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Reconciling Disappointment, Part 3

Position: Right Field

2011 Innings breakdown: Jay Bruce - 93%

                                            Chris Heisey - 5%

                                            Fred Lewis - 1%

                                            Jeremy Hermida - 0%

2011 Composite batting line (over 650 PA):

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

BA

OBP

SLG

OPS

574

82

146

26

2

31

95

8

7

68

155

.255

.338

.470

.808

BABIP

Contact Rate

Walk Rate

Batting Eye

SBO

RC/G

.297

73.0%

10.4%

0.44

9.5%

5.45

2011 Composite NL average right field batting line (over 650 PA):

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

BA

OBP

SLG

OPS

577

78

156

32

4

21

75

11

5

61

128

.271

.345

.449

.794

BABIP

Contact Rate

Walk Rate

Batting Eye

SBO

RC/G

.317

77.7%

9.3%

0.47

9.7%

5.24

2012 Contract status:

Bruce - signed through 2016

Heisey - not yet arbitration eligible

Lewis - arbitration eligible (2nd arb year)

Hermida - with San Diego

Advanced minor league depth:

Stephen Hunt - age 22, 795 OPS at A+

Felix Perez - age 26, 643 OPS at AA, AAA

Andrew Means - age 24, 632 OS at A+

Relative win increase, 2011 vs. 2010: -0

Star-divide

Brief summary of 2011: Bruce didn’t exactly take a step back (OPS+ was just five points lower in 2011 than in 2010), but neither did he take the quantum jump towards superduperstardom that most of us predicted.  On the one hand, Bruce stayed healthy all year.  On the other hand, his defensive prowess took a significant and noticeable and quantifiable dip.  Amidst the ups and downs is the reality that Bruce’s basic peripherals stayed nearly unchanged from the prior year, lending to the possibility that this is exactly who Bruce is, with little more or less to come.

 

Way too early knee-jerk outlook for 2012: There is still natural upside here, to be experienced as the age curve typically is.  However, the chances of Bruce ever being league MVP probably need to be strongly tempered.  Next year is an improvement over this, but not a drastic one.  40 HR is still a possibility at some point, but not in 2012.

 

Comparable industry: For years, even decades, some of the smartest people in the world have pointed at nuclear power as the energy solution for a world in need of solutions.  It’s clean and efficient, they say, and is in little danger of becoming scarce.  In the era of man-made global warming, and no blood for oil, nuclear energy is the slam dunk to end ‘em all.  And yet.  Whether driven by fear of reactor meltdown or an indelible link between energy source and rogue weaponry, the movement has never fully materialized.  The supporters will continue to beat the drum, the naysayers will continue to point out flaws in the argument, and the rest of us will sit in suspense, wondering which of the smart people is more correct.

Poll
Right Field in 2012?
Way worse
3 votes
A little worse
5 votes
The same
48 votes
A little better
167 votes
Way better
29 votes

252 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 124 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

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These are great!

I love the notion that each position contributes some change in # of wins from the prior year, and I think that’s where this series is awesome. I like seeing the comparison to the league average too, and thinks it frames the discussion well.

One suggestion though, and I don’t know how best to do it… I’d like to see the stat line and playing times splits from the prior year in addition to the most recent year. I think it would help see where the extra (or lost) wins came from. Thanks for putting in the effort though!

by badenjr on Nov 21, 2011 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

Good idea

I’ll keep that in mind for next year, if there is one.

by riverfront76 on Nov 21, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't know if this counts as an "industry"...

But to me Jay Bruce is more like retail. He blows up for a great month or two a year (the Christmas season), but otherwise displays mediocre, even a touch disappointing, results. There’s a lot of belly-aching all year about how the economy is underperforming, striking out, if you will. Then, the big product releases come for Christmas – anyone remember this: ? – and we all hope that it’s just a precursor of what’s still to come.

by badenjr on Nov 21, 2011 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

Everyone knows that there are four types of industries...

Tourism… food service… railroads… and sales.

And hospitals/manufacturing…and air travel.

by Nasty N8 on Nov 21, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I give up...

That was supposed to be a reply…

by badenjr on Nov 21, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

goddammit

that still gives me chills. I miss that. FIX IT WALT

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Nov 21, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Biggest reason nuclear hasn't taken off is plant construction costs

Its several billion for a new reactor, and they take years to get up and running. If it could all be done privately we’d probably have a lot more nuclear plants but the government needs to be involved in financing of that magnitude. So I think we need some kind of bailout for Bruce to get full value.

by ken on Nov 21, 2011 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

After they are properly cooled

We can sell Jay’s spent hitting rods for massive profit.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Hehe. Rods.

