Setting the market for Cordero
Jonathan Papelbon was given a 4 year, $50M contract by the Phillies last week. If he averages 65 innings a year in Philly, he'll be paid at a rate of $192K per inning. There are plenty of celebrities and pundits on the speaking circuit who have commanded a higher appearance fees, but they generally stick around for at least a half hour - maybe even a Q&A and/or book signing. Although, with Papelbon's epic stop-downs between pitches, he's a better value than he seems. It also wouldn't be out of the league of what Francisco Cordero was paid over the life of his contract with the Reds: $162,233-per-IP.
Though I assume Reds are still interested in bringing Cordero back at the right price, they at least nominally have a vacancy as Cordero tests the markets as a free agent. So what does the Papelbon signing mean for that closer market? The Sox and Phillies both play at the highest end of the market, so it probably doesn't affect the pool of teams that would put out offers for CoCo's services. But it does at least set an upper bound for what closers will be paid this offseason: $12.5M AAV and four guaranteed years. No one is going to be giving Cordero his old contract, which paid him $12.125M in base salary over 3 of its four years.
Let's look at a quick 'n' dirty power ranking of the remaining free agent closers and closer candidates.
| Player | Age | 2011 stats | Previous $ | fWAR $ value |
| Ryan Madson | 31 | 164 ERA+, 2.25 FIP | 3 yr/$12M | $7.6M |
| Francisco Rodriquez | 30 | 145 ERA+, 2.72 FIP | 3 yr/$37M | $6.4M |
| Heath Bell | 34 | 146 ERA+, 3.23 FIP | 1 yr/$7.5M | $2.3M |
| Francisco Cordero | 36 | 160 ERA+, 4.02 FIP | 4 yr/$45M | $0.6M |
| Joe Nathan | 37 | 83 ERA+, 4.28 FIP | 4 yr/$47M | $0.2M |
| Kerry Wood | 34 | 117 ERA+, 3.59 FIP | 1 yr/$1.5M | $2.1M |
| Brad Lidge | 35 | 282 ERA+, 2.82 FIP | 3 yr/$36M | $1.6M |
| Frank Francisco | 32 | 120 ERA+, 3.80 FIP | 1 yr/$4M | $2M |
| Matt Capps | 28 | 95 ERA+, 4.75 FIP | 1 yr/$7.15M | (-$1.7M) |
| Takashi Saito | 42 | 195 ERA+, 3.40 FIP | 1 yr/$1.75M | $1M |
| Jonathan Broxton | 27 | 67 ERA+, 5.63 FIP | 2 yr/$11M | (-$1.4M) |
There's a pretty big fall-off in pedigree after Brad Lidge. And a lot of these names have some serious injury history attached to them, which might mean a good number of one-year contracts. Still, it's a pretty crowded market. Names like Huston Street and Brandon League are also floating around as possible trade bait. If, for example, Street were to change hands and the Rockies to choose another closer from within, that would likely nix another potential suitor for Cordero.
MLB Trade Rumors estimated in August that there might be as many as 16 teams looking for closers in the offseason. With Papelbon signed, the Phillies are off that list; so are teams like the Tigers and Marlins. A liberal estimate - including the Reds - says almost half of major league baseball may be at least window shopping.
I think it's a safe bet Cordero in the top half of available closers, which means he'll attract at least a few of the more agressive bidders, depending on who enters the market and what trades are available. Cordero is also among the oldest, but also one of the sturdier closers available. That says to me he'll get at least two years.
What teams might pursue Cordero? First, let's mention the Cordero's agent is named Bean Stringfellow. That's the name of a man who's lean, mean and will work long hours to make his client happy. I'd assume he wants to continue on as closer, so while it's possible a big money team could "Rafael Soriano" him, that seems like a remote possibility. The Rangers might consider bringing him back to where it all kind of started if Neftali Feliz starts, making him the closer or set-up man to Mike Adams. But if they're actually looking, they're likely to go after the very upper tier - Bell, Madson, K-Rod, possibly Street or Nathan. The same goes for the BoSox.
