lost all their other big name players, I think they’ll want to keep Walker. First round draft pick, plus he’s a Pittsburgh boy.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 4, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

he can't field

sooo that’s sort of unintersting to me.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 6, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Me?

If Frazier progresses even a bit, I’d like the Reds to stick him at 2B and use BP’s money at SS or LF, where I think an additional $11-12M would do more good for the team.

But really, I think it’s way too early to give it alot of thought. By the All-Star break, the Reds will have much better idea if there’s a viable in-house candidate and if they think BP will be worth the money going forward.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Feb 4, 2011 5:44 PM EST reply actions  

This.

That’s what I’ve wanted for awhile. I think Frazier’s bat would play there, but about that glove…

Calmer than you are.

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Feb 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Frazier is gonna be a starting infielder

Just doesn’t have the glove for it.

Either he learns to hit well enough to be a corner OFer, or he’s a utility guy.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 9, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think your forgetting two players

Cozart and valaika. They could be potential replacements, if valaikas power comes back he could really be quite valuable. Cozart wouldnt be a downgrade defensively from phillips, and still has some potential with the bat

"strikeouts are a lot sexier than groundouts"

by smitty3 on Feb 4, 2011 6:36 PM EST reply actions  

Janish can play 2nd too

But he also does not have the bat to play at a currently premium offensive position. I think Vailakia is a poor man’s Uggla.

"Never fight a land war in Asia"

by Excalib8 on Feb 4, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Valaika's bat is a little better than Janish's

However, his glove is worse.

If Valaika can be Uggla, I’d take it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 4, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I forgot Valaika, honestly

but I think he’s a tick above Negron. I wouldn’t want to rely on him.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, what?

Second base is a premium offensive position?

When did this happen?

by MatthewH on Feb 4, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Valaika doesn't resemble Uggla in the least

although Uggla did have a strange development path in the minors, I still can’t see any way he ever even approaches Uggla’s production.

by kcgard2 on Feb 4, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I just ment a 2nd basement with power

And not that great defense.

"Never fight a land war in Asia"

by Excalib8 on Feb 5, 2011 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Where is this power you speak of?

Valaika has shown absolutely no power since 2008.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 8:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

they're both Caucasian

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Isnt valaika a decent defensive second baseman?

I mean he will never be a brandon phillips, but he is certainly better than uggla

"strikeouts are a lot sexier than groundouts"

by smitty3 on Feb 5, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Another dissimilarity

the comparison kinda blows my mind (not literally)

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

The Super Bowl

Looks like it’s turning into a super mess.

They had rolling blackouts in Texas; because of the unusually cold temps, there wasn’t enough natural gas/electricity. The stadium was exempt, but the hotels where fans were staying weren’t.

Now ice has fallen off the roof, injuring people. And so many flights are canceled people might not be able to get there in time.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 4, 2011 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

Cue another 500 journalists bitching about that in their articles tommorrow

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 4, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Was it because of the concussion debacle?

Not their finest moment.

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 5, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

That

and the Jay Cutler thing. And the general awfulness of the Bengals and Browns. And the fact that I’m becoming increasingly more aware that football is not baseball.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I used to be a bigger football fan before the baseball blogosphere sucked me in

Part of my losing interest in football was the fading glory of the Favre years, but even this year I’m happy but not ecstatic that Green Bay is back in the super bowl. There’s just a lot about football that turns me off. Mostly listening to others talk about it.

by ken on Feb 5, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

One of the biggest football fans in the world.

College Football.

