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Reconciling Disappointment, Part 10

Position: Starting Pitcher

2011 Innings breakdown: Bronson Arroyo - 21%

                                            Mike Leake - 17%

                                           Johnny Cueto - 16%

                                            Homer Bailey - 14%

                                           Edinson Volquez - 11%

                                           Travis Wood - 10%

                                           Dontrelle Willis - 8%

                                           Sam LeCure - 2%

                                          Chad Reineke - 1%

                                          Matt Maloney - 0%        

2011 Composite pitching line (over 32 starts):

W

L

ERA

GS

CG

SHO

IP

H

R

ER

HR

BB

SO

HBP

WP

10

11

4.47

32

1

0

191.3

194

101

95

27

62

136

8

5

WHIP

BABIP

Opp BA

Opp OBP

Strand Rate

xERA

1.338

.290

.266

.326

70.3%

4.40

2011 Composite NL average starting pitcher pitcing line (over 32 starts):

W

L

ERA

GS

CG

SHO

IP

H

R

ER

HR

BB

SO

HBP

WP

11

11

3.94

32

1

0

192

190

92

84

20

61

147

6

5

WHIP

BABIP

Opp BA

Opp OBP

Strand Rate

xERA

1.310

.298

.260

.320

72.5%

3.95

2012 Contract status:

Arroyo - signed through 2013

Leake - not yet arbitration eligible

Cueto - signed through 2014

Bailey - arbitration eligible (1st arb year)

Volquez - arbitration eligible (2nd arb year)

Wood - not yet arbitration eligible

Willis - free agent

LeCure - not yet arbitration eligible

Reineke - free agent

Maloney - with Minnesota

Advanced minor league depth:

Pedro Villarreal - age 23, 4.39 ERA at A+, AA

Daryl Thompson - age 25, 4.26 ERA at AA, AAA

Tom Cochran - age 28, 3.55 ERA at AAA

Scott Carroll - age 26, 5.39 ERA at AAA

James Avery - age 27, 4.70 ERA at AA

Kyle McCulloch - age 26, 5.25 ERA at AA, AAA

Matt Klinker - age 26, 5.50 ERA at AA, AAA

Relative win increase, 2011 vs. 2010: -5

Star-divide

Brief summary of 2011: Well, it was certainly bad, but there's some room to read between the lines, perhaps.  First, of the 5 win drop-off for this group, 3 of those lost wins can be attributed to Bronson Arroyo.  Arroyo was pretty terrible while leading the team in innings, and Volquez was equal to the task in roughly half the playing time.  The other three primary starters either improved (Cueto & Leake) or stayed pretty flat while throwing more innings (Bailey). 

Also, while perhaps not quite reaching the level of "concerning", the team's vaunted depth proved to be overblown.  The primary backup starters (Wood and Willis) were not quite as bad as Arroyo/Volquez, but were not much better than replacement.  In short, depending on who was healthy at the time, the team could place any level of confidence in the day's starting pitcher about half the time.

Way too early knee-jerk outlook for 2012: Health is always a concern for pitchers, so let's put that to the side for a moment.  Also, let's take it as a given that Cueto will regress to some degree, and I will ever-so-briefly argue that Leake and Bailey will improve in a way that will offset Cueto's step backwards.  The fate of the arms, then, seems to rest of three primary questions:

  • 1) Was Arroyo's season more a function of a natural loss of effectiveness, or was he affected by issues related to mono/back trouble? I will accept that he wasn't quite right all year; I'm not all that convinced that he will be back to the solid #3 guy he once was. Put me down for a mild bounceback; the reality of his contract and rubber arm seem to dictate that he'll be given the ball every 5th day regardless of the answer.
  • 2) Is Chapman really going to be placed in the starting rotation? Early reports from winter ball seem to contradict the even earlier reports that Chapman was indeed moving towards a starting role in 2012. Combine that fuzzy bit of news with the unlikelihood of Francisco Cordero's return, and my gut response is "no".
  • 3) Will Uncle Walt pick up a front-line starter? Watch me waffle, and say that the answer depends on your definition of front-line. I'm confident Walt will make a move; I'm less convinced it will be for what anyone would consider an ace, or even a strong #2.