The leading suspects with open vacancies in the ninth inning are the Jays, Twins, Mets and Dodgers, with the Astros, Padres, Rockies and Orioles possible, but less likely. There's enough depth in the closer market that teams put-off by Cordero or Bell's asking prices can start looking at Wood, Lidge, Nathan or trade options. And even if Papelbon, K-Rod and Madson are all getting 8-figure-a-year contracts, there might only be one big-market team in on CoCo. In the second tier, I'd say Cordero's upper limit is around what Bell made last year: $7.5M AAV. The lower end could be what Francisco, Frank made last year: $4M.
Things could break in a weird way and Cordero could end getting three years/$32M. More likely is that teams with similar pay scales to the Reds are competing for Cordero. I think 2 years/$10M still sounds about right. If the Reds have as little as $7M-$8M to spend, it needs to be about right for someone else.
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The closer market should be interesting
I have a feeling the market will crater once the big shoppers are done and that Cordero gets no more than 2/15. Him being a Type A doesn’t help him. Of the teams you mentioned as potential suitors, I see the Jays as too smart to spend big on Cordero, the Padres as too cheap, and the Mets, Astros, and Dodgers as too poor/uncertain. The Twins are more likely to bring Nathan back on some kind of discount. The Rockies and O’s are interesting darkhorses.
The Reds would still have to offer him ARB.
Considering the amount he was paid last year, I’d think he would be crazy to turn down arbitration. I wouldn’t offer him arbitration, but I would to Hernandez.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps
but this may be Coco’s last chance at a multi year multi million dollar contract. He could still get something along the lines for 3 years and 20Mill, but if he spends another year in Cincinnati he may forfeit that.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Why are the comments closed on the week in review thread?
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
blame Canada!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 9:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because it is a new week
Time to move on and not live in last week
Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.
by brown11b on Nov 14, 2011 9:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because you touch yourself at night
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Nov 14, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Any word
On the progress of a weekly gif/picture only comment thread?
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
I think the gifs should flow naturally in any thread
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
All the gifs in the thread made it nearly unreadable
so we decided to shut ’er down.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Maaaaan.
Screw you, Charlie. Screw you.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 14, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I concur 100 %
That prob means the thread should be reopened and more gigs be allowed to flow freely, however.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
#MassAppealTheory
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Nov 14, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Coco takes an inordinate amount of criticism
If the reds only have 7 mil to spend it will not matter who the reds closer is next season, it will be another .500 season.
Time to change the world, time to kiss the girl. #RosterShakeup #HotStoveLeagueTrade
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
Jocketty has stated that the Reds will be trading this offseason, not making many FA moves.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
I'm in favor of Madson at 4/40.
Yeah, it’s expensive, but it’s less than we paid for Cordero for a much better (and younger) pitcher.
I do think these numbers undervalue good pitchers: starters because they can pitch more often in the playoffs, and relievers because they can be used in high-leverage situations. Would I rather have a great starting pitcher? Absolutely, but it isn’t going to happen. The free agent market demand is too high and the supply is too low. Free agent starting pitching is going to be massively overpaid. God willing, we’ll be able to make a huge trade for somebody who’s still in arbitration, but I don’t think signing Madson to a big contract will change that.
Actually, it may be the opposite. The Reds could have made a big trade in June, but didn’t. They didn’t because they thought it wouldn’t be enough to make the Reds winners. If we sign Madson, the powers that be may think we’re close enough to make the big trade.
Our hitting isn’t bad at all. While I’d like to have a better LF and a better SS or 3B, I think we could win the whole thing with what we have. What we need is more pitching. If we blow all of our money (outside of trades) on a closer, that’s OK by me.
Madson at 4/40 scares the shit out of me
I’d go 4/40 for KRod, but I doubt he’d take that.
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
Really?
I think Madson is every bit as good as K-Rod, maybe better. What makes you prefer K-Rod so strongly?
It's not really a strong preference
2 years younger, higher K rate, etc.
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
Reds need more power arms in the pen
Bring back some nasty!
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
need more bats!
Howie Kendrick, Victorino, or Prado!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 10:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think the reds have holes in cf, lf, and 3b
And I’m not 100% sold on cozart yet, but he is SSS promising
I’m hoping mesoraco and bruce make The Leap this season.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
Cozart can't really do any worse than Janish.
He’ll get his shot, and it will take disastrous numbers to remove him.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Net wins isn't high enough.