"Me carrying a briefcase is like a hot dog wearing earrings." ~ Sparky Anderson

by BigBabyBruce on Feb 5, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh

I’m even getting bored with that. 90% of the games are totally unwatchable. Why should I care to watch OSU beat up on Kent State?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think the storylines are more interesting

Cammy Cam and the bribes were fascinating, the Oregon death machine was fun to hear about, and the back-stabbing and bitching of old men is fun to watch.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 6, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I’ve never gotten into NFL. I’ll watch casually if I have nothing to do on Sundays, but I don’t have a team- just kind of root for ex-Tigers to do well.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Feb 5, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

that would be pretty sweet actually

I want to see baseball get more of the national limelight that they haven’t regained since 1994, and the NFL shooting themselves in the foot will certainly help

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree

I’ve come to really despise the NFL. The overmarketing and the fact that ESPN just shoves football down my throat 24/7/365 has become too much. The NFL has become more of a soap opera than a professional sports league. It’s more about who tweeted what or what players are saying about one another or who’s holding out for the longest during training camp. I like the sport mostly, just not everything that surrounds it. I really hope they lock out.

Consume excrement and expire......

by adaircam4 on Feb 5, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I think losing a season to a strike would knock them down a peg or two

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

comparing notes

Baseball and hockey both recovered and flourished after labor issues that we all thought would kill them. Hell, the NHL didn’t even play at all one year and came back strong, thanks to some smart execs and front offices.

The NFL would doubtless do the same. There are a few currently weak teams in the NFL, but there aren’t any truly desperate franchises.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't exactly say that the NHL has recovered.

They are still relegated to Versus.

I was just saying Justin is off base in thinking the NFL would miss a season due to a strike. If there is any game time missed it will be because of a lockout.

by 'tHan on Feb 6, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, it's not the greatest sport

but the NHL was in worse shape before the lockout than it is now. There were some very serious problems in some cities before that. They haven’t gotten a great fan base as a result but globally, hockey is still pretty popular. Maybe, yeah, on a par with bad soccer.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

even the English Premiere League is on the Deuce...

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

and YES

I can watch all the futbol I want on ESPN2 or YES up here

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it in English?

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

bully!

bloody well play’d

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

where did i say they would lose a season?

i said that if they do, it would knock them down a peg or two.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting

the owners want to back up and retreat from their last CBA. aint that the one Bills owner and Mikey Brown voted against….and took heat for doing so?

read the details on that deal. the owners cut a deal with the devil and now want to backtrack. meh, that aint the way professional sports work Einsteins. I’m actually on the players side on this spat.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

A recent poll says Football is twice as popular as baseball in the united states

The NFL had something like 8 of the 10 highest rated shows on TV last year.

The NFL is a great league with great marketing & great fan support. The product is more exciting than baseball & is more appealing to the average fan. It’s also something you can build your week around because it doesn’t happen every day.

Another plus for the NFL is that they haven’t had Bud Selig as their commissioner for 20 years. I’m surprised to see all the NFL hate on here. There will not be a lockout & the NFL will continue to rule sports in the US for the next several years.

by 'tHan on Feb 5, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I love football

They’ve done a lot of things right.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

See, I think the once a week thing is one of the huge negatives

Because football is now a sport that gets talked about 1000x more than actually played. And the main reason the sport is so popular is that this country worships violence. With the timeouts, challenges, and commercials, I find it to be slower paced than baseball.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 9:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

how many football games have you paid to attend in last five years?

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Zero.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Feb 5, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

And this is

primarily because the Bengals have bottomed out more times than Charlie Sheen and I like football better on television.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Feb 5, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

zero for me too

Tix Too pricy and too shitty a team to freeze my ass off at pbs….

This from the kid that happily dropped eighty bucks on wrigley bleacher seats last aug.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Feb 5, 2011 9:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Oh, see

I understand that it’s extremely popular. That doesn’t change the fact that it sucks. I agree with adaircam4 above when he/she said “I like the sport mostly, just not everything that surrounds it.” The production is so melodramatic. Everything is dripping with purple prose. I can’t believe something so violent (which is good) could be presented so treacly.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

No

I’m assuming I shouldn’t?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

you like homosexual tension presented heterosexually?

hate people with tans? then boy, its right for you.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 6, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I had grown more fond of Football (NFL)

because the playing field is more equitable. Small and Large market teams spend roughly the same amounts of money. Baseball still bothers me beacuase of the unfair advantage large market teams have over the smaller market teams.