Hehe. Massive.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 5:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You seem more fixated on cocks than usual.

Is there something going on at home you want to share?

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He should toatly be ashmead.

A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart

by PeteyHendrix on Nov 21, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

That's your second dick joke tonight, well done

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 21, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

this is offensive to my people

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Nov 21, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You should gather your people and wage war

DYSLEXICS UNTIE!

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

not to mention the cost of insurance

if something goes wrong.

The taxpayers need to step in if there’s a Bruce meltdown!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I heart Jay Bruce

I’ve been following him since he was in the minors, and, um, you may have noticed I tend to get attached to players I’ve followed through the minors. And he seems like a really, really nice guy.

But…it’s looking more and more like we may be at peak Jay Bruce. Guys as good as he is, as young as he is, generally don’t improve. They’ve reached their peaks early, rather than being superhuman specimens.

I do think he might hit a few more home runs; but we can probably also expect his defense to drop off. He’s 24 this year, and that’s the defensive peak for outfielders. Plus, he’s put on 30 pounds since hitting the big leagues, if his reported weights are correct (and I suspect it might be more than that).

He’s still a very valuable player, but we probably can’t expect him to carry the team. Any more than he already is, anyway.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 6:02 PM EST reply actions  

i must disagree

Most guys as talented as bruce peak between 26 and 28 yrs old, very few ballplayers peak at 24. (Although dwight gooden peaked at 20, eh?)

Jay needs to get into much better shape, no doubt. I’ve been asking the reds clubhouse gang to remove the doughnuts from the pregame plate for well over one year. Jay looks soft in the middle, pudgy.

His defense has been very strong for two years now. I don’t think there is another NL RF id take in the field over Bruce.

That said, the reds RF offensive stats, as a whole with Bruce getting 95 percent of the playing time, is decidedly league average.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Nov 21, 2011 6:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No way he's peaked.

I’m not worried about his pudginess, either. It happens to a lot of guys, especially the uber-talented types that didn’t have to work as hard as everyone else.

See Cabrera, Miguel.

Jay really wants to be great, and I have no doubt he will adjust his eating and workout habits if it becomes a concern. He’s no bum.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why people get into arguments with you from time to time
No way he’s peaked

How do you know? I’m one of the biggest Bruce supporters around here, and I still think he has a 900+ OPS season in him, but there is also a very, very real chance that he’s not going to get much better. And there is ample evidence to support that.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

This is not an argument that needs support.

The assertion that he has peaked is the minority view. You won’t find much support for it outside of paranoid Reds fans.

If you want to give examples to support why you think that, be my guest.
He has shown stretches of dominance followed by stretches of incompetence. I think he will become more consistent. Maybe he’ll never be a(n) MVP candidate, but certainly a frequent All-Star.

If he’s exactly the same next year, or takes a step back, that would be extremely unusual.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I have talked to a number of fans of other teams who think he's "peaked". I have argued the opposing view, but they have a point.

His K rate and BB rate have been basically unchanged for the last 3 seasons. That strongly indicates that his plate approach is not developing beyond where it currently is. His ISO has hovered in the same neighborhood over that time too.

Last year’s numbers were largely driven by a .330 BABIP, which is unsustainable for most hitters not named Votto. This year he had almost an identical year to last, only his BABIP normalized, hence the lower everything.

I do think he has the potential for a bit more power, and I’d like to think he’ll continue to creep the BB rate up. It’s possible it’ll all come together one year where he walks 12% of the time, Ks only 21%, jacks a bunch of homers, and has a nice BABIP, leading to a monster season. But it’s far from certain that he’s on an inexorable path towards that.

And while we’re picking nits, if you make an absolute claim like “no way….”, typically the burden of proof is on you.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, you can't convince me that I need to defend myself on this one.

The thought that Jay has already has his best season is simply absurd.

I understand your paranoia, considering the team we love, but there’s not enough data to warrant this worry.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

i'll go further

and predict that bruce will have a worse season next year, but it will be because of injury

by 'tHan on Nov 21, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I'm with nyc and BF

Jay Bruce is playing very near his peak right now, IMO. Of course he could have a season or two that tops what he’s done so far, but I think this is his baseline.