In sum, the net outcome for this group in 2012 will roughly equal 2011 plus the new improvement of new guy over Volquez/Willis.  While that might seem disappointing at first glance, a 4-5 win improvement would not be out of the question, which would put this group roughly where they were in the division-winning 2010 season.

Comparable industry: The story may be apocryphal, but supposedly the airline industry, as an aggregated whole since its inception, has failed to turn a net profit.  This, of course, makes no sense.  All those airlines, all those customers, no truly comparable means of travel...and they can't break even?  It gets even more mind-boggling when one considers the scaled-down model that airlines have instituted over recent years, what with the cutback on peanuts and half-full flights.  The appeal of the business is rather obvious of course: the infrastructure and demand are apparent, and every few years we see a new company ready to take on the challenge, convinced they have the answer.  And so it goes, year after year, decade after decade, with no breakthrough.

Poll
Starting staff in 2012?
Way worse
4 votes
A little worse
23 votes
The same
34 votes
A little better
114 votes
Way better
41 votes

216 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 117 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

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I think it can only get better.

The starting pitching was pretty bad last year, and we had several down performances. Plus, I’m still in the belief that we’ll add at least a #2 starter.

It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

I voted way better

If for no other reason than that I like coming here and I like (most of) you guys and gals, and if the pitching isn’t significantly better (or at least significantly overhauled), it’s likely I’ll be so frustrated that I break each and every device that would allow me Internet access.

We don’t want that now, do we?

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

I don't want you unable to interact online, but I would like to see you break some stuff

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I do have an ancient printer in the attic

I suppose it’s about time I went Office Space on it.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 10:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

"Arroyo was pretty terrible while leading the team in innings"

Ugh. Being an innings-eater is not necessarily a good thing.

As for the airline industry…funny how people complain about Amtrak being subsidized, but not about the airlines. Can we get the government to subsidize starting pitching?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 1, 2011 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

But only the rich get richer through government subsidies

I don’t see how government subsidizing starting pitching would help the Reds. If anything, it’d probably hurt them more

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thumbing through the in-flight mag when I flew most recently.

The “Letter from the CEO” was titled “Stop air tax now” and talked about how unfair taxes on flights were and how crippling government regulation was. I strained a muscle from rolling my eyes.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Look at you! All fancy!

With your flying and your reading.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Dec 1, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, what is this "eye rolling" he speaks of?

Dude must have a PhD in Modern Living.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Dec 1, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I saw that, too

My heart bleeds. Especially when they are nickel and diming their customers for everything from checked bags to aisle seats.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 1, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

"We pass the savings on to you!"

No. You don’t.

And customers are suckers, anyways. A window seat is clearly the best option.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Not if you pee a lot.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

have a catheter in your carry-on

Duh.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Or you could just be a big boy.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, I almost never pee on flights that are 3 hours or less, but

I also have really long legs and enjoy being able to stick them into the aisle.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I got an exit row seat on the flight to Mama Schourek's house.

I actually didn’t know what to do with all that room. I subconciously developed a system of wedging my feet into the cracks between seats and the like to get into a comfortable position, and with the extra room I couldn’t do that.

On the flight back, I gave up my exit row to some 6’4" dude. I was half being nice, half assuming he was probably a Red Reporter.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone ask tHan if he has flown recently

I love exit row seats, but I know what you mean. It’s a little disconcerting at first. And it doesn’t make it any easier to sleep. At least not for me.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I can usually sleep for the first 30m-1hr of the flight by falling asleep on takeoff.

I’ve actually come to enjoy international flights because it’s the only time I really spend watching movies. But I can’t fall asleep after takeoff, generally.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't watch movies on planes

I usually bring a book or something.

But some planes have screens on the seatbacks and regular TV. I have paid for that, so I could watch a baseball game in flight.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

All I can do is read.

