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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Aroldis Chapman: 'Pen Pal

Dear AROLDIS, What is life like in the bullpen? Your new friend, Red Reporter

For those of us with hopes that Aroldis Chapman will develop into the next Randy Johnson, this news was not entirely welcome: "The plans are to keep Chapman in the bullpen right now. We'll take a long look at Dontrelle Willis also." Given the talk from both Dusty and Walt this offseason, it seems pretty unlikely that Chapman's March performance will have enough weight to Spring-board him over Travis Wood or Mike Leake and into the rotation, nor give the Reds cause to put Chapman in AAA (potentially adding Willis to the currently-full 40-man to do so).

While Chapman may be less prepared to enter the rotation right now than a kid who not too long a go ate a slightly larger meal than usual is for the Tilt-a-Whirl (it's Bad Analogy Week on Red Reporter), the question remains as to whether it's good practice to stall his development as a starter. So, perhaps against my better judgment, I wanted to return to the issue: Is this a good idea?

The team seems at least partly motivated to keep Chapman in the 'pen by the fact that they've lost Arthur Rhodes to free agency. And they're surely aware of Cordero's decline in effectiveness. Without Chapman, it still shapes up to be a respectable bullpen, but without a lights-out Fire Man - depending on whatcha think of Nick Massett. Setting aside the ability of Chapman to get fans through turnstiles (not a negligible consideration, but debatable for a reliever) the more pertinent question is not whether Chapman would be the best reliever in the 'pen (probably) or throw the hardest (scoreboard), but how much better he would be than the available replacement. The Reds have some measure of faith in Chapman as a critical piece to defend the division title, grabbing a marginal win or two.

Star-divide

We can stack up Chapman with his possible replacements, assuming a supporting cast of Cordero, Massett, Ondrusek, Bray, Arredondo and Jared Burton. With little chance of an additional signing or trade, this is a pretty reasonable talent pool to represent the other six spots. Zips and other projection systems treat Aroldis Chapman like a spot starter, so it's hard to get a handle on his outlook - on top of the fact that relief pitching is especially difficult to project in the first place.

Let's see if making numbers up gets us anywhere:

Pitcher 2010 WAR 2011 projection that I made up Chapman Differential (ChDiff)
Aroldis Chapman 0.7 (13.1 IP) 2.2 WAR --
Dontrelle Willis -0.1 (65.2 IP) 0.3 WAR -1.9 WAR
Jordan Smith -0.2 (42.1 IP) 0.1 WAR -2.1 WAR
Matt Maloney 0.2 WAR (9.0 IP) 0.8 WAR - 1.4 WAR

 

Unscientific, but I would wager that most projection systems give Chapman minimum of a roughly 1 WAR advantage on other in-house relievers over a full season. The Reds can come up with better-than-replacement relievers in his stead, but the very best relievers the Reds have at their disposal are going to be in the bullpen regardless. Chapman's presence also has an effect on the roles of other relievers, potentially allowing them to be used more appropriately, improving the bullpen as a whole. Further, it's worth remembering that whatever wins Chapman could be more valuable in as much as they are more likely to be decisive in whether the Reds make it to the postseason in 2011.

The question, then, is this: Does netting at least one win next season, possibly even two, justify postponing Chapman's development as a starter for a season? To answer this question, we have to know what is foregone by not sending the Cubandolero to Louisville to work it out. It's possible Chapman could spend part of a season in AAA this year and add value to the rotation at a level equal to or great to what he brings to the bullpen. It's difficult to say how likely this scenario is - it probably involves injuries or sub-par performance from other starters - but the Reds are writing off this possibility by keeping Chapman in relief all season.

I don't pretend to know what kind of effect the starter-relief-starter shuffle has on pitchers, but I imagine it's case-specific and has something to do with "makeup." On the Yankees alone (where all good player comps begin), there's the Phil Hughes examples and then there''s Joba Chamberlin. We can assume it's neutral or slightly negative on Chapman's development. But more importantly, that development is set back by a season.

While the effect on future performance is hard to peg, there are implications to the Reds's decision farther down the road. It's hard to predict when he'd pop up again in the majors if he were to begin next season in the Bats' rotation, but if the Reds have Chapman locked in as a reliever for 2011, Opening Day 2012 would be the very earliest. It's a reasonable to estimate that Chapman in Relief sets Chapman the Starter's ETA back by about one year. It's also entirely possible that Chapman becomes a better starter after spending a year as a reliever, though maybe he gets more "prime years" into his career with the Reds if start him earlier. If you think he's destined to become a starter, I would put more weight on the latter argument, though an extra year of Chapman firing on all cylinders comes at a cost in arbitration.

By way of example, instead of starting July 2011, he comes up July 2012. The Reds get up to a season less of Chapman in a starting role over the life of his contract. A lot of factors influence when Chapman would be called up in our two parallel realities, not the least of which is whether one of the current starters is traded over the next year and a half. It's a leap to assume he would spend the same amount of time in the minors after a full year of relieving as he would by heading down to start this season, but if we assume the benefits of facing big league hitters vs. stretching out in the minors are a wash, then Chapman's total service time (and arbitration born-on date) isn't affected significantly by this decision.

(It's just too fraught to even guess at the answers to some of these counterfactuals, but you would have to assume that no matter what, the Reds would try to avoid landing above the Super Two cutoff with his service time, which would make Chapman arbitration eligible after 2013. Optioning Chapman to the minors to minors not only allows him to hone his craft as a starter, it also allows the Reds to avoid paying $2M on top of arbitration in 2013 as per Chapman's weird contract.)For the sake of pruning the possibility tree, assume an equivalent stint in the minors would happen either way.)

