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A closer look at Mat Latos

Reds' GM Walt Jocketty played weekend warrior just before Christmas, dropping barely-24-year-old pitcher Mat Latos in our stockings - and, OK, a very nice slate of prospect in Padres' fans sandals too - with a surprise trade on Saturday. Evaluating the trade has been pretty divisive in the national media, with reactions ranging from this Jim Bowden doozy:

The most lopsided trade I've witnessed in recent memory as the Padres swindle the Reds in the 5-player trade that lands Mat Latos in Cinci

It's worth bearing in mind, aside from the Horseshoe Casino-sized chip he may have on his shoulder from his time in Cincinnati, he later erroneously said hat Boxberger could be a "#3 starter" and Tweeted this bizarre koan:

Padres just Tebowed the Padres

Ken Rosenthal, meanwhile, called the Reds' move "shrewd" and saw the package as commensurate with the talent they acquired. FanGraphs agrees that the trade is mutually-beneficial and a major boost for the Reds in the short term. Here at Red Reporter the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. In the poll, 73% of readers - which may represent as many as tens of distinct human beings- approve of the trade outright.

Latos now has been photoshopped into a Reds' uniform, the new first step in any traded players' path to becoming foot soldiers in their new franchise. There's also a video up on Reds.com with Latos' and Jocketty's reactions to the trade. A press conference hasn't been scheduled yet, but it will likely happen early next week.

Latos is not only pretty well guaranteed to be the Reds' biggest move of the offseason, he will also arguably be the best pitching talent acquired by any team this winter. Latos is set up to be a integral part of the Reds' plans to run the Votto-full, Pujols-free Central for at least a season or two, so is the optimism justified?

Star-divide

As a prospect

Latos was drafted in the 11th round of the 2006 amateur draft, but played a year of ball at Broward Community College in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, before signing with San Diego. He was expected by some to go in the first half of the first round, but his draft stock took a hit in part because of concerns of attitude and coachability. Even the most unorthodox scout of the roughly fifty that witnessed him peg an opposing third base coach in the chest as a high school senior gave him low marks for makeup. After tumbling out of the first round, he may have sunk further do to sign-ability considerations.

Latos was a first round caliber talent who happened to also be a brash 18-year-old kid. He got his first taste of professional ball in the Padres' minor league system in 2007, during his Age 19 season. With a stutter-step from A ball to the Arizona League, Latos' rise was meteoric. His combativeness continued to surface as a professional while he mowed down hitters in the lower minors. It may not have helped him get on an even keel that he missed a good chunk of 2008 with a strained oblique and sore shoulder.

He posted an 11.1 K-rate across Rookie, A- and A+ ball in 2008, en route to a sparkling minor league line: 2.49 ERA, 1.061 WHIP, 2.3 BB/9, 10.3 K/9. If the Padres had maturity concerns about Latos, it didn't keep them from skipping him over AAA and bringing him to the majors for good at age 21

Major league career

Latos made his debut on July 19, 2009. He threw just over 50 innings that year as a 21-year-old, turning in a credible, if mostly forgettable, 1/4 of a season. There would be no shuttling back and forth for Latos. He stuck after 2009 and followed up with what would have been a Rookie of the Year performance, had he not barely missed qualifying based on his 2009 innings. Latos finished 8th in Cy Young voting, with a sub-3.00 ERA, 2.4 walks-per-nine and a mouth-watering 9.2 k-rate.

Latos started the 2011 on the DL, shoulder soreness resurfacing. With Johnny Cueto, Scott Rolen and Aroldis Chapman fighting similar injuries - or at least persistent soreness - it's a little disconcerting to know Latos has a potentially nagging injury in the same region. It seems to have affected him in early 2011, though he was brilliant in August and September, throwing at least 7 innings and 8 Ks per game over his final five starts. I'm guessing that, along with the medical due diligence, the Reds are confident that he's in a rude health based on his strong finish - which included a quality start against the Reds last August.

Scouting

Latos is getting praised roundly right now, at least by the Reds and other trade apologists, for having four quality pitches. He threw five pitches at least 6.4% of the time in 2011, with a fastball that averaged 93 mph and topped out around 96-97. His slider is his most-frequent secondary pitch, which he's thrown about once every four offerings in his major league career.

It's a big stretch to say he has four above-average out pitches, but his fastball and slider are definitely plus. His "stuff" is regarded by scouts as first class and his command has improved to match his minor league line after some initial wildness in 2009. Just 24 this month, there's a lot of room to grow - on and off-the-field - and his other pitches, especially his changeup, may be getting more polish.

Where he fits in the Reds' rotation

Aside from a healthy Cueto, One-t Mat was better in a "sophmore slump" than any current Reds' starter last season. Depending on how Cueto feels/looks in the spring, Latos will probably be the #2 starter when Opening Day rolls around.

Good/bad

In pure talent and upside, Latos doesn't have many peers among established major leaguers. FanGraphs puts it best:

There aren't that many pitchers in the sport who can miss bats with the frequency that Latos has established while also pounding the strike zone with regularity. Guys who can live in the zone and still avoid contact are generally the best pitchers in the game. This is the one skillset you want in a pitcher more than any other.

Any trade detractor is quick to bring up the PETCO effect, which depresses Latos' park-neutral stats. Flyball rate aside, just because a pitcher is a member of the Padres, does not mean they are automatically a mirage of a pitcher-friendly ballpark. Latos' home/away splits help vindicate him.

The biggest concerns are his health (specifically, his shoulder), his flyball rate (above 40% in the majors) and his attitude. On that last one, it's pure speculation to say he'd be a negative in the clubhouse, but I'm not sure what effect 'tude really has on the performance of a player who has already developed. Not only might the change of scenery and Dusty Efffect be beneficial, but the mound presence and confidence in a young pitcher could be a boon to a staff that has seen some control problems and yips in recent years.

MLB career stats

ERA+ K-rate BB-rate FIP xFIP SIERA FB-rate
108 8.65 2.83 3.28 3.51 3.48 41.3%


Comment 360 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Also, tattoos

What are they? A snake and some Hebrew characters?

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Bootsy, you're a superstar right?"
"Twinkle, twinkle, babble."

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 18, 2011 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

the letters

say “Love me or hate me.”

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 18, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Maty Sovereign

http://old.thesixtyone.com/#/s/226S7ccFbYx/

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 18, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

pewp

Maty Sovereign

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 18, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

With those tats and his past

easy to hate.

May he become our carpenter.

/love the trade

by Howie Feltersnatch on Dec 18, 2011 5:04 PM EST reply actions  

Latos doesn't strike me as a little bitch

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 18, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Cueto didn't have great mound presence until last year

it is a work in progress for young pitchers.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 18, 2011 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think Latos knew where Cincinnati was

based on that interview.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 18, 2011 5:29 PM EST reply actions  

On the shoulder issues

From what I’ve read, Latos wore down towards the end of 2010 as San Diego made their surprising run (and then collapse) at the division crown. Latos finished the year with 184 innings – more than 60 than 2009, which was split between the minors and the big league. But the only DL reference I can find for 2010 was in July, when he pulled a side muscle due to an awkward sneeze.

