Red Reposter - Or more accurately, NL Central Reposter
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
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PrintBlog Red Machine gives Drew Stubbs a C- grade on the season
citing his increased strikeout rate, his inability to bunt, and his decreased power. Those are all fair criticisms (though the bunt thing is becoming one of my least favorite canards written about this team), but this seems just one more example of Stubbs getting the Adam Dunn Treatment. His strengths are presented with buts and his weaknesses with ands.
At the end of the day, Stubbs still rates as an above average baseball player (2.6 fWAR, 2.9 bWAR this season) and he will earn around the league minimum next season. Of course, like anyone else I would love to see Stubbarooski turn into Eric Davis. But he most likely won't, and that's still okay. The Good should never be considered the enemy of The Perfect.
Redleg Nation has a terrific arbitration primer
If you need a refresher on how the arb process works, click on through. The Reds have a few mildly interesting arb cases this winter, with Homer Bailey, Edinson Volquez, and Nick Masset headlining the list. If the Reds were to forego re-signing Francisco Cordero, would you rather Homer or Volquez be given a trial as the closer? Is neither a good idea?
NotGraphs has cobbled together some highlights from TBS' analysis of the NLCS
and presented them all together in a cute little video. The takeaway: "Obviously, being obvious is the most obvious way to express just how obvious the obvious is."
MLB is hiring a former Secret Service agent as their new security chief
Consider this little bit of seemingly unrelated and totally harmless Facebookery and all you have to do is connect the dots. We're through the looking glass here, people.
So yeah, as you can see it's pretty quiet on the Reds' news front. The rest of the division is making national headlines though, so here's a bit of what our SBN brothers (and black sheep cousins) are talking about:
Brew Crew Ball is crying into their collective breakfast beers this morning
and all because of Ron Roenicke and Mark Kotsay. Although Kotsay did hit a home run last night, he also missed two key balls in center field that both Nyjer Morgan and Carlos Gomez , both significantly better glove men, most likely would have had. Those hits led to the Cardinals four runs.
It seems Roenicke is the only man in the universe who still thinks Kotsay can play CF, and also the only man in the universe who can do anything about it. It's like some great Greek tragedy or something. Still, the Brewers are only down two games to one with Game Four coming up tonight.
While the Brewers may be playing out like a Greek tragedy
Viva El Birdos sees the Cardinals as a modern day tale of self-discovery and realization where the guy figures out in the end after chasing the shallow popular girl all year that the girl next door with the glasses and the pony tail who he had a faint friendsy crush on is actually a hot babe once you take off her glasses and unbutton her blouse a bit.
DanUpBaby had read the narrative of this season as the rise of the Young Birds, with Jon Jay and Jaime Garcia and Daniel Descalso and Allen Craig and David Freese and a bunch of other jerks. But it turns out this is the same old Cardinals team it ever was, led by grizzled veteran jerks like Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter, and Yadier Molina. It definitely has been a strange year for the Cards, but it seems they are hitting their stride at just the right time. Again, NLCS Game Four is tonight at 8:05.
Bleed Cubbie Blue is getting their sugars all up about Theo Epstein
Personally, I'm not as impressed with his body of work as others seem to be, but quite frankly just about anyone would be worth getting excited about after nearly 10 years of Jim Hendry. Also, the newz on tha streetz is that Ryne Sandberg is most likely going to take over as manager after Theo shitcans Mike Quade. Still, it will be a few years before the Cubs are cabable of fielding a team that can compete for the division. Epstein has a monumental task in front of him trying to fix that dysfunctional roster.
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I hate the damn Cardinals so damn much.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Oct 13, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
They are just a bunch of whiny fuckheads.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Oct 13, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
100% amen
I watched only the first inning of game 3, and I turned it off disgusted with the realization that putting Kotsay in CF had managed to lose the Brewers the game. After the 1st inning. God what a dumb choice.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
The Stubbs article was less constrictive than I anticipated.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Oct 13, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Ryne Sandberg
I saw him in August. He was managing the Phillies AAA team, the Lehigh Valley IronPigs.
I assume it was his idea to have relief pitcher Joe Savery listed on the roster as an infielder.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
There's a school of thought that, to better manage the local media, Epstein should keep Quade
and then can him in July when the team is 30-55. That way the disaster that will be next year’s team can be blamed on Quade.
I wonder how Sandberg would do. It’s rare for a star to come back and manage well, in any sport.
Also, I agree that Epstein is a tad overrated.
Like ken said yesterday, his drafting and player development is off the chain, but his free agent signings have been pretty meh. John Lackey, Daisuke, Carl Crawford, etc.
But his system has produced Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Lowrie, and a bunch of others I can’t think of right now.
What’s going to be interesting is to see what kind of staff he puts around himself in Chicago. Word is that Boston isn’t letting him take any of his FO staff with him. While FA signings are much more focused on the GM, drafting/development is much more of a team effort. If Theo can’t bring his scouting director and others from Boston, I guess we’ll get a chance to see if he’s a genius or if he just surrounded himself with smart people.