One potential additional benefit to making Chapman a reliever this year is how it may affect his arbitration case. Replacing a year of relief with up to a year of starting could be a considerable savings, especially considering Chapman probably won't rack up many saves in 2011. Both in their first year of arbitration, Joba settled for $1.3M less than Phil Hughes this offseason - where Phil started 14 more games over the same stretch. This is an imperfect comparison, but If you spot Chapman at least a half starts, his value would seem to be greater.

The ultimate difference is whether you think those found starts will be defined by struggling to adjust or by gradual improvement. When compared to his performance as a lights-out reliever, that would make the difference in an arb award - and that's the point of departure for the whole debate.

Costs and Benefits:

I think the Reds stand to gain the following by putting Chapman in the 'pen for all of 2011:

  • A maximum of 2 Wins Above Replacement in 2011
  • Possible arbitration discount in Chapman's first year

At the cost of:

  • Postponing Chapman's emergence as a starter by approximately one year
  • Up to one less year of Chapman (current contract) under team control as a starting pitcher
  • Opportunity for Chapman to provide excess value to rotation as early as Late 2011
  • Possible (though debatable) negative effect of one year of relief on future ability to start

Do the Reds get a bargain here or is the price for Chapman the 2011 Reliever too dear? It's a difficult decision to map, but I think it primarily turns on how important Chapman is to helping the Reds repeat a Central Division crown. Potentially sacrificing a future prime year of Chapman as a starter is difficult to evaluate, especially not knowing if the team's success will be sustainable or what Chapman's true development curve as a starter will be.

The Reds have made a defensible decision, but given Chapman's ceiling as an historically good pitcher in his prime, I would probably take the trade-off of Matt Maloney (with long-relief action) in 2011 over the above.

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Honestly, I can't picture them keeping all of these pitchers they have.

Too many, they have to deal some out at some point. That’s where Chapman comes in. He’s a reliever—at the moment anyway—but I don’t expect them to hold firm on that the entire year.

by Doc Scratch on Jan 26, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions  

i agree

Personally, I’d rather he start in AAA in 2011, and stay as a SP. Find out if the improvement he made at the end of last year was an overall approach improvement or simply a byproduct of pitching from the ’pen.

Keep him as a starter to find out whether he projects better than he did in a SSS last year. Depending upon his performance, the Reds will then know how to use the money they save by not having coco in 2012: if chappy can start, trade another sp for a SS or LF and find a new closer, and if he can’t start put him at closer and use the spare cash to sign a SS or lf.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 26, 2011 12:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nobody seems to understand

That there’s no way in hell Chapman spends a minute more in Louisville, regardless of what his role is gonna be.

When you call up a guy like that, you call him up for good unless he stinks up the joint.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 26, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

/DannyGraves'd

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Did Graves go to AAA to work as a starter? I can't remember.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Graves was moved to the rotation in September of 2002

he made a few starts, and spent the off season preparing to start in 2003.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks, I really couldn't remember

I’d like to avoid a similar shit sandwich with Chappie if possible.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

how does Graves=Chapman?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Never said he did

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

"I'd like to avoid a similar shit sandwhich with Chappie"

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

shit sandwich being the situation, not the player

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

But the players make it a different situation

Graves was 29 years old when he moved to the rotation in 2003.

Also prior to being transformed to a starter at the end of 2002 Graves had started 3 professional baseball games. The Reds nor Indians did not groom Graves to start.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

It's entirely possible that he doesn't

though it doesn’t really affect evaluating this decision much either way. He spends a year in the bullpen or he doesn’t. But aside from needing to work on the fundamentals of starting, there’s also a financial incentive.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the financial incentive is a paper tiger (bad analogy week...)

If he spends a full year in the pen an builds up super two status the amount he would get in arbitration will be much less because he is a reliever. So I don’t think that will motivate the team to send him to AAA to stretch him out as a starter and curtail his service time.

Also, the example I’m concern about is Eric Gagne. Turning him into closer initially paid off as he was perhaps the most dominant closer ever for more than a year. But it also ruined him. I’m not going to say that maximum effort will always result in injury, but Gagne and Chapman are both hard throwers who were groomed as starters and pressed into relief due to their uniquely dominant max-effort stuff. Yeah, their arms are made of different tissue and their motions are different. But that’s not going to fly as an excuse when Chapman gets hurt.

What if he gets hurt as a starter? No comment.

by Brian B on Jan 26, 2011 2:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Super two is no longer an issue

There’s no way he reaches arbitration before 2013.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 26, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't add up to much in baseball terms

But if the Reds were to have Chapman in AAA for enough of 2011 (or 2012), then they avoid having arbitration on top of the $3M bonus. That’s not inconsequential, given some of the backloaded contracts they’re into.

If you think he’d have to go to AAA for a little while to become a starter anyway, it might influence the time he spends down there. But, you’re right, it’s not a major factor.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I should add

it’s mostly the timing of the arbitration, not actual payout.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Gagne was a roider, so that comp is not reasonable.

"Don't turn off the TV if we've still got bats in our hands." - Dusty Baker

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 26, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

and a Frenchman by descent

not a dyed-in-the-wool Andorran like Cubandolero. Virtus Unita Foritor!

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 26, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Gagne was also given the opportunity to fail as a starter at the major league level

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think you can be so dogmatic about that

The Yankees took that attitude with Joba and that served them really well. I’d bet if the Rangers decide to make Feliz a starter again, he’ll go to AAA for a bit.

The Mets did it with Mejia last year. Of course, it was stupid to have him as a reliever on the big club to begin with.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Send him to AAA!

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 4:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Oh, Slyde beat me to it

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I love Bad Analogy Week!

It’s like Hollywood Week on American Idol, or the week after you’ve had the flu, and you feel better, but still are afraid to eat too much!

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 12:13 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

The question for me is

… where will Chapman help the Reds win in 2011 the most? And I don’t have a good answer yet.

But for a small market team, there may be a small window for us. I want to play to win it all this year.

