Reconciling Disappointment, Part 7
Position: Center Field
2011 Innings breakdown: Drew Stubbs - 91%
Chris Heisey - 8%
Dave Sappelt - 1%
2011 Composite batting line (over 650 PA):
|
AB |
R |
H |
2B |
3B |
HR |
RBI |
SB |
CS |
BB |
SO |
BA |
OBP |
SLG |
OPS |
|
578 |
88 |
141 |
21 |
3 |
16 |
47 |
36 |
9 |
58 |
192 |
.244 |
.320 |
.374 |
.694 |
|
BABIP |
Contact Rate |
Walk Rate |
Batting Eye |
SBO |
RC/G |
|
.338 |
66.8% |
8.9% |
0.30 |
27.9% |
4.00 |
2011 Composite NL average center field batting line (over 650 PA):
|
AB |
R |
H |
2B |
3B |
HR |
RBI |
SB |
CS |
BB |
SO |
BA |
OBP |
SLG |
OPS |
|
579 |
85 |
152 |
31 |
6 |
14 |
58 |
25 |
7 |
57 |
130 |
.262 |
.333 |
.409 |
.742 |
|
BABIP |
Contact Rate |
Walk Rate |
Batting Eye |
SBO |
RC/G |
|
.316 |
77.6% |
8.7% |
0.44 |
20.6% |
4.59 |
2012 Contract status:
Stubbs - not yet arbitration eligible
Heisey - not yet arbitration eligible
Sappelt - not yet arbitration eligible
Advanced minor league depth:
Ryan LaMarre - age 22, 720 OPS at A+, AA
Denis Phipps - age 25, 924 OPS at AA, AAA
Quintin Berry - age 26, 774 OPS at AA, AAA
Relative win increase, 2011 vs. 2010: -1
Brief summary of 2011: A painful regression in nearly every way. This time last year, I wrote that over the next 4-5 years, 2010 would be Stubbs's floor. Well. The hitting numbers are obvious enough, but here's a defensive stat that lends itself to head scratching: Stubbs played roughly 100 more innings in 2011 than in 2010, all in centerfield. The respective pitching staffs were within 18 recorded strikeouts of each other, with the 2010 staff missing the slightly higher number of bats. Meaning that Stubbs had somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 more theoretical opportunities to catch a fly ball. Instead, he made 14 fewer putouts in 2011. Color me baffled.
Way too early knee-jerk outlook for 2012: I'm calling a bounce-back, while scaling back on the best-case expectations. There are too many holes in Stubbs's swing for a 30 HR season, but 25 could be doable. Similarly, while the speed tantalizes, the strikeouts leave doubt that anything better than a .275 average is possible. He probably never reaches an 800 OPS, but he'll get as close as he ever will next year.
Comparable industry: It has such an appeal, in theory. If evening news programs are important, but flawed due to the limitations of the half hour time slot, then round-the-clock news coverage on the various cable channels must be indispensable. Experienced and intelligent people from varied backgrounds are interviewed for their opinions on the most important items of the day, as seasoned talking heads moderate, keeping their well-manicured fingers on the pulse of the people, large and small. Some things work, and in the right moments, the purpose of these channels is clear. You want the damn things to be a vital part of America's daily life, but you can't remember the last time you didn't walk away from the program slightly dumber than before.
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I chose "way better"
which is my first pick from the heart, not the head, of this series.
I shudder to think of Matt Kemp’s input on the “Average CF” line.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I suppose it doesn't matter
It not being a scientific poll and all, but are we voting on offense, or both offense and defense?
The stats given are all offense, but defense is occasionally mentioned.
Just wondering. I think Stubbs will bounce back on defense. Offense, I’m not so sure about.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I think he will bounce back slightly on both
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I have no idea
Was 2011 a down year for Stubbs or did pitchers learn something in his second full season? Can he adjust to what they learned or will he continue to fall?
I wouldn’t be surprised if Stubbs bounces back or continues to decline. He wouldn’t be the first guy to have a fine first year and then never do anything of note after that.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
I do have a nagging feeling he is going to continue to decline.
But I am also a pessimistic person.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
he'll be fine defensively, and I don't think he was bad this year
I hope he’ll improve in 2012, however I think we’ll see more of the same, unfortunately
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 28, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
offensively too?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 28, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
He is still an average to above average center fielder.
If 2011 Stubbs is the worse player on the team it is a pretty good team.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
exactly.
I don’t mind if Stubbs does what he did this year as a 6/7 hitter, provided that either Mesoraco evolves into the .800+ RH bat the Reds need, or that they sign a Willingham type to be that guy.