He was diagnosed with shoulder bursitis in ST 2011 and started the year on the DL. His fastball velocity went down a tick – from 94 to 93 – but according to Keith Law, he was back up to the mid-90s by September.

by ken on Dec 18, 2011 5:37 PM EST reply actions  

Nice work compiling this

30 hours later, I’m still just as excited.

I predict he finishes in the top 3 in Cy Young voting at least twice for the Reds.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2011 7:48 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

oh man I hope you are right

that would be stellar

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 18, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take the under

whattya say, a couple of Ray’s pies?

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Dec 19, 2011 1:53 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

OMG, I agree with obc

When is the last time any Reds pitcher finished in the top-3 in Cy Young voting? Answer: 6 times, 1995 (Pete Schourek?). The at least twice part is gonna be the kicker!

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

If we're both still alive, and commenting on this site in 4 years,

and Latos hasn’t fulfilled this prediction, I’ll happily buy you 2 pizzas.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I am happy for the new Latos thread

1600 comments….about baseball, on RR. WTF

This dude is a badass and he moves to a team with a much better D, particularly in the infield.

The Reds need two more pieces to be absolutely dominent: protection for Votto at #4, and a closer. If he can fill those roles internally, he might be a magician.

If Walt could still make trades for Bailey and Quentin, he might be a genius.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 18, 2011 9:17 PM EST reply actions  

about baseball might be pushing it

Though there’s more baseball than usual mixed in with the food, TV, and sex comments.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 18, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Much better D?

I don’t think so. Padres have finished 2nd in the NL in defensive efficiency (DER) each of the last 2 years (according to BBRef). They were just behind the Reds last year (.705 to .704). The Reds may have a better defense, but they didn’t turn anymore balls into outs than the Padres did.

Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Dec 19, 2011 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

But at least he doesn't face a defensive decline

With a similar defense behind him, he’s gotten the benefit of a much, much better offense. That should really help him, provided his pitching doesn’t suddenly take a nosedive.

"This is the St. Louis Cardinals we're talking about. They suck. Screw them. With a shovel. The sharp metal end. And then set them on fire." - crolfer

by rorschach1979 on Dec 19, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Help his W-L record, I guess

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I was looking at the Fangraphs stats

UZR/150 has us 5.9 vs 2.2

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 19, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

For a whole team, that's pretty minimal

And UZR/150 for a whole team is pretty worthless, because a sub who manages +2 in a few innings will have a ridiculous UZR/150 and will skew the overall numbers.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Learned something

but I still think a BP, Votto, HEALTHY Rolen, and Cozart is a dominant infield D

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 19, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

no question

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 20, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Brewers had the high bid

for Norichika Aoki.

I wonder if this means they have a spare OFer to shop.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 18, 2011 9:28 PM EST reply actions  

they're still insisting

that Braun will avoid suspension.

But it doesn’t look good.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 18, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

they bid $2.5 million

And now they’re going to have him work out in Arizona before deciding whether to sign him.

FTH? They paid 2.5 million, and they aren’t sure they want to sign him?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the posting fee is refundable if the player does not sign.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm kinda surprised

there haven’t been teams making bids just to block other teams.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Bob shoulda done that

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I believe the rule is the team has to negotiate "in good faith"

And that Selig can eliminate the winning bid if he finds a lack of good faith. So if the Reds bid $70M on Darvish but then wildly low-ball him on the contract, the team with the second highest bid would get to negotiate.

What constitutes a “good faith” offer? I have no idea. There were whispers that Oakland low-balled Hisashi Iwakuma last year to keep him away from Texas, but the league obviously never took any action.

by ken on Dec 19, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Bowden is surprisingly uninformed, given his current and former jobs

I know we like to make fun of the guy, but JHC, how can a guy who makes his living covering baseball (and was a friggin GM for many years) be so ignorant?

If I knew so little about my job my ass would be fired – hell, I wouldn’t have my job in the first place. How can someone like that remain employed? It’s not his winning personality.

And fentanyl ain't that like super-morphine for elephants and soldiers with their head blown off

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Dec 18, 2011 10:07 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

by kissing owner's asses

That’s the way Hal described him

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 18, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm very willing to kiss anyone's ass

if it gets me a six-figure salary. Where do I sign up?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Playbook for making six figures kissing ass

1. Find a corporate job you can bullshit your way into getting
2. Apply for the that job’s boss at a competitor after 1-2 years
3. Repeat

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I understand #2

So, #3 is also a lovely riddle.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

If you are a Widget Analyst

After 1-2 years apply for Senior Widget analyst at a competitor.
Apply for Manger Widget Analysis at another company in 2 years having direct reports
Apply for Director Widget Analysis + other stuff a few years after that.

If a job exists in a corporation the same type job exists at a competitor.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 19, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think this is an effective gameplan

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Dec 19, 2011 1:54 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

It's an extremely effective gameplan you just have to be willing to move all over the country

And need to be effective in an interview and completely full of shit. I know a lot of complete idiots that have become VPs this way.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 19, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

#sickburn on the MLB Trade Rumors poll

73% saying the Padres won.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 18, 2011 11:39 PM EST reply actions  

You could if you wanted to

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Dec 19, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It's surprising that it's 50% off.

You’d think those would just fly right off the shelves. (Bad pun not intended, just too lazy to rewrite it.)

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Dec 19, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Chalk it up to the time difference.

Poll came out when Cinci was asleep and SD was still awake.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 19, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions  

doesn't matter

if both benefit, that’s good.

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 19, 2011 7:25 AM EST up reply actions  

#sickburn on the MLB Trade Rumors poll 73% saying the Padres won.

We won’t know until it all plays out on the field over the next couple of seasons.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Dec 18, 2011 11:50 PM EST reply actions  

ok Johnu1

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 18, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

No need to get nasty...

That’s like me calling you Justin…or Neckbeard…or Reynard…
here look at this for a while …you’ll feel better:
Surfer Girl Malia Jones

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Dec 18, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Mads, my man, you need to meet my wife.

That interaction would be fun to watch. Ask ’ol Jerms.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Dec 19, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Mads

I’m not sure I ever wanna see your GIS search history

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 19, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

comments there are fascinating

Someone talking about Volquez being a CYA contender in Petco? Seriously?

Has no one been paying attention for the last couple of years?

And the degree to which Latos is treated as a flash in the pan is unreal — ignoring minor league numbers, ignoring home/road splits, and ignoring peripherals…

I’ll go on the record saying that Latos either gets hurt, or is a top 10 NL pitcher the next 4 years, while no more than one of the prospects we gave up is more than just a bit above average.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 19, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

fox and the grapes

they lost a stud and they prefer to believe he is Francis the talking mule and not Secretariat

by Red_Poodle on Dec 19, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

They are all good (except Volquez)

but they aren’t all guaranteed to be all-stars, like everyone is pretending.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Grandal is the one with the highest upside (in overall terms offense+defense)

but I think the book is out on him. Alonso I’ve been particularly high on and still think he ends up a good player, but the sheen’s wore off of him for me. If he had more power he would make up better for his defensive deficiencies. But yeah, that opinion came pretty easily since the trade went down.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, Alonso is going to be a good hitter

But the offensive bar is so high for 1B, it’s hard to get too worked up about losing a guy who will probably be an .840-860 OPS guy at best.