The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!

by TheC on Jan 26, 2011 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

The problem I have with this argument

is that I don’t see Chapman as being the big difference maker that will push the team over the top. What we needed last year was a frontline starter and a decent LFer. The bullpen was fine, and figures to be fine this year too, even without Chapman.

If CoCo was gone, I could maybe see it, but he’s not going to supplant him this season.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

no replacing Arthur Rhodes is the most important thing!

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing is, how different will the bullpen be this year as opposed to last?

What if Arredondo has an awesome spring, makes the team, and Majik-manning his way to a 9.00 ERA through April? What if Jordan Smith and Logan Ondrusek remember that they’re Jordan Smith and Logan Ondrusek? How about the potential train-wreck of Leake as a long reliever?

We won’t have answers to these questions until the season, but I’d have a lot more confidence in the bullpen if they know that if they get into a jam, that there’s the best damn reliever in baseball there to bail them out.

One thing we may be overlooking is that having a guy as feared as Chapman with the stuff he has will take the pressure off of the rest of the guys there. Think about last year, when Rhodes and Masset were kicking ass and the rest of the guys who came into the season fringy ended up kicking ass as well.

Now obviously, if he has the stuff to get into the rotation, this doesn’t matter because he’s more valuable as a starter, but if we’re resigned to the fact that he won’t be better than 5 other starters we have, he’s a major asset to a bullpen.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

But if the bullpen is a giant sorespot come May they can call Chapman up to save the day

I have no issue bringing Chapman up from AAA if the bullpen really struggles.

Also what is wrong with Ondrusek? A young tall pitcher who throws hard, what isn’t to like?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

ahem

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Ondrusek is younger

Plus Burton feel apart after missing much of the second half of 2008 with a shoulder injury, and battling various illnesses for 2009 and 2010. He is a bit of a special case.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just going to go ahead and agree with BK

his POV is much better than yours when it comes to the Cincinnati Reds

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 26, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

does he hate bronson arroyo for no real reason?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that Ondrusek is definitely going to regress

I’m just saying that we’ve seen enough of the sophomore slump with relievers lately that I’m not comfortable relying on him for anything other than a live arm yet.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

but

doesn’t that apply to Chapman, too?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 26, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Aroldis Chapman's stuff > Logan Ondrusek's stuff

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

But his control, experience, etc. are all lesser

I do think one of the fallacies common in this argument is the assumption that Chapman will be one of the best relievers in baseball. It’s possible, but with his issues it’s certainly not a given.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

well, nothing's a given

but we have seen him succeed as a reliever in a very small sample. Also, we have a long history of decent starters who dominated out of the bullpen to use as reference too, right? It may not be a given, but it’s certainly more than just “possible” too.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure, but there's a difference between "succeed" and "dominate"

My point is, RSC puts him at 2.2 WAR, which would make him one of the 5 or so best relievers in the game. It seems to be the common assumption that that will be the case.

What I’m saying is that if he’s going to relieve rather than start, he damn well better be that good, but I’m not going to count on it.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Then again, WAR might underrate relievers

He might not need to be a top 5 closer to be worth 2+ wins.

by ken on Jan 27, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

not sure about that

Even if it does underrate relievers, wouldn’t it underrate them all, and somewhat equally? Exactly 10 relievers were worth 2 WAR last season. So unless you throw out WAR for relievers completely, he needs to be worth 2 WAR to be a top 10 guy.

Even if you throw out WAR, the point is I want him to be one of the top 5 or 10 relievers if they are going to put him in the pen.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

this seems unfair to me

as a starter in 2011, you wouldn’t expect him to be top 5 on the Reds staff, but as a reliever he has to be top 5 in all of baseball? That seems to be an extreme measure of success to me.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, that's all based on my standpoint

that time in the bullpen delays his debut as a starter. If you don’t agree with that (which you don’t) then you are correct.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I am throwing out WAR for relievers

I don’t think it properly accounts for leverage. Just my WAG, but I think having Chapman in the ‘pen gives us at least 3 more wins (not WAR). For ’11 I don’t think there’s any question that the team is better off with Chapman as a reliever. The division should be tight, so we’ll need every advantage at our disposal.

Whether this stunts his long-term development as a starter is debatable. I can see both sides.

by ken on Jan 27, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you think it gives 3 wins over whomever his replacement would be?

If so, and if you are right, then I agree the ‘pen is the place for him. I’m not convinced he’ll be that valuable. (esp. if he only throws 70ish innings)

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

It's possible

It’s always hard to estimate a reliever’s worth. But if the top lefty is going to be Bill Bray and Chapman is used appropriately, I can see him being worth that.

by ken on Jan 27, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

The hardest part of reliever value is chaining

It’s not a matter of taking Chapman out and replacing him with Donnie Joseph (for example). Because of roles, everyone moves up a notch and that all depends on handedness and who has the dirtier pictures of Dusty Baker to use against him.

Seriously though, I think we only have about a 50% grasp on how to properly evaluate how bullpens are used. Not that it’s suddenly means we should value relievers more, but the idea of replacement level in the bullpen is MUCH harder to pin down than at any other position, in my opinion.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely agree

With starters, it’s relatively easy to value the additional wins provided by Cliff Lee over, say, Kyle Kendrick. Regarding Chapman in the bullpen, I brought up a comparison to Bill Bray. But a more thorough analysis would examine not only the additional value provided by Chapman over Bray, but also next steps down the ladder (Bray’s value over the next reliever, etc.). It’s tricky.

by ken on Jan 27, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we're pretty close on this one

My WAR cited above doesn’t really bear any resemblance to reality-based WAR. But unless you think all of Chapman’s possible replacements are below replacement level (whatever that might be), it’s worth putting Chapman on a scale relative to them. I landed on 2 wins, partly ‘cuz I’m skeptical he’ll be used optimally, but maybe it’s 3… it’s very speculative.