Gotta have some RH pop!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
There are only two left-handed regulars in the line up right now
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 28, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
yabbut
Hanigan? no-pop! Hernandez? Likely gone. Stubbs? This. Heisey? Not sure if a regular. Janish/Cozart? Still debatable. Rolen? HUGE question mark.
I’d love a consistent RH hitter who can sniff an .800 OPS season.
Who would you say is the most likely to reach both that level AND 400 ABs?
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
You just pointed out the problem with the team
not the lack of right handed hitters, but the lack of a sure thing after Votto, Bruce, and Phillips.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
No
The problem with this team is the pitching.
It’s the pitching, stupid!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 28, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
I am nervous about both
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 28, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'd like to see them somehow improve on both
While I’ll grant that the protection thing is overblown at times, I would really like to see someone behind Votto who is comparable as a hitter. Sure the offense wasn’t bad last year, but an improvement is an improvement, no matter where you’re applying it. Certainly pitching is priority number 1.
we need a TOR SP better than Cueto
until we get one of those….
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 28, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Well
The offense has been one of the best in baseball the past few years without that big righty bopper you crave. They may not have an all-star righty bat, but they have a number of slightly-above-average righty bats. Those decent bats add up at the bottom of the lineup, even if they don’t impress at the top.
More to your point though, I think we’ll get an .800 OPS or better out of left field and catcher next year.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 28, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Tis team needs more consistency from 5 - 8...
Roland will play about 75 games and do OK…Devo Mescaline may turn out to be just the ticket at catcher (esp offensively), I’m still a big-time Todd Frazier Booster esp. at 3b.
and then there’s Yonder Alonso if he can play at Greg Luzinski levels I’d be happy.
Of course I’m hoping that Cozart is either #1 or #2 in the line up most of the year.
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
by Madville on Nov 28, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would like one more solid dependable guy
Stubbs could be that guy, if he hits a bit closer to his 2010 numbers. The Reds scored 55 less runs in 2011 than in 2010, and I think the lack of a steady guy like Rolen in 2010 to compliment Bruce and Votto was a big part of that.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 28, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
I know, I know
I just wonder how much better Jay would be with another (preferably RH) bat in the middle of the lineup.
The Reds were only 13th in baseball in away OPS, though, and while that short porch in GABP is awesome, I’d still love a RH bat to step up in the “Votto window.”
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
I like
The Votto Window as a title for Cy Schourek’s Being John Malkolvich-esque movie from that other thread.
by the finest muffins on Nov 28, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You think we'll get an .800 OSP out of catcher?
I want some of your optimism
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Catchers
I think Hanigan and Mesoraco are going to be good for us.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 29, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I like both
in fact I border on irrational man-crush with Hanigan. And Meso has exceeded all my expectations already. But just that .800 OPS number, though not outlandish at all, seems set up for disappointment to me. We really (or at least I really) don’t know what Meso is going to do with the bat.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Hanigan is one of mine, too.
It’s just such a solid approach to hitting, minimizing his negatives and emphasizing his positives. I really like the concept of this Skelton guy coming up. Also so that we can have a Red Skelton.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Yeah, we had like a Han-crush competition last year!
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
How do you feel about OPS?
taking it back, bitches!
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
I think his defense is the only thing that's keeping him average
unfortunately
he needs a big bounce back year in 2012 to sniff above average
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 28, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Now give me tonight's lottery numbers
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
You can take your '13' and shove it
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
I voted "way better"
but I have a tendency to be overly optimistic.
I don't know why my kids call me that. I think I'm a pretty nice mom.
I'm surprised he made so many fewer plays this season...
I know Cueto became more of a ground ball pitcher, but I wasn’t aware of similar transformations by other pitchers. Maybe a large number of Arroyo’s big flies signficantly skewed the numbers against Stubbs by getting over the wall??? I’m grasping at straws here.
According to Fangraphs, Stubbs UZR was only -2.5 this season. That surprises me. It says his arm was good (4.4), but his range was pretty weak (-7.1). How can that be for a guy with his speed? I suspect that UZR doesn’t account for player positioning, and I remember thinking that the Reds were playing Bruce out of position when I saw them in person. I wonder if the Reds shaded Bruce and Stubbs toward LF a lot to compensate for the Jonny Gomes/Yonder Alonso experience, and if their advanced metrics suffer as a result. I kind of think they’re both good to excellent defenders, and I don’t believe that either is remotely below average.
Also UZR is not gospel.
Feel free to trust it over your eyeballs and every scouting report ever.
A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 28, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Also, coming in was a struggle for Stubbies last year
IMHO
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I think that is one of the harder plays to judge an outfielder on
As a former (and I suppose current) outfielder when you get those plays you’re running in on there’s a fine line between deciding whether to go for the catch or to back off and play the ball on a hop, . If you decide the former you’re risking the ball getting past you and the play turning into a double or worse, and there’s really only a small window for you to decide without over-pursuing and the ball getting past you anyway. It’s a play in baseball that’s really deceptive I guess is all I’m saying, even on the ones where the OF made the right call it could look like he could have gotten there.