Those guys can be found in free agency without too much difficulty.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahem

/GomesNixLewisHeiseySappeltHermida’d

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 19, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh. Those are all OFers

There seems to always be a good hitter available who can be stashed at 1B for a year or 2.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Grandal is going to be soundly above average

But, I think Latos will win a Cy Young in the next few years as well

by DerekH91 on Dec 19, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

lets not get too carried away

he has the potential to be very, very good for us. A CYA is a bold prediction (though I sure do hope you’re right)

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, Cy Young contender might have been a better way to put that

I still think he will, but that’s just the hopeless optimist in me

by DerekH91 on Dec 19, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll be thrilled to admit I was wrong, in this case!

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Dimensions have little to do with a pitcher's ability to throw strikes.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

RE: Volquez

I seem to be one of the few who expected him to bounce back this season. I thought the Reds expectaions for him last season were unrealistic. His command was only OK even at the best of time so I thought he might need a little longer to all the way back. Contending for the CYA is still a stretch, but I can see him pitching like a solid 3 and Petco making him look like a 2.

My initial reaction to the trade was “I like it about as much as I can without having to say that I love it” mostly because of this feeling about EV. Not that upset about giving up the prospects even though I like all of them. The future has to become the present at some point and 4 good to possibly very good players for a young, cost controlled stud who still has some room to get better seems about right to me.

by matchu522 on Dec 19, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Volquez had 0 setbacks after his surgery

his arm was completely sound last year, and he had been pitching in professional games since June of 2010. If 4 months of pitching isn’t enough to find your command (and he never found it last year) then you probably have issues.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Volquez might still bounce back

The rule of thumb is that it takes a pitcher at least 18 months to recover from TJ surgery. He had his surgery in August 2009, so it’s been more than 18 months. But every player is different. Command is the last thing to come back.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

he was our ace

He had something, once.

Arredondo’s surgery was only a few months after Volquez’s, and we’re still hoping he’ll bounce back.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

but he was always wild. Even in his ace season, he walked 4.3/9. So even if he gets his old command back, he’s still pretty wild.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Arredondo didn't pitch at all in 2010, Volquez did

Better than 18 months, they say it usually takes a pitcher about 3 months of pitching to come back. Arredondo got better as last season went on, Volquez really didn’t improve much.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

he had a very good half season

his first time around in a new league. that’s it.

also, he very well may have been on steroids at that time

by 'tHan on Dec 19, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

do steroids help pitchers throw strikes?

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

absolutely

ask Clemens

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 19, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe

I certainly wouldn’t argue that they help you throw with increased accuracy, with a caveat, but they might make you strong enough to throw through the bat, in effect.

*caveat: It might let you throw at that higher mph without having to over throw, which might be where the lack of accuracy emerges for some

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 20, 2011 6:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but I took a look at the comments.

A LOT of people are clamoring for a “win/win” option in the poll, which I think is pretty close to consensus around here, too.

by the finest muffins on Dec 19, 2011 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

righto

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Brian Giesenschlag just used the term "The Votto Window"

in his commentary on the Latos trade this morning on Fox19. Isn’t “The Votto Window” an RR registered trade mark?

I don't know why my kids call me that. I think I'm a pretty nice mom.

by darthmom on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 AM EST reply actions  

it would have been

but we got distracted with measuring boobs and arguing about Mexican food, and forgot to actually register it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

ADD'd

I don't know why my kids call me that. I think I'm a pretty nice mom.

by darthmom on Dec 19, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

AetffDD'd

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Dec 19, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha!

Question: do all the ADDers come to this site or do you become ADD because of this site?

I don't know why my kids call me that. I think I'm a pretty nice mom.

by darthmom on Dec 19, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

OOOO look at the funny kitten!

I’m sorry, what was your question?

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

never thought i'd agree with Bowden :-)

until now

The most lopsided trade I’ve witnessed in recent memory as the Padres swindle the Reds in the 5-player trade that lands Mat Latos in Cinci

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 10:47 AM EST reply actions  

Wait

Are you calling Bowden the troll, or ephram?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think so

It’d be totally cool (though not particularly noteworthy) to call Bowden a troll, but to call someone who doesn’t post regularly a troll simply because you disagree with them is poor form. Frankly, I expected more from a varsity letterman such as yourself.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

You are right, my apologies.

I can’t blame the messenger. I dislike Bowden, and dislike what he said, which seemed to me his malice, not any sort of baseball expertise.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

I love that Jim Bowden is a part of the national baseball conversation, in that if there were show called “The Baseball Soup”, his twitter feed would be it’s Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, it's a popular mode of commentary in today's media.

If you don’t have anything smart to say, then say the most inflammatory, hyperbolic thing you can think of. It’s not “The Reds filled a need, but overpaid.” It’s “THIS IS THE WORST TRADE OF ALL TIME.” Jim Bowden is a jerk in most aspects of his life that we have witnessed, and it’s worse because no one else seems to notice (what Joe Posnanski calls a “Marilyn Munster.”)

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I think people notice

ESPN is a complicated beast. They’re willing to hire a Bowden type to get page hits, but they also try to keep a respectable stable of writers on staff as well.

by ken on Dec 19, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

see: Skip Bayless

but substitute page views for ratings.

side note, did you know Skip Bayless is celebrity chef Rick Bayless’ brother?

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

that's pretty amusing.

Rick is a pretty self-effacing dude for a celebrity chef. Skip…isn’t.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

So they can have those respectable writers write about He-Man!

/GrantlandDissOutOfFuckingNowhere

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

This is great!!

I had never seen this image before. Rec to you!

"This is the St. Louis Cardinals we're talking about. They suck. Screw them. With a shovel. The sharp metal end. And then set them on fire." - crolfer

by rorschach1979 on Dec 19, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

that's why i stopped posting

i joined cincyjungle and redreporter about the same time, but a lot of the redreporter folks were just vulgar and confrontational. and i became a non-regular poster. whereas cincyjungle has been very welcoming & a good group.

i suppose these sorts of ‘friendly’ comments from folks here will keep me away, and if this is the crowd that runs around redreporter, then it’s probably best i stay away.

go reds…

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It would probably help if you didn't come in here, and then post things that will file up the RR community.

I mean using that ridiculous Jim Bowden quote really doesn’t help anything. There aren’t many people in the baseball world that respect his opinion. We gave up a lot of talent, but it was a lot of blocked talent. It also helps that we received a top flight young pitcher in return.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

i hate nothing more than when I am filed.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't care for L.P. as much as the next Reds fan

But in this case i think they overpaid, and in that sense side with Bowden’s comment. No the trade wasn’t as bad as when we gave away F Robinson or traded for Dave Martinez or let T Hoffman get away, etc.. but it wasn’t a “slam dunk” of a trade either.