Having said that, I love baseball as a sport and the Reds no matter what.

"When you chart (the plays) and see where it broke down there was no common theme to it." - Bob Bratkowski

by featherman on Feb 5, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

that is definitely one of the things the NFL does right

I hope they don’t screw that up.

I started out a football fan, and learned to love baseball relatively recently. (There’s nothing like a convert!) But I still enjoy football. It’s exciting in a way baseball isn’t.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The flip side to that parity

is that teams rarely stay good for long. I mean, people are talking about the Steelers as a dynasty and they miss the playoffs every other year. Some people like that, but I hate the fact that you really have no idea if your team is going to be any good or not from year to year.

Part of that is injuries (like the Colts this year) but part of it is just that no one stays good for very long. That drives me crazy.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

It’s nice to be a dynasty. :-)

Though it’s free agency that I find more off-putting. Players move around so much it’s hard to get to know them these days. Baseball’s been affected, too, but it seems much worse in football.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

but

in MLB Green Bay or Buffalo wouldn’t even be viable franchise.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya I dun get all this NFL hate on here

I guess I can understand with the Bengals being so epically incompetent why some here might be turned off. But in terms of how the leagues are run—NFL is far superior. The revenue sharing and the imbalance in baseballs is a joke. Look at the Toronto Blue Jays and the Baltimore Orioles for a great example of the damage this can cause.

I disagree with others that there isn’t much longevity to good teams either. One factor is definitely shorter career spans for NFL players. But the Colts and Patriots have been dominant for a very long time. And is anybody actually enchanted by the NYY’s current “dynasty”?

by cokane on Feb 5, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, this. I mean, that attitude is present in all sports to some degree, but in football it's to a silly degree

also, it’s not so much that the league is run better, but it’s more that the NFL player’s union is easily the worst in pro sports. If you want to talk about a joke, how about the fact that there is almost no guaranteed money in contracts, and the union basically forgets about it’s players once they leave the league. Imagine if that NYY dynasty could just cut ARod right now without owing him a penny, or if they could just cut Jeter next offseason. Now imagine that injuries are twice as common in baseball. It would completely change and, IMO, ruin, the nature of team-building in the MLB.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 5, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is what I hate.

Throw in a serious steroids problem and you pretty much have the Roman gladiators. That’s what really bugs me.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Feb 6, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I have become tired of players mugging for the camera after every play.

Someone is always pretending to rip their shirt off Hulkamaniac style, or playing air guitar, or hammering imaginary nails into the ground.

Watch it, ass blood.

by -ManBearPig on Feb 6, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

non-guaranteed contracts, replays replays replays also

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Feb 6, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the NFL is much easier to run, from management's standpoint

National TV deals made much more sense for football. It’s only played once a week, and baseball is a much more of a local sport. You see a lot more fans of out of town teams in football than baseball. The upshot is owners don’t have to worry about negotiating their own TV deals and know that they’ll get the same share as their competitors.

They’ve also dealt with a historically docile player’s union. It makes it much easier to run a team if you don’t have to worry about guaranteed contracts and can use the franchise tag to retain guys without breaking the bank.

by ken on Feb 5, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I love football

College Football is 10x greater than the NFL.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Feb 5, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a damn travesty we haven't dealt Votto yet

Hopefully Bruce will have a .300/40/120 season, so we can trade him to.

by ken on Feb 5, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Loria'd

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 5, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

you are being sarcastic

but i really think that if votto isn’t open to an extension after the 2011 season it will be time to trade him.

by 'tHan on Feb 5, 2011 8:18 AM EST up reply actions  

nah

let him walk and get a late first round draft pick from the contending team that signs him

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Or swap him at the deadline

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe after 2012

Depending on how the team is doing. But I don’t have any problem with rolling the dice these next three years and then giving Votto a going-away party.

by ken on Feb 5, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

the haul for votto after next year could be enormous.

it could be enough to set us up for success in the future.

holding on to votto too long is the most dangerous thing the reds can do.

by 'tHan on Feb 6, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

tHan I gotta disagree

you don’t trade one of the best players in MLB, while your team is competitive, and while he is under contract for multiple years, just in order to gamble on players you receive being good in the future. That would be foolish. Especially if there’s a chance you could extend that awesome player.