Can’t sleep. Can’t get comfortable, except that one time I got bumped up to first class (presumably for being handsome).

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, same here

Except for JetBlue flights…then I can just watch tv all the way

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Try codeine 3 beers, and a glass of wine

but me the fuck out all the way from Istanbul to Chicago.

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

uh no, I wish someone would have given up an exit row for me

I almost got thrown off my first flight on Thanksgiving due to some old lady who looked to weigh as much as her age and I was convinced she wouldn’t be able to open / lift the 50 lb window exit should the situation present itself

I know this comes as a shock to none of you that I would almost get thrown off a flight for this, but seriously, she was a foot shorter than me, and I’m 6’1"….

Now my 2nd flight of the day, I was living the dream…. I had enough leg room for Manute Bol

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 3, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

When I came home from Asia

I was in a row of 2 seats behind a row of 3. I was able to use the extra room and that flight is half the flights I have slept on.

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

So?

Actually when we were driving down to Myrtle Beach for vacation, my 4 year old niece only needed to use the bathroom once.

I’m a vacation Nazi and I hate stopping, except for gas, and I was very proud of her. We had to stop for her father every two hours.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

If you go easy on the liquids while filling em up with bagels and donuts..

..kids can go hours without peeing.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Dec 1, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Dec 1, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

#fistbump

When I get in the car and trek from CT to OH, I fill up when I leave CT, I stop once along the way to put some more go go juice in the rickshaw and that’s when I recycle whatever I put in me

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 3, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I prefer the window seat

so I can sleep without people climbing over me. And take photos out the window. :-)

But drinkers need aisle seats. Since you don’t buy beer, you just rent it.

One of the worst flights I can recall was when I was in the aisle seat, with a young man who was drinking heavily in the window seat next to me. It was something like 13 hours from Hong Kong to Hawaii. And he got up every 15 minutes to go pee. Meaning I had to get up to let him out. (He was not svelte.)

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 1, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I voted a littlebetter

I think Cueto has a slight regress and maybe Leake does as well. I’m hoping for a bounce back for Arroyo, however slight and also another good/consistent/whatever year from Homer.

I have to believe that Walt will go out and get a good starting pitcher – whoever that might be – that could improve the starting pitching depth on the team. And hey, maybe TWood can regain some of the form of his first stint with the Reds

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST reply actions  

High speed rail!

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Dec 1, 2011 10:57 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

*it glides as softly as a cloud

That was a disgraceful performance, in my opinion. We threw that game, we gave it away. We gave them the fucking game. In my opinion, that sucked. What's that? Playoffs? Don't talk about--playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs?! I just hope we can win a game!

by Ram27 on Dec 1, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad we have Walt and not Dan O'Dowd

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Dec 2, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Another idea for next year's series...

Make the poll options +/- number of wins for the upcoming season. I haven’t looked closely, but how does your relative win increase compare to the actual change in wins for the Reds? Are those calculated values or just guesses on your part? Was the Reds’ decline greater or less than the sum of their parts?

by badenjr on Dec 1, 2011 11:04 AM EST reply actions  

I should add...

I love this series! (Of course, I’d like it a lot better if there were more “+” than “-”.)

by badenjr on Dec 1, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

The numbers add up

Might be some rounding error, but the sum of the 10 parts should match the 12 win reduction.

by riverfront76 on Dec 1, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I asked this before but don't remember/didn't get an answer.

But why was the “first base composite line”‘s counting stats worse than Votto’s himself?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like Alonso is getting skinny.

Via Fya

It looks like Yonder Alonso didn’t just talk the talk about working on his conditioning this offseason to help with the transition to left field. He walked the walk, or rather ran the run.

Alonso, in early for some pre-Redsfest interviews, said he lost 18 pounds this offseason. He hired a personal chef and tailored his workouts toward being an outfielder.

"That’s part of being a professional," he said. "You do what you’ve got to do to play and get ready for the season. I’ve been doing that."

Alonso will never be a burner. But he was noticeably trimmer and more cut. That has to help when playing the outfield.

At least the guy is trying. Maybe he can man left field afterall.