I’ll admit i follow the minors a lot more closely than the majors, as i really try to follow the prospects (and am really looking for Juan Francisco to become our regular 3B) so i don’t know a lot about Latos.

But to see them give up on a catcher who can hit similarly to Mesoraco and with better defense, and our Sean Casey clone in Yonder Alonso, and our best minor league pitcher who hasn’t been to the majors yet….for 1 guy who has battled injuries and apparently has a terrible attitude….i’m just not feeling it.

At least they kept the younger prospects like Neftali, Billy & Yorman.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

You're entitled to your opinion...

But I think a lot of the backlash over the trade is simply because us Reds fans have been conditioned to overvalue our minor leaguers as a result of poor performance at the major league level for so many years. At some point, we need future talent to become current talent. We’re not used to that.

I also wouldn’t say that anyone gave up on Grandal. It takes talent to make a big trade. I think all of us are reasonably high on Grandal, and I think we all wish him well in SD. Likewise, I’m not sure having a Sean Casey clone (which I think is a good way to describe Alonso) is a good thing. Casey was good, but not great. To really win, you need some great talent. It doesn’t have to be at first base, but that’s where the Reds great talent is right now. If that’s all Alonso was going to be, and he was going to occupy a blocked roster spot for two years to find out, no thanks. In the end, we needed to take a chance. This is a good chance to take, better than getting the other semi-available starters, and much better than standing pat.

And as you point out, the young prospects are still in tact for reloading after the two-year Votto window closes.

Trying to pull off "having no money and talking to no one" as well as the Reds have.

by badenjr on Dec 19, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree you got to give something to get something

But i think there is a difference between that and just giving a lot away for the sake of doing something.

I agree Casey wasn’t a stud player, but was more of a complimentary type of player. The problem was there was nobody better than him, so we was our defacto star even though he would been better suited as a Pippen to a Jordan.

I think the trade makes more sense if they can keep Votto…unless they plan to move Francisco or Soto to 1B eventually.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

But isn't the whole point of the trade to win now?

The Reds are no longer in a mode where they have to play for the future. The future is now. They’ve stumbled upon a star. Votto’s the guy. They’ve got to try to win now because in two years he’s likely to be too expensive. When two years pass, we’ll likely need a new star. This is the Red’s chance. You can’t play for 2014 when 2012 and 2013 are staring you in the face.

Trying to pull off "having no money and talking to no one" as well as the Reds have.

by badenjr on Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think people forget....

how good Sean Casey was before the shoulder injury sapped his power.

by matchu522 on Dec 19, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

a lot of the scouting reports that i'd read

seem to describe Grandal as a catcher who can hit, whereas Devin is more a hitter who can play catcher.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Opinions seem to vary on this.

Both are seen as being solid enough defensively to stick at catcher and solid enough offensively to provide value. It’s rare to find a catcher who can do both well. There’s a decent chance that they both make some All-Star games down the road, and we’ll have to wait and see to determine who’s really the best.

Trying to pull off "having no money and talking to no one" as well as the Reds have.

by badenjr on Dec 19, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

When drafted Grandal was suppose to have better catching tools than Mez.

But, after this season a lot of scouts dropped that idea.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope.

Meso has better receiving skills and a smoother throwing motion. Grandal might have a stronger arm but his pop times are much slower.

And FWIW, Reds pitchers were complimenting Meso on how he called a game when he was up in September.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Grandal might be better than Mez

But most people here don’t agree. Especially about the better defense thing.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I know tl;dr!

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

1. I’m hoping the 2010 to 2011 regression is only a hiccup.

2. After the trade, i’m hoping Mez > Yasmani. My thinking is the opposite. Hopefully i’ll be proven wrong.

3. Agreed. Both have good doubles power, but neither was ever the HR guy that fans hoped for.

4. I’m not sold on Stephenson. But time will tell. I’m still hopeful DoJo can be a future star reliever.

Bowden is an idiot. – Amen to that!

5. From what i’ve read the attitude thing has followed him from high school to the pros. But hopefully it goes away with maturity.

6. I would have preferred to have dumped our overrated AAA level talent like Frazier or Cozart than to keep them but lose Grandal and/or Alonso.

But now that the trade is done…i’m hoping i’m wrong. I’m not a GM for a reason!!!

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know that the Pads would have taken Cozart or Frazier.

And honestly, I think Cozart is more valuable to us (right now) than Grandal would have been. It’s a win-now type of trade.

by crolfer on Dec 19, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

If you trade Cozart, who’s our shortstop? Janish? Valaika? The return of Renteria?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus Cozart's a top ten prospect too,

he just has the apparent disadvantage of having played in the major leagues. That’s the thing about prospects—they have a mythical status because they’ve never been in the big leagues. Once they get a cup of coffee and fans see they aren’t superhuman, people are suddenly willing to give them away (see Sappelt, David). But very few MLB players, including the regulars, weren’t top prospects at some point. Corey Patterson was the third overall pick in his draft, for pete’s sake.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Mez and Alonso played in the big leagues, too

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

To clarify, I am saying that

prospects seem invincible to most fans because they are unexposed. But if the majority of MLB average Joes were once top prospects, clearly it is overly optimistic to think that a handful of top prospects will all be unreplaceable all-stars.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

sure, but

I don’t think Cozart ever had the halo Grandal and Alonso had. Cozart wasn’t a first rounder. Some prospects are on the list for their potential, some are on the list because they’re already close to the big leagues. I don’t think there’s any way the Pads accept Cozart instead of Grandal or Alonso, even if we could spare him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

this

Grandal has HOF potential, Alonso has All Star potential, Boxberger has MLB closer potential, Cozart has Theriot with better defense potential.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you really think

Grandal has Hall of Fame potential? I think that’s a gross exaggeration. Nobody has hall of fame potential when they are a prospect, that’s something Scott Boras would say. With the nearly infinitesimal percentage of major leaguers who make the hall of fame, and the number of wild cards that are in that bunch, you literally cannot say someone has HOF potential. The only prospect the Reds have seen turn into a HOF-level player is Votto, and would anyone have said he would be in the HOF when he was in the minor leagues?

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh, I think every few years or maybe every decade or so

there is a prospect that you can legitimately say has HOF potential. But it’s just a matter of semantics really.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

I could see people saying that about Stausburg or Harper (HOF potential)….but not Grandal.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's an equally fair way of saying it.

But that means no one has hall of fame potential (i.e. if everyone is great, no one is great). You could say someone has the tools to suggest that their ceiling is as high as anyone can estimate. That might be what someone would say about Strasburg. But I think those statements always have to be qualified.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

What I'm trying to say is

that such estimations of value are by definition hyperbolic, and therefore basically meaningless. Every team that has ever drafted first thinks they are getting the best player in that draft class, and that the sky is the limit. But certainly that is not true, history has shown us it isn’t true. A very tiny percentage of players get into the HOF. So every player in the history of baseball has the potential to make it into the hall of fame. But that does not make that a meaningful statement, it makes it lack meaning.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

there was some hyperbole and some, if Grandal reaches his absolute highest ceiling, which could but isn’t likely to happen.

