Bronson Arroyo, Andy Pettitte, and the Future of Cincinnati's "Nasty Hook"
by justin007000 on Feb 3, 2011 3:14 PM EST
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Long time Yankee pitcher Andy Pettitte will officially retire from baseball tomorrow. Pettitte is best known for his post season theatrics, especially when he burst onto the scene in 1996 and shut down the Atlanta Braves. After reading about Pettitte's upcoming retirement I looked over his stats and noticed he had a very good career with solid control and mediocre strike out numbers.
Watching Pettitte, there was nothing really fantastic about him, he didn't throw terribly hard and none of his breaking balls were lights out. He simply had a number of good pitchers and solid command which allowed him to continue to get hitters out. His other big attribute was his ability to go deep into games. He averaged 6.3 innings per start in his big league career and compiled 10 200 inning seasons, and he only failed to make 30+ starts 3 times.
Yet his strike out numbers were pretty pedestrian, over his career he averaged 6.63 K/9IP but posted a solid 2.83 BB/9IP and 2.34 K/BB. He also didn't throw terribly hard, since 2002 his average fastball is 88.9 MPH.
Compare those to Bronson Arroyo's numbers. Arroyo has a career average of 6.01 K/9IP, 2.73 BB/9IP, 2.2 K/BB, and like Pettitte doesn't throw terribly hard, (average fastball since 2002 88.5 MPH), yet throws a slew of pitches and is able to out think the batter.
Many people at RR and other blogs have argued the Arroyo's lack of strikeouts and stuff makes him a mediocre pitcher who is bound to breakdown and fall into Jeff Suppan territory before the end of his extension; arguing that almost all pitchers who have pedestrian stuff fall off a cliff in their early to mid 30s. Most Arroyo comps have been gloomy. Yet Pettitte proves that there are some pitchers who can make an almost Hall of Fame career, with an average fastball and strike out numbers.
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yep he's way off base with this?
or yep you agree that Condom Arm could be our very own Jeff Goldblum?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Bronson is going to win 16 games this season
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
And it still
won’t be a good indication of his actual value.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 4, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
id say Walt is pretty qualified to judge Bronson's actual value
of course, many here will argue that they, themselves, are much more qualified to make GM decisions for the reigning NL Central ballclub tnan Jocketty.
7 consecutive years of making 32+ starts is definitely valuable.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I'm not questioning that.
I just dislike the mutherfucker. And, I think his innings and win totals inflate his value. He has value, don’t get me wrong, I just think he’s a #5 starter on this team. That’s my opinion, and it probably stinks just like the breath of the rest of the assholes here.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
Shut up and kiss me.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn't agree more
He’s our #5 starter, but b/c he pitches a lot of innings, and b/c of those innings racks up some wins along the way, he seems somewhat valuable.
that being said, we won the Arroyo/WMP trade, as opposed to getting owned in the Volquez/Hamilton trade, so part of me can never forget that, even though I hate him only slightly less than Pops
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 4, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we won the trade, but what I hate is that Arroyo is so extremely overpaid.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
that's what I hate about his latest contract
we’re overpaying out the ass for a #5 starter
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
name the last Reds starting pitcher
to win more games as a Red than Bronson Arroyo.
tjen name the last five.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
LMFTFH
“Name the last innings-eater to pitch an injury-free season for the Reds while they’ve had a lineup that could consistently score runs.”
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 5, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
you prefer losses?
i think the whole “wins aren’t good” line of reasoning is ridiculous.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
Good point.
Arroyo must be one of the Reds pitchers racking up the most losses over the past few years.
He’s good!
Wait. What?
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 5, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
areuserious?
I think you are taking this shit-stirring thing a bit too far, man.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
just sayin
advanced stats aren’t the be all end all some folks pretend that they are. i think its a tad bit snotty to discount Wins and Runs Scored and RBI and other counting stats…
wins have value as do inning pitched. bronson wins games because he, generally, goes deep into ballgames and keeps his ballclub “in the game”. start after start, season after season.
help me understand how that is a bad thing?