Also, I’m really looking forward to him signing Albert Pujols to a 10 year, 310 million dollar deal.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I want the Cardinals to sign him to a deal that big.
The Cardinals have over taken the Cubs for my most hated NL Central team.
You had me at meat tornado. ~ Ron Swanson
by BigBabyBruce on Oct 13, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
My perfect scenario is the Cubs and Cardinals engaging in a bidding war
over Pujols and then driving that price up so high that the loser has to go out and negotiate an overblown deal with Prince Fielder thus hamstringing both hated teams for the next 5 – 8 years!
Whaddya say, Baseball Gods (Cap Anson and Old Hoss Radbourn)? Can we make this happen!?!?
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Oct 13, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is fantastic
I think it just moved.
by poojols on Oct 13, 2011 12:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love homegrown
There’s a real possibility that the Reds will quite often, over the next couple years, trot out a lineup of Leake, Mesoracco, Votto, BP, Cozart, END, Hi-Z, Stubbs, and Bruce. That’s eight darfted-and-developed and a trade. Now, surely there’s some money somewhere for a FA.
by poojols on Oct 13, 2011 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
oooh! and in '13
After they let BP walk after playing his option year, Henry Canito Rodriguez takes over and it’s all homegrown.
by poojols on Oct 13, 2011 1:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like this
While FA signings are much more focused on the GM, drafting/development is much more of a team effort. If Theo can’t bring his scouting director and others from Boston,
Which is why the Reds have had great drafts since DanO assembled most of the current front office in 2004, even though he left years ago.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Krivsky hired Chris Buckley in '06
I think some GMs are much more hands on then others when it comes to the draft. O’Brien had a scouting background, so he was comfortable assuming more responsibility. Krivsky was less so, and even said that he’d essentially let Buckley run the draft.
Right, and I don't know how hands on Epstein is/was.
To me, that’ll be the big issue determining whether he turns that team around. You’ve mentioned before that the Cubs drafting and development has been shockingly bad the last 10 years. If he gets that rolling, the Cubs are going to be a force.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think the Cubs will be respectable next year
and be competing for division crowns annually starting in 2013. It really sucks.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
They won't be good next year.
They have holes at every OF position (Soriano is a hole), a hole at 3B, 1B, and meh players at 2B and C.
It’s going to take at least a couple years.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I politely disagree
Soriano is only a hole in terms of dollars, which isn’t a huge hindrance to the Cubs. Darwin Barney is a serviceable player. Soto is good, I don’t know why he counts as a hole. They can keep Peña if they want, or let LaHair take over at 1B, which would be something of a hole but not terrible.
And how the hell do they have a hole at 3B?? Or CF?
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Soriano is a hole in terms of production too.
He was roughly league average hitter this year and will only get worse. Unfortunately, the defense.
Darwin Barney sucks. He was a well below average hitter and is only a decent fielder.
I didn’t say Soto was a hole. I said he was meh. Which he is. Slightly below average hitter, decent defender. Meh.
Right now 1B is a hole that will require money to fix. They have the money, but the fact remains that right now it’s a hole.
Aramis Ramirez isn’t a guarantee to come back. And if he does, it’ll cost a lot, which could hinder signing a good 1B. My bad on Marlon Byrd, I thought he was a free agent. But add him to the Meh list. He’s got Stubbs’ offense with worse defense.
And we haven’t even gotten to the rotation, which is kind of a mess.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
i think i read somewhere that soriano's defense was more valuable this year than his offense
may have been joe posnanski’s article on bad long term contracts
He must've used Total Zone from BBRef. They thought his D was worth .7 wins, his O .6.
UZR actually thought his defense was a net positive this year too. I’ll be damned.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
i told you that earlier this season
Soriano isn’t the net negative stat geeks make him out to be.
But the contract is gawdawful
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Oct 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is the first result when I GIS'd "contradiction face"
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will be having tense agreement
and it made me sad.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is ironic
Since you are basing this off of defensive metrics, the ultimate “geeky” stat.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I'm surprised you stick up for Soriano
From what I’ve seen, he doesn’t hustle and sorely lacks baseball IQ. The anti-Rosales.
Also, no one ever said he was a net negative
Just that he sucks pretty bad and is a below average player at this point.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I'm sure someone has said Soriano was a net negative.
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
exactly
the Cubs don’t have a star player anywhere. Castro could become that guy but he isn’t yet.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Yeah, to expand on that.
Only 6 Cubs were “average” according to bWAR (worth at least 2 wins)
Ramirez, Fukudome, Castro, Pena, Garza, Marshall.