Which is why trading prospects for established players when you have pieces to go around them is a good idea.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he has Hall of Fame potential

The same way going into 2010 Chapman, Volquez, Bailey, and Cueto all had ace potential.

Hall of Fame potential doesn’t mean I think he will go to the Hall of Fame.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

HOF potential Is steeper than I would go

I’m more skeptical of Grandal than most, I wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up a .250ish hitter in the bigs. Still good for the position if he can maintain the power. But that’s the thing about this trade, boxberger and Grandal could be really good or flame out. Latos was plenty worth the deal. Risky sure, but a pitcher of his caliber/potential is worth the risk in this case, given the team needs.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 7:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

grandal could become Ted Simmons

Who should merit HOF consideration, but doesn’t

More likely he will be a SH Eddie Taubensee with a better glove

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Dec 19, 2011 7:11 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I expect Grandal to be a solid MLB starter

With a few all-star games under his belt eventually. Off the bench, of course, because he won’t be starting over Mes.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I could see him making no allstar games

thats probably more the camp I’m in, but I recognize I know nothing. His K rate is higher than I would like which is the main reason I’m skeptical, and his BA this year was somewhat BABIP driven. But, you’re title sums up how I feel about him perfectly, I expect him to end up a solid player.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

so if Grandal has HOF potential..

then what do you think of Mesoraco?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 19, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

dunno about that

Alonso was the headliner in this trade, and Mez is apparently untouchable.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, I'm just pointing out that many prospects who haven't yet played at the major league level yet are given extremely generous evaluations by most fans.

Alonso was a different story, he was the Reds’ major trade chip and most people knew they would have to give him up for something else. A lot of the debate has revolved around Grandal and Boxberger, who are apparently the next Varitek and Trevor Hoffman. It could happen, it just usually doesn’t.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with that

I guess it’s a variant of “second string quarterback syndrome.” The farther away from the big leagues a prospect is, the better he looks.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd love me some Sappelt starting in LF if the Reds would give him a chance

never been a Cozart fan – good defense, but a career 0.260 hitter in the minors. i think his 0.324 average for the Reds was a 1-year abberration.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

one year?

It was an 11-game aberration.

Cozart doesn’t have to hit a lot, though. He’s a SS, they’re not expected to have big bats.

I’m a little concerned about his patience at the plate – that was always the knock on him in the minors – but it’s not like there are any better alternatives.

As for Sap…I like him, but like others have said, he’s so tiny. Maybe if he were an infielder…but you don’t see OFers that small in the big leagues.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

1-year as in the 1 year that he played in the majors as in 2011…not 1-year as in 1 full year worth of games. i think a lot of people are ready to annoint Cozart the starting SS because he hit 0.324 last year. But i’d be surprised if he hits above 0.280 next year.

If they don’t care about hitting, they can just use Janish at SS.

Personally i don’t care how short Sappelt is. He’s probably a better leadoff hitter than Stubbs. Doesn’t have the elite speed, but has good speed. Gets on base much more often and actually makes contact.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

you gotta be kidding

I think people would be thrilled if Cozart hit .280. I don’t think it’s likely. He didn’t hit .280 in the minors.

The Reds said they’d be happy if Janish could hit .260. He couldn’t.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take .250 from Cozart to be honest

so long as he hits for some power in addition to that, thats really the key to his offensive game.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

as long as his OBP is .315 or higher

I think I’ll be fine

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 20, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with ya that I think Grandal will be better than Mesoraco

if we dump Frazier or Cozart, who plays SS and who do we have for a young UT, and or a guy to replace BP, or a guy to trot out to LF since we don’t have any certainly out there?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 19, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Boxberger is a reliever prospect

that’s crying over spilled milk

I will miss Grandal
Alonso had no place to play as I’m convinced The Dusty would have fucked up that LF situation like a soup sandwich

And Volquez? Good fucking riddance

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 19, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a good point.

We are talking (myself included) about missing Alonso in LF this season, but it’s a bit of a stretch to assume Dusty would’ve even played him there with any regularity.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

there's a disturbance in The Force

you agreeing with me, me agreeing with you a lot lately..

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 20, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's be nice if we're not being nice

It doesn’t require granting Bowden any credibility.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Bootsy, you're a superstar right?"
"Twinkle, twinkle, babble."

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 19, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

x

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

it might help if you gave your reasoning as to why you didn't like it

I think just posting a Bowden tweet with no explanation is asking for vitriol (whether warranted or not).

if you like talking baseball (sometimes), give us another shot, but if you have a thin skin, RR probably isn’t for you.

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, this was what I was responding to.

And I certainly didn’t mean for any interested parties to feel unwelcome. But if someone posts a provocative comment with no context and no commentary, then I’m admittedly suspicious of the motivation. And while I don’t expect anyone to read the 2500 comments already written on this subject, the fact that we have discussed that issue many times over made me wonder what the motivation was. But I see that it was innocent, and didn’t mean to be “confrontational.”

by Cuetotally Amazing on Dec 19, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i wasn't trying to spam the issue, just quipping that for once in my life i actually agreed with good old LP

i posted a couple lines above why i’m more on the side of LP than not on the trade.

but as what’s done is done, i sure hope i’m proven wrong!

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't blame the man for his reaction there

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Dec 19, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

x

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

there's also a bit of rookie hazing around here sometimes

Most get it in some capacity. Stick around, the community is mostly harmless.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 7:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree that while your comment was harmless...

…it looked, smelled, and tasted like you were trolling, and I can’t blame CA for that.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

How many times do I have to tell you?

STOP LICKING THE NEW PEOPLE!

"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK

by ZJiff30 on Dec 20, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Mmmmmm...newbs!

Salty!

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I see you got there after I did

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Dec 21, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Naw, didn't taste like you. It was muskier.

Perhaps a Haitian. Or FVA.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point being made on twitter about the "overpay"

If CoCo doesn’t re-sign, the Reds will have 3 picks in the top 50 of this years draft, including 14, 45, and another. That’s a nice way to quickly replenish a system.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 11:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

all things considered, I think Walt should go after a different closer

just to get that pick. I’m sure someone could be had for near Cordero’s price who would provide similar (or, dare I say, MORE) value

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The reliever market is pretty thin

at least, for guys better than Coco. I’m all about signing Harden, but I think the Reds are looking for an established closer. I think the chances are pretty high that Coco comes back.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not against that, if they don't overpay

I would like for Dusty to realize Coco is getting old, and not use him every single time the Reds have a lead of 3 runs or less in the 9th. I hope they let Ondrusek or Masset get a few more save opportunities so Coco rarely throws 3 or 4 days in a row.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

also: break in a new closer

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the reliever market was absolutely stocked?