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
he also loses ballgames
he’s barely above a .500 pitcher since he’s been a Red
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
I'll add this and then I'll but out..
The wins come with the territory of being an injury-free innings-eater. He’s durable and he knows how to pitch out of some jams and yes, that has a significant value and yes, that can be measures in ‘wins.’
If that’s how you want to do things.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 5, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's not a bad thing
It’s just not even close to the best thing.
You seem to see all things as very black and white. I’m not saying advanced stats are perfect and wins are garbage – It’s a little more nuanced than that. I’m saying advanced stats do a much better job at capturing what a player does well than trad stats do. Of course wins are a measure of how good or bad a pitcher is. It’s just not the most effective one.
But I suspect you already know all this. You’ve already dragged me into your troll trap. Dammit.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
methinks he actually thinks Condom Arm has value
and is better than a #5 starter
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See, that's just it
I do too. Of course a pitcher who throws 200 innings is valuable, and is likely better than 4 other starters on the team. But I think he’s less interested in understanding a nuanced truth like that and more interested in starting shit.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 5, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think Arroyo has a lot of value to this team this year.
That being said, I think it’s entirely possible that he could be dead weight next year. I would have gambled with taking the option this year, but obviously, I’m not Walt, and I’m not worrying about hurting anyone’s feelings.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
obc has been on the Bronson bandwagon from the beginning
This isn’t a Janish situation with him, trust me. I’ve heard all about Arroyo from him for 4 years or so at this point.
I also think it’s just as useless to call someone a troll just because they’re presenting the side of an argument you don’t agree with.
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
by jch24 on Feb 8, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
useless is a strong word, make that counterproductive
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
Ok
But that’s not what’s going on here. I’m not calling him a troll because he’s presenting the side of an argument I disagree with. Actually, I agree with him that Bronson is a valuable player. He just doesn’t want to see it that way.
Also, he wants to act like I and others think trad stats are totally worthless and saber-stats are perfect.
“advanced stats aren’t the be all end all some folks pretend that they are. i think its a tad bit snotty to discount Wins and Runs Scored and RBI and other counting stats”
Again, he’s bending the conversation instead of addressing what was actually said. He’s creating straw men, which is basically Internet Troll 101. And it would really piss me off if I wasn’t aware of what he’s really doing.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 8, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
take a deep breath, chuck
i think you’re bending the “argument” by utilizing the ad hominem logical fallacy.
here’s a link to The Nizkor Project for those that want to study up on the 40 other types of argumentative fallacies…
when is say “some folks” it wasnt a personal attack. i would have referred to you directly if I was looking to call you out.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
they really should just rename the Internet ad hominem
b/c that does seem to be the most favorite flavor of logical fallacy run amok on the interwebz
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 8, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
ad hominem?
Your an idiot!
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
Wins over a career has some value, because the luck tends to even out
But for a single season they’re not much help. Put too much stock in one year’s W-L and you end up giving extensions to the Jimmy Hayneses of baseball.
wins over a career has "some" value?
don’t go out on a ledge…
i completely agree with one year aberrations. Jimmy Haynes is a terrific example of an outlier. Granted, there were little to no other options to replace him in the starting rotation in that timeframe but methinks a good GM and scouting director would have realized he was a condor arm.
it still pisses me off he threw the first pitch ever at GABP. UGH!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
wins are good when in context with losses
Condom Arm has won 70 games the last 5 seasons with the Reds (he’s awesome!)
Condom Arm has lost 60 games the last 5 season with the Reds (oh noes!)
So yeah, a guy that averaged 14 – 12 over the last 5 seasons, that tells me he just pitched a lot of innings. 169 total starts over those 5 seasons, 130 decision, only 39 NDs in 5 seasons?
