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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Red Reposter - Best of luck, Rangers

安全旅行, Mr. Bray.

  • For Arroyo, there will be much less Yacht Rock this winter
    If you haven't heard yet, Bronson Arroyo is not pleased with his 2011 campaign, and plans to do something about it this offseason.  "It's going to be a whole mindset of taking care of myself and that being No. 1, and pushing everything else off.  I've seen too many people have decent careers fade away very quickly. You're like, 'Whatever happened to that guy? He had a monster year for three or four years.' All of a sudden he's nowhere to be found. I'm not letting that happen to me."
  • Keith Law backs up Fay's prediction that Boxberger lands in the Reds bullpen in 2012
    I'm looking more and more forward to seeing this kid.  Law on Boxy's stuff: "[Boxberger] was at 90-94 with a hard curveball at 81-84. Right-handed hitters will have a hard time picking up the ball because he comes slightly across his body. I'd like to see even a show-me change-up just so left-handers, who hit him better than righties did this year but still didn't hit him well, don't take too much advantage of his delivery."  As of Saturday, Boxberger's been dominating the Arizona League, allowing one run in 5.7 innings while K'ing 11. 
  • ESPN gossips about potential OF acquisitions 
    Just some idle speculation about a few candidates, namely Michael Cuddyer, Kosuke Fukudome, and Grady Sizemore.  Pass.  Mildly intriguing is a potential move for Andre Ethier, who has one more arbitration year remaining.  Ethier has lost a lot of power the last two years and hasn't stayed completely healthy.  Additionally, his defense in RF, by the numbers, has been well below-average.  But I do have a suspicion that Ethier will blow up, in the good way, during his contract year.
  • BPro - When 100 Tiles Meets 27 Outs
    Up for Baseball Scrabble(s)?  BPro guest writer Diane Firstman has shaken the dust off the familiar board game by allowing the use of baseball names in addition to, you know, actual words, like "dusty" and "baker."  She scores a triple word score on her first entry - VOTTO - collecting a cool 24 points.
  • Bill Bray gets to collect a new stamp on his passport next month
    MLB selected him for the all-star squad traveling to Taiwan (or "Chinese Tapei" in case Chairman Hu is asking Commissioner Selig) for a series of upcoming exhibitions. The team is scheduled to play in three different cities -- New Taipei City (Xinzhuang Stadium) on Nov. 1, Taichung (Intercontinental Stadium) on Nov. 3-4 and Kaohsiung (Chengcing Lake Stadium) on Nov. 5-6. So if you're in the neighborhood, check it out.  Meanwhile, Redleg Nation spots a growing Reds influence in "Chinese China."

Star-divide

  • Reds denied the A's an opportunity to interview Bryan Price
    The Reds' pitching coach is still under contract for one more year.  HT to MLBTR. 
  • The Tom Seaver trade, revisited
    A brief recap of the 1977 trade that was supposed to extend the Big Red Machine.  The fact that it didn't was no fault of Seaver's.  Tom Terrific went 14-3 with a 2.34 ERA down the stretch, but the Reds finished with only 88 wins, well behind the Dodgers.  The trade almost didn't happen:  "It was later revealed that the night before the trade that Seaver had second thoughts and told the Mets that he would veto being sent to the Reds. Upon reflection, he decided that he wanted out. He called the Mets to tell them that they had his approval."   Davey Lopes of the Dodgers was far from pleased: "This has to be one of the biggest steals since the Babe Ruth trade." 
  • The GABP '11 Toyota Tundra has been released to the wild
    Or more specifically, the Warren County Sheriff's Department, which won the Tundra on September 16 when Dusty Baker spun a prize wheel during pregame ceremonies. No player hit the "Hit It Here" sign under the Power Stacks in RF this year. I presume that a '12 Tundra will appear in the same spot next year.
  • Not to get all Robin Leach on everyone, but here's a peak at Aroldis' new digs
    Aroldis Chapman has taken advantage of a soft real estate market in South Florida to purchase this "spacious" 5 BD/5 BR "must see!" So jealous. HT to Redleg Rap.

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go Cards!

I can’t bring myself to root for an AL team over the NL (reverse the curse bosox exempted). This dates back to watching ASG’s as a youth. I’m a NL guy. Anti DH.

