Votto 6th in MVP balloting, Phillips shut out
Congratulations to Joey Votto for another spectacular season, though he did not win the MVP. Ryan Braun took the prize this year, with Matt Kemp and Prince Fielder rounding out the top three. Brandon Phillips should have received some down-ballot support at least, as he posted the 7th-best season by a position player per fWAR. But alas, he'll have to console himself with the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger.
6 months ago
Charlie Scrabbles
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BP not getting any votes shouldn't have been a surprise
Jeff Zimmerman called it 5 days ago.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Yeah, I'm not surprised
but it sure woulda been nice.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 22, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Braun?
I thought it was going to be Kemp.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I feel like there may have been some hesitation on the voters' part
to give CY and MVP to two players on a mediocre team.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
Looking at some of the guys that got 10th place votes, I would bet that they got them from local writers
BP’s occasional squabbles with the Cincinnati press probably prevented him from getting any votes.
Indeed
I had a vote. Here’s my ballot: Braun, Kemp, Pujols, Fielder, Upton, Votto, Tulowitzki, Berkman, Shane Victorino, Jose Reyes.
Definitely not a homer, for sure.
Hmmm...did ctrent ahve a vote?
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
I would guess no
Most of the voters seem to be old guys.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
You say that like its a bad thing?
I played a little first base in my day..should have gotten some votes if you ask me…
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
Most voters seem to be employed by traditional media sources
@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!
by Dave from Louisville on Nov 22, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
It's not just that
Even among traditional beat writers – even before there was an Internet – the MVP voters tended to be the most veteran. Theoretically, any member in good standing can vote. Practically, it’s seen as an honor, and tends to go to those who have “paid their dues.” Often for longer than C. Trent’s been alive.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I agree - through deduction!
If MVP voter, then veteran writers.
Most vetern writers are in traditional media.
Most MVP voters are in traditional media.
@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!
by Dave from Louisville on Nov 22, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
interesting
According to MLB Trade Rumors, the vast majority of NL MVP candidates were acquired via the draft. Only two exceptions: Berkman (free agency) and Halladay (trade).
The AL MVP candidates were a lot more diverse. A lot more trades mixed in with the draftees, and an international signing.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I thought the NL Central sucked
5 of the top 7 in voting from the Central and so was the World Series Champion.
by Jack Armstrong started an All Star Game on Nov 22, 2011 8:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
still sucks
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
Hanigan
MLB Trade Rumors says the Halos want him.
Rosenthal says the Reds could re-sign Hernandez, making Hanny expendable.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Keep reading...
They’ve also got a post about starting pitching that indicates that Chapman won’t be in the running to be a starter. This team frustrates me…
by badenjr on Nov 22, 2011 10:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You should read Fay's actual piece.
Jocketty clearly was saying Chapman wont be considered as closer. (/sticks out tongue at jch) MLBTR misinterpreted it.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Nov 22, 2011 10:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think you misread that
Here is the article from Fay, which they referenced/copied (why people refer to MLBTR instead of the source is beyond me):
Walt Jocketty would not comment specifically on espn.com’s Buster Olney report that the Reds have an interest in Oakland closer Andrew Bailey.
"I can’t comment of other team’s players, Jocketty said, "although others are OK talking about ours. I will say we’re looking at improving pitching. The first priority is finding a starting pitcher. If (Francisco) Cordero leaves, we’ll have to look at finding a closer."
A trade might be the only outside alternative. Former Minnesota closer Joe Nathan signed with Texas for $14 million over two years. Other free agents also figure to be outside the Reds’ price range.
The Reds may look at internal solutions.
"That’s something we’ll discuss," Jocketty said.
Aroldis Chapman is not among those who will be discussed.
"Probably not," Jocketty said.
Clearly Chapman is not being considered as a closer option. I see no indication that he’s no longer an option as a starter. The plan to use Chapman as a starter has not been put on hold. The only thing they changed was that he is not going to Puerto Rico. They are going to stretch him out in Florida instead. MLBTR has it wrong.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Sorry if I sound bitter
but I got into a twitter spat with a guy yesterday who told me that an A. Bailey for Alonso deal was being discussed. When I called him on it, he referenced me to MLBTR, who had misquoted a Jim Bowden tweet, of at least misrepresented it. MLBTR is a great aggregator, but they are shitty transcribers and lousy thinkers.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Nov 22, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
people reference MLB Trade Rumors
because they aggregate all the Tweets, and summarize stuff that’s behind a paywall. You can post just one link, instead of half a dozen, and you don’t have to worry about whether people have Insider subscriptions and what have you.