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

he said after next year

Votto would no longer be under contract for multiple years then. He’d be in the last year of the contract.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 6, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

what I have learned

is if you look too far into the future, you get old and miss what’s happening now.

Votto and the Reds will be a fun team to watch this year and next. After that, they will do like all teams do: they will re-tool and reload.

Using current talent to evaluate future talent is fun to discuss.

I want to see this highly motivated team continue to play competitive baseball. If they fall to 5th place again, we shall see how highly competitive they play as a team.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, after next year he'd have two years left

since we just signed a 3-year deal. Actually, depending on how you read it, you could be right. I read it as shopping him after this coming season. After 2012, I agree we should be open to the possibility of shopping him.

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

they would be fools not to

what if they can get a 3 way trade that includes Hanley and Heyward?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

the Reds have a penchant for hanging onto guys for too long

again, not that I want to see the Reds get rid of Votto, but just buying out his Arbitration years tells me that the Reds can’t afford him post Arbitration years and Jo-eh knows it.

the haul could be e-freaking-normous and we need to entertain that

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Puzzled on this one ...

HLM, you argued last week that the Reds were hasty in unloading Josh Hamilton. Now you are saying the team hangs onto players too long. I can’t see where we can prove that in recent seasons, at least the Dusty years.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Josh Hamilton was dealt when he was under team control for something like 5 years.

that’s a big difference from the time we’ll have Votto. Hold on to him too long & all you get is Micah Owings.

by 'tHan on Feb 6, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't get it on Votto

This is a 27-year-old lefthanded hitting first baseman. He can play at a level above the norm for another 10 years, easy.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

this is all contingent on him not being interested in an extension

if he’s not signing with us long term, it doesn’t matter how good he’s going to be the next 10 years.

by 'tHan on Feb 6, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

and we really can't go into his last year of bought out arbitration to then move him

unfortunately if we haven’t extended him by trade deadline 2012, that might be the last we’ve seen of Jo-eh in a Reds uni

we can’t just let talent like that walk and get nothing in return

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

you can’t let your team fall off a cliff, when you can do something to try & prepare for a future without Votto.

by 'tHan on Feb 6, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If Votto goes, he goes ...

My point generally is that the team will have changed anyway and Votto’s contributions will be different. If the Reds know that he won’t be here in 3 years, I would think they wouldn’t wait until the barn door is open to catch another horse.

But obviously we can’t trade him this week just because we aren’t sure what will happen in 2015.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Junya Griffey theory, eh?

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean I hate to talk about it

but, he signed an extension that bought out just his arbitration years

it’s not like we have him for anything more than that, which say to me that we either literally bought ourselves an extension to work out a FA deal, or we bought ourselves a window to shop him between now and trade deadline 2012. No team in their right mind would trade for him as a rental in 2013.

hopefully this team remains legit and we can creep towards the $100 MM payroll mark little by little, which means we’ll be able to afford him

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

true

but its the NYY who will be able to afford the last 7 of those 10 years…

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

well, yeah

If Votto wants out, I hope he says so in plenty of time so we can retool that position. If he’s worth keeping, we ought to make that effort. If NYY is where he wants to go, I’d say … see ya, we will find somebody else.