Its sad to think the Cards have won more playoff series this year then the Reds have won in the past twenty years.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 8:04 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

jch done went Groupthinked

Original post be my true thoughts. God forbid if someone doesn’t toe the STL hate line…

Falsely accusing Troll is worse than trolling.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 9:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

there was no motivation

One could argue the Go Rangers contingency is manipulating folks for an expected response also, no? C’mon mannnnnnnnn. Plus, you personally know my Mrs is from Stl as are many of our friends/family. Id never root for them over the Reds in any game, of course, but I don’t have the animosity against the redbirds so many here do, the division realignment still hasn’t taken hold yet for me. I still see the Pirates/Phils and the Reds/dodgers as better rivals, based on historical data.

I have much more hatred towards dallas. Dallas is just gawdawful.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 10:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

My point is, it's hard to take anything you say at face value at this point

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

pot meet kettle comment of the year!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 12:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Posted from an account that was created as an attempt to troll

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not even close.

JCH, while frequently wrong and dumbheaded, is also very sincere, even when he’s joking.

OTOH, I mostly just ignore you now because it’s too much effort to figure out if you mean what you say or are just trying to piss someone off.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

whatever, queer

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

sincerely queer

A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart

by PeteyHendrix on Oct 17, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although I agree that the state of Texas can suck it

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is interesting.

A huge chunk of my family is from Missouri, and most of my relatives who actually care about baseball are Cardinal fans. And they used to be my second-favorite team. I’d root for them in the post-season and in any games not against the Reds.

Now, I really really struggle. I just have a hard time rooting for that team. And I’m going to be with some of said Cardinal fan relatives this weekend, and I’m kind of dreading it.

I wish this stupid rivalry would end. Or at least be less personal and confined to the field.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

amen!

But I can still root for the Reds… The hate seems to be one-way.

by guayzimi on Oct 17, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, to be honest

there is very little to hate about the Reds :)

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much true...

there was the Cueto thing, but that didn’t last long.

by guayzimi on Oct 17, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean?

I really don’t think very many Cardinal fans even remember that LaRue was a Cardinal.

by guayzimi on Oct 17, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I recall

Cueto was booed quite lustily on the few trips the Reds made to St. Louis.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

but it’s not like Cueto is enduringly irritating. It was a one-time event. La Russa/Pujols/Carpenter do the thing that Reds’ fans find annoying every time the teams play.

by guayzimi on Oct 17, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahhh

This is resoundingly true.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respect the Cardinals as an organization, they're really well run

But I don’t like Pujols, I don’t like Carpenter, I don’t like Larussa, and I won’t root for them.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is exactly how I feel

Add to that my smug brother in law who fits the “self-proclaimed greatest fans in the world” stereotype to a tee, and I can’t deal with them winning.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

while we're at it

Dave Duncan, Yadier Molina, and Tony LaRussa, only because he deserves to be mentioned twice.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The family I just married into...

Her mothers side is Half cards fans, and half cubs. They said “well at least he is in the division”. The baseball folks on her fathers side live in St. Paul, their response “an NL fan? seriously?”

by Eastwindquinn on Oct 17, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

the cold truth is..... however

I run a youth hostel 1.5 miles from the stadium, the WS will be good for my paycheck.

by Eastwindquinn on Oct 17, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

A youth hostel? When Derek Holland's in town?

Watch out!

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Someone should do a baseball-fandom genealogy project or graphic.

I’m 1/2 Reds fan, 1/2 Cardinals fan, with relatives who are Twins fans, Rangers fans, and Indians fans (And then there’s my confused sister, the Cardinals-Reds-Red Sox-Braves-Rangers fan.) The Reds fandom is the dominant gene, of course.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant to say that the Reds fandom is the dominant gene

for me and my brother, but my sister somehow got the recessive Cardinal gene. I wonder if there’s some untraced Cardinal-fandom on my Dad’s side…

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the Cardinals

Well said, TFM

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I’m not going to hate on the Cards for getting to the Series. They came from 10 games back in a crazy assed month. Braves choked, for sure, but the Cardinals had to play lights out the whole month to even make a choke possible… and they did.

Then they beat a tough Phillie team and a tough Brewers team.

That said, I’m still rooting for the Rangers in the Series over the Cardinals but not as an aspersion to the Cards.