What you can say with some certainty is that the decision the Reds have made is entirely reasonable.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 27, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the Reds are swayed by this argument to an extent

but for Chapman to be an essential piece to their playoff fate, he really has to be substantially better than his best replacement and deployed very effectively. There are limits to him being used optimally if Cordero has the closer spot on lock.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

My worry

is that the secret plan is that Coco has a short leash in his walk year and Chappy is seen as the heir. If he is the team’s future closer, I’m just going to lose it.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 26, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, gird your loins

because I’d put the odds on that being what happens about 50/50

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

can we run Walt on a rail

i mean i know he made some good moves, but if I can’t see this brilliant young fucking talent blossom to be the games next great hard throwing left handed starting pitcher as a Cincinnati Red, I will feel robbed.

Actually I will feel blue balled.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's get Mike Brown to run both teams!

Maybe he’d actually be better at baseball.

The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!

by TheC on Jan 26, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep..... a type-o on my part for sure

The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!

by TheC on Jan 31, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

This is just hilarious

“Screw you and your division titles, you didn’t use one player the way I wanted! You suck! I wanna go back to losing 90 games a year instead!”

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

As I've said many times

I don’t care if Castellini decides that the best use of Chapman is driving a big rig full of lettuce as long as the team is winning.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

but it’s driving me… crazy!

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 27, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

if we had the 2007 bullpen, or if a couple of pitchers falter

i have no problem with Chapman being called upon to help out.

But the Reds have a solid bullpen without Chapman.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But you could argue the same thing if he was a starter

We have a lot of depth in the starting rotation. If he could step in and be a sure #1, then you move him. But if he doesn’t add much more than a Homer Bailey or Travis Wood this year, then I think he’s more valuable in the pen.

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by TheC on Jan 26, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not really what's at issue here though

He’s probably more valuable in the ‘pen – and undoubtedly improves it – but is it worth the cost of not putting him back on the starter track again to start the season? I think it’s practically a toss-up, but I value the potential prime years of Chapman as a SP more than I do his marginal improvement in the bullpen.

I definitely think he’s already the best arm in the bullpen, but I hopes he’s leveraged properly.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

more valuable in the 'pen in 2011, i should say

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm coming around to this

We know we can take this division again, but it won’t be easy. Even if Chapman is worth just an incremental win or two as a fireman, it’s the best move for ‘11. And I’m not ready to undersell his worth to the bullpen. Cordero had 8 blown saves out of 48 chances. Looking at it another way, his leveraged WPA was slightly negative. Without doing any math I’d have to think that Chapman would be worth at least 3 wins over that. Cordero isn’t likely to improve and will probably be even worse this year.

by ken on Jan 26, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

but if the bullpen struggles you could always call him up again in July or August

If the bullpen is fine without Chapman let him learn to start.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You could, but how many games will have been blown by then?

I guess it all depends on your opinion of our relievers and your appetite for risk.

by ken on Jan 26, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It isn't the nasty boys

but I’m pretty sure Coco, Masset, Ondrusek, guy who’s name starts with A, and their supporting cast can handle it.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

but no matter how terrible Coco is in spring training if he is healthy Chapman won't take his job

Cordero will have to do a lot to lose his job.

I don’s see Coco possibly losing his job until May.

Then again he may bounce back. He may have had some sort of nagging injury last year that we didn’t know about that he pitched through. It is hard to count a guy who’s average fastball was 94.5 MPH. I am worried about Coco, but if his velocity is still there I wouldn’t be surprised if he bounces back in 2011. If his velocity disappeared last year, I would think it is hopeless.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too, but you can count on Chapman having a higher BB/9 than CoCo

Again, the assumption that Chapman will be the best reliever in baseball is far from a given.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

Chapman’s BB/9 was only slightly higher than Coco’s last season if you factor in only his relief appearances from AAA. If you expect him to improve from experience in the league and that Coco’s control problems aren’t a result of an outlier year, it’s possible that Chapman’s walk rate could be better than Coco’s next year.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

what does he have to be the "best reliever in baseball"?

Can’t he just be a quality reliever and still be successful?

Also, Carlos Marmol led the world in BB/9 last year and was still easily one of the 20 best relievers in baseball. I’m not concerned about Chapman’s control issues as a reliever. I’d be more concerned if he was a starter.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Not for me

If we’re postponing the starting career to put him in the pen over someone else who could do a decent job, I want him to be a top 10 or top 5 reliever.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Postpone his starting career?

Would he be a starter in the big leagues this year? Doubtful. Will being in the bullpen prevent him from starting in the big leagues next year? No. I don’t get your line of reasoning.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

How is he going to learn pitch efficiency in the bullpen?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Probably by throwing pitches?

Do you think he’s going to want to throw 25 pitches every time he steps on the mound?

Can we stop acting like pitching in the bullpen is a completely different skillset than pitching in the rotation? Are there differences? Sure. Does he have to have everything figured out by the time he joins the rotation? Absolutely not.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

but if his problem was getting through 5-7 innings as a AAA starter

pitching out of the big league bullpen won’t help that.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

that wasn't his only problem

And Johnny Cueto has been an effective pitcher while still trying to learn to pitch into the 7th inning.

But I should stop giving examples because Chapman is different.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

common. that's a terrible example

because Cueto never pitched out of the bullpen. Also, Cueto’s velocity doesn’t fall of a cliff in the 5th. Also, can we concede that had Cueto spent his first full year in the pen, then he wouldn’t be anywhere near where he is now as a starter?

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

no, we can't concede that

because there is still stuff to learn in the bullpen. To concede that would assume that assumes that bullpen pitching and starting pitching are two totally different skillsets.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

You keep saying that, and I don't disagree

but I can’t possibly see how the stuff Chapman is particularly bad at (control and pitch efficiency) will be addressed in the pen.