Twitter is really kind of a sucky medium for real journalists, because of the length limit. I don’t think they misrepresented Bowden’s tweet. It DID sound like Alonso for Bailey. If that’s wrong, it’s the fault of Twitter’s limits, IMO, not MLB Trade Rumors.
The actual tweet was:
Buster Olney my ESPN colleague reporting Reds are talking to A’s about closer Andrew Bailey. A’s source confirms their interest in Alonso.
Maybe the first sentence is completely unrelated to the second, but linked that way, it sure sounds like Bailey for Alonso.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Nah
The biggest problems these days are people mistake “interest” for “discussions.” Lots of teams have interest in players. That doesn’t mean that the player is available in this specific deal. For me, saying a team has “interest” is a long way from saying that a “Player X for Player Y deal is being discussed.” Using vague phrasing like Bowden did is exactly why a lot of these ridiculous rumors start in the first place.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Nov 23, 2011 8:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also, my point wasn't that people link to MLBTR
But more that people say “MLBTR says…” They don’t say anything. They repeat. Occasionally they report something, but they shouldn’t get credit for somebody else’s work.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Nov 23, 2011 8:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
This
MLBTR is, for lack of a better comparison, the Drudge Report of baeball news/rumors. All the content is links to other people’s work. The only original content they have is meaningless “this team needs this” crap.
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
And 5 years ago, they served an excellent purpose
Because in the days before every major and minor baseball writer had their own blog and twitter account, it was a really convenient way to see all the latest rumors/news.
Now, they really are superfluous but are just trying to stay somewhat relevant with “original” content. The problem, like we’ve said, is that they often misinterpret or misrepresent info because they are lazy or aren’t thorough.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Nov 23, 2011 8:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
Twitter has done this with a lot of so called rumor sites.
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
I'm sure tHom's first follow would be Tebow
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
by btcoop71 on Nov 23, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You think? I would have guessed Tebow would "follow" Thom
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
So tHom would finish first?
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
by btcoop71 on Nov 23, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I still think they serve an incredible purpose.
The site works really well for me, because I can get on there and see what everyone is saying. Mainly, the site just pulls random crap from all the beat writers and journalists and posts “rumors”. That is why the site is called what it is.
It is like reading political news. You have to be smart enough to know where the biases are, and try to read through the crap. They are just trying to put stuff out there for people to read. If something is misinterpreted then it is the readers fault, not the websites. Some people just aren’t very smart.
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 23, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
There’s a lot of chaff on Twitter and even in beat writers’ blog posts. MLB Trade Rumors weeds it out. They make it easy to keep up, even if you aren’t glued to your smartphone. Big stories are on the right sidebar, teams on the left, and keywords let you keep up with news on individual players.
Yes, people are dumb, but I think part of the problem is the beat writers still write for print. People tend to have much shorter attention spans online. The type of complicated sentence structure that works in print is easily misinterpreted online, where you’re lucky if someone spends 3 seconds reading before clicking off somewhere else.
In this particular case, I think the problem started with the Fay. His post was just not written for quick understanding and easy re-blogging/re-tweeting.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I agree we should kill the internet
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 23, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
So it's Fay's fault for writing his post in such a way that it requires actual reading to understand it?
How dare he!
The problem with MLBTR is that they try to be so fast with news that they often mis-report things, which is true in this case.
Also, they often forget about prospects and other players and completely ignore context when discussing potential trade or FA targets. It’s not really their fault, as 30 teams is a lot to keep track of, but if you know a lot about a particular org, you’ll find a lot of their “reporting” to be inaccurate.
Also, with re-tweeting, you really only have to follow 2 or 3 key people on twitter and you’ll get all of the info MLBTR offers, only a few hours sooner, from the source, and without hackneyed analysis.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Nov 23, 2011 10:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They didn't misreport it
People are just reading too quickly and not understanding what was written. It’s MLB Trade Rumors that requires actual reading to understand.
I’m not blaming the Fay. Just pointing out that his post is not meant for the Internet age. Different media have different requirements. You wouldn’t put a dissertation on a bumper sticker.
In the case of a blog post, you should be giving some thought to how easy it is for others to grab a quote and re-post it. It’s not unreasonable; in the past, people would worry about the first line, or a good soundbite. Now it’s writing so you can be easily re-posted.
I know why the Fay wrote it the way he did, and why MLB Trade Rumors phrased it the way they did. They both wanted that Jocketty quote in there. But the contortions they went through so it was included and comprehensible made for some rather awkward phrasing.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Yeah, MLBTR was really confusing.