He hasn’t said that, I think.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont think he'll wind up in NY

but I can see SF. Denver. Anaheim. STL. maybe a few others. non-big market ballclubs that will pay market prices for his wares.

just a hunch, but I think Joey understands market valuation very well and will want to make big coin when he’s a FA. Especially considering he will probably feel obligated to set his two siblings up for life.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I would like to believe

that if the Reds can put together a few winning seasons, we can have a payroll equal to St. Louis.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

good point

its not like there are any winning sports teams in town to compete against for the sports entertainment dollar…

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

And the market size of Cincinnati and St. Louis is comparable

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

three siblings

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 6, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It might be time to teach Alonzo to play ball

He has to be ready to sniff the roses by now.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

we moved Hamilton after one season, and had him under control for at least 4 more seasons

we basically have a 3 year window to move Votto beginning Opening Day 2011 to try and maximize the haul

we’ve held onto Phillips for way too long, much like we held onto Condom Arm for way too long

we did the same thing with Dunn, sadly, since we didn’t keep him long term and didn’t trade him during his arbitration years

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I still don't get it

We are supposed to trade off our top talent while we can get somebody in return who is not quite as good but is almost ready to be as good.

If we had traded Phillips 2 years ago to get some other kid, we’d be ready to trade him too. I guess I get it on team upgrades, but at some point, you have to say mature talent is what you have.

Meat market baseball … nice for fantasy players. The fans learn to like certain guys.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't want us to trade off our top talent

but being not a big market we can’t afford all of our talent, so we have to make decisions

younger players get older and more expensive, and that’s when you have to make those decisions as to who you keep and who you trade

I think we made the wrong decision on Phillips, especially with him making $11MM this year, with a $12MM option next year

Unless the Reds continue to find ways to increase their payroll, they’ll always have these decisions. I don’t want the Reds to trade away top talent, but top talent is a way to re-stock. It’s not like you’re going to trade spare parts and think someone will give you something of value, right?

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

the deal on BP, I think

was that decisions reached a couple of years ago were made because the team was really not headed in any particular direction.
Even in March last year, we were all figuring .500 was an OK goal.

So we had BP, a curious phenomenon in right field, a great first baseman and some other ideas. But to say we made a mistake on BP is kinda sorta not fair. That was where the team WAS at that time.

We are seeing it through a different window now and we’d have made a different decision had we known this team would come to life like it did.

The Reds are making different kinds of contract deals now than they did in the end of the Krivsky era.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

thank gawd the ballclub didnt sign janish long term this offseason

he’ll definitely be harded to trade. life is good!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I diasgree on Dunn and Phillips

There’s been no replacement for Phillips especially, and his contract is not in any way an albatross, and his production is still good. If we extend him at his current price, then that’s possibly a different story, but the team is better with him than without him, and we’re contending.

With Dunn, it may have been better to hang on to him and get draft picks than what we actually got. Either that, or trade him earlier than we did, but who knows what the return might have been, then. Or perhaps the best option would have been to wait him out and pay him $10 million for last year as a FA rather than the Gomes/Nix/Dickerson trifecta of the past few seasons.

In any case we aren’t the Rays – we don’t have to trade every FA with a year of control left. We have a higher payroll and a much worse farm system for replacing those types with.

by kcgard2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

BP was never a guy you'd build around

Votto and Bruce, they’re different

since you mentioned Votto, it really wouldn’t surprise me if we dealt him before the end of his latest deal if we don’t extend him. I don’t want to see that, but it wouldn’t surprise me

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Why replace BP

He’s a a really talented fielder and a decent hitter…who do you want instead Chris Valiaka?

Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix

by Madville on Feb 5, 2011 12:45 AM EST reply actions  

BP has been one of my favorite players

ever since the Reds basically stole him from the Indians, but I’m really excited to see what Hamilton can do the the ML level. Picking up the option on BP is a good idea while Hamilton develops, but I’m afraid BP’s value has topped out. His defense is stellar, but his speed has declined. We’ll see how it works out, but I don’t see BP with the Reds for much longer.

Consume excrement and expire......

by adaircam4 on Feb 5, 2011 1:05 AM EST reply actions  

WTH ... Leyritz?

The Newark Bears

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 5, 2011 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

Can you think of a more perfect city for him than Newark though?