You draw your own conclusions, I have mine.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
your conclusions are wrong
im actually starting to accept Drew Stubbs also. Marty says he can be better than Jay Bruce. That took me by surprise.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I think it would be tough to be better than Bruce
But I also think that Bruce is going to be Vottoawesome, and soon. But I do think Stubbs will be very good. I’d give him a chance at making an All-Star game in his career.
by Brendanukkah on Feb 5, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Joey Votto is pretty awesome.
And he’s Canadian. But not all things Canadian are as awesome as Joey Votto. Some are just pretty cool in that quirky Canadian way.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 5, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
RR is slowly beating me into submission on Young Robert
he is what he is, and he ain’t gonna be what I want him to be
he fast, which I love, and he plays some pretty good D (although people around these parts need to admit he was disappointing at times compared to the hype)
offensively, he leaves me wanting more, and I want him to be a different ballplayer
but my conclusions about Condom Arm ain’t wrong, and Marty can go blow Mads
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
dude, Stubbs has played 1 year. 1.
Give him a chance to know GABP’s outfield like the back of his hand, and a few of those misplays that you call “disappointing” will become even more great defensive plays.
He can fly, he can catch, and he’s got a gun for an arm…that’s much much better than “pretty good D.”
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 5, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I think Stubbs’ D will continue to improve. Bruce stumbled a little bit his first couple of years too in the OF. Sure, Stubbs made some poor plays, but I think that was more a product of inexperience than talent and we’ll see those types of plays faze out.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
pretty sure he had some mishaps on the road too
and it’s a learning curve, which is fine
but if he’s as good as advertised, shouldn’t we hold him to a higher standard, especially for a 1st Round Draft Pick?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
i was very underwhelmed by Stubbs defense
i was expecting Mike Cameron circa his Reds days
but the kid can motor into the gap and does have a good, not great, accurate arm.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
glad I'm not the only one
although you agreeing with me doesn’t surprise me
he takes excellent routes to balls it seems, but once he gets there every once in awhile it’s like he takes his eye off the ball figuring out where he’s gonna throw the ball once he catches it and that’s when we see some clanks and mishaps
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
I agree as well
he has all the tools to be a really good defensive OF, but I don’t think he’s put it all together. His defense was above average to good last year.
I think some of that is youthful inexperience.
and I’ve been dogging Stubbs too. He’ll figure those things out.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
Marty is an idiot
And he can blow me…
Stubbs is going to a fine player but no Jay Bruce.
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
one year ago i wasnt sure jay bruce was gonna be jay bruce
bat The Kid 4th every day behind Joey!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
LHB back to back?
did you forget who fills out our lineup cards?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
right now I’d be happy if Stubbs turned into a RHB Laynce Nix
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
A career OPS+ of 81?
Only one season (last year) of an OPS+ above 100? Well, Stubbs already has one season of above average offensive stats. I predict that he’ll have one more, thus surpassing Nix.
twas a joke
defensively Stubbs runs circles around Nix
offensively they are completely different animals
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly!
Drew Stubbs is a gazelle, and Laynce Nix is an alien gorilla with no soul.
by the finest muffins on Feb 6, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Nix does look like he belongs on an episode of Jersey Shore
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
The motherfucker is a great bench player
and can pinch hit pretty well…that is in itself an art
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
you had me at hello
Nix is a solid 4th OF for a decent team, and can start for shitty teams
that being said, he should start for the Nats
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
and yet
He couldn’t find anyone to give him a major league deal.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
just b/c The Dusty wasn't smart enough to play him over Gomes last year isn't Laynce's fault
although, dude’s gotta stay healthy
seems like he’s often injured, much like a certain Edinson Volquez, no?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
MLB network
named Dusty the 7th best manager in MLB “right now”.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I can't imagine it's an incredibly difficult job "right now".