It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

I just really hope Walt figures out a way to both get a good starter and keep Alonso. For a lot of reasons.

One, I really like the guy. I like his attitude, and I think he’s going to be a monster hitter. Two, I think he’s the best choice in LF next year. I don’t trust Heisey over 150 games. Three, we all know Joey’s gone in 2 years, and if they insist on keeping him and going for it during this window, I want him around to take Votto’s place in 2014.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you, but i think it is impossible.

Mez isn’t going anywhere and neither is Hamilton. They are our two biggest trade chips. I don’t see the FO trading off Yorman either. We have to face the facts that Yonder is really our only trade chip. If we want that pitcher then Yonder has to go.

We need a witch.

It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree.

It may not be the best case scenario, but there are certainly quality pitchers that could be had for a package like Grandal/Wood/Frazier.

Also, and this may sound unreasonable, but what if Mike Leake is a trade chip? He didn’t exactly endear himself to the fans with his Macy’s episode last year, and he’s coming off a season that many (including me) think will be hard for him to fully duplicate. If a package like Leake/Grandal/Corcino/Frazier could land James Shields, would you do it? If Homer, Wood, or Volquez can “turn it around” to the tune of a 4ish ERA and the Reds pick up a solid starter without giving up Alonso, that’s the ideal win/win, right?

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Trade your second best pitcher to upgrade rotation?

That doesn’t sound like a good idea.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

If your "second best pitcher" is no better than the fourth best for someone else

but they’ll pay you like he’s a number 2 starter, that’s selling high.

And James Shields is an upgrade over Leake at the 2 spot.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

But then Bailey/Wood/Arroyo/Volquez is a serious downgrade from Leake at #3

The net gain isn’t really worth it.

Also, Shields costs a lot more than Leake. So, bad idea.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

What are the odds that Leake has a better next two years than Shields has?

I think they’re somewhat low.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Right, but that isn't the question.

Obviously Shields is better, but by trading Leake you are leaving another hole in your rotation. So the question is, what are the odds that Bailey/Volquez/Wood has a better next 2 years than Leake?

Probably not great, which means the net gain isn’t all that good.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I look at it differently.

I say, “what’s more likely, that one of Bailey/Volquez/Wood has a 2012 equal to Leake’s 2011, or that Leake’s 2012 is better than Shields’ 2012?”

And I think the answer is clearly that one of Bailey/Volquez/Wood will do next year what Leake did last year.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, me neither.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Still, it's getting rid of a pitcher we think will be good.

We can’t afford to do that unless we’re getting two in return.

Let’s say we got Shields for a package including Leake.

1 Cueto
2 Shields
3 Arroyo
4 Wood
5 Volquez

Does that look good do you?

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

it looks better than

1 Cueto
2 Leake
3 Arroyo
4 Bailey
5 Wood

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

barely

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Except we'd be making another move (not including Leake), theoretically

1 Cueto
2 New Guy Who is Super Awesome and Nice and Cheap
3 Leake
4 Bailey or Wood or Volquez
5 Bailey or Wood or Volquez

This is much better.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Duh

1 Cueto
2 New Guy
3 Leake
4 Arroyo
5 Bailey/Wood/Voltron

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

can you get that new guy for Grandal et al?

Or will you have to use Mesoraco or Alonso?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I still think Grandal might have more trade value than Alonso to some teams

Probably not the Rays, who want to compete every year, but to a team that is somewhat rebuilding.

Shoot, maybe even to the Rays. If Grandal hits well in AAA this year (far from a sure thing, but, you know, possible) he could be rushed as a summer call-up.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

A package including

Grandal, Heisey, Wood or Bailey, a couple throw-in’s.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It all depends on the team, of course

But I’d think that package would have a fair bit of value.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that package would have a lot of value

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 1, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

hence the reason I said Leake/Grandal/Frazier/Corcino

because that package, I believe, is worth more than Leake, too!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Travis Wood is better than Cueto and Leake?

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't like it, only because Leake is a pretty safe bet to be at least decent. Also cheap.