Match made in heaven somewhere trashy

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

but the road trips are nice

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 5, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

too soon?

nahhhh

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope he's learned his lesson

‘cause I doubt they’ll be as lenient with him in NJ as they were in Florida.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

The other driver was intoxicated as well, and his lawyers were able to convince the jury that maybe she was the one who went through a red light.

In many ways, it reminded me of the Nick Adenhart case. The girl who was driving his car was intoxicated as well (not to mention too young to drink). But in that case, the driver who hit them got 51 years, and won’t be eligible for parole until he’s served 49.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 6, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That whole DUI case

was a scenario from Lawyers in Love. Leyritz was as guilty as was the person he killed. Had it gone the other way, meaning had Leyritz died, one wonders if her attorney could have been so good at reality management.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

/Donte Stallworth'd

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 6, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Vlad to the Orioles for 1 year/8M

Good or bad deal for them? Sounds like they plan to use him as a clean-up guy.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Feb 5, 2011 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

can't believe Vlad got $8MM and Manny got $2MM

I don’t think “character” is worth $6MM

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 5, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think it might be in this case

Manny’s not just a Gary Sheffield type, always griping about his contract. And it’s more than not running out groundballs (though he was clocked 8 seconds, home to 1B).

He gives up when his team falls behind. Who needs that? You want your cleanup hitter to pick the team up, not drag them down.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

why would it?

if he doesn’t get suspended it doesn’t matter, if he is suspended they don’t pay him anyway. In fact a player with a PED problem is less of a risk than a player with an injury problem, because you have to pay him for his time off with injuries.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Feb 6, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe they're afraid

He sucks without PEDs.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 7, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

a Conversation Hearts prankster

A 12-year-old girl found a candy heart that said, “Nice tits.”

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

Prankster?

I find that to be a legitimate pick-up line.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Feb 5, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

you're 14

You don’t even pick your socks yet!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes he does.

How do you think he earned that-there internet handle.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Feb 5, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, look.

It’s THIS joke again.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Feb 5, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

He doesn't use virgin olive oil on his sexsalad, that's for sure

"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."

Dusty Baker on RR

by DTFH91 on Feb 5, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If anyone makes any reference to "cherries," I might just have to kill them.

Either that or high five them. I haven’t decided.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Feb 5, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Gravy

I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige

by Madville on Feb 6, 2011 5:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha, yeah. And don't even think about adding croutons!

/you’re doing it wrong’d

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Feb 6, 2011 9:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I CANNOT believe Fay wrote an article about the Reds getting rid of Phillips!

That is like, such a shocker, I mean Fay fantasy. Any news of whether Fay is chipping on moving expenses? Apparently, John’s axe continues to require sharpening.

I had a friend who used to say what the use is a grudge unless you are gonna carry it. I’m wondering if he and Fay have the same mentors

by timb116 on Feb 6, 2011 2:34 PM EST reply actions  

well, look around the roster

It’s clear that the only guy you can truly “pick on” is BP. I don’t think anybody in the Hot Stove League would get excited if we said Gomes or Janish was being peddled.

BP was the only logical choice for trade talk. It’s more of the Fya being caught up in having to write something than actually giving a damn if he’s right about it.

Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

by johnu1 on Feb 6, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Keith Urban is on the NFL pregame show

he should tour with Toby Keith!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:00 PM EST reply actions  

he looks like he's been at jch's gym

tanned and toned!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

FTFY

tanned and Stoned

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Feb 6, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

do you know tricia macke's middle name?

i know her mother’s maiden name!

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Feb 6, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

This hasn't gotten enough love, well done John

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Feb 7, 2011 8:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Extend a speedy, strong defensive 2B at 30 or 31?!?!? No way!

BP will turn 30 this June and 31 next June. Any extension will be for too many years and/or too many dollars per year for a player that will all too soon be on the downside of his career. Pick up the option for 2012, then hope a prospect can step up or sign someone off the scrap heap for a million or so. Absolute production might not be the same, but production per dollar might be the same or better.

by hutchiam on Feb 9, 2011 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

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