Andruw Jones peaked from 21-23 (with a matching seasons at 25 and 28), for example. Kenny Lofton peaked his first three years in MLB. Reggie Jackson peaked at 23. There’s lots of examples of this. Guys don’t start out as 5-win guys at 21 and stay on a normal progression with average player aging curves.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Nov 21, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I would not be horribly surprised if Bruce is a career .260/.330/.490 hitter

but that is not a bad thing.

I also wouldn’t be shocked if he figures something out and his OBP goes up 20 points.

"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone

by Yossarian22 on Nov 21, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

double groupthink!

Bruce has peaked!

No he hasn’t!

everyone’s right!

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 21, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Except you, you're still wrong. Dumbass.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure there is double groupthink about that too!

some will think I’m wrong

some will think I’m right

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 27, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Growth isn't always geometric

It’s possible that, entering his 25 and 26 years, he has a “figures it out” season. Like GBS says it’ll depend on consistency. This past year’s overall TTO numbers were pretty similar to 2010, but he never had the second-half hot streak to boost his numbers like he did in ’10.

FWIW, his calendar year OPS from 8/8/10 through 8/7/11 was .922.

by ken on Nov 22, 2011 7:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, given what we've seen so far,

I’d say an OPS between .810-.850 is probably the most likely outcome for 2013. I’m hopeful for more, but I’m not expecting it.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I smell an avatar bet!

Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?

by andromache on Nov 21, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

No way. I like Jay too much to bet against him.

That would make the season much less fun. Now, if my *cough*hero*cough* Renteria gets re-signed, the bets are on!

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I should be more specific

when I say “peaked,” I mean he won’t get a lot better. Not that he’s going to fall off.

From the article I linked to:

I checked out the 20 best 23-year-old hitters over the past 10 seasons (minimum 502 plate appearances, using OPS+ from Baseball-Reference.com). Bruce ranks 12th on that list with the 127 OPS+ he registered in 2010. The guys on this were already good hitters at 23, so we’re asking: How much better do they get?

The answer, at least with this group: Not much. Hitters ranging from Albert Pujols to Miguel Cabrera to Joe Mauer to David Wright to Nick Markakis were essentially fully developed hitters by 23.

That doesn’t mean they sucked after age 23. Just that they didn’t follow the usual curve, getting better until age 27-28. They were at their peak at 23, and more or less stayed there.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And of course those guys didn't get any better.

They went to college. Their ceilings were already known when they were drafted.

You won’t find many big time HS prospects in this group.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not sure that anyone knew Pujols' ceiling when he was drafted.

I’m calling bullshit on the “of course.”

A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart

by PeteyHendrix on Nov 21, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

he spent one semester

at Maple Woods Community College. Technically, he went to college, but one season playing community college ball is hardly definitive. He was only 19 when he was drafted.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

19….

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 21, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You don't think he's 31 either?

I’m so happy we agree.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 22, 2011 7:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

am I the only person who thinks its ridiculous to lie about your age as a 16 year old immigrant?

And also thinks that coming to the US at that age with falsified papers without an agent to grease wheels is pretty damn tough?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Nov 22, 2011 8:09 AM EST up reply actions  

The biggest thing to me

Is that if he was 17 he wouldn’t have been able to attend HS for some reason, and couldn’t have played on a HS baseball team.

Seems like pretty decent motivation.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 22, 2011 8:30 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

no

A lot of players lie about their age, and I understand the suspicion, but he emigrated at a young age. Originally to NY, where so far as I know, there’s no reason a 17-year-old can’t attend high school and play on the baseball team. (Whether there is a baseball team is another story.)

If he really was older than he claimed, I think there would be proof by now. Just because so much is riding on it, and he’s so much in the media spotlight. Much more so than Danny Almonte.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 22, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I've seen the birth certificate.

I got it in an email chain. Pujols is secretly a Rastafarian, trying to ruin baseball.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Nov 22, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

so basically lie that you're older to get here?

only to revert to your true age once you’re here?

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 27, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

if you look at the list

There are quite a few guys who never went to college on it.

Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, Hanley Ramirez, Joe Mauer, Jhonny Peralta, Grady Sizemore, David Wright, Cheesehead Rasmus, Eric Chavez, Robinson Cano, Billy Butler, Aramis Ramirez, Andrew McCutchen, Jose Reyes and Asdrubal Cabrera didn’t go to college. Only four on the list went to college, and out of those, two only had a year or two of community college – probably not a great help to their development.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Almost all those guys are all-stars.

I don’t think you could say any of them have had disappointing careers. Rasmus, maybe (and if so, I was right about him, ‘Creds). He’s still young, though.