Replacing END/Frazier, Alonso, or Stubbs with somebody significantly better is way out of price range, and if it’s only a small improvement we may as well see how the kids do.
And yet you're willing to shell out $40 million for a marginal improvement
over not just Cordero, but likely other in-house candidates.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
That's not even close to marginal.
Getting Madson doesn’t mean we have to get rid of Arredondo or LeCure. It means we get rid of some Jordan Smith type.
The difference between Madson and the worst pitcher in the bullpen is at least 4 wins, IMHO. A good part of that is simply pitching a lot more innings, keeping our other good relievers from being overworked. That’s more than the difference between Drew Stubbs and Joey Votto, when you factor in position. There’s maybe two center fielders I’d actually trade for over Stubbs*, and they’re out of our league.
*By which I mean two center fielders that I’d give up good prospects for the improvement, not that I would choose over Stubbs.
Madson was worth 1.7 wins last season
which was the best season of his career.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't miss the days of Todd Coffey tossing high leverage innings for the redlegs
#ShoreUpThe2012Pen
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
No doubt
and I agree that we need at least one more quality high-leverage arm in the ‘pen. But to think that Madson is four wins better than replacement is just incorrect. Even if you think WAR is inaccurate in assessing reliever value, there’s just no way he’s that much better.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Arrrgh....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/6063
I was adjusting for ALI, but it turns out that BBRef already adjusts for ALI. So the 1.4 is before aLI, and the 2.2 is after.
So maybe 3 runs. They also claim to adjust for chaining, but I don’t see how it would work.
Right.
Relievers just aren’t valuable enough to warrant that kind of money.
At absolute best, he’s worth about 2 wins more than the worst arm in the pen, which means you are paying him exact market value for the upgrade, which a team with a small payroll can’t afford to be doing.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Yep
The Reds could probably add two quality middle/setup guys for roughly the same amount of money.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
I thought he was worth 2.2.
And that still doesn’t factor in high leverage situations or less work for the rest of the bullpen.
I’ll stand by what I said. The difference between Madson pitching 60 innings and the combination of some schlub pitching 20 innings in garbage time and the Masset/Bray types having to pitch 40 more innings is at least 4 wins.
There just isn't evidence for that.
First, because Masset/Bray wouldn’t be pitching 40 fewer innings if Madson is in the fold.
Someone else would be, and the fact that we don’t know who that will be, combined with the fact that we don’t have any idea how effective said player will be (do you really want to comment definitively on how good/bad Boxberger will be?) means there is no way you can claim that Madson will be a 4 win improvement for this team.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Consider also, Madson's innings don't replace the Jordan-Smith-type
The Jordan Smith who gets booted off is the guy who pitched mop-up duty in blowout games that were already decided. It doesn’t matter who pitches those innings really, but now it’s the guy just above Smith on the totem pole, not Madson. Madson’s innings replace Coco’s innings, and those weren’t too bad last year. Or they replace the supposed closer (Masset/LeCure/whoever you think it will be).
No, you’re right we don’t get rid of Arredondo or LeCure, those guys get pushed into less important situations, reducing their impact/importance. Arredondo or LeCure as the closer would compile some WAR total not much lower than Madson.
This is a long way of talking about chaining. It’s why 4/40 for Madson is a really dumb idea, for the Reds especially.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I concur about those holes
also, what about C? you’re hoping for that Quantum Leap
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 15, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
the man said he was hoping for a leap at C
I was just asking for a confirmation of his statement
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 16, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Explain your math to me.
If the Reds have about $7-8 million to spend, and blow all of that (and then some) on a closer, how are they going to magically have money to pay this awesome starter they are trading for?
James Shields, David Price, doesn’t matter. They are all going to cost significant money that won’t be there if they waste it all on Madson.
4/40 for Madson from this team would be a terrible decision.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Spending that kind of money on any reliever is stupid anyway.
Typically, you can find anyone in your bullpen to fill that role for much less. I’d rather spend the money elsewhere. We can use a closer by committee if necessary. I’d think a combination of Arredondo and Bray would work out well.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
I don't want bray or Arredondo closing
That would not be good times.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Nov 14, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I fear that Nick Massett is the closer next year
Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun
Grass isn't always greener
I like coco. Fire, intensity.