3 of those 6 could be off the team next year.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think the two-wins-for-average apllies to fWAR
not bWAR, which uses a different replacement level and different defensive inputs. And since bWAR is almost always less than fWAR for position players, I am certain that this is not a fair portrayal. 6 position players were average or better according to fWAR.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
To add to the Central theme, it's looking more and more like the Astros will be in the AL in 2013
The sale of the team is expected to close next month. With the 2012 schedule already out there can’t be any changes for next year, but 2013 should see the Astro’s switch and a possible expansion of the playoffs.
So we can get our whuppin’s in for just one more year.
Short term this sucks, but long term I'm cool with this
Under decent management, that organization has the potential for a big payroll and to be a powerhouse, probably second only to the Cubs in the NLC.
That won’t happen until 2014 or 2015 at the earliest, but I’m not terribly sad to see them go.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
yep, and they were the class of the Central from 1997-2005
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
so what's the scheduling gameplan if they go AL?
There’ll just always be an interleague game?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Or 2 teams with an off day
I’d actually really like to see interleague expanded/made less special. Rather than having a couple designated interleague parts of the schedule, just give each team a similar number of series but spread them out over the year.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
i'd really like to see interleague play go away.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
then get rid of divisions completely
and give the top 8 teams a playoff spot.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
pains me to agree with this
but I do
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Oct 15, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
opeartin on the notion that this is a serious talking point,
If this happened, there would have to be a decision about the DH, right? And is there a snowball’s chance that abolishing the DH could happen?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
i hate the dh
but it’s stupid for the leagues to operate under different sets of rules. if you step back & think about it, it’s astonishing that something like that could happen.
they need to either have it or not, but the rule should be the same throughout baseball
I'm thinking now
it’s too bad that there aren’t any real stylistic differences between teams anymore. I mean, sure the Mariners have the whole “defense first” thing, but they don’t get very far. It’s too bad that the top 3 teams in the NL Central that play each other all of the time all play the same type of ball. There’s no matchup fun like in the NBA or NFL.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
The league distinction is so much less important than it used to be
Interleague is basically an NFC-AFC matchup with a rule quirk. There isn’t much of a difference between us playing the Dodgers or the Angels.
Yeah, this is what I think
A huge deal is made about AL pitchers hitting, but it seems like the pitchers don’t mind.
The bigger deal in my mind is the inherent advantage that AL home teams have because most NL teams don’t have a bench player that can hit like the AL team’s DH.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
a huge deal is also made from the players association
they believe the DH gives more big contracts to older players who still have a bat but can’t field.
It is amazing that what may be the strongest union in the country protects mostly millionaires…
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
x
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Oct 13, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If I did the math right, it would be less inter league games.
48 less, I think
by Eastwindquinn on Oct 13, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That, or you perfectly stagger the offdays
which sounds hard to do.
It would kinda stink to play an interleague game in late September if you’re fighting for a playoff spot, but otherwise I don’t have a big problem with the constant interleague play.
On Stubbs
Stubbs had an okay year, and center field is far down on the list of things to replace. But he is very talented and capable of much more, than a .320 OBP and a sub .400 slugging percentage. Also his speed says he should be a premier fielder, but fangraphs says otherwise.
Also this year was a huge step backwards for Stubbs, he was quite good in 2010 and quite mediocre this year.
He really needs to up his obp by about 20 points and get his slugging percentage over .400 for me to really be pleased with him.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
his slugged .444 in 2010
I don’t think it is that crazy to expect him to slug over .400.
It probably is asking a lot for him to have an OBP over .340 though.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
On the other hand
Total Zone thinks he is an awfully good fielder – 10 runs above average this year, and 39 above average in less than 3 seasons in the majors.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
leage average OBP this year was .310, I think.
So he had an above average OBP.
I can’t disagree with what Scrabbles said; he may not end up being the next Eric Davis. OK. That’s fine. If he can stay on the field (which Eric della Rojo never could) and play great D, he’s a contributor. He isn’t the problem with the team.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Oh, and this
Also his speed says he should be a premier fielder
Deion Sanders was much faster than Stubbs.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
By WAR, Stubbs was exactly average for a CF
He finished tied for 10th among the 22 CFs with 400+ PAs. Not a great year, but we had much bigger problems. Strikeouts continue to hurt feelings.
is it just not OK to criticize Bronson and nobody told RR?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
I should probably flesh this out
if you’re looking for reasons the Reds weren’t much good this year, and you’re looking at Stubbs’ strikeouts instead of Arroyo’s home runs, what the hell is wrong with you?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
bronson pitched & gave up homeruns once every 5 or so games
stubbs struck out pretty much daily
by 'tHan on Oct 13, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
And sometimes Stubbs made a great catch, stole a base or two, or hit an XBH
Bronson avoided walks pretty good….mostly because guys were crushing his strikes.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
stubbs let a lot more balls bounce in front of him than he made a great catch on
i thought rr didn’t like stolen bases?
Apparently RR doesn't like Stubbs.