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

It was

and then Papelbon signed, Bell signed, and Frank Francisco signed. So did Joe Nathan. And Octavio Dotel.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Brad Lidge is still kind of the elephant in this proverbial room, right?

Isn’t he the kind of guy that you could risk taking a chance on, keep on a short leash, and plug someone else in if things go awry?

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather get Coco. I think they'll probably sign for comparable prices.

Lidge is too injury-prone and walks way too many. I think what I want is to re-sign Coco for something like 2/$10 mil and get Rich Harden for $1 mil or so. Then get a few LOOGYs on minor league deals and such.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

We get a draft pick if we don't get Coco

And Lidge will be cheaper, which gives us more money to address LF. I’m talking myself into this idea something fucking fierce.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

With his injury problems and zero takers so far?

I’d be surprised if he gets that much, especially with the saturated “good enough to be closers” market

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I think Lidge is a more risky signing than Harden

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 20, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, me too

I just don’t see him coming that cheap. He made Coco money last year and I think has a much more positive-looking track record than Coco does, performance-wise.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Coco's coming off a very fine year as a closer, even if the peripherals aren't as pretty

Lidge pitched 19 innings last year and wasn’t completely healthy in 2010. ‘creds’ guess sounds about right.

by ken on Dec 20, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

why not, right?

if it’s low money, why not toss Lidge a bone?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 20, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Who is this 'creds' of which you speak

He sounds hypothetical.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm thinking seriously of pulling a "chandrathan"

and shortening my handle to ‘Creds. Or, since I’m working on my doctorate, being really pretentious and going with Dr. Creds.

I don’t know.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

wait wait wait

You want Coco because he doesn’t walk so many?

I’m not looking it up, because tonight I’m playing the anti-sabr guy, but HELLO!! I must have personally watched him put 300 guys on base last year.

Standard Coco: single, walk, K, sacrifice, full-count-lots-of-fouls-K.

Sign Lidge, take the picks, and then use Arredondo when Lidge sucks or is broken.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 20, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Coco walked 2.8/9 last season

Lidge 6.1. 4.7 the year before. Their career walk rates are the same, though. I shoulda seen that.

So yeah, I guess if Lidge is cheaper, and I’m still not sure he would be, I’d go with him. He can still rack up the strikeouts.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 20, 2011 7:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Depending on the price (which is probably too high),

I’d love to see Walt trade a young prospect (like, A ball guy) for Andrew Bailey.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Finally, a use for Chase Weems!

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Boom.

Do it, Walt.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a good point...

What is the value of a supplemental pick? (That’s what we get for CoCo signing elsewhere, right?) If we sign CoCo for $12 million for 2 years, but also give up a pick worth a million or two in doing so, that’s a lot to invest in a reliever. I’d try for $9 million for 2 years and not go above $10 million. I’d bet we could find an internal option that could produce 1.5-2 WAR closing out games. CoCo isn’t going to five us that much more.

Trying to pull off "having no money and talking to no one" as well as the Reds have.

by badenjr on Dec 19, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well,

Boxberger was a supplemental pick.

So was Billy Hamilton.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Billy Hamilton was a second rounder.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 19, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops. You are correct.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

So was Votto!

And Wood!

Good geeze, the Reds really have drafted well for a long stretch now.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 20, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I think my Latos high is finally evening out

and I’m moving on to try and find my next fix. Now I’m all up ons the idea of getting Rich Harden for the bullpen. He signed last year for $1.5 mil, so he likely wouldn’t take more than that. He’s been a starter his whole career and can’t stay healthy, but when he does get to the mound he is a strikeout machine that doesn’t walk anyone. He is precisely the kind of pitcher you take a flier on as a bullpen reclamation project. For a million bucks or so, he could potentially be the signing of the year.

But that’s pretty much the case every year, and he can never stay healthy.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 11:03 AM EST reply actions  

My next obsession is an OF bat

Since I don’t trust Heisey to start everyday and I don’t want Sappelt as the 4th OF.

But I have no idea who I want.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 11:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'd be down with that,

But i bet he’ll be expensive

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

is he that much better than Heisey, though?

if at all? I know he’s got great D, but Heisey’s D plays well in left.

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with ya.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm nervous about heisey in 600 PAs.

he reminds me of our pre-2011 Janish love too much

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I really don’t see him being more than a solid 4th outfielder. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a very solid 4th man. Good power, great defense, some speed, but I think as a starter he’d just get exposed a little too much. Luckily, I think the Reds probably think the same thing and might go after another guy in the outfield. And honestly, I think they might go after a lefty- otherwise, if Sappelt is the 5th OF, we’ve only got one LH OF in Bruce. I’d kind of expect to see a platoon where Heisey is the RH side of a platoon with… say… Seth Smith?

by crolfer on Dec 19, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And how would that lineup look potentially? Something like...

® Phillips
® Rolen
(L) Votto
(L) Bruce
® Stubbs
(L) Left Field
® Mesoraco
® Cozart

or something of that ilk.

by crolfer on Dec 19, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather yank Rolen out of there and insert Juan Francisco

i’d rather throw a big time RBI producer who can flat out drive the ball behind Votto than the DL veteran who plays some 3B on occasion.

by ephram on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

you should see END take infield practice

You’d change your mind

Buy RED: My Uncensored Life in Rock by Sammy Hagar, today

by obc2 on Dec 19, 2011 7:13 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

He's a got a really long swing.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

this is accurate

certainly not compact

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 20, 2011 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

/overblown'd

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

He has limited range, but played decent D last year.

He has the strongest infield arm in our organization. I think he might be an average or close-to-average defender.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure you aren't misremembering

I think he did pretty good in the period at the end of last season. His positioning was terrible before and I think his reaction time was a couple bottles deep, but that seems to have improved at least some.

I remember specifically one play he made that was so good that folks were likening it to Brooks Robinson in the 71 world series.

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 21, 2011 6:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Showing good range there.

And still improving, I’d say.

You know how Rolen took Alonso aside last year to teach him 3B? If Rolen was a real leader, he’d learn Spanish and mentor END daily.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Problem is

Heisey has a reverse platoon split. He crushes righties but can’t hit lefties worth a lick.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear this all the time

Did he show this in the minors? If it’s based on his big league abs I’m skeptical that it is something set in stone about him.

by pack_fan on Dec 19, 2011 7:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

as I recall

his minor league splits were more even.

Could be a fluke, but it could be that scouting in the big leagues has found a hole in his swing. That happened with Andy Phillips. He mashed lefties in the minors, but in the big leagues, his splits reversed. He couldn’t hit the high and away pitch from a lefthander, and they took advantage.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

well done

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat

by -ManBearPig on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Perfectly executed

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

he will hit 80 home runs if he gets 850 PA's.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm also nervous about Heisey getting 600 PAs

But I would not be unhappy if that were plan A going into the season. Personally I love Heisey and think he has earned some kind of shot. I think he could basically match Corey Hart production (in a slightly different shape). OTOH, I completely understand why people are hesitant to have him penciled in as the starter.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Todd

Frazier.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 19, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

It makes me happy that you and I agree on this.