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
he has to manage to pack his close for Spring Training
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
Guessing
Scioscia, Bochy, Manuel, Tito, Maddon, Gardenhire
by ken on Feb 8, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
as much as it pains me to type this, I wouldn't put Scioscia ahead of The Dusty
I would put Girardi ahead of him, though
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 8, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
From a distance, Scioscia has done a great job
6 times in the playoffs in 11 years, with good but not outstanding players (no MVPs or CYs I can recall). They also consistently outperform their pythag, for what it’s worth. He has to be no. 1.
by ken on Feb 9, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
my kneejerk reaction
would be to say that Minnesota’s manager is the best in baseball. He has had MVP players, but those were players that developed under his watch.
I dunno
When you have 2 MVP caliber players and you’re not winning year in and year out… I’d give more credit to the GM and scouts than to the manager.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
maybe i am remembering incorrectly
but it seems like the twins have been in the playoffs for something like 30 years straight.
Eh, you might be right
I don’t pay enough attention to the AL.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
It's not entirely fair, but his teams have been lousy in the playoffs
SSS and all but it’s possible that certain kinds of managers are better for the long haul of a regular season and others are better for a short series.
by ken on Feb 9, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
or the Yankees and Red Sox are that good
fucking baseball economics.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
it's partly that
The Twins have run into the Yankee juggernaut the last couple of years.
However, they do not have a 30 year streak of reaching the playoffs. Two or three year streaks, not 30.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
tHan is a God
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
by Madville on Feb 10, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sad but true...
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
where's Quinones?
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 7, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
That is cruel obc
but not as cruel as Sqauatman’s Menu
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
I love me some Pop's sausage
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
i ate leona as a kid
haven’t had the stomach to try it as an adult. anything under 5.99/lb at the deli isnt worth consuming…
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
then never have a ham sandwich made by my wife
she routinely buys ham for under $4/lb
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 8, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
that's bad ham!
Cat, I am…
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
by obc2 on Feb 8, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On the contrary
I would argue that fine ham abounds.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 9, 2011 7:52 AM EST up reply actions
well played sir
words escape me right now
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Did you have to do Avril first?
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
That's just creepy?
Who would want to be Avril Lavigne and Leona Lewis?
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I know baby, I know.
And now you’re preggers.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 8, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wins are a way of looking at a player
but in evaluating Bronson’s individual seasons wins don’t tell the whole story. In 2007 Bronson Arroyo went 9-15 with a 4.23 ERA but in 2008 he went 15-11 with an ERA of 4.77. I would take 2007 over 2008.
But yes a high number of wins over many seasons does usually mean a pitcher goes deep into games and doesn’t allow many runs.
But you have to remember that in 2003 Ramon Ortiz won 15 games with an ERA over 5.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
in a season?
over a set period of years?
what are my parameters?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
wins while wearing a Reds uniform, period
no set time frame.
i think you’ll find that Bronson produces at a level that Reds fans haven’t seen in a generation, or two.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
see my reply above
what he’s done over the last 5 seasons has left me very unimpressed. He’s just pitched a lot of innings and just not had that many NDs
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
He has very few ND because he pitches a lot of innings.
There’s some correlation there. On a team built around young guys, you need to have someone that’s an inning eater to take a bit of pressure off of the bullpen. That’s Arroyo’s role. If people don’t like him as a person, fine- I don’t know enough about him to judge him as a person, but as a pitcher, I’m okay with him.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
The team won almost 61% of Bronson's starts last year
while winning almost 57% of our games overall. So Bronson was slightly better than average in that regard.
The main compounding factor is that Bronson Arroyo gets serious run support – so if you think that’s a skill that Bronson brings to the table, then he’s a great pitcher to have gambled on.