I think Fay doesn’t owe anyone anything in the way he writes his posts. (well, he kinda owes the English language something, but that’s been well documented on here)
He includes all relevant Jocko quotes, and puts them in decent context. If someone wants to link/quote him, it’s their job to make it snappy, not his.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I agree with this.
I am not quite sure how BubbaFan thinks Fay should writer, I guess only in tweets? I think the way he does his blog with either quick one sentence updates or short stories is a pretty good way for him to do things.
The onus is on others who rereporter what Fay writes to create pithy explanations.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 23, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it might seem odd
But the considerations writers make for all media are odd when you’re not used to them.
Pithy (and more importantly, easily quotable) is the name of the game online. We’re still in transition, but I expect both readers and writers will eventually adjust to the new media.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
But not everything can be written in 160 characters or less.
I realize that I may be fighting technology and trends with a steam engine, but if the name of the game is short and sweet how do you discuss anything remotely complicated.
To me what Fay wrote was pretty short, simple, and was a lot of meat with little fat.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
The MLB Trade Rumors version wasn't bad, either
Seriously, it’s pretty straightforward. The reason people are confused is they are reading the headline, then jumping down and reading the part about Chapman, without reading what’s in between. That’s how people read on the Internet.
The switcharoo comes in the quote from Fay’s article:
"I can’t comment of other team’s players," said Jocketty, "although others are OK talking about ours. I will say we’re looking at improving pitching. The first priority is finding a starting pitcher. If [Francisco] Cordero leaves, we’ll have to look at finding a closer."
The only way MLB Trade Rumors could make clearer is if they put a big headline before that last line. REDS ALSO LOOKING FOR CLOSER or something like that. But that’s rather awkward in the middle of a quote.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
eh.
If most or all written news is going to be online, it can’t all be pithy and quotable. Not that Fya’s blog is some great work of journalism, but he’s just trying to get news out. Who cares if someone can easily quote it? People clearly are reading it, and the fact that people want to link to/reference it at all means he’s doing his job.
And the reason the MLBTR thing is confusing is not because people are reading the headline then jumping to the Chapman part. It’s because the title indicates starters, but the entire post is about relievers. That’s dumb. They never make it clear they are switching to discussing relievers only. Then, there’s this:
The hard-throwing southpaw was supposed to work as a starter in winter ball before a shoulder problem put that plan on hold.
While not actually stating he’s no longer going to be a starter, it strongly implies it, especially in the context of the larger discussion. The piece is just plain confusing and poorly written, having nothing to do with Fay.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
but
it’s following Fay’s lead. Fay’s title is about starters, but the text is all about relievers.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
And yet, Fay's post isn't confusing at all.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Nov 23, 2011 6:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Haven't you heard? All disagreements are my doing.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Nov 23, 2011 10:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i do not believe that to be true
I think you just like mind exercises, and this is glorified debate club
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 27, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think they're quite as sensationalist and partisan as Drudge
I think they still serve a purpose. Not everyone wants to follow every beat writer’s Twitter feed and blog.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Not everyone even wants to be on Twitter.
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 23, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Ah, thanks!
I’ll sleep much better tonight now. (And FWIW, I only remembered that I saw it on mlbtraderumors.com earlier.)
by badenjr on Nov 22, 2011 10:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dang, I didn't realize Nathan got 7mil/per
that’s a good 2-3 over what I expected
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Well
by performance Cueto and Leake are locks for the rotation, and Bailey was not spectacular but also did nothing to pitch himself out of the rotation in 2011, and you know Arroyo will have a spot due to his contract, leaving one place for Chapman, Wood, and Volquez, or an off season acquisition.
My opening day pitching staff would look like
Cueto
Leake
Bailey
Wood
Arroyo
With a bullpen of
Volquez
Masset
Ondrusek
Arredondo
Bray
Another Lefty
Long man
And Volquez, Masset, Ondrusek, and Arredondo would all be used pretty interchangeably early on and see how things shake out.
I think given Chapman’s lack of starting in the U.S. it would be prudent to keep him in AAA early and promote him when he earns it. The Chapman who started in AAA in 2010 would not be an effective big league starter.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 22, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
That would be the safe thing to do
Especially with the shoulder problem and all. If the Reds are seriously planning to contend, they can’t have Chapman learning on the job. Though that’s what they say the plan is; they think having the big league pitching holding his hand with make a difference.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I mean if Chapman has an incredible spring training I won't complain that he is in the rotation
but I just think that expecting him to do something he has yet to even do well in AAA at the big league level is asking too much. Plenty of guys with great stuff take a while to adjust, and Chapman should be treated like a long term investment rather than somebody who has to produce in 2012.