It’s healing the catcher wounds!

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

o_O

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I wonder if the door just opened a little bit for Frazier, especially given Heisey's reverse platoon splits to date

Or maybe END gets the Alonso treatment and is shoved in LF for a few games. We know ENDs going to be on the big league roster and that Dusty doesn’t want him to rust on the bench. If Rolen doesn’t have any major health issues early on, I can see a revolving door in LF of END/Heisey/Sappelt.

by ken on Dec 19, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm quietly hoping Frazier gets a real shot

I don’t really think his offense will play all that well in LF, but neither will anyone else’s that we currently have.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2011 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That's probably right

Frazier has the power for a corner, I think, if not the contact skills. He also gives the team some flexibility in that you can start him in LF and then move him to the IF once you’ve used a PH.

by ken on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

END did play LF a little in the minors

He was even in RF for one game.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

the Reds are an injury away from Sappelt playing everyday.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on all this, except Beltran is the player I'd want...

I like the idea of Heisey as the 4th OF and bench bat/LIDR. I think he really thrives in that role.

I’d get a free agent LF. Beltran!!!

I’d flip Sappelt for a decent bullpen arm and throw in other prospects if necessary. I’d try for an 8th inning guy and move Masset to closer.

I’d let Frazier be the 5th OF/super-utility man. He’d be primary backup at SS too. Rolen is going to be the millstone around our necks this year. We’ll have to have Francisco on the 25-man to give him sufficient time off. We have to carry an extra 3B as a result, when a well constructed roster would have a defensive-minded IF who is able to play a passable SS in that spot. Something just doesn’t fit, and the inability to count on Rolen to be on the field every day is it.

Trying to pull off "having no money and talking to no one" as well as the Reds have.

by badenjr on Dec 19, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

one way or another

The roster issues will be better next year.

Cozart will prove himself, or not; either way, there will be no need for a veteran back up SS.

Cairo will be gone (probably), and so will Rolen.

All that should add a lot of flexibility to the roster. Assuming Walt doesn’t sign any more aging vets to multi-year contracts, anyway.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

or extend Rolen again...

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 19, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

+1 - I want someone that hits #4

Quentin

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Dec 19, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

....and, I posted before reading.

Sorry ’bout that.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 20, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

How about Beltran?

Probably going to be expensive and want 3 years, which I’m not so keen on.

However, last year, as disappointing as he was to Giants fans, he slugged like .545. He would certainly offer protection to Joey, just on reputation.

He’s 34.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 20, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

i got yer fix right here!

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 19, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

/Billy Mays'd

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Alternatively, I hear we're close to signing Dontrelle.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 20, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I like this idea.

How much longer before he signs, do you think?

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So Kubel signed with the DBacks

2/15- we probably could’ve afforded that if we wanted to, but maybe not. Since Beltran is the only other major LFer left (I think) I guess we’re going to have to trade for someone if we don’t want to roll with Heisey/Sappelt to start the year.

by DerekH91 on Dec 19, 2011 12:03 PM EST reply actions  

What was the groupthink consensus on Andruw Jones?

He could be a decent platoon partner with Heisey and still play above average D.

Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat

by -ManBearPig on Dec 19, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd take him.

Unfortunately, the Yankees do too, and I think they’d be able to offer just enough to where the only way the Reds could sign him would be to overpay him.

I’m not sure I like him that much more than Frazier/Heisey.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 19, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Andrew Jones = Tired old Retread.

End of Story.

Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.

by Madville on Dec 19, 2011 11:24 PM EST reply actions  

i'm happy we got Latos (obviously)

Although we’re still stuck with Mr 0.260 (Cozart) or Mr 0.230 (Janish) at SS, our LF is an overachiever who struggles when he moves from pinch-hitter to starter, and our closer is some guy named “N/A”.

My biggest frustration with the trade is that by giving up Alonso, Grandal & BradBox, we didn’t leave ourselves many expendable chips left to use in trades for the needed SS, LF and Closer. (Although T Frazier is expendable, but probably not overrated high enough to bring us anything good in return)

I’m not upset to see Sean Casey Jr (Alonso) go, because even though he is the most polished/professional hitter in our system, i think he only has doubles power, and IF we can sign Votto long-term, he had to be moved to get something for him.

I was upset to see Grandal leave as much of what i’ve read had him as a better defensive catcher & better contact hitter than Devin….although that opinion seems to be split here on RedRepo. As long as we kept the better of the 2 catchers…

I was upset to see BradBox go, as he looked good in his fast rise through the minors. Although i was upset to see Z Stewart go after he had a similar fast/successful rise through the minors, but has done little since getting traded away. Heck, i was even upset to see Ernie of the Rosary get traded away a year ago or so.

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 7:33 AM EST reply actions  

I think the three players were included in the trade because of the fourth player included, to some degree.

Volquez was a pricey recycle project to get someone to take.

... I still say it was a touchdown, got tammit.

by supergrover on Dec 20, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

That is the most valid argument against this trade

In that it burned all of the team’s best trade chips in one deal.

But SS isn’t a problem, yet. Cozart deserves a shot before you denounce him as terrible. And if he hit .260 (AVG, seriously?) he’d be pretty decent for a SS.

Grandal and Boxberger hurt, but Grandal wasn’t helping the team this year, and probably not next. And Boxy is a reliever. He could be awesome, but he’s a reliever.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you overestimate the offense needed from a Shortstop

The NL average in 2011 was 261/314/374. Cozart is certainly capable of putting up those numbers, with good defense. Getting average production from any position doesn’t sound particularly sexy, but for the league minimum, and with the other big bats we have, it’s perfectly acceptable.

Putting it another way, the bump we’ll get from Latos over our fifth starter is much, much better than what we’d get if we had traded those same prospects for a Shortstop.

by ken on Dec 20, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I want offense wherever i can get it :-)

We don’t have it at LF (unless Sappelt finally gets a real chance)
We don’t have it at CF (although that’s debatable depending on what you want from Stubbs)
It’s unproven at C (with Mesoraco being more or less a rookie, and Hanigan never really being the main guy back there)
It’s streaky at 3B (Juan is streaky and so is Rolen’s health)
It’s inconsistent from RF (Bruce didn’t do much to keep teams from walking Votto 100+ times)

So i look at SS and LF as positions where we can definately use an increase in offense to add to what we have in Votto and BP. So settling for a guy whose ceiling is “league average” at SS isn’t appealing, although it may be necessary this year.

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Bruce was the 2nd best offensive player on the team last year.

Votto and BP are both above average for their positions. Stubbs is right about average.

The catchers should be about average. So should SS. LF and 3B are the questions, but realistically nothing is going to be done about 3B, and Walt has explicitly said he’s seeking a LFer. So, there isn’t too much to worry about.

And I think you’re going to be very disappointed in Dave Sappelt.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Question

Are you concerned that Stubbs will continue to fall?