Not saying you’re wrong in your assessment of Stubbs on those plays (I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if it were something he needed work on), just that its a play you need to be careful with when evaluating it.
From watching Stubbs (and eyes do lie)
I got the feeling that his biggest defense tool is his wheels and he has mediocre to poor instincts. I feel like there were several times I saw him break the wrong way on balls and either barely caught them or pulled up short of them.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
So, I read that Johnathan Broxton wants a 1-year deal to try and re-establish his value.
MLBTR mentions the Reds as a possible destination. Could be a good low cost option until Boxy is ready next year.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
I'm convinced the Reds are going to try to solve the SP issue via trade first
and once they know how much that’s going to cost them in salary for next season, they’ll go get a closer (since the market for closers is much, much deeper and full of FA’s).
I think they like Boxy and want to put him in a Masset-like role starting this year, with a view to 2013, so a 1 year deal for a closer is what they’re targeting, but unless they solve the SP issue this week, Boxy may be gone (and will likely be too expensive anyway.)
Speaking of…Yonder+ for Matt Garza anyone?
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
no way do I want Yonder becoming a Chicken Fucker
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
me either
but no way do I want a Cueto/Leake/Arroyo/Bailey/Wood or Volquez rotation, either.
If it’s not Shields, who is it the Reds get?
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Trade for Jurjens
sign Burhle.
Problem solved!
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Buerhle will be too expensive
Neither one is really going to be a great help in the playoffs, should we make it. It’s time for a difference-maker. Either of those would be an upgrade, but it would feel like settling to me. The Votto Window isn’t that big…
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Burhle looks like an ace to me
He has the on field numbers, a guy who has put up an ERA under 4 8 out of 11 seasons, and has never failed to reach 200 IP as a full time starter. He is healthy and puts up great numbers. He has a career ERA+ of 120. He isn’t a left handed Bronson Arroyo. His down years are like Arroyo’s good years.
As far as the intangibles, he has won a World Series, and that playoff run included throwing 9 innings of 1 run baseball in the ACLS. He has been the leader and ace of the White Sox staff for years, and all his teammates seem really upset that he is leaving.
If there is an early 30s soft tossing lefty who I am willing to take a chance on with a long term contract it is Burlhe.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
As ambivalent as I am about Buerhle
It will be a lot of fun to watch Yossi try to type his name for a season or four.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 28, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If the Reds do not sign Buerhle ALL will be lost!
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
NICHT IST VERBOTEN
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 28, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Dios mio...!
/’creds’d

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think that, in a vaccuum, Garza looks great for the Reds in 2012
but you can’t trade your best hitting prospect to the team with the highest payroll in your division with 5 years of control left for a good pitcher with 1 year of team control.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
He has 2 years of team control
2012 is his 3rd arb year, but he was a super-2 guy, so he isn’t a free agent until 2014.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
but, still...
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
by -ManBearPig on Nov 29, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you
I’d really like to have Garza, but giving so much to the Cubs will really bite us down the road.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
shouldn't matter, unless we signicanatly out bid another team.
Garza has a price tag and ether we are some other team is going to pay it.
Opening day rotation of:
Burhle
Cueto
Jurjens
Garza
Leake
GET IT DONE WALT!
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Getting confused between Broxy and Boxy
@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!
by Dave from Louisville on Nov 28, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
I chose "a little better".....
cuz i’m still pretending that Dusty is going to move him to sixth in the order and leave him there all season. Hopefully this leads to fewer at bats that start with a fastball taken right down the middle for strike one and end with Stubby flailing at a slider low and away. Seems like that happened once a game last season.
Yep...matchu you be right.
If Stubbs doesn’t produce more offensive consistency then the Reds be hurting in 2012.
Maybe Alonso in LF, Heisey in RF and Bruce in CF…
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
I'd be willing to see that OF
provided that Bruce agrees to trade the offseason twinkies for offseason yoga.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 28, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
or maybe some pilates
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 28, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
!
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
by -ManBearPig on Nov 29, 2011 1:44 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
nah
it is real the trade will be announced after negotiations begin.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 29, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
RR has a store?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 29, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
whoa
Googling for that image, I thought “I wonder if I can find a pic of the store I grew up next to?”. Sure as shit I did; I’ve known both of these fine gentlemen since I was born:

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I've passed through Rabbit Hash
true story
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 29, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
On your way to or from the casino? And why was I-71 backed up?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
from
some accident involving a tractor trailer, shut down 71 for like 8 hours
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Dec 2, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions

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