And yeah, most defenders let in more bloop hits than they make spectacular catches on. But there weren’t more than 4 or 5 balls all year that fell in that he could’ve reasonably been expected to dive for.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
but with SBNation's commenting system,
all comments are justified.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Oct 13, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
x
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 14, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i know
i can’t understand why people don’t like bronson!
i heard a story about the nasty hook that made me like him a lot!
You got what you deserved for buying JTM.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Oct 13, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
actually, i never ate the burgers
and i don’t think i’ve ever listened to the cd.
in hindsight, it probably wasn’t a great purchase
I think Bronson would make a great tour guide at the Creation Museum
or some other team’s #5 starter
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
by Madville on Oct 13, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like Stubbs
but I think for whatever reasons he took a step backward this year.
Hopefully he will be more like 2010 Stubbs than 2011 Stubbs.
Strikeouts don’t really bother me anymore than other outs.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Strikeouts don't bother me with sluggers
but if your offense is predicated on contact, you can’t be striking out like Stubbs is. Ks are an OK tradeoff for strong contact. With Stubbs, the problem is there’s no tradeoff, just Ks.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I wonder if Tiger fans will sour on Austin Jackson after a while
He is younger than Stubbs (and therefore may have more room to grow), but watching him play it is amazing how Stubbsian the guy is. He can run and field and does an OK job getting on base, but you watch that long swing and all those K’s and it just drives you batty.
I have no idea if Stubbs or players like him can fix the strikeout problem without causing just as many problems as they solve. I am not an expert on hitting (as anyone who saw me attempt to play wiffle ball this summer can attest to) and it is possible that Drew cuts down on his K’s and winds up a worse hitter in the bargain. But it would be nice to see some obvious attempt.
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 14, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a false distinction
Not only in singling out Ks vs. other outs, but in comparing the influence of pitchers to position players.
Arroyo faced 855 batters in 2011, while Stubbs cames to the plate 681 times. Bronson may have pitched every five days, but he influences far more at bats and his influence in any game (even on a WPA basis) was likely to be much greater than Stubbs’.
The magnitude of his impact this year is reflected in the fact that he put up a negative Fangraphs and BRef WAR – compared to Stubbs’ at roughly league average for his position.
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is,
Arroyo can (and often did) singlehandedly take his team out of games. A single hitter doesn’t really have that ability.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
that would be about 150 home runs.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Oct 13, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
well, it'd kill their pythag, for one.
but I’m not sure what you’re arguing, to be honest. That Arroyo’s suckitude shouldn’t be held as a bar to compare Stubbs?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
who cares about pythag?
it doesn’t matter & it’s not real. win/loss record is real.
i’m not really arguing anything.
Only if he was approaching 200 IP
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Oct 13, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
He's like the Brett Favre of football!
Just if Favre had Eric Kramer’s arm.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Or if Arroyo was an overrated, self absorbed prick
Actually, that part might still work.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Pay me $12M and I'll go to GABP and throw 80-120 pitches to big league hitters once every 5 days
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
settle down
or you’re going to have to change your name to gandhisarian22
by 'tHan on Oct 13, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I'm not sure what you mean exactly
But Arroyo’s leverage over games is pretty hige when he pitches because he’s involved in every defensive play, where Stubbs – when he starts – would be involved in a play maybe once per full inning (5 PAs, X amount of chances in the field). And Bronson ended up being involved in a lot more plate appearances this season.
WAR is inexact, but I think the spread between them is enough to conclude that Bronson deprived the Reds of more wins this season than Stubbs did. He just happened to make the most of only playing once every 5 games.
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
"hige" is a perfectly correct alternate spelling of "huge"
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
theoretical wins & theoretical losses
bronson only actually started 32 games this year. the reds won 15 of those games.
that’s almost .500 baseball, which is about what they played over the course of the season
yeah, its basically grades out to a 79-83 record
which is, I think we agree, a bad thing.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
/matH'd?
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
by Cy Schourek on Oct 13, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'm not talking about theoretical wins though
You’re using the wrong level of analysis. Wins are a team statistic, while the original point was Stubbs v. Arroyo. Comparing them at the team win level introduces the performances of all the other players on the team in those games.
The team may have won some of those games despite Arroyo’s performance. They might even have won some of those games with the help of a good game by Stubbs. The only way to compare the two players is to look at their individual contributions. And it’s tough for me to see a way that Arroyo helped the Reds win more than Stubbs.
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Baba booey, baba booey, Drew Stubbs is the King of All Media
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oof.
Those season reviews at Blog Red Machine are…something.
1st base is an A- because (1) of Votto’s September and (2) because he didn’t add in Cairo’s contribution, like in ‘10 (of course, he also adds that he’s grading harder than last year, and he gave 1st an A last year, which would make 3 reasons even though he said there were two…).
2nd is an A- because Phillips is talking about his contract in the press.