Also, setting up hitters for the second time you’ll see them, and the mental side of facing guys multiple times. I don’t see how you learn that except by doing it, and you don’t do that in the ’pen.

Also, you said he won’t want to throw 25 pitches every time out, but I’m not so sure. As long as he’s getting guys out, even if he walks a bunch and takes 10 pitches to K guys, I don’t think anyone will be bothered by that.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying there aren't things he'll need to learn as a starter

what I’m saying is that he doesn’t have to learn everything he needs to be a starter while starting. He sure as hell better learn to control his pitches as a reliever or he’s not going to progress anyway.

I just don’t believe that the only place to learn stuff is as a starter in the minors.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree, but

Do you honestly believe that
1) He’ll be able to transition immediately from the pen to the MLB rotation? And if not,
2) Will the Reds be willing to send him to AAA for a while until he’s ready to start?

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Answers

1) Do I think he’ll be an ace in 2012? No. Will he be able to go 5-7 innings every 5 days? Yes, I believe that.

2) I don’t think it will be necessary. I think it’s okay if he learns the ins-and-outs of starting int he big leagues.

Like I said though, I am concerned to that too much bullpen success will go to the Reds’ heads.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I think a lot of the concern is based on this:

people see: learning and improving at your position =/= contributing to a winning team.

"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK

by ZJiff30 on Jan 27, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

serious question

i don’t know where to look. How many innings did Chapman average per start in AAA last year?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

he averaged almost exactly 5 IP per start over 13 starts

Went at least 6 IP 3 times, went fewer than 5 IP 3 times

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

he needs to throw meaningful pitches @ the MLB level

right now, pitches Chapman throws in Louisville don’t fucking matter

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 27, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

disagreed

…if he’s learning a third pitch or honing control through mechanical adjustments and repetition.

"Don't turn off the TV if we've still got bats in our hands." - Dusty Baker

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 28, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

stop making sense Slyde

we just need to get Chapman repetitions at the MLB

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 27, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand it's possible that he could still start in 2012 if he relieves all of 2011

but it seems highly unlikely. And don’t tell me about David Price, et al. Chapman is a unique situation in that he has lots of work to do to be ready to start, and my opinion is that won’t happen in the ’pen.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

well, I guess if I'm not allowed to give examples

then this argument is pointless.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

stop being a martyr. You and I both know David Price was a way more polished pitcher than Chapman.

Also, Price pitched 14 innings out of the pen, then went right back to AAA to learn to start. (which is what Chapman should be doing in 2011)

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not being a fucking martyr

It wasn’t the David Price, it was the et al that annoyed me. Your argument amounts to, don’t give any examples because I’ve already decided that Chapman is special. What am I supposed to say to that? You’ve already decided the argument is dead with that statement.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok. I rescind the 'et al'

And that’s not my argument. If you won’t listen to what I am saying then I guess this argument is pointless

/thisislikearguingwithmywife’d

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

This is how I understand your argument

1. If Chapman isn’t practicing the art of starting, he’s never going to learn to be a starter.

2. If Chapman is successful in the bullpen, the Reds won’t have the balls to move him out of that role.

Am I missing anything? Not trying to be a dick, just trying to make sure I’ve been listening.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

OK, you're officially not my wife. She would never do that :-)

Essentially, yes on both. But mainly on #1.

Read my argument above. I understand there are skills to be learned in the pen, but not the specific ones Chapman is particularly bad at. I just don’t see how he’ll be able to go straight from the MLB pen to the MLB rotation. Ergo,

  1. I’m worried they won’t have the patience to send him back to AAA to figure out starting. Like I said, I hope I’m wrong, but it worries me.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

that should've been a #2

and that still would’ve been terrible formatting.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm worried about #2

I see your argument against #1 and I agree. Pitching out of the bullpen is not like pitching out of the rotation, but he’ll be facing big-league hitters and refining his pitches and so forth. I’m not worried about that.

My worry is that he is promoted to closer in July and stays there forever.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 27, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm concerned about that too

though I don’t necessarily think that his signing or career will be a failure if he merely becomes a successful closer.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess this is where I differ from all of the "pro-closer" people

While it won’t be a failure, it will be a tremendous misuse of resources if they never bother to find out if he could be a successful starter.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

That's my issue too.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 27, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't say it's a failure

The good is never the enemy of the perfect.

I’ll feel slighted if he’s never given the chance to be a starter. This guys is a really, really special pitcher, and I think he has the potential to be one of the best I’ve ever seen. If he ends up as a relief pitcher, that’s fine. I just want to see him fail as a starter before that happens.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 27, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Well

While I don’t assume that the Reds will move him to starter at some point, I do believe that is still their plan. Jocketty seems smart enough to me to know that good starter > great closer. He did it with Wainwright in 2007.

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you

I think Walt has done plenty to earn our trust. That won’t stop me from worrying though.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 27, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Something I've thought about

is that instead of rooting for him to be the closer, I hope he becomes a bit of a long reliever.

Not in the traditional “mop up” sense of only throwing in blow-outs, but instead coming into the 6th or 7th inning and throwing 2 innings. It saves the rest of the pen and in my mind might allow him to stay more on track to be a starter. Also, if he knew that was expected of him, maybe he wouldn’t try to dial it up to 104 every time.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Ball one?

feel the excitement!

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by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

It's still unbefrigginlievable to me

how easy that looks for him.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

That pause and stutter-step in his wind-up...

Surprises me that it doesn’t mess up his delivery, or end up in a balk at some point when it catches and he can’t deliver the pitch.

by ashersky on Jan 27, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

he doesn't balk

He only stutters out of the wind up and you can’t balk with the bases empty.