"Suck for Luck"? Forget that
2010 was "Schemin’ for Green and Faultin’ for Dalton."

by supergrover on Oct 17, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's pretty much how I feel

Kudos to the Cardinals. I’m not going to root for them, but I respect what they did. TLR did a helluva job this year.

But Texas is a cool story too. They defended their pennant after losing Cliff Lee and seeing a considerably worse year from Hobbs. They told Michael Young to STFU when he started bitching in the offseason about his position and playing time, and he had a terrific year. They’ve been a shrewd organization and have a likable manager.

by ken on Oct 17, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

great manager

usually, you judge somebody by whether or not you’d like to have a beer with them.

with washington, he’d sit & do some coke with you!

#AboveAndBeyond

by 'tHan on Oct 17, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Me too.

They made a lot of risky moves and they paid off. They realized the real possibility that they would lose their best player after this year and made a run for it. They were as far back as the Reds and still came all the way back. Not that I wish the Reds made all the same moves, but I find the St. Louis approach to Pujols is a much better one than clamoring to trade our best player. I’d like to see the Reds take the next two years as a really important opportunity and make a run with Votto as the centerpiece.

I’m still rooting for Texas, however. Pujols got his World Series, and I don’t like TLR. Kinsler, Young, Beltre are all likeable guys.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

My two cents:

If the Cardinals were playing the Munich Fightin’ Goebbels, I’d be rooting for the Germans to take it in four.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

OK, let's try not to bang into Godwin's law more than once per thread

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

x

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

OK, so 2 people rec'd this.

I have no idea what I said that’s funny.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You weren't making a Roger Ailes pun?

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Arredondo. They were shining there for you and me, for liberty, Arredondo.

by DTFH91 on Oct 17, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

unfortunately, no

though now I wish I did.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

indirect props where indirect props are due...

Cy, I think this is the first time I’ve seen you confused.

Tequila and pancakes, anyone?

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Oct 17, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

show your work

so, it’s true NL love?

I mean it’s the Cards, brah

had the Brewers made the WS, then I’d root for them, but they didn’t….

I just can’t bring myself to root for them, therefore I’m rootin’ for the Fighting Former Volquezs

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Oct 18, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

This picture is beautiful

Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun

@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Oct 17, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't think of it as supporting the AL

Think of it as supporting Josh Hamilton

Whoever lives past today and comes home safely will rouse himself each year on this day, show his neighbors his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle.

by brown11b on Oct 17, 2011 9:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good grief, I'd rather support the AL

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And Arthur Rhodes throwing the ball

Afterwords, he rips of his Cards jersey to reveal a Reds one underneath

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Arredondo. They were shining there for you and me, for liberty, Arredondo.

by DTFH91 on Oct 17, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on the names from that insider article that I refuse to pay for

I’d take Cuddyer in a heartbeat over the other 2.

Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun

@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Oct 17, 2011 8:57 AM EDT reply actions  

to the DC RR contingency

Anyone seen the MLK monument in person yet? I was surprised to learn it was built at a cost of $120MM.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 9:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

and how big it is...

the angle I saw made it almost look like the Sphinx.

"Suck for Luck"? Forget that
2010 was "Schemin’ for Green and Faultin’ for Dalton."

by supergrover on Oct 17, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, really

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't bother me 'cause

I’m a grower not a shower.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Oct 17, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

We'd all like to see you do some more showering.

Cuz stuff is growin on ya.

A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart

by PeteyHendrix on Oct 17, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I read a pretty scathing review of it

Saying it looked too much like Communist agitprop. The sculptor is Chinese and has worked for the Chinese government doing public monuments, including Mao statues.

I think the reviewers was projecting a little too much of the artist on the work though. It takes some time to get used to monuments that take on such larger than life figures. Views usually soften over time and they become part of the landscape.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not Mao statues! Oh noes

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree - firsthand memories and even tactile experience (walking through the monument itself)

carry more weight.

I don’t think I could have passed any meaningful judgment on the WWII monument until I went there with my grandfather, who served in the Pacific. And he was able to look up relatives in the computer.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's what it was with me, too.

Except he was in Europe.

And this thread has my grandpa all over it, by the way, between the Cardinals love, the LaRussa hate, and the WWII memorial. Anyone want to talk about bird-watching or the weather channel?