If coco goes I’d consider bringing in ocab to backup cozart. I firmly believe the ball club needs a veteran Latino leader.
or hire ocquendo to manage in 2013
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
They'll hire Pete Mackanin.
Wait no….. CORKING FUCKING MILLER!!!
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Bray would only be against a lefty heavy lineup
I could see Arredondo really coming on strong, as his arm strengthens more. He was pretty good when he started an inning.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I concur
if we’re going to have anyone close, it should be Homer Bailey or Edinson Volquez
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 15, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Because the amount of money they have to spend isn't fixed.
The better they do this year, the more money the Reds will have in future years.
If the Reds gamble on having a great season this year, then they should also gamble more money. They may not have the money now, but they can back end the contract.
The other choice is to do this again, have a .500 team and pray for a miracle like the Cardinals got. There really isn’t a middle ground.
A big time FA isn't going to backend his contract.
That happens to players that want to stay around… ex: Rolen, Arroyo, etc. Also, it really isn’t a good plan to spend money when you don’t have it. The Reds were planning on having 2.8-3 million fans this year. I think they got up to 2.3 million? Those numbers are going to come back and hurt the Reds. Even after the divisional championship, and having mainly the same team on the field, they still couldn’t meet their goal.
Signing a closer to a contract like that is really just a bad move. You shouldn’t pay a pitcher that much money to throw so little innings. Especially when you could get similar production for much less money from within the organization. Signing closers to big money hinders the financial flexibility of a small to mid market team.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
No way do we get similar production from anyone in the organization.
The only person who might be close is Chapman, and I think everybody wants to give a shot to start this year.
Sure, we might not be able to sign him to a backloaded contract, in which case oh well, off to plan B.
I'm not saying exact production, but similar.
The train of thought is that you can plug almost anyone in as a closer, and they will put up relatively positive numbers. I mean hell we put David Weather in as closer for a few years, and he wasn’t absolutely terrible. It certainly wasn’t ideal, but it didn’t kill us either.
In terms of money it doesn’t make sense to spend on a closer. Billy Beane has proven this. He continuously plugs a new guy in as a closer, and trades his old closer when his value is at an all time high. It is a good strategy.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
The economy
GABP ain’t gonna see 3 mil any time soon, unless they do discounted seat promotions.
Things are tough all over.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
but not for closers, they aren't.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 14, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't pay 4/40 for any closer
Use that dinero for SP and the starting lineup.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
We won't get one in FA.
Any starter brought in will be via trade, and that money will be offset in the trade somehow. James Shields is the one that makes the most sense right now, but who knows what Walt will come up with.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Haha I actually wouldn't hate it.
But, I wouldn’t pay him much money. He can have a $1,000,000 trial.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious,
but Harang is the best, if not the only, active ex-Red I’d actually not mind coming back (farmhands don’t count)
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 14, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I think he is talking pitching.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
I think he is still with the Cards
They gave him that stupid contract.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Nov 14, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
heh.
Yes. I was talking pitching. Of course I was. No way I forgot about Hamilton. No sirree.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 14, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Colossus?
Dempster?
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 10:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's what I'm against.
Trading guys like Alonso and Grandal for somebody who doesn’t improve the team enough for us to have a real shot at the title. That’s a waste.
Either go all in, or fold. Either big improvements, or sit for another year. Either is OK with me.
I'm confused.
I’m not sure how signing an expensive closer who will pitch 70 innings helps the team more than trading for an above average starter who is likely to throw 200 innings.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
You do both or neither.
Doing one is expensive in terms of money and prospects, but not enough to get this team beyond what we had in 2010.
That's fine,
but I think you are being unrealistic to just say “the money is there if they want it to be”.
That has been a refrain from fans for decades, and not just of this team. But teams have hard and fast budgets, and there has been zero indication that the Reds will spend more than $85ish million in 2012.
So in the real world, a starter is vastly preferable.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Edinson becomes the closer, Homer the setup man
Aroldis, cueto, leake, Bronson and whomever the reds trade for in the rotation.
Hmmm….the reds have chips to make that happen.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
Yep.
There are just too many good in-house options for the bullpen to think $10 million dollars for a career set-up man with one good year as a closer is even remotely worth it.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Huh?