Sometimes little hitches like that serve as a checkpoint, it may be away for him to make sure his balance is correct. It may also just be a weird thing.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure whether this applies or not

But can you not balk out of the windup or just without guys on base? Can you balk if you throw from the windup with a runner on third like you see some guys do? Just curious.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 27, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

You can balk out of the windup with runners on base

A few years ago David Wells loaded the bases and pitched out of the full windup, he started to deliver a pitcher, put his foot back and his arms over his head, and stopped. It was called a balk a run scored because everyone moved up a base.

I guess to answer Asher’s question, Chapman should probably only pitch out of the stretch even if there isn’t a base stealing threat because they could call that little hitch a balk.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Chappy as a setup guy

The Reds didn’t replace Sir Arthur and it seems clear that AC will perform that duty.
The question is, could we have gotten somebody slightly less effective than AC to put in that role (Bray) and use AC as a rotation guy?

If it is about a lefty, we have the Gnome, as well as Bray and … dunno what else …

so how important was Rhodes to this team? That seems to be what Chapman is supposed to supply.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 26, 2011 1:08 PM EST reply actions  

I think its all about winning.

The Reds need to worry about winning this year. If Chapman in the pen is going to make that a reality I have no problem with that. However if they start to turn south mid summer then Chaps should be sent down to to begin/continue, or whatever you want to call it, his career as a starting pitcher. Now if and when the Reds make a playoff push again 2011 and hes still a part of the pen, i dont know what the fuck to do with him 2012.

He called me a baboon, he thinks I'm his wife.

by ThreeofSpades on Jan 26, 2011 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

It's not just all about the winning...

it’s also about the ticket sales.

People will buy tickets just to see Chapman. Keeping him in AAA loses them $$.

by MatthewH on Jan 26, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong

Winning sells tickets. Nobody will pay to see a side-show on a shitty team. The team’s best chance at winning is with Chapman as a #1 starter. That’s gotta be your plan A.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 26, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The Reds don't think short-term like that anymore

They know full well that to be a successful franchise, they need long-term success, not short-term money gains. I’ve been told such by people in the organization several times.

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by Slyde on Jan 26, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if they did

I’m sure they would look at the Strausberg effect.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

x

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:34 PM EST reply actions  

hey, jch, what do you think about Janish as the starting SS?

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Janish will be the OD starter

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe he can take Rhodes' place in the pen!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 26, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you think about losing your honorary mod status?

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn't possibly care less one way or the other

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

But it's a great resume-padder

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I am incredibly happy that if a prospective employer Google searches my name, it doesn't point to any Red Reporter pages :)

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.....just.....wow

Well done.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Now for a serious response

TheC nailed it with “The question for me is where will Chapman help the Reds win in 2011 the most?”

  For me (and apparently the Reds’ FO) the answer is “in the bullpen”. Unless we have a rash of injuries to the rotation Chapman will be a reliever, and a damned good one at that (my guess). I have absolutely no problem with him being a starter if he becomes more pitch effective and adds a third above average pitch, even if it’s just a show pitch. BUT: If you’re going to make him a starter, don’t try to do the spot starter bullshit with him. Build his stamina, work with him on pacing, whatever it takes. Do it next offseason, as it’s probably too late to do it now. But make sure you give him the best chance at success possible.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:40 PM EST reply actions  

Don Gullett pitched 42 of 44 games in relief in 1970

in 1971 he started 31 of 35 games and pitched 217 innings. It used to be common for a pitcher to get his feet wet in the bullpen and then move to being a starter full-time.

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by Slyde on Jan 26, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, and I don't have a problem with that at all

I just don’t want them to get any wild ideas about giving him a spot start here or there, although I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t.

My guess is that Chappie ends up in the bullpen long term, but again – I don’t care. I don’t give a shit if he’s waiting tables at Toby Kieth’s new bar as long as the Reds are winning 90-95 games a year.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Posted this in the prospect thread too

BA released their top 30 Reds prospects in their handbook, which I’m braving the snow to go pick up this afternoon.

1. Chapman
2. Hamilton
3. Mesoraco
4. Alonso
5. Yorman
6. Grandal
7. Francisco
8. Cozart
9. Frazier
10. Lotzkar
11. LaMarre
12. Drew Cisco
13. Joseph
14. Valaika
15. Daniel Corcino
16. Guillon
17. Arias
18. Boxberger
19. DiDi Gregorius
20. Sappelt
21. Kyle Waldrop
22. Torreyes
23. Rodriguez
24. Neftali Soto
25. LeCure
26. Correa
27. Daryl Thompson
28. Juan Duran
29. Phillippe Valiquette
30 Felix Perez

Some interesting choices in there. I’m pumped to hear how Cisco does this year. Also, the Negron supporters can suck it. Sappelt too.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

I don't get ranking Hamilton over Mesoraco or Alonso

The kid is 20 years old and hasn’t even played in Dayton. A LOT can happen between now and 3 years from now.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree, even though I love Hamilton

BA is all about the tools, which is why you see high floor guys lower down. Sickels is all about floor and upper levels performance. Two different approaches, two very different lists.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Watched Inception again the other night

It didn’t hold up as well as I thought it would, but then I thought it was the most inspired movie I had seen in years the first time.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 26, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw The Fighter Sunday night, it was pretty good

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 26, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Christian Bale was great

Didn’t get the gushing that’s been going on over Melissa Leo.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 26, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm on a slow computer right now

but the Filmdrunk clip of that is fantastic.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 27, 2011 8:35 AM EST up reply actions  

When they show the real guys at the end I nearly shit

Christian Bale absolutely nailed his role, it was crazy. Agreed on Leo.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 27, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Gregorius over Sappelt, Torreyes, Rodriguez, Correa, Duran, and even LeCure

I think BA is kinda crazy. They must go to the extreme of what nyc says about valuing tools above all else. Hamilton is also super high.

by kcgard2 on Jan 26, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Very interesting

I get the feeling that if Sheldon hadn’t been on vacation we would’ve known this earlier.

by ken on Jan 26, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see why they can't do something similar to what they did last year.