I've been amazed at the run support Condom Arm's received as a Red
as opposed to say a guy like Harang, who received virtually nil
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Defensive support too
which is even stranger. If Bronson isn’t facing the opposing aces, the RS makes sense. But the defensive support is just wierdness. Maybe Bronson really is a lucky charm, so as long as it continues, we should be fine with it…
defensive support
Maybe he’s just the kind of pitcher who generates “gettable” hits?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
so you're saying Condom Arm doesn't get hit hard?
and our guys can get to those balls?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I could buy that, in comparison with Harang
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
So
He is valuable then. What other pitcher can create gold glover’s?
"Me carrying a briefcase is like a hot dog wearing earrings." ~ Sparky Anderson
by BigBabyBruce on Feb 6, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
hat tip to nukkah
one of those comments that after reading I wish I had thought of.
what was the preseason opening line on bronson winning a GG? 50 to 1?
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
It's easily my favorite story of the offseason
I still giggle a little every time I remember that Bronson won a Gold Glove. Just fantastic!
when Maddux won them, it made sense
when Condom Arm won his, I was like FTH?!
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
he has the reputation for being athletic
he finishes well so he can field.
If Johnny Cueto wins a Gold Glove, the world will end.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
This is more likely
Golden Spikes award.
"Me carrying a briefcase is like a hot dog wearing earrings." ~ Sparky Anderson
by BigBabyBruce on Feb 6, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just b/c he has a high leg kick?
that’s athletic?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
ydgi
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
is it b/c we have him pinch run every now and then too?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
YSDGI
If Johnny Cueto wins a Gold Glove, the world will end.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
yeah, I saw the Golden Spikes comment
but you’re saying that Cueto isn’t a good fielder?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
he isn't the greatest
the way he falls off the mound makes it difficult for him to field anything that comes back up the middle quickly.
Bronson is athletic and ends up fairly square with the plate, so he can field anything hit quickly up the middle and get to very weak hit balls hit in the no man zone.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
that's true, he does have that weird recoil follow thru
I think Condom Arm is athletic so he can chase tail
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
i think condom arm
is rapidly becoming one of the most typed phrased on RR!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
One of my many creative
moniker’s for the King of
Skagtitude – Did you know that
it has roots in the old English and Gaelic ‘Rubber Arm’ ?
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
Innings total is pretty important.
It saves your bullpen, and it could mean a win not only today but tomorrow. Plus it means he is healthy and durable.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
Nice straw man argument.
Comparison is solid, though.
"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube
It is a bit of a flawed argument
But it is nice to see a positive comp for arroyo.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
by justin007000 on Feb 3, 2011 7:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What's concerning about Arroyo is how steeply his K rate has dropped
Pettite was fairly steady. His K/9 for the last three years was 7.0, 6.8, and 7.0. Arroyo has gone from 7.3, 5.2, to 5.0. There’s definitely something to pitching to contact and learning to rely on an improved defense, but if his Ks drop much further it’ll be tough for him to remain effective.
Pettitte's ks came back late in his career.
They flucated a bit. He had some seasons where his k rate dipped under 6.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
by justin007000 on Feb 3, 2011 7:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bronson's fine if his peripherals stay the same
Or at least he should be. I’m just concerned about the K rate going much lower. If it dips to something like 4.5, he’s approaching Kirk Reuter territory.
you don't think he'll make the Hall of Fame?
I think he might. Unless they hold the PED thing against him.
Don’t buy the Arroyo comparison, though. Arroyo’s not a lefty.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Outside of his win total and longevity nothing on Pettitte's stat sheet blows me away.
If he spent the balk of career in baltimore he wouldn’t even be in the hof discussion
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
by justin007000 on Feb 3, 2011 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hmmm
was the balk of his career anything like that?
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
The Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor
rates Andy at 123, where 100 is a likely Hall of Famer.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
And Bernie Williams is a 133.
And Jason Kendall is a 108.
I don’t mean to take anything away from Pettite (I’ve always liked him and yeah, sure put him in the Hall of Fame.) But common, why am I even typing the names Bernie Williams and Jason Kendall in this blog post about hypothetical Hall of Famers?