As for Stubbs, C- would mean “below average”, wouldn’t it? Is he really making the claim that the Reds in ‘11 were below average in CF? Stubbs’ offense was below league average (though Matt Kemp really screwed up the curve), but his defense makes up all of that and more – as Charlie stated he was 2.5-3 wins above replacement, which is a solid starter.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Actually I'd give Stubbs a D given the step back he took from 2010
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
If the Reds had some "exciting" no talent ass clown playing everyday CF like Sappelt, I would give him a B for the numbers Stubbs put up
but I am grading Stubbs against Stubbs, and we all know that Stubbs ability is far greater than his 2011 numbers.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Far greater is pushing it
but I see where you are coming from
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Curious, is this how you grade your students?
Against themselves, rather than against their classmates?
Pass or Fail.
Like the silver standard and the 9-9-9 tax…its the only basis upon which players should be graded. Just ask Barry Larkin.
Scott Roland should retire tomorrow.
turn that upside and you are the devil!
Bachman’d
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Oh, indeed.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Oct 13, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Technically you shouldn't be grading them against their classmates either
But rather against some pre-established standard.
But if I have to choose, I’m grading them against themselves, and the progress (or lack thereof) they make.
Of course, there’s also a big difference between education and professional sports.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Yeah, I don't actually have grading power
And if I did grading a kid against himself would only be an issue if his grade is border line. If he obviously really worked hard I would bump him up to the higher grade, if he slacked off he would get the lower grade.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
I don't think you actually believe this
because, for example, you’d give Albert Pujols an F for this year. Grading against the player is part of it perhaps, but there is clearly an established baseline that is far more important.
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
Grading a kid against himself doesn't seem right to me
A college admissions officer isn’t going to know the difference between a scrappy but inferior A- against an underachieving B.
But if you have a student who has an 89.3 and the cutoff for an A is 89.5
who would you be more willing to bump up? The kid who worked really hard turned in all his work on time, did the extra credit, and came to you for help or the the kid who is really smart but slacked off some didn’t turn in a couple of assignments which is why he is just below the cutoff for an A?
And no it wouldn’t be far to give one kid an A and another a B- for basically the same quality of work on the same assignment for the same class.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Your last point is what I'm getting at
I have no problem with using effort as a tiebreaker, but the quality of the work should be the overriding determinant.
I think Stubbs is a solid B player. Not a star, but he’s above average. Maybe a B+ in 2010 and a B/B- in 2011, but a C- is a punitive grade. He’s not Rick Ankiel.
When I was in school a 90% was a B
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Grades strike me in retrospect as being pretty useless.
There’s 100 points, and it’s an average of all your assignments, tests, and maybe ‘participation’ which are weighted in whatever way your teacher sees fit. If you get stuff wrong you maybe lose points, but how many is totally up to the individual teacher, and sometimes teachers curve, or they offer extra credit so no one’s parents complains to them. After all that, you get an A or a B or a C, which maybe cuts off at 92, or 90, or 94, and if you get 93 points, you get 4 points on your GPA for some reason, and if you get 91, you get 3 points on your GPA. But if you take advanced classes, everything gets bumped up a point, but maybe your school has advanced choir, and not advanced band, or drama.
In conclusion, high school: why?
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
by andromache on Oct 13, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I had to go to summer school between my junior and senior year of high school
For AP English. Point made, teacher.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
I hope you don't take this the wrong way
But I read this whole post and just assumed it was a Yossarian post. I had to come back and see it was you.
The correct grammar, spelling, and usage should’ve tipped me off.
And FWIW, I mostly agree in theory, except in reality human beings are competitive creatures who like specific, measurable standards for comparison. Grades/GPA was inevitable.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I actually was trying to self-parody a little.
But the fact that that reminds you of yossarian just raises more questions.
Ok, yes, I get why we have grades/gpa, I just wish they made more sense.
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
I think, for what they are, they make enough sense
The problem is the standardization of education. (I’ll try to keep this short)
In other words, somewhere along the way someone decided every kid should learn basically the same stuff, in the same order, everywhere in the country. That might work in Finland, where everyone is ethnically, culturally, and otherwise basically the same, but it doesn’t work here.
GPA is just another function of that. I’ll get made fun of this, but why is Advanced Algebra a required class but music isn’t? How many people use advanced algebra more on a daily basis than they engage with music? And how many people say they wish they had studied more algebra in HS? Conversely, how many people say they wish they could play an instrument?
It’s silly.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
And I'd probably spend more time practicing music instead of engaging in pointless arguments on the internet.
Damn you advanced algebra!
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Without math, music would be impossible
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
It's probably too advanced a theory for you, what with you being a skirt and all
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Oct 13, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A skirt steak, you mean!
HEEEEEEYYYY-OOOOOOOO
/idontgetiteither
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
Does something bad happen when you quote a weird al lyric?
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
There's nothing good about skirt steak
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
oooohhhhhh
I was talking about a completely different kind of skirt steak. Carry on.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Oct 13, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your mom plays a mean skin flute
#SickerBurn
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Hahaha.
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
by andromache on Oct 13, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
maybe they were ethnic majorities?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Oct 15, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Same.