Have him start the year in AAA to give him some innings and work on his 3rd pitch, see how the bullpen holds up in his absence (between Smith, Burton, Willis and possibly Arredondo there certainly are options) and then call him up to the bullpen mid to late year for the playoff push. If the made up projection our fearless leader gives us of 2.2 WAR for the year is true, or at least close, then the benefit of having him in the pen for the whole season rather than half the season is somewhere between .5 WAR and 1 WAR depending on the performance of who takes that spot. That isn’t such a huge deal that delaying his development as a starter would be worth it to “win now.”

Watch it, ass blood.

by -ManBearPig on Jan 26, 2011 2:21 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

eggzactly

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 2:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Control issues

The biggest hurdle for Chapman to become a MLB starter is to iron out his control issues. He can do that as a reliever, IMO. I am plenty content to wait until 2012 to see what kind of starter he can be.

by Heywood on Jan 26, 2011 4:02 PM EST reply actions  

I think his biggest issue

is pacing. When I saw him start in AAA, he got off to a slow start, reached a sharp peak, then fell off a cliff. The falloff in velocity was so abrupt that the fans thought he was injured. (He wasn’t – just tired.)

That’s not something he’ll learn in the pen.

I think he also needs to learn to field his position and hold runners on. That’s something Homer really struggled with, and I think Chapman has some work to do there, too.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 26, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this

Control is an issue, but pacing is a bigger one. Also, he’ll definitely work out his control more as a starter, for a number of reasons.

One, there isn’t as much incentive to be pitch efficient and have great control when you are a reliever. If it takes you 25 pitches to get through your inning, so be it. Two, the big issue with his control is repeating his delivery. It seems to me that he’ll get better at that faster as a starter, simply because he’ll be throwing so many more pitches as a starter, therefore offering more practice and repetition.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It's tough not to see Chapman needing time in AAA to work on this

Homer Bailey is a good compare/contrast – while he’s not nearly the fireballer that Chapman is, both are reigning top prospects in the org. There wasn’t the same incentive to rush Homer to the bigs and/or bullpen when the Reds weren’t in contention, so he had plenty of time to adjust. re-adjust, develop a new pitch etc. And for most of Homer’s time in the system, there was little to no SP depth, so he was always slated for the rotation. The climate is different for Chapman – and he’s a different pitcher – but if they eventually want a place for him in the rotation, they’ll have to give him some of the same developmental care.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

I love a guy who comes into a 2 run game in the 7th, with runners on second and third and can’t find the plate.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess the big question is

who would you rather have, Billy Wagner or Randy Johnson?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

Context shouldn't matter

Not with a 24 year old who throws 102, do what is best for the future.

Even with the context, I would rather put an ace at the top of the rotation.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

what good is Randy Johnson if you're not giving him run support?

what good is Randy Johnson if he’s not pitching complete games?

Billy Wagner has value too

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 26, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

What a ridiculous argument

That’s like answering the question “Who is hotter, Adriana Lima or Kirsten Dunst?” by responding, “well, depends on the context. Kirsten can be cute, and she seems to have a nice personality. What good is Adriana Lima if she’s not wearing those Victoria’s Secret outfits? I mean, Kirsten has some value too”

Seriously, how does run support matter one bit in this conversation?

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

the argument is ridiculous more because the premise is ridiculous

It’s not either Billy Wagner or Randy Johnson. It’s more like Arthur Rhodes or Oliver Perez, if we’re being realistic. I believe that Chapman has Randy Johnson upside, but that’s like his top 5% comp. He’s much more likely to be an Oliver Perez type (ASIDE: Scott Boras once called Perez the next Randy Johnson during free agent negotiations). And while Chapman has the potential to be a dominant closer, he’s more likely to be just a very good lefty reliever.

To me, that’s how the debate should be framed. Not, would you rather have a hall of fame closer or a hall of fame starter. Rather, would you have a very good reliever or a good, but erratic starter? That’s a much harder debate, in my opinion.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with that framing of the argument

except I don’t necessarily agree with the Perez comp. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say I do. Well, Chapman is locked up for the next 5-6 years. I think it’s worth finding out whether he’s Johnson or Perez before sticking him in the pen.

And I’m not one that believes that the front office is incompetent. I actually have hope that they’ll do the right thing with him and give him a chance (eventually) as a starter. But there’s just so much that makes me nervous about this. He’ll be very good and exciting as a reliever, consistently topping 100 mph, and the pressure to leave him there will be too great. Also, the 100 mph thing scares me too. I think he’s much less of an injury risk as a starter. Finally, even if public or fan pressure isn’t there, I’m not sure they will have the stomach to send him back to AAA to learn to start, and given the youth and depth of the rotation, I don’t know that he’ll ever get a chance in the bigs to try it either.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

we won't find out of if he is Johnson or Perez this year

And every pitcher needs to take their own path. I think it’s defeatist to assume that the Reds aren’t going to do what is best for the organization.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair.

I think it’s naive to assume they will.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not assuming anything

I’m just saying that being in the bullpen does not prevent him from being a starter, nor does it stifle his growth. I have no assumptions about what the Reds will do with him in 2012.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

But your main argument is

“The Reds know what they are doing, every pitcher has their own path, and it’s a wash whether he’ll be better in the pen or the rotation”

Since you like providing examples, and there are apparently loads of examples of pitchers who have started in the pen and then immediately transitioned to starting, I’d like to have some. I’m just very skeptical that
1) He’ll be able to easily transition from relieving to starting
2) That transition won’t require at least a bit (or a lot) of AAA time
3) The org will be willing to give him that transition time

I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I just see so much that can go wrong with this. And sure, if he ends up as a very good reliever, it’s not the end of the world, but I’ll be really disappointed if that’s what happens without us really truly finding out if he could’ve been a great starter.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think it's a wash whether he'll be better in the pen or rotation

I think it’s unknown. In 2011, I think he’ll help the Reds more in the bullpen. I also don’t think that stunts his growth.