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like my family

Grandfather was an ornithologist – I went on a few bird watching/cataloging adventures throughout Indiana in my youth. And my mother and, for some reason, my brother are obsessed with the Weather Channel

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have you guys seen The Big Year yet?

Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?

by andromache on Oct 17, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn, and I thought I was bored as a kid

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved it! I got to spend time with my Grandfather

And I did a school project in elementary school on the Tufted titmouse – my favorite bird

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm the youngest of my generation, never had grandparents

titmouse….hee hee hee, hee hee hee!

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This must be a tendency in architectural review

I guess part of the problem is that totalitarian regimes do a lot of monument building.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That reminds me

When are we having our next committee meeting regarding the plans for the Slyde statue?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Malaise forever" would be a decent tagline right now

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

As soon as you take that soap-carving class

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't need to

I minored in whittlin’ as an undergrad at Whittlinberg College.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well if we're thinking about making an adobe statue

It may interest you to know that I took some summer classes at Carvey Mudd.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

We aren't thinking about adobe

and that doesn’t interest me in the slightest. Summer classes at Carvey Mudd? You might as well have spent six weeks studying weeds at Goldenrod-o State.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 17, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Way too close to an actual college

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The sculptor is Chinese and has worked for the Chinese government doing public monuments, including Mao statues."

He is a talented artist who wants to keep drawing breath. Of course he has worked for his government, can not hold that against him, I think the work is high quality.

by Eastwindquinn on Oct 17, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heck, I'd be more surprised if he hadn't sculpted Mao

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not at all surprising, you're right

It’s probably a precondition for even being a sculptor – he was one of the first to be allowed to do it as a profession I think, post-Mao.

So I wouldn’t pass judgment on someone in his situation, but I think it’s legitimate to point out the stylistic similarities.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is,

I guess I was responding to a republican on my facebook who said “the MLK statue was made in china!” Sorry, misplaced.

by Eastwindquinn on Oct 17, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've only seen it from Independence Ave and in pictures. Not up close.

I’m not really enamored of it from what I’ve seen, but two things stand out as funny to me. One, it’s not made of white marble like so much else on the Mall. That almost has to be purposeful, cuz you can’t make MLK white. Two, it’s been noted that the statue of King looks very angry. Well, he’s also looking directly across the Tidal Basin at the Jefferson Memorial, right at the man who wrote “All men are created equal” while at the same time owning enslaved men. And diddling enslaved women. For some reason, I really get a kick out of that placement.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 17, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Oh, didn't see this before I posted.

I don’t think King looks angry at all. What I’ve heard is that it looks expression-less, because the designer has done a lot of Mao sculptures. Like I said below, I just don’t agree. I spent quite a while sitting there right in front of it, and my take-away was pensive, planning, etc.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

As I’ve said, I’ve only seen the statue in pictures. I’ve been meaning to go down and visit it and the FDR memorial in person again one of these days. Perhaps I’ll have a different reaction then.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 17, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the FDR Memorial was just odd

probably b/c the part of it with him and the dog was just so larger than life

and everyone goes up and rubs the dog

The ends justify the means

by Highlifeman21 on Oct 20, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just googled it.

I’d have to see it in person, but I really like it. I’d like it more if they did it in black basalt, but I doubt that it would show really well in the light if it was in black.

I really enjoy how he’s a bit snarly and arms-crossed. Goddamit, he has a lot to be angry about! And as for the whole “oh gee it looks like communist agit-prop,” well 1) no it doesn’t, here is communist agit prop. and 2) the dude was a socialist and anti-vietnam war and anti-lots of other things, and he’s been whitewashed a bit.

And finally, there are for worse statues out there.

The WW2 monument gets criticized a lot because it’s so damned uncreative. “Ooh, let’s throw some pillars around, maybe add a few eagles. That oughta do it.” Compared to a lot of the statues in DC, it looks like a rough draft more than a completed thing. Back in my art history days, I wrote a lot about it, so I could keep on rambling if you want.

I’m sorry if this is a bit grumpy and agitated, but that’s the kind of mood I’m in today. And public art is one of those things I get a kick out of, generally.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

My problem with the WWII memorial is that it was trying to do too much.

Pillars! With states’ names! And wreaths! And random quotes from the era! And the names of the different battles! And bas relief scenes of the home front! And a FOUNTAIN!