Which is more than we can say for any of our other starters except Cueto.

Also, specific to the Rays, they probably wouldn’t be that swayed. They want hitters. And they already have at least 4 pitchers better than Leake.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I have trouble seeing Leake as anything but staying the same with more innings/improving

he’s exceeded expectations at every level and has put any thoughts of him accomplishing it by “trickery” behind.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't thinking about Grandal.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into Swansons. ~ Ron Swanson

by BigBabyBruce on Dec 1, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yasmani Grandal is a better trade chip than any prospect not named Mesoraco

For some, he might even have more value than Alonso.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun

@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Dec 1, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

For the final time

He very well may end up better than Meso, but if you think he has more trade value right now, you is crazy.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Blogfight!

Attack the ideas not the person!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Dec 2, 2011 8:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Whatever, cuntfag.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 2, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I think one of the two catchers

should/could be traded for pitching. I think teams way overvalue catching prospects and the Reds should take advantage. That is if the Reds aren’t one of those teams.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Dec 1, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

if after the futility of the last decade (and specifically last year)

the Reds don’t overvalue quality pitching more than having 3 quality catchers, they’re fucking stupid and Walt should be fired.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Ditto.

Assuming Alonso is not on the block, what would be our optimal trade offer for a SP?

Grandal – Seems like he’d be the hottest commodity we’d be willing to let go of.

Frazier or Heisey – rather trade Frazier than continue to let him rot in Louisville. Not sure what his value is at this point. He either needs to start or go somewhere else. He’s worth more to us in trade than as a 4th OF. Sappelt can be that guy and Alonso can play every day.

Bailey or Wood – I know our depth isn’t what we thought it was, but I think one of these guys should go while we can still get anything for them.

Add a couple younger guys (not top 10) and I think that’s a pretty appealing package.

TWSS.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh. Editing.

Frazier or Heisey – rather trade Frazier than continue to let him rot in Louisville. Not sure what his value is at this point.

Heisey either needs to start or go somewhere else. He’s worth more to us in trade than as a 4th OF. Sappelt can be that guy (4th of) and Alonso can play every day.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's pretty safe to say Grandal would be valued by most teams. At least those who aren't in a similar "win now" mode as the Reds are.

But I honestly have no clue what trade value any of the rest of those guys have right now. None. I could see a team really valuing a guy like Heisey, with his serious power display in 2011, or I could see no one wanting him.

I could see a team really valuing Bailey or Wood as a buy low guy, or maybe no one wants them either. It kinda sucks that most of those guys probably have more value to the Reds than they do as trade chips. But if you could get a Shields or someone similar for a package only including those players, that’d be great.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

he did

the bad news is that it was all in his wrists.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

GODDAMMIT SOMEONE SAY SOMETHING FUNNY

This is killing me. I should have known that 4th bong rip before work was a bad idea.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 1, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

At my University's paper

some guy who was writing his last article before a studying abroad for a term, wrote “Peace out bitches” at the bottom of his word doc, as a message for rest of the newspaper staff. The editor did not even read the article and printed it as it was.

The Northern Review is a high quality publication….

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

technically

there were 11 Bong rips.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 1, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Must be...they used it when Kenny was around

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Dec 1, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

good for him

Guess he’s not “still fat” as reported.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 1, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Want to make it really better?

Send the Brewers Yonder Alonso for Shaun Marcum, or better yet, send Alonso/Grandal/Heisey for Zack Greinke. Go all in.

by backtocali on Dec 1, 2011 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

There is a 0.00% chance either of those trades happen.

And the second trade in particular would be a horrible overpay.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Dec 1, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd absolutely love to have either of those guys

love it. But both of those proposals would be robbery. Unless Marcum signs a team-friendly deal sometime this offseason, then I’d be willing to go with that first one.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Advanced minor league depth:

none

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

??

Grandal? Boxberger? Frazier? Sappelt? My man Fisher?

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Dec 1, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

how many of those guys are starting pitchers?

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 1, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

anytime

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Dec 2, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

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