If 2011 was his floor, I am fine with Stubbs, but if he falls off too much more he does not belong in the starting line up.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 20, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

If his K rate keeps going up (unlikely) or his BB rate drops,

I don’t think he’ll be in the lineup much longer.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Then maybe Walt will Volquez him to the Braves for Jurrjens at the deadline!

Yes, I just used Volquez as a verb.

And I capitalized it.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 20, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

outside of the 2nd half of 2008 Stubbs has never professionally hit above 0.270 at any level

And he’s always been a high K guy (even in college)

So 2010 & 2011 are probably what to expect from Stubbs going forward:

0.255 ba, 0.325 obp
1 K every 3 AB’s.

So he’s basically a slight upgrade over Corey Patterson – more K’s, but more BB’s and more SB’s. But at some point it would be beneficial to have a CF who can hit the ball too.

He finished 16th out of 21 qualifying CF’s for batting average last year, and 19th out of 21 in OPS.

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take his 2010 slash line of .255/.329/.444

I am mostly concerned by his drop in power.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 20, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think his drop in power is him trending towards where he really belongs

He’s a guy who had 3 HR’s in 411 AB’s in L’ville in 2009 and then as soon as he crosses north of the Ohio River he turns into a hitter with decent power.

I think his drop in power is him trending towards where he really belongs. It was abnormally high in 2009 and 2010 in the majors due to him probably benefitting from playing in GABP + pitchers still learning how to pitch to him.

In college he only had 1 HR / 25.5 AB

In the minors he only had 1 HR / 56.7 AB

In 2009 Cincy he had 1 HR / 22.5 AB
In 2010 Cincy he had 1 HR / 23.4 AB
In 2011 Cincy he had 1 HR / 40.3 AB

In 2012 I’d guess he is closer to 1 HR per 40~45 than he is to 1 HR per 20~25.

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

But his OBP was .364 in the minors

including a .353 OBP in AAA.

The popular wisdom a year ago was he changed his approach in the minors to get on base more at the detriment to his power.

I would be okay if he sacrifices his power and gets an OBP over .340.

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 20, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

ya gotta stop looking at batting average as an indicator of a guy's worth

that being said, Stubbs certainly needs to step it up

Fuck lion say what! i got a fuck lion now come fuck wit me

by UncleWeez on Dec 20, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He was a tick above average last year in terms of total value

I know we want to see more from him, because we’ve seen him do it before, but dang.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 20, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

OPS (on base plus slugging) is a much better gauge for hitting

And you’ll find it on just about any stat sheet, from ESPN to Yahoo to baseball-reference. Team scoring correlates highest with OPS, following by on base %, slugging, and then average.

Average is always going to underrate a guy like Stubbs, who has some power, a decent walk rate, and can fly on the basepaths.

by ken on Dec 20, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

If Cozart can hit 0.260

in 2011 that would have put him 17th out of 23 qualified SS players.

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

ProTip: If you want to have these kinds of discussions on RR with anyone other than obc2,

start citing a stat other than batting average.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

yes yes, WAR, OBP+, etc...

i agree w/what you’re saying, but doing a quick check while at work i can find & easily sort BA’s of players online. I can’t find the “advanced super special stats w/a cherry on top” at work so quickly.

anyway i was just using the BA’s to give a general feel for the guy’s relative rank :-)

by ephram on Dec 20, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Or baseball-reference?

Double Bummer.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 20, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i go there often

but it’s not as quick to compile a list of top stats people for a season to get a quick ranking.

by ephram on Dec 21, 2011 7:26 AM EST up reply actions  

You're wrong about that.

You just haven’t learned yet how to do it efficiently because you haven’t invested the time or asked for help. But you will learn.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Sappelt = offense?

I would actually argue that based on our offense last year combined with what Stubbs provides defensively that while he hurt us on some level and should hopefully improve, if 2011 was his basement we can most certainly live with him in CF, as long as he bats maybe as high as 5th, but more realistically 6th or 7th

Start Hanigan, work Mesoraco into the mix

We’ll have to hold onto our butts Jurassic Park style at 3B

We’re fine in RF

SS will be fine b/c we’re not running out there the shit we did last year, thank god

LF, who knows? Honestly, who cares?

Our pitching improved in the rotation, IMO our bullpen’s improved over the last couple of years and closer by committee actually may not be a bad thing.

I’m not worried about the offense.

Hell, I’m actually optimistic about the 2012 Reds now that we have Lay-tose and can’t give Volquez the ball anymore.. Now if the same could be said for Arroyo..

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 20, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think our bullpen looks worse than it has in the past 2 or 3 years

otherwise I mainly agree

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 20, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

why is our bullpen worse?

asking seriously

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 21, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

IMO:

Bray will be worse, Ondrusek and Masset about the same but aren’t that great to begin with. Someone has to close and Arredondo looks like the top option, but that is full of downside without a ton of upside. LeCure will not be as good as he was last year either. Coco performed well last year despite the peripherals and we’ve lost that.

Chapman could improve slightly, but I doubt it would offset the losses. If one of these guys gets injured, it potentially gets ugly.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 21, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Masset is the wild card

Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.

by Yossarian22 on Dec 21, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd take sappelt over heisey

Neither will be great, but I think Sappelt will be better.

Sappelt had better speed & OPS in the minors, and at a younger age. He doesn’t have the 15 HR power of Heisey, but has a better BB:K ratio and would be a better #1 or #2 candidate up there with Phillips if Stubbs gets dumped down to the #6~#8 range.

Although i get the impression that Sappelt isn’t a Jockety guy, and they’ll either go with Heisey or an outsider instead of Sappelt.

by ephram on Dec 21, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

BB:K ratio for batters is nearly useless.

For pitchers, it is predictive. For batters, it over-values the minor detriment of strikeouts versus other kinds of outs.

And I think Sappelt will never OPS north of .740, which is hideous for a corner OFer.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

BB:K is useful as a proxy for plate discipline. I really only care about it for minor league players as a way to guage whether they will be exploited in MLB. But it isn’t useless. And I really wish people would stop with the false dichotomy of strikeout versus other kind of out when evaluating hitters’ approach.

As for the original argument, Heisey has way more than “15 HR power” and Sappelt does not even have that. In MLB, I doubt Sappelt will have a better BB rate than Heisey because pitchers have no reason to pitch around him.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 21, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

hahahah

I’m TOTALLY with you there.

this post has some syntax and apostrophe issues - jutsin

by PeteyHendrix on Dec 20, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

random Reds game-worn jersey are actually cool

I wish I had a Russell Branyan, Rob Bell, Chris Reitsma, or Ryan Wagner

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 22, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

at the time of the Stewart-Rolen trade

i thought of Stewart as a high end prospect.

but it hasn’t worked out so far.

good thing i’m not the Reds GM…we’d never have traded for Rolen. But then again we’d have kept Hoffman & Konerko too :-)

by ephram on Dec 21, 2011 7:28 AM EST up reply actions  

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