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly, it's like an unfinished sketch.

I like the general concept and I love that it’s an oval. But I feel like there was so much political pressure to create a monument that they rushed through the process instead of finding a good one.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The major issue with the MLK Memorial

isn’t that he looks stern, it’s that other than his expression, little about the memorial captures the complexity of his activism. The popular picture of King is all about his nonviolence, but he was increasingly militant and increasingly interested in labor rights and inequality in the months before he was killed, as well as protest against the Vietnam War. And those are really important aspects of his work too. King was in Memphis for a march on behalf of striking sanitation workers. The famous March on Washington was officially called the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. Americans have largely been fed a very watered down picture of King that emphasizes ideas like color-blindness but that is very much only one part of the story, and he didn’t stand by as the Civil Rights Movement became increasingly about asserting identity and economic injustice.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I rec'd this,

but statues aren’t the best places to show complexity. I agree with you in general that MLK has been watered down to the point of being somewhere to the right of Abe Lincoln, but I’m not sure how to do something to show his complexity short of having an MLK park like the FDR park (which I really like, btw).

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you see Colbert's funny commentary on the way they used quotes in the memorial?

He used the quote based around the phrase “drum major” as an example of the way in which things were taken out of context. The quotes would have been one place to show complexity, though I haven’t been to the memorial and seen all the quotes to determine for myself if it is as watered down as most King representations.

However, a few weeks ago I did go to the King Center for Nonviolent Social Change in Atlanta, the associated National Park site, King’s boyhood home, and Ebenezer Baptist Church, and was impressed by the way in which the interpretive exhibit gave a pretty well-rounded picture of the man. Plus they have restored the church so you can just sit in the sanctuary and listen to his speeches, which was quite amazing.

To your point of whether you can show complexity in statues without turning them into interpretive exhibits, I’m not so sure. Isn’t that why the Vietnam Memorial is so damn astounding? It is a slab of rock, but somehow manages to both evoke the daunting ambivalence America still feels towards that war while providing a moving evocation of the undeniable fact that a lot of people died no matter if it was justified. I like that all kinds of people can find themselves in the memorial, whether they are pacifists, veterans, etc. Austerity doesn’t always work and isn’t usually popular when it is proposed, but that place is pretty amazing.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never really liked the Vietnam Memorial, personally speaking.

It’s a great work of art, to be sure. I just don’t like modernist things. Especially when it comes to war, I always felt like the Vietnam War Memorial didn’t do a good job showing the terror, confusion, and general nastiness of that conflict.

I somehow stumbled into a summer job at the National Gallery of Art one summer a while back and was in a talk with the folks in my department (16th C. Dutch) about the different memorials. It was interesting to hear how they balanced “public” art vs. “conceptual” art, and how much of a role different folks should have in the process.

As I said earlier, I don’t think there’s a right answer, this isn’t Renteria v. Janish here. But any time you’re advancing the conversation and reminding the kids born in 2004 about MLK, the Vietnam War, or whatever, you’re doing an alright thing.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never heard that joke before, that's fantastic.

I remember hearing the story of my grandfather taking a trip across country before the highway system. It was really a completely different place back then, it was difficult for me to believe that the place of boiled peanuts, colored-only restaurants, and the like was the same country.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno

The scultpture of the three GIs wandering out from the trees, seeing the memorial and the names, and the looks on their faces give some complexity to the whole thing. Also the Women’s Vietnam Memorial with some nurses and a wounded soldier is given some short shrift. One of the women is looking up, and it happens to be right at the flight path of planes into National Airport. So every five minutes or so, a plane comes overhead. It’s not the help that she’s looking for. It’s a plane of people not even knowing that she and her companions are even there.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 17, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a separate sculture.

It was put there when too many people complained about the wall one.

Although unintended consequences do add to the experience.

by ashersky on Oct 18, 2011 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's why there are museums on the Mall too

And non-representational art can’t get at it symbolically sometimes. As can explication. Or just putting a placard that says “he’s complex.”

You’re right, a single statue or even an exhibit will never capture the complexities of a person, much less an era. The FDR monument does a really good job of approximating it, but they had to fight really hard to get a statue installed of him actually sitting in a visible wheelchair. There’s always a tendency toward the soaring, depersonalized tribute.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cool.