A dope trailer is no place for a kitty.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Nov 21, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

that's my point

The fact that Bruce may have peaked doesn’t mean he’s a bust. I’m not predicting he’ll fall off a cliff next year. Just that he probably won’t get a lot better. (Plateau Bruce, instead of Peak Bruce?)

He’s in some fine company as he is.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's the point

by the time 23 came around, that’s who they were as players. They weren’t still getting better, which is to say, they’d already peaked. Having a disappointing career is a totally different argument.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Nov 21, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

"by the time 23 came around"

it took me a long time to figure out you weren’t talking about michael jordan and the nba

by 'tHan on Nov 22, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

x

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 21, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Best comment from Teh Fay's blog on trading for Bailey
saw yonder alonso this weekend. he’s still fat. trade him.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Nov 21, 2011 8:39 PM EST reply actions  

Take that back the replies are better
redsfansince67
2:31 PM on November 21, 2011
All fat guys are bad…
See Ruth, Babe.

BirdBrain2
4:28 PM on November 21, 2011
When they’re just 24 years old, ya.
And Alonso isn’t just fat, he’s borderline obese.

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Nov 21, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

/wipes melted cheese off of chin

wait, what did these people say?

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Nov 21, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I knew it was a matter of time

Thanks for following through on the predicatable RR snark.

Let’s go to the breakdown-
Commenter 1 says Alonso is FAT, implying FAT = bad baseball player
Commenter 2 claims Commenter 1 is making an modus pones inference
Commenter 3 states Alonso = OBESE, OBESE > FAT; thefore cementing the original modus pones inference……when in actuallity Babe Ruth was also bigger than Alonso!!!!

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Nov 21, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

this is america!

Speak English!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 21, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

not really

it didn’t involve Dungeons & Dragons, or Magic: The Gathering

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 21, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

DavefromLouisville really rolled a critical fail in misspelling modus ponens!

ZING! I bet he feels bad about himself now!

Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?

by andromache on Nov 21, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

totally

he shouldn’t come out of his mom’s basement for another week now

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Nov 21, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Or band camp

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely, I never got a chance to look this cool

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

And sadly, you never will.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Nov 22, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Critical fail

That being said, the only thing that could beat my Abyss/Black Vise/Counterspell deck was my Serra Angel/Moat/Counterspell deck

@DavefrmLville.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Nov 22, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

x

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he'll be a little better next year

I don’t think he’s peaked yet at age 24. Also, when comparing him to previous years, just remember that his wrist injury affected his production a few years ago.

I think he put too much pressure on himself this season to live up to the big contract. Hopefully he’ll work on some things this offseason and come back strong next year.

I agree that he can post even better power numbers in the future, as well.

Respect my authoritah!

by BigBadBruce on Nov 22, 2011 12:03 AM EST reply actions  

Anyone know...

Have any studies tried to identify when someone is “in the zone”? More specifically, have there been any that tried to determine if young players develop an ability as they age that allows them to get in the zone more regularly and/or stay in the zone longer? Bruce is exceptional when he’s locked in, but mediocre otherwise. To get better, he needs to play at the high level of performance more often.

by badenjr on Nov 22, 2011 12:10 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

I read one article

that claimed that’s the difference between good players and bad ones. All players slump sometimes, and go on hot streaks sometimes. The good players are the ones who have shorter slumps.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 22, 2011 6:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Shoulda jumped on this...
I’ll make you a bet right now
If Jay Bruce has an OPS+ of 127 or lower at the end of the 2011 season, I will change my avatar to an image of your choice until Opening Day 2012.

If Jay Bruce has an OPS+ of 128 or higher at the end of the 2011 season, you will change your avatar to an image of my choice until Opening Day 2012.

Deal?

“He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby.” — GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
by jch24 on Dec 13, 2010 3:33 AM EST up Rec Flag

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2011 12:31 PM EST reply actions  

If we had made the bet, he would have gone 4-5 with three home runs on the last day of the year to bump his OPS+ from 126 to 128

Ask ‘creds, it’s how avatar bets work.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I've got him at 119...

he would’ve had to go 20-20.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I was talking completely hypothetically, so I didn't stick to the 119

But yeah, taking that bet woulda sucked for me. :)

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You could change your avatar anyway...

since that would be the honorable thing to do.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

hahahaha, me......honorable

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Nov 22, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Modus ponens strikes again

but this time, I think it’s valid. Avatar betting with you is a losing proposition.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Nov 22, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

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