Why does that matter? Pitching in high leverage situations is pitching in high leverage situations. He didn’t turn into a puddle of ooze when he was made closer, so I assume all of his stats for the last four years are valid.
Madson's numbers in 2011
were all almost a run better (FIP, ERA, xFIP) than his career averages.
Now, is it possible that, at age 31, he has suddenly become a far superior pitcher? Sure. It’s even possible he puts up similar numbers to 2011 for the next 4. But even then he’s just barely worth the contract you propose.
And if he regresses at all to his old self, you are looking at an albatross. These are the exact kind of contracts the Reds should be avoiding.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
He was terrible in 2006...
but in the last five years he’s been pretty consistent.
I really don’t think this was a career for him. His ERA+ was 161 last year and 164 this year. I think if you just look at his numbers for the last five years, you’ll like him a lot better.
Sure, he's a very nice pitcher
who has been worth about 1.5 wins every year until this season.
#NotWorthTheMoney
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I like this idea
though I’m not sure about putting both Homer and EV in the ‘pen. And I’m still bitter about Arroyo being in the rotation.
The bottom line though is that this off-season will have been a failure unless Walt gets a big arm for the rotation.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Homer needs to be penned yet
Right now he’s still at LEAST a league average starter. His health has been a problem, and if that continues to be, then perhaps less innings as a high leverage reliever would be a good idea, but I think it’s too early to do that.
Volquez has the stuff for closer, but not the control or, at this point in his career, the mindset.
Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"
Give Homer one more year in the rotation
if he makes 30 starts great, if he doesn’t put him in the 2013 ’pen.
God this is depressing and makes me cry when I think about 2006 hopes.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
the Reds shouldn't be afraid to trade unproven prospects
they did it with Z.Stew, and that helped bring some veteran presence to a roster that needed it
although part of me does miss Roenicke
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 15, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
They just dumped Cordero...
Madson would make less. We have an awful lot of kids on the team. We really can’t get down to $85 million with Madson and a starting pitcher?
Is there nobody who would take Scott Rolen for a PTBNL?
Rolen has a no-trade clause
And as soon as you start dumping salary, you are also shedding value from the big league squad to add wins elsewhere. It becomes a zero-sum game.
And the math has been done. Based on what is owed to whom in 2012, the Reds have about $7-8 million to spend. I’d much rather give that to James Shields than Ryan Madson(+3 mil)
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Rolen isn't going anywhere
He retires a Red, end of discussion.
The only reds who have significant trade value that earn significant bucks are BP and Joey.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
Bruce and Cueto too, if you count $5 million as "significant bucks"
But the point stands that any trade to free up salary also makes the team worse.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Would you be surprised
if the Reds are 10 games out in July and Rolen has been reasonably healthy and productive he goes to a contending team needing an extra infield bat and veteran leadership?
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
I would be surprised if Rolen had been reasonably healthy
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 15, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Papelbon and Philly may be the best match of player to fanbase in recent memory.
As for closers? I’d rather not get involved, if I had my say. I’m not sure what you’re gonna get from, say, Broxton that you can’t get from LeCure. But what do I know.
Nice 160 ERA+/4.00 FIP from our man Fran there. Probably the most “VOLATILE SSS!” stat up there.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Whoa.
The scuttlebutt on twitter is that Kemp and the Dodgers are close on a deal for 8 years and $160 million. I love me some Matt Kemp, but that’s a lot of money and years for his production.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Especially since he's been fairly inconsistent over his career
It looks like he’s turned the corner, of course, but he’s had a bad year as recently as 2010.
Never sign a player to a long-term extension when they are coming off a career year
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
He could very well be worth that, but you are paying him as if he is going to keep repeating his 2011 over and over. That’s pretty risky.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
It's just dumb
Look at any comparable player to Kemp and none of them got deals that big.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Yeah
I’d rather give that money to a player like Votto, who has a more established track record of excellence.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
and not by the Reds
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 15, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love to see Joey sign a 5 yr extension with the Reds
I just don’t think that will happen.
Reds drafted oddly. Yonder and yasmani are good prospects, neither of which will displace the young men ahead of them. Man, I’d love to see a lineup that would work with all the first rounders included in it.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
We agree on something!
A lineup with all of Alonso/Bruce/Votto/Stubbs/Granda/Mesoraco would be fearsome indeed.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
and Frazier was a conditional 1st rounder...