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie Williams is a borderline HOF candidate
just didnt have a long enough career. if he would have limped into his 40s he would have had a counting numbers case.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
so would Eric Davis, but that just didn't happen.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 5, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Charlie Hough pitched 13 years.
In each league.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty weak at math...
But I think that’s like a 60 year career!
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
it does mean that there isnt anyone significantly better to put on the mound in your place, however
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
2004 Presidential Election'd
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, when the Yanks notice they don't have a rotation
and they call up Walt, asking what he wants for Arroyo, what would you say?
Of course, the Boston/NY Damon-Part-II thing would play it all up, and Walt would come away with the amazing prize of…. ?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Brandon Laird?
Might be a decent trade since he is getting a little older (still only 23) and had a rough go of it in AAA (SSS). I’d also take some of their Double-A arms whose names I can’t recall off the top of my head.
I can see this happening.
I don’t know what the Reds could get but this is definitely a trade that the Yankees would make.
Those streets will make you feel brand new, Bronson.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
"Check out my tux!"
“That’s what I call any suit.”
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Justin, I love you.
This is funny.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 3, 2011 11:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
good post
tho i think pettite doesnt even come close to hall of fame material. Pettite and Arroyo are good comps. Arroyo could have a similar career for sure. Hell some of arroyo’s best seasons already are comparable to some of Pettite’s best.
I don't think Pettite is a HOFer either
But I think he’ll get pretty close to getting in.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
then again
my analysis of his HOF status does exclude his post seasons awesomeness. That stuff could definitely help the guy get in or at least get close.
I consider Pettitte as more of a Mike Leake type myself.
by Brian B on Feb 4, 2011 9:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions 4 recs
i despise the yankees with every ounce of hate in my body ...
… but i’ve always tipped my cap to pettitte for some reason that i just can’t put my finger on … even after the PED thing i still liked the guy. now ride off into the sunset and please don’t pull one of those clemons mid season comebacks.
"And a high fly ball to center field. He hit it a ton. And the 2010 National League Central Division Champs are the Cincinnati Reds!"
I'm with you here.
I’ve never been able to bring myself to hate Pettite.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Eh. My Yankee hate doesn't read past the front of the jersey.
Dude juiced, too. Throw him in the pile with the rest of ’em.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Feb 4, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Good thing
There’s no words on the backs of their jerseys anyway. Reading past the front would just be a fruitless waste of time.
since stats are numbers they can't be read, eh?
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I've never been particularly fond of Pettitte
even though I’m a Yankees fan.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Really?
Even before he went to Houston? I find this kind of odd.
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
yes, even before he went to Houston
I guess it’s like Pops and Arroyo…Pettitte just rubs me the wrong way. I don’t hate him, and I appreciate his achievements, but I have never liked him.
A big part of it is his hypocrisy. He’s one of those players who goes on and on about his Christian faith. Being born again at age 11 was a bigger thrill than winning the World Series, living according to god’s plan is more important than being a good ballplayer, etc. But apparently, god’s plan for him includes cheating on his wife at every opportunity. Supposedly, that’s why he went to Houston: she demanded that he come home so she could keep an eye on him.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
well that's a pretty big "supposedly"
where are the fact behind this rumor? is he still with his wife? if so, why was she all of a sudden ok with him going back to new york?
eh
I dunno. There’s been a lot less interest in Pettitte since he left.
Maybe the crisis is past. Maybe he drove her nuts, underfoot all the time. Maybe she realized he can cheat just as much at home. Maybe he’s really mended his ways.
I’m not a juror, determining whether he’s guilty or innocent. I’m just a fan. If I want to dislike a player because he beats his wife or likes Dave Mathews or has hips and lips like a girl, I can. Heck, that’s a big part of the reason for being a fan.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Feb 5, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm a boy, standing in front of a boy
and I still can’t figure out why he has so many t’s in his name.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Whoa... really?