I’ve had to constantly adjust my grading scale downwards from what I grew up with.
When I was in HS, it took a 99 or 100% for an A+. In my current district, the cutoff is 95, and 90 for an A.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Also, there are no 'minuses' in my school's grading.
#IHateAmerica
It feels so nice to be back to normal
If you hate America so much why don't you just move to China, you commie?
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
They don't get minuses.
/Stereotyping’d
by Cuetotally Amazing on Oct 13, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been told by a few teachers (which I am not) that the cutoff doesn't really matter
that for the most part if the system is 93 for an A, 85 for a B, 77 for C, 70 for a D (or whatever) it really doesn’t matter because they will adjust their grades accordingly so the numbers of A, B, C, D, and F students won’t really change.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Oh, ken. That's funny. College Admissions counselors don't pay attention to GPA
mainly for the very reason you mentioned. I don’t know if a 4.0 from School A is remotely the same as a 4.0 from school B.
In order of importance to colleges, it typically goes
SAT scores, Essays, Extra Curricular activities.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Now having said that,
I personally really only grade kids against themselves in middle school where grades don’t matter.
In HS I grade against a set standard. But the overall point stands. My set standard may be way, way harder or easier than an equivalent teacher in another district.
I know, for example, that getting an A in my Queens HS was mostly a matter of showing up at least 85% of the time. Much different standards out here in suburbia.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
When I was in middle school, my music teacher gave me a "C" because I wasn't singing in my "high voice"
Problem was, I didn’t have a fucking “high voice”. I hit puberty and my voice dropped big time. To this day, I sound like Patrick Starfish from Spongebob. There was no way in hell I was going to sing fucking alto, but she was convinced that I was doing it on purpose. I still hold a grudge against that asshole.
So, in short, music teachers suck.
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 14, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
In my limited experience as a work-study clerk in an admissions office,
it went SAT, grades (accounting for strength of school), extra curriculars, essays. The admissions officers might not know everything about School A versus B, but they know which ones are urban, private, suburban, rural, etc. And they often have a record of how kids from School A or B did at their school.
Don't know how long ago that was
but my understanding is that GPA, while still relevant, is much less important than it used to be.
Number of AP classes/tests taken matters a lot, as do the SAT scores. Schools have moved more towards essays/extra curriculars as a way to differentiate students, because for good schools, everyone has a good GPA and SAT score, and they all start to look the same after a while.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I wasn't implying you were old :-)
Just that things have changed a lot in the last decade.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
To expound
I was applying for colleges in ’97, and the processes these kids go through is so much different. Part of it is stupid LI/NYC pressure and perceived expectations that parents put on them, but the process has changed.
The SAT adding the essay component was one thing, and the explosion of AP tests is another.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Yeah, I think the NY area pressure is a different beast
I went to HS in Wisconsin. Nobody took Kaplan and only a real spaz would take the SAT/ACT more than once. When I started talking to all these kids from north Jersey in college, I realized how easy I had it.
The funniest part about it, to me
Is that most of these kids end up going to a mid-tier school like Queens College or Hofstra, and becoming accountants at HR Block or something.
I’m sure they are glad they ruined their HS experience for that.
It feels so nice to be back to normal
I think people become teachers to satisfy their need to judge others
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
by jch24 on Oct 13, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So... I should go into teaching...
Thanks for the career advice, jch!
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
Not only that, but to be held to no standards themselves while being able to judge others.
It’s great!
It feels so nice to be back to normal
Don't forget the union perks
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Beats several consecutive years without a raise at all
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 14, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
unionized New York state employees
got several years without a raise. The new contract signed by the largest union includes mandatory unpaid furloughs, so they signed a contract with a pay cut.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Similar thing happened in Ohio in 2009
the last few months my dad was a parole officer before retirement, he had a pretty steep pay cut.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
for his use of no talent ass clown?
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Oct 15, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
but he's assuming Stubbs can be good
I think 2011 was the true Stubbs
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Oct 16, 2011 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to be rude
but since I can get away with it on the internet – that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
First, no sane person can say they’d expect Stubbs to be the player he was last year. His defensive WAR was likely inflated by SSS (looking at the numbers, he’s likely closer to the “very good” fielder he was in ’09 and ’11 than to the “3rd best defender at any position in all baseball” he was in ’10); he also showed alot more power last year than people had a right to expect.
Second, to grade the position below average because the player wasn’t as good as you want him to be would mean, by extension, that you’d have to give Votto a C because he was only as good as you want him to be, and Bruce a D because the gap from expectations to performance is even greater.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
that last paragraph pretty much describes the Reds fanbase.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
Yes my grades are inconsistent
Votto gets an A because he was awesome last year and awesome this year, he has reached his potential.
Bruce was fine this year and may have reached his potential.
But Stubbs this year was nowhere close to 2010 or his minor league numbers. I find that to be troubling, and I think given his speed, power, and arm he could and should be a 3.5-5.0 WAR player on a regular bases.