I’d take him in that lineup, too!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with the drafting is that they drafted the "best available" regardless of need
But are too gun-shy to trade any of them for pieces that they won’t admit that they need to compete for a title.
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
by BK on Nov 14, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Beeker!
From out of the blue with clairvoyant zingers!

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Meep meep, bitch
"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24
by BK on Nov 14, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Yep
He’s averaged about 2.5-4 WAR per year over his career so far, but this year he posted 8.7 fWAR and 10(!!) bWAR. It’s possible that he’s a 6-8 WAR player a year over the next three or four years, but I think it’s much more likely he’s a 3-4 WAR player.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, Rhianna sucked some of the WAR out of him in 2010
He just turned 27, so I think it’s certainly possible that he’s a six win guy over the next few years. But yeah, the back end of that deal could really hurt them. He’s never had a stellar walk rate or power numbers until this year. And as good of an athlete as he is, he’s never graded well in the field until this year.
He could easily be a moderately above-average corner OF in the last four years, though it’s possible that the Dodgers could get enough value up front or inflation could make a big jump in the future.
/KenGriffeyJunior'd
(kidding)
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Funny you should say that
Because for some reason I totally see Kemp as the kind of player who could have his 30s derailed by injuries much like Griffey did. And of course, Kemp hasn’t been the player in his 20s that Griffey was.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Right
We signed Junya coming off a career decade rather than a career year. A little different.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 14, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know
Kemp looks thicker (not in a bad way), more of a football build. And from what I’ve seen he doesn’t seem to be the wall-crashing type.
Yeah, I guess I'm just going more on the fact
that he doesn’t look like a CFer but they’re probably going to force him to stay there. And I think that’ll take its toll.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
he didn't have to play on astroturf that Griffey did.
It’s hardly a sure thing, but I think that Kemp’s exactly the kind of player you go big on. You could look at Bautista’s outperformance so far for a similar comp. You’re not paying for much of his down years, and you’re not in a position where you are locked into him like Colorado did for Helton.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I dunno...
it only takes him through his age-34 season, so they won’t be on the hook for a lot of his downward curve. And while last season may have been an anomoly, he is entering the 27-30 peak seasons. It’s a risk, sure, but it isn’t a foolish one.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Nov 14, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
2nd biggest tv market in the country
Strong attendance, great ballpark, nl MVP in mid 20s,
Yeah, LAD can afford to overpay That Guy.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
Yeah, if it ends up happening
I’m glad to see them keep their top guy. Even if it is risky and a bit of an overpay.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
It's not an overpay.
OK, sure, it’s an overpay in terms of WAR and stuff like that, but this is the first move by a new ownership. Their fans will decide whether they’re a bunch of dumpers or spending big bucks to go for the brass ring based on the next few weeks.
They want to do big and splashy to start out to get more people watching and more butts in the seats. This is more like advertising than the normal pay for a player.
Who is outbidding them for Matt Kemp at the moment?
I give them all respect for signing a homegrown guy and whatnot, I hope they do, but it’s still a bad contract if no one else would even come within $30 million of it.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Nobody would offer him 8 years, I suspect...
But there’s already 10 players making $20M+ per.
If he has another year like last one, he’ll get more than $20M per year. That’s a big if, of course.
Based on his last year, that offer’s probably market value or a little less. But man, the combination of only one year like that and signing for eight years in the future, jeez.
But on the other hand, if the whole point is to make a massive splash for PR purposes, who else should they spend it on?
I guess my problem with it
is that there aren’t any team options (that we know of) or anything at all to mitigate the risk for the team.
Kemp gets all the security and gives back nothing. It just seems a bit over the top for the Dodgers.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
they're paying him his projected arb salary
And then giving him the same free agent deal that Carl Crawford signed for, essentially.
Couple that with the “face of the franchise” gig and its not that farfetched, I suppose.
I just wonder what this means for Ethier, since they’re surely going to lock up Kershaw (sorry, Scrabbles!). Any way they can be bankrupt AND paying 3 big money guys like that?
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 3:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
oh, and Kemp will be a year younger than Crawford, too.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 3:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also, Crawford had 5 All-Star caliber seasons before his breakout
Kemp had one.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Kemp had a near 6 WAR season as a 24 year old
putting up roughly .300/.350/.500.