Really the best thing would be
ACE
Cueto
Leake
Bailey
Arroyo
With Wood serving as the long man/spot starter.
Or evern
Cueto
Leake
200 IP+ ERA+95-105 Workhorse
Bailey
Arroyo
Would be a step up,.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 22, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
even if he has an incredible spring training
I think I’d rather see him start in Lousville. Spring training stats don’t mean all that much. The good players don’t take it seriously; if they aren’t fighting for a roster spot, they tend to goof off. And pitchers generally don’t go the distance in spring training games, until the last week or so. It’s not a realistic test.
OTOH…Chapman has, what, four years left on his contract? That’s not all that long term an investment.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
No way
Don’t get me wrong I like watching him pitch but it’s not even fair. When he puts up runs he beats himself with walks, not due to “stuff.”
I don’t know what AAA accomplishes in his development at this point….allow him to lose without consequences??
@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!
by Dave from Louisville on Nov 22, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
A few things
yes it allows him to lose without consequences, but even more it allows him to learn without consequences. It is easier to learn how to be a big league starter against AAA starters and with AAA expectations (I would assume).
Also it allows him to learn without earning MLB service time. Would you rather he struggle with command and get beat around at AAA, or waste another year of team control at the Major League level while he struggles with command. Part of a good long term investment is not wasting it when it yields weak results. If Chapman needs a few months of starting to ireally become a useful big league starter, I would rather him do that at AAA, and he remain under team control until 2017, than watch him suck this year and lose him in 2016.
The Reds have a lot to gain and little to lose by rushing Chapman to the big league rotation before he is a big league ready starter.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 22, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
it allows him to learn in a lower-pressure situation
Which might be important, given his injury history (and his tendency to not be honest about it). But that’s not my main concern.
What he needs to learn is not “stuff,” but how to be a starting pitcher. How to pace himself, how to field his position, how to hold runners on, and how to adjust if his best stuff isn’t working.
If you’re in Louisville, you must have noticed that he had an ERA over 4 in Louisville as a starter (over 5 after the first month). Matt Maloney had a 3.34 ERA that year.
Yes, he was wild, but from what I saw, the problem was that he couldn’t pace himself. It took him two or three innings to get up to full speed, he’s spend an inning or two there, then fall off a cliff. His velocity would drop so suddenly fans thought he was injured. He’d try to throw harder, and get even wilder.
IMO, this is an important part of being a starter that he can’t learn in the pen or in spring training: how to pace himself, and how to compensate for fatigue.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Chapman is inelligable for free agency until 2016
he has collected one year and change of MLB service time, and if his current contract ends before he accrues 6 years of service time the Reds still control him and if they can’t come to terms on a new contract they will go to arbitration.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Nov 22, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
He has four years on his current contract, but if he is put in AAA the contract could be longer.
You still have six years of team control over a player. Hell if the Reds want they could keep him in AAA for the whole year. He would still be the Reds for five more seasons. They just have to deal with arbitration afterwards.
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples. I'm gonna need a different metaphor to give this nine year old. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 23, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
You forgot LeCure.
Shame on you, Justin. Shame on you.
#NeverForgetTheStache
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
I did keep reading
You got it backwards. Aroldis Chapman “probably” won’t be one of those solutions refers to closers, not starters. Unless Andrew Bailey and Huston Street are starters.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Sorry...
That didn’t come across as I intended. The items weren’t related except that they were stated on mlbtraderumors.com. You certainly didn’t miss anything. I just thought the Chapman news was the bigger deal, and I’m glad to know that they lost something in translation there.
by badenjr on Nov 22, 2011 11:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Or...
I guess I was the one who lost something in translation. Guess I just skimmed the post about starters, saw that Chapman was mentioned as not an option, and failed to recognize that they’d started discussing the closer role. My fault.
by badenjr on Nov 22, 2011 11:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Their wording was terrible
They followed the statement about Chapman with one that says that using him as a starter has been put on hold, which isn’t true. But putting that sentence there, in a post that talks about the Reds priority being starters, makes it sound like Chapman is no longer being considered a starter. It’s easy to get it confused how they have it laid out.
Follow on Twitter: @jluckhaupt. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Nov 23, 2011 8:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Rosenthal can blow Madville.
and Olney, and Heyman too.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
Crum-Bum Beat
by -ManBearPig on Nov 23, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Sometimes I want to hug you
sometimes I’m scared to get near you.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
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