M
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Again
Just because you think he should be a 4 WAR player doesn’t mean he is.
As for Burce, he went from 5.4 to 3.3 fWAR and from 4.6 to 1.2 bWAR – we’ve been sold since day one that he was the perrenial MVP candidate, not Votto. Now you’re saying that’s OK and he “may have reached his potential” even though he’s only as good (by WAR) as a guy who had a tough time taking Willie F. Taveras’s job?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Bruce is a different animal
He did fall off this year from last year.
His stat line last year was .281/.353/.493
This year .256/.341/.474.
His hitting wasn’t that far off this year from last year, and further more his BABIP last year was .334 and this year .297, so he was either lucky last year or unlucky this year or a bit of both. But ISO was .212 last year and .217 this year. Also his line drive rate feel off from over 20% to 16.8% But the biggest difference between 2010 and 2011 which probably does account for some of the drop in BABIP.
But the fall in Bruce’s WAR is mostly accounted for in his defense last year he had a UZR of 19.8 this year -.8. There are rumors that he came into camp out of shape, if that is why his defense feel off give Bruce a D for the season, if it was just a flukey SSS of one year defensive stats that I don’t know what to say about Bruce.
The true place were Bruce feel off was defense,
According to Fangraphs Stubbs played mediocre defense in 2010 and 2011.
Stubbs also noticeably feel off in almost every offensive category.
2010 Slash Line: .255/.329/.444
2011 Slash line: .243/.321/.364
Interestingly enough he had lower BA and AVG in 2011 despite a higher BABIP, in 2010 it was .330 in 2011 it was .343.
His Isolated power in 2011 was .121 compared to .189 in 2010.
I see no reason why it is unreasonable for me to be disappointed when a player has a strong Rookie campaign like Stubbs and falls off in his sophomore year.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
OK.
Again, if you’re disappointed that Stubbs didn’t repeat ‘10, why not Bruce? Bruce was supposed to be the savior of the franchise; Stubbs was supposed to be a league-average player. If you take each player in a vacuum, last year really should have been the stepping-off point for Bruce (from what we were lead to believe) and close to the highlight of Stubbs’.
This is what ZiPS projected for both:
Player B PO Age BA OBP SLG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OPS+
Jay Bruce L RF 24 .269 .340 .495 154 539 86 145 25 5 29 85 59 139 7 5 123
Drew Stubbs R CF 26 .247 .321 .396 152 563 86 139 26 5 16 66 59 175 33 9 92
Bruce’s defensive projection in RF was “excellent”, while Stubbs’ in CF was projected “fair”.
Compare that to reality – both missed their hitting projections by just a bit (Bruce’s OPS+ was 97% of the projection, 93% for Stubbs); however, Bruce’s actual defense was poor while Stubbs’ was somewhere between “fair” and “very good”, depending on which defensive system you use. Further, Stubbs’ baserunning was a small bit better than his projection (40 SB, 10 CS) while Bruce’s was a small bit worse (8, 7).
So two guys – “the next Larry Walker” and “the guy who’s not much better than Willie Taveras” – are now equally good (within the admittedly large error bars of both defense and WAR), and the former is “fine and may have reached his potential” while with the latter you “see no reason why it is unreasonable for me to be disappointed.”
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Oct 13, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Justin just got pwned
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
by -ManBearPig on Oct 13, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I graded him against himself
He should know better.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Oct 13, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
well graded against himself
this isn’t even top 50 in the stupidest things he’s ever said
by 'tHan on Oct 13, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I just got a phone call, text, and e-mail from my school
testing the emergency system. That was annoying, and will be ignored in the future. Great job, fellas.
"You said 'walks' twice."
"I like walks."
My school required us to sign up
I just got a test call and text, and I don’t even work there anymore
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
you can call your cell phone company and block the number.
My roommate did that when I signed him up to received local news, weather, and sports texts from a Denver TV station. He was getting texts at 2AM about weather in Colorado Springs and high school softball scores.
He totally deserved it as well.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
by Yossarian22 on Oct 14, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
As if Americans weren't fat enough already,
you can now dip anything from the Golden Corral buffet into molten chocolate!
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
by -ManBearPig on Oct 13, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Looks like I'm gonna get the runs tonight!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
big whoop, I've been doing that for years
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
Since when is "Your Penis" part of the GC buffet?
It feels so nice to be back to normal
by nycredsfan on Oct 13, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If that were true, you'd have to.....
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Oct 13, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What's a good breakfast beer?