Did not realize that… hm
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
read Ball Four yet?
no surprise that ballplayers act immaturely in relationships. that’s why i respect bronson arroyo for being a single man with a game plan!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
by obc2 on Feb 5, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
great book
should be required RR reading
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
check out Foul Ball
Bouton wrote a book a few years ago about bringing minor league ball back to Wahconah Park. Very entertaining.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
my Dad told me about it
but he told me about it after I entered my I hated to read period, so at this point it’s probably a lost cause
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
that's the trouble with books
you don’t know what’s in ’em until its too late.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
you'll need shitter material for Mexico
pick up the paperback. much easier to read in a cramped toilet than hardcover.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I have all my paperwork to get my passport
my bride, on the other hand, needs to get a replacement birth certificate
i’ll keep ya in the loop, as well as the status of her work project which is supposed to deploy end of June
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
just had to order the birth certificates for chan and cameron
just took a week to get them. hopefully we’ll be getting the passports ordered next weekend.
i don't think your wife can be POTUS.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
you're right, she's younger than 35
aside from that, IDGI
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
no birth certificate
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
replacements don't count!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
that's ok
she’s Blonde and Polish
she’s the last person we want running this country
you’re welcome
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 7, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
they can't even fly a fucking airplane
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
Beaver Shooting!
This made me think of Ball Four when I read it. Pretty hilarious.
Watch it, ass blood.
by -ManBearPig on Feb 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it's not so much the sleeping around that bugs me
I would guess most players do it. That’s kind of the point of being a rich baseball player, right?
But if you’re going to do that…don’t be preaching about your devotion to god and family.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
The sleeping around bugs me.
The preaching is just kind of an added douchery.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
is the sleeping around "alleged" or "supposed" or "fact"?
throwing rocks/glass houses bugs me.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
yeah, we still haven't gotten any confirmation of Andy putting his little Pettitte where it doesn't belong
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
we all know that if any of us were in Bronson Arroyo's shows
the combination of rich, athletic, good looking, we would safe our self for marriage.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
Well, when Pettitte got to pitch in the NL Central
and face pitchers, he had 7.4 K/9 and 3.01 K/BB, which is significantly better than Arroyo’s 6.2 and 2.35.
But I’m sure Arroyo would be fine pitching in the AL East. It’s not like he has trouble against the Yankees (5.45 ERA), Blue Jays (6.38), or Orioles (5.57)….
Ever wonder why Bronson was relegated to relief duties in Boston? Pettitte was a much better pitcher than BA.
Not sure what you are talking about
Arroyo made 61 starts in his final 2 years in Boston. How was he relegated to relief duties?
And yes he struggled against the Yanks and Orioles while he was in Boston, but his ERA against Toronto was 4.34 while he was in Boston. It has ballooned because of the 2 disastrous starts he’s had there as a Red, which ultimately goes to show what a small sample we’re talking about anyway.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Slyde..
You see this?
As my two-year old daughter says, “That’s crazy, man.”
How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 4, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
but wasn't he relegated to relief duties in 2006?
wasn’t that why he was available to us, because he was behind Becket, Schilling, Wakefield, Lester, Clement, and Wells on the depth chart?
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
Why aren't we talking about Laynce Nix going to the Nationals?
Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix
b/c it's too painful to talk about Mads
I need a hug
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 5, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This says it all HLM2
I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench. - Satchel Paige
McCain was a great politician
a decade plus ago. poor fella.
also, when did the POTUS begin hugging presidential candidates? that type of stuff never happens with the Royal Family!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
I liked McCain until August of 2008
When he picked Palin it all went down hill for me. I really thought that the McCain Obama election would be an honorable election of two men taking the high road. I was pretty wrong.
"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."
-Joey Votto
that's pretty much a spitting image of you hugging me @ Opening Day
you’re the one on the right
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 6, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think all of those people are on the right
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Feb 7, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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