Would you rather pay 35 year old Carl Crawford the 20+million, or 32 year old Matt Kemp?
Also, Kemp’s shown he’s got the power to maintain his value, while Crawford’s value is much more tied to his speed.
Relatively speaking, I like this deal way more than Kemp’s (or for that matter, better than the one like this that Reyes is about to sign.)
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like any of them
this is a lot more than Tulo got, for example. Or Braun, or Hanley, or pretty much everybody who isn’t an outright free agent with a STRONG history of excellent performance. They’re not all exactly comparable, but this is an overpay.
FWIW, I dislike the Crawford deal as well. But he had a stronger track record and got less money and years. So how does that make Kemp’s much better?
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
because they're not getting paid for what they've done
they’re getting paid for what they’ll do.
I agree with you, I think they’re both (Crawford and Kemp) too much, but if they just agreed to pay Kemp $10 million for his last arb year for 2012 and he would have posted a year within 10% of the production of this season, he would have had a chance to get this deal with any team in baseball. As it stands now, the only team who could have offered him this is the Dodgers.
It’s a gamble, sure, and a big one at that, but I don’t find it all that outlandish.
It’s LA, too, so nothing from out there really can surprise me.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 14, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
I'm tellin' ya, it's neither.
Coaches worry about winning this year. GMs worry about winning in five years, owners don’t care about winning at all.
The stat that owners care about isn’t OBP or ERA, it’s BIS. That stands for Butts In Seats. This is Los fuckin’ Angeles. If the people there think that the Dodgers will be a winner, they’ll scramble to get on the bandwagon. I hope they publish the number of season tickets they sell in the 48 hours after the Kemp extension. It’ll be thousands.
Unless Kemp really sucks the next few years, he will pay for himself in BIS. WAR is nice, wins are nice, BIS is better.
Actually,
it doesn’t get much nerdier than BIS!
I disagree that a Kemp extension will buy that many season tickets/goodwill. I think Angelenos are still fuming about the McCourt situation, as they should be. The only thing that will rescue the team’s attendance is getting back in the pennant race. Kemp will certainly help in that respect.. If the going rate for one WAR on the free agency market is $5M, Kemp will easily earn his paychecks in the next several years.
Ethier ain't all that great.
I don’t really see what he gives you that Willingham or someone of that ilk can’t. He’s a 2-3 win player. Great. But nothing to get excited about.
The Dodgers still don’t have much to built around in that offense, unless Dee Gordon becomes amazing quicker than slower.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
In terms of WAR per IP, Cordero is 2nd among active pitchers.
http://highheatstats.blogspot.com/2011/11/best-war-per-inning-pitched-in-2011.html
An interesting read on how we might look at relievers value. The leader board of WAR/IP is dominated by relievers. Perhaps some of what relievers derive value from, for teams that is, is the fact that they can eat up a semi-sizable chunk of innings at a premium level of production. It may not add up in total WAR, but it adds a level of insurance across the course of a season. Not that the Reds can afford the premium of that insurance policy. Cordero’s contract came after what I would consider a 4 alarm fire to the bullpen in 2006-07, so they did seek insurance. This next year’s Reds team doesn’t strike me as being as vulnerable to such a disaster. The level of talent has improved all around.
Never say "TRADE VOTTO"
No, he isn't.
They made it confusing. The top 3 (Papelbon, Rivera, and Soria) are in a list above it, and the list he’s in is alphabetical, not by performance.
Whatever dude!
Thanks though, it looks like he’s roughly tied for 8th.
Some quick excel junk =
…………………. war/ip
Mariano Rivera 0.046
Joakim Soria 0.043
Jonathan Papelbon 0.040
Francisco Rodriguez 0.035
Takashi Saito 0.034
Joe Nathan 0.030
Mike Adams 0.028
Brad Ziegler 0.027
Francisco Cordero 0.027
Jim Johnson 0.027
J.J. Putz 0.027
Josh Johnson 0.026
Bobby Jenks 0.026
David Robertson 0.026
Hideki Okajima 0.026
Never say "TRADE VOTTO"
