Examples (sort of) off the top of my head
Don Gullett
Jack Billingham
Chuck Finley
Kenny Rogers
Pedro Martinez
Derek Lowe
Kent Mercker
Johan Santana
Adam Wainwright
CJ Wilson

I only did an eyeball check, but all of those guys pitched almost exclusively out of the bullpen for an entire season and then transitioned to the starting rotation as a big leaguer the following season. I can probably come up with more with a better search mechanism than what I used, if you’d like.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, this is fine, thanks, cap'n.

I think we’re all tired of this argument, esp. since it’s a given that he’s going to be in the pen in 2010. (Thanks a lot RSC!)

And I could come up with reasons why these guys were more suited to make the transition than Chapman, and I could also come up with guys who were messed up by going back and forth. Joba Chamberlain comes to mind.

The point is, I’m worried that he’s never going to get a chance to be a good starter.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 27, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

There are definitely examples on either side

it’s not a perfect solution, but sending him to Triple-A to practice starting isn’t without it’s issues too.

It’ll all work out, kid. You just gots to believe!

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 27, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

i was looking for two examples

both Johnson and Wagner were hard throwing lefties, I know that is a best case scenario, for whatever path Chapman takes.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Oliver Perez was bloody murder in MVP2003

so it’s not like Boras was out of water.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 27, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Kirsten Dunst is never hot, so there's the answer to that question....

Look at Felix Hernandez circa 2010. He won himself a Cy Young, but how did his Seattle Mariners do? He didn’t get a lot of run support, he went deep into games, but his team sucked ass around him. What value did Felix Hernandez have to the 2010 Mariners when the rest of the team sucked ass and he was a clear ace? Sure, he had value, but contextually his value was moot.

A pitcher’s value increases by the players around him. If you’re Mo Rivera and you’re the last piece of the puzzle to a championship club, then your value increases. If you’re Randy Johnson and you’re the staff ace and you’re vaulting your team to the playoffs, then you’re more valuable than if you’re Felix Hernandez and you’re winning a Cy Young on a sorry ass team.

Make sense?

Pitchers also have value the deeper they go into games on better teams.

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 27, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

ergo, Adam Dunn is worthless!

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 27, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

So if your team stinks, don't bother trying?

I mean the Cubs might resemble the Washington Generals at times, but I think they’re putting forth an honest effort.

by ken on Jan 28, 2011 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

No, it doesn't make sense.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 28, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean, I see where he's coming from

But Felix Hernandez is still a pretty valuable guy whatever team he’s on.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 28, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

even in 2014?

Seems a bit extreme. Also, he’ll probably get tired of AAA after that long.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 26, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

You won't be saying that when he has an ERA under 2 as a reliever and takes over closing for Coco

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

i will

it will be a fuckin waste, and a contract that was very good for a starting pitcher is very average for a relief pitcher.

It is a waste of talent.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

you assume a lot

He doesn’t have to start in 2011 to be a starter long term.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 26, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I was typing a response to justin, but ya know

This.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I have this feeling that if Coco shits the bed, Chapman will take over his job

Which would be okay for one year. But Chapman will dominate with his 105 MPH fastball, and the front office will say, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Plus if they want him to start, and think he needs more time in AAA to prepare for it, why not do it in 2011?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this particular front office is smarter than you're giving them credit for

1. Nothing the current regime has done leads me to believe that as long as they see Chapman’s future as a starter, that he won’t eventually make it there. They know what they have in Chapman, they’re paying a lot of money for it, you can bet your ass they’re going to get the most they can out of their investment.
2. Who said that anybody thinks Chapman needs more time AAA in order to transition to starting? We need to quit with this notion. As long as he’s working on his secondary pitches (which can happen as a reliever, likely in bullpen sessions), and his stamina (through winter ball, and working to stretch his arm out before ST 2012), there’s no reason why he needs to be in AAA to do that. If anything, he’s already shown that he can murder the hitters down there with the current stuff he has, and it could benefit him to face halfway decent hitters. Not only that, as much as I’m a fan of old Teddy Power, he’s no Bryan Price. I’d rather see our most highly distinguished, most highly compensated pitching coach sculpt our finest talent. Just me, though.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure he'll dominate

Yes, he throws hard, but a lot of hard throwers aren’t dominant, at least not all the time. Joel Zumaya? Kyle Farnsworth?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 26, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

so everyone in louisville is a waste of talent then?

I like my beer cold, my tv loud, and my homosexuals flaming.

by vottomatic on Jan 26, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No, because not everyone in Louisville is a better option than what's already contributing in Cincinnati

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Jan 26, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

but is the reward of having him in the bullpen this year

greater than the risk of him never going back into the rotation or hurting his development as a starter that the bullpen could create?

I like my beer cold, my tv loud, and my homosexuals flaming.

by vottomatic on Jan 27, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Right when I saw "tilt-o-whirl" I knew this was a post by Jose Spuds

and I’m skeptical of reliever WAR, though pretty agnostic on this issue at this point.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 26, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions  

The agnostic front is a pretty good place to be on this one

I landed on making him a starter again this season, but mostly because of personal preference and belief in the importance of getting to his prime years as a starter sooner. I don’t know of a great way to quantify how much better he makes the bullpen this season, let alone the long-term likelihood of him being an elite starter at age 26. But this was my best stab.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 26, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me also add

That I love the pose struck by Chapman in that photo. Graceful, Classical, exudes potential energy.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 27, 2011 12:31 AM EST reply actions  

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