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 3:03 PM EDT reply actions
Scrambled eggs is not a good breakfast beer
Neither is shrimp cocktail.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
whatever's in the fridge
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
Stouts are excellent breakfast beers
Especially chocolate stouts.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The byline feature is surprisingly useful sometimes
Mgr., Red Reporter
"Every office I've been in, there has been a guy with weird scars that he needs to explain to you—'it was one of those old Xerox machines, with a lot of razors in it'... or a pale person with a novel of supernatural erotica that keeps getting left on the printer. Major League lineups need those guys, too." - David Roth
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 13, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'mma guess you'd be the man to ask
What’s a good stout to get in cans/bottles? I’ve often found a marked difference between the quality from the tap and from the can/bottle. Is this unavoidable or is there something worth it out there?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you saying you prefer them on tap, and want to find a good one in bottles?
I’m not a big stout guy, but as far as what is available around these parts, you really can’t go wrong with any of the Michigan beers. There is something about the water chemistry in Michigan that makes them able to produce outstanding dark beers. Both Kalamazoo stout (6%ABV) and Expedition stout (12%) from Bell’s are exceptional. Breakfast Stout from Founders is also great. Dark Horse brewery makes a series of 4 different stouts (cleverly named One Oatmeal stout, Two Cream Stout, Three Blueberry stout and Four smoked stout) that are all outstanding in their own right. I’m also partial to Goose Island’s Bourbon Barrel stout, although that is more difficult to acquire. Founders Porter is also incredible and is more like a stout than a porter if you ask me.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
I'm not sure I totally understand the difference between a stout and a porter.
Is there a mod so powerful he can ban himself?
the differences have gotten slimmer over time
Porter was originally a blend of old stout and fresh ale that was served to the working class porters in England. I would say that a porter would have a lighter mouthfeel and color than a stout, but categories like robust porter and Baltic/Imperial porters are pretty much stouts. These days, brown ales are pretty much porters and porters are pretty much stouts and stouts are pretty much stronger stouts.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
A cold one
Warm beer in the morning SUCKS.
"Wait, you think I'm being mean to the pretend orangutan?" -- battlekow
a good bock or stout
or even perhaps any of the fall or winter seasonals
The ends justify the means
by Highlifeman21 on Oct 15, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The Sawx
have named the right honorable gentleman Ben Cherington MP (Warwick and Leamington) as their new GM.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 13, 2011 3:31 PM EDT reply actions
Oh, Fya
I just looked at his Twitter page to see if he’d had any recent posts on Coco and found this gem:
RT @PDVenturaSr think Reds should follow Moneyball type plan to succeed?//find zito, mulder, Hudson? Yes. Draft like the A’s in ‘02? No.
I get very tired of this argument. Just because Jeremy Brown, the 35th overall pick, didn’t work out, doesn’t mean the draft was a bust. Nick Swisher and Joe Blanton worked out much better than a lot of other 1st rounders that year.
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
much better than Chris Gruler value
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
by -ManBearPig on Oct 13, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The truth is out there
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
But I don't think the A's did that much better in the 2002 draft than other teams did.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Right, but the narrative of Moneyball bashers
is that the A’s had a bad draft in 2002 (which they didn’t) and that the fact that they never won a WS makes it all for naught (which is bullshit).
Let a man come in and do the Popcorn.
The A's had a fine draft in 2002
but I do think that that draft showed that luck is probably the biggest contributor to a good or bad draft, i mean yes it helps to make smart decisions, but I think except for a few players who are either really polished like Mike Leake, or just obscenely talented like Strausberg, the difference between High School/College and MLB is so great the smartest baseball minds can have the best information and still make a terrible draft, while you could throw darts at a dart board and have a good draft.
The World Series thing is really stupid, the Atlanta Braves proved that. Almost every year those teams had 3 or 4 not good, not passable, not above average, but great and dominant starting pitchers, and they only won one world series between 1991 and 2005. I can’t really think of a better recipe for post season success than being able to run an ace out almost every playoff game.
"Life is such a vapid world pool of nothing"-Eddie Pepitone
Yea
I can’t really think of a better recipe for post season success than being able to run an ace out almost every playoff game.
Because that worked so well for the 90’s Braves, early ‘00 A’s, and current Phillies.
I think the exact opposite is true – teams like that make it easy to win a gazillion games during the season, but in the post-season every pitcher you face is probably pretty good, so you need to be able to score runs, too.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Which would have been insightful
…if their pitching was better than what the Phillies ran out in last year’s playoffs.
Heck, neither their top 3 nor top 4 starters were any better last year than Texas’ (by ERA+).
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I don't think so
I think the real problem is that Lewis made the A’s come off as soooo much smarter than everyone else, yet in the end they weren’t. If the tone of the book had been different I don’t think you’d see nearly the scout/stat divide (every decent team has used both for years), nor do I think you’d have nearly the ’02 draft bashing.
FWIW, Beane was apparently appalled when he was given a draft of the book.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
In the end, they still won a lot of games with a relatively low payroll
I’d say they were smarter, if not by as much as Beane Lewis said.
I think they were a lot smarter than everyone else
But everyone else smartened up pretty quick. The problem is that they weren’t doing anything anyone else couldn’t do, so once they had success other teams bought into the concepts and their advantage disappeared.
Molecular gastronomy can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 14, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
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