David Adjaye’s pretty baller, I hope it works out.

I was always pretty disappointed by the Museum for the Native American. Both it and Newseum seemed better suited to hosting cocktail parties than to bring your theoretical kids around to learn and explore. I hope this one does it better.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The America I Am traveling exhibit (that was put together by the Cincinnati Museum Center) had input from the director of this new museum

It’s reasonable to assume that this exhibit will be something of a template for how the museum is ultimately put together. The exhibit is currently in Kansas City. Of course, it’s already been in Cincinnati, but only something like 13,000 people went to see it there in six months.

America I Am

by Brendanukkah on Oct 17, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have a fantastic team for the NMAAHC

Adjaye is tremendous, and Phil Freelon is very underrated. Max Bond was a wonderful man; he unfortunately passed away before they won the competition, but I hope his generous spirit will be in the final design.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you that MLK's image has been watered down.

It’s a shame that so few people know about the Poor People’s Campaign and his anti-war stances, plus there’s the tendency to interpret his emphasis on “nonviolence” as simply about conflict resolution when it was really about civil disobedience. However, I still would never use the word “militant.” Even as he tackled more controversial (at least by today’s standards) issues, he remained a proponent of nonviolence.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are right, I used that word too quickly.

I have read interesting accounts of how Malcolm X and MLK played off each other, each the foil of the other and each ultimately pushing toward the same large goal. I liked that idea better than the suggestions sometimes made that they were rivals. That is too simple, they knew the utility of one another.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

the letter MLK wrote to Malcom X's wife after X died is beautiful.

Not too get too off-topic and political, but I’ve always thought you couldn’t have King without X. A lot of King’s attractiveness was that he wasn’t X, and you can’t discount X’s utility in that.

When I was in Omaha, where X was born, I went to the site of his birth. A plaque besides, he’s completely disavowed by that town.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was an amazing guy, the most brilliant of all the best-known civil rights leaders, perhaps.

I have Marable’s new biography of him but haven’t yet gotten to read it, but I’m looking forward to it.

by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 17, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is the review

Link

Which, by the way, I didn’t write. It’s not a review so much as it is a gut-level drive-by – though it’s on a blog at the Economist that I happen to like a lot.

“Agitprop” might be a misnomer – that’s what DIA called it – but it’s a word that’s come to mean politicized art. I think it passes as a term, but like you’re suggesting – if anything, this is depoliticized.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the link.

Calling a sculptor an “ace aesthetic hype man” and bullshit artist is a bit rich for me, I suppose. Blaming Lei for Mao’s shortcomings also doesn’t really seem to apply, as does getting upset that he’s Chinese. If the best American proposal was MLK playing a banjo and eating watermelon, should it have been chosen over this one?

And his final bit:

Yet I’m more than a little disappointed that a man who fought so intransigently, bravely, and beautifully for equality, of all things, has been set up for worship as a towering idol, more mountain than man, in the fabricated pantheon of the officially unofficial American state religion.

Wait…what?

It gets people talking, which is good. And it’s the first modern-era person on the mall, which is fantastic. It’s going to have to be a symol, and as CA said, go to Atlanta, Birmingham, Memphis for more information. I’m very happy MLK is on the mall, and even if the execution of the statue isn’t exactly what I had in my head, it’s better than none representation.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

ugh, I forgot to add:

I could only find one other sculpture by Lei, this one:

It’s hardly, y’know, communist incoming dread and all of that. It’s downright Mestrovician.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's some more of his sculptures

Here and Here

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen it.

I like it. Similar in overall feel to the FDR memorial across the tidal basin. I’ve read some of the criticism of the large central sculpture, but I don’t agree. I think it’s beautifully rendered, with plenty of emotion. He looks to me like he’s purposeful, thoughtful… almost surveying the future. And the collection of quotes is wonderful.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

And it was funded mostly be private donations

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

by*

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what else was funded by private donations?

The Nazis!

And Answers In Genesis!

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

one thing about the world series, is it just goes to show how dumb the all star game home field is

the cardinals didn’t have home field in the divisional series or the league championship series, but they get it in the world series?

that’s dumb.

they get home field as a wild card over a division champion with 96 wins. that’s also dumb

sometimes, baseball is dumb.

by 'tHan on Oct 17, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

THIS ONE COUNTS!

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I blame Nyjer Morgan

Bad karma!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 17, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was gonna say.

The only thing that makes STL in the series even remotely palatable is that Morgan got his comeuppance.

Cold comfort, but still.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getty images

Say it all.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 18, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't see this last night

Good lord what a pussy.

“I know Albert is no drama king, so when he goes down, you know something is hurting, and you fear the worst,” said manager Tony La Russa, who, along with assistant trainer Barry Weinberg, rushed onto the field.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 11:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Good call

Don’t want him to pick up a sniffle on the flight back to St. Louis.

Mgr., Red Reporter

"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 17, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Chad at RLN

Says he won’t watch a single pitch of the WS since the Cards are in it.

I’ll watch. Hey, it’s baseball.

But I kinda wish both teams would lose. :-Þ

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 17, 2011 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

devils advocate

I disliked the dodgers immensely in the 70s/80s. I certainly watched the WS in 77,78, 81, and 88.

I don’t get boycotting a WS due to not liking a team. Seems childish and petty.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't care who you are


that’s some funny stuff, right there.

"Suck for Luck"? Forget that
2010 was "Schemin’ for Green and Faultin’ for Dalton."

by supergrover on Oct 18, 2011 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

And somehow, less racist

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Arredondo. They were shining there for you and me, for liberty, Arredondo.

by DTFH91 on Oct 18, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

"I came here to start wars and throw fastballs."

“Looks like I’m all out of fastballs”

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's only 'cause he's old

I bet he could totally throw 90 mph ten years ago.

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

you just rolled out of bed throwing punches, didn't you?

Not that I have anything negative to say about that, at all.

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatevs, brah

It feels so nice to be back to normal

by nycredsfan on Oct 17, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Whoa, it's Happy Nolan Ryan!

Some friends and I went to watch Game 1 of the ALCS at a bar, and we didn’t get sound until later in the game because the Capitals were playing. This was the game that was pretty significantly rain-delayed, so every time they panned to Ryan in the crowd he had a pained and worried expression on his face. Thus “Sad Nolan Ryan” became a thing.

by the finest muffins on Oct 17, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

better than Angry Nolan Ryan

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, but is pudge really "active" these days?

Individuality: Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else.

by joshuar9476 on Oct 17, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

ask yo mama!

/SelfFive

"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow

by jch24 on Oct 17, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

nice

Individuality: Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else.

by joshuar9476 on Oct 17, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

last year's playoffs

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 17, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Oct 17, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

the cubs have been to one more WS than the Reds?

I woulda lost dinero on that if I was a wagering man.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 17, 2011 12:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

But...season tickets!
Why doesn’t @A_Collie17 follow me? :( I have season tickets to your game :(

by Ram27 on Oct 17, 2011 9:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Because it's not Collie

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Oct 17, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't read Posnanski on the Cubs until now

and honestly…fucking Cubs fans. They confuse me:

He took the Cubs with him. Day after day — or night after night in Thailand, which is 12 hours ahead of Chicago — he watches the Cubs play on his computer. If you could find the little village where he lives — and you probably don’t want to bother, because Steve says it’s in the middle of nowhere — you would find a replica Wrigley Field scoreboard, a precise version of the Cubs marquee, and a marble tablet to commemorate Lee Elia’s rant about Cubs fans.* There’s also a gigantic concrete and steel Cubs baseball, the shrine of shrines, one that Hirschtick says will outlive him by 50 or 100 years so that archeologists will someday wonder what kind of strange tribe lived ther

"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."

by Cy Schourek on Oct 17, 2011 9:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Prefabricated semi-witty retort

So, if our Cards fans friends/relatives/neighbors are gleeful about how their NLCS championship means anything at all, we can point out that anything can happen in a short series. It won’t work.

When they wax rhapsodic about knowing how to win, and gutting it out, and being sprinkled with veterany goodness, just go ahead and agree. Yup, taking 4 of 6 PROVES you guys are better than the Brewers.

Then start to walk away. Putting on your best Columbo face (and trenchcoat, if ya got it), you turn back and say…. “Oh, one more thing, Mrs. Johnson. I guess that means that winning 9 of 15 against your Cardinals makes the Reds even better.”

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Oct 17, 2011 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

the finest cinematic masterpiece of all time

and it’s not even left-handed.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Oct 17, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

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