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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

The Johnny Cueto Contract

The Reds reportedly have agreed to a four year, $27 million contract with 24-year old RHP Johnny Cueto.  This would be the third major extension the club has offered a young player, and the fourth multi-year extension of the offseason.

Cueto was signed as an international free agent in 2004, and progressed quickly for his age, appearing in his first big league season at age 22.  He throws four-seam and two-seam fastballs, as well as the occasional cutter, a slider, and a change-up.  He'll use the change a lot on one-strike counts, and will try to finish off hitters with his slider or fastball.  Here is how he's done:

Year Age Team IP ERA* FIP* xFIP BABIP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 GB% WAR-R/9* WAR-FIP*
2008 22 CIN 174.0 4.64 4.72 4.37 0.309 8.2 3.5 1.5 39% 1.2 1.1
2009 23 CIN 171.3 4.48 4.51 4.57 0.296 6.9 3.2 1.3 42% 1.4 1.3
2010 24 CIN 185.7 3.77 3.85 4.26 0.296 6.7 2.7 0.9 42% 3.1 2.6
ZiPS 25 CIN 190.7 4.13 3.96 --- --- 7.4 2.9 1.1 --- 2.4 2.7
Oliver 25 CIN 178.0 4.34 3.92 --- --- 7.1 2.9 1.0 --- 1.7 2.7

While initially, Cueto looked to be a fly ball/strikeout pitcher, he has seen his strikeout rate drop dramatically after his first season.  At the same time, however, his walk rates and home run allowed rates have fallen, while his ground ball rates have increased slightly.  He certainly seems to have the kind of stuff needed to have better strikeout numbers than he had last year, and the two projection systems I'm using both see him getting over the 7 k/9 mark this season.  If he can do that, and continue to keep his walks and home runs down, he should continue to be a fine pitcher for the Reds moving forward.

Star-divide

I report two WAR stats here.  The first is based on park- and fielding-adjusted runs allowed per nine innings.  The second is built on estimated runs allowed using a park-adjusted FIP.  They are generally in pretty good agreement throughout Cueto's career, and rate his 2010 performance as being worth somewhere in the 2.5 to 3 wins above replacement range.

The two projections vary a fair bit in terms of what they see in Cueto's future.  But Oliver's R/9-based WAR, as I calculate it, seems unusually low...and I wonder if they are projecting that the Reds' fielding in 2011 will be quite a bit lower than I think it will be.  If we just average across both systems, and both WAR calculations, Cueto projects as a 2.4 WAR player next season.

The Reds are paying $27M/4 yrs, including a buy-out of all of his arbitration years and his first year of free agency.  Here's a schedule that fits that contract:

Year Age $/WAR ArbDiscount WAR Payout
2011 25 $5.00 40% 2.3 $4.6
2012 26 $5.40 60% 2 $6.5
2013 27 $5.83 80% 1.7 $7.9
2014 28 $6.30 100% 1.4 $8.8

Total: $28 M

So that's pretty much right dead on, and would make this a market-fair contract for the Reds.  They don't gain a lot of value under that scenario, but at least they have cost control--they won't have to pay more for Cueto if he continues to improve and outperforms this projection.

Cueto is only 25 years old, however.  25-year old pitchers will typically get hurt and spend time on the disabled list 29% of the time (avg of 68 days), so that has to pull down his projection.  But there's also still a decent chance (say 30%?) that Cueto will improve over his past performance.  And there's a good chance (say 40%?) that he stays healthy.  Based on those probabilities, we could just assume a flat aging curve--equal chances of getting better or getting much worse (hurt).  So if that's the case, then Cueto's future value might look like this:

Year Age $/WAR ArbDiscount WAR Payout
2011 25 $5.00 40% 2.4 $4.8
2012 26 $5.40 60% 2.4 $7.8
2013 27 $5.83 80% 2.4 $11.2
2014 28 $6.30 100% 2.4 $15.1

Total: $39 M

If you think that's a fair assessment of Cueto--and you'd have an argument--then this deal goes from fair market value to a pretty significant cost savings for the Reds.  The Reds would be essentially paying an non-aging player like Cueto to be a 1.7 WAR pitcher every year, when he's roughly a half-win better than that.

My guess is that the truth lies somewhere in between.  At worst, I think this is probably a market-even deal for the Reds, and you can make a reasonable projection that shows the Reds making out very well on the deal.

The cool part in all of this is that we now have four multi-year extensions on the books this offseason.  With the exception of the Arroyo deal, all of them project to be better than market value, even if Votto's is a marginal benefit.  This means is that, on average, the Reds should be able to save several million per season because of these deals.  And, because they are all operating at the same time, there's a good chance that if one player underperforms his contract, another will likely overperform it--they are essentially insured against each other.  While they still have to deal to Volquez's contract, this caps what has been a pretty productive offeseason for the Reds.  They might not have brought in any big names, but they've done a lot to put the Reds in the best shape to win year after year in the NL Central.

Update: When it was made official, it was also announced that there is a one year option for a fifth year at $10M. While with expected aging moving into his year-29 season Cueto might not project to be worth that amount (though he might--depends on your aging curve), his projection would certainly change if he performs even a bit above projection over the coming couple of years.  The small buyout ($880k) makes this a terrific addition to the deal, and gives the Reds a chance at another year of Cueto at well below what it might cost to replace him on the open market.  Kudos to the Reds for making it happen!

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I agree though. I like Cueto the best out of our potential starters this year. Though Wood is growing on me too.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 22, 2011 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Others...

Keep an eye on Bailey too. Terrific peripherals, even as a starter last year.

And then who knows what Volquez will do…
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 22, 2011 7:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I like Homer's chances of turning it on this year.

I don’t think he’ll ever be an ace, but I think this is the year where he solidly establishes himself as an AJ Burnett-type starter (before he got sucky).

by Geki on Jan 22, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Reds should trade Homer, trade Volquez and trade Arroyo

also trade Stubbs. and waive Cairo, Coco and Renteria.

"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow

by obc2 on Jan 22, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

why trade Homer?

waive Coco, or trade Coco?

the rest of your transactions I approve

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Poo-poo head.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 22, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Cueto & Arroyo are the only MLB SP he's given money to so far

he gave Dontrelle a non roster invite, but who the fuck knows if he’s still a starter, and if he’ll make the MLB roster.

he avoided arbitration with Burton & Bray, but those weren’t anything to get worked up about

should prove interesting to see if he throws some $$$$ Volquez’s way, and to see how far off the deep end I go

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Everything I've read...

…says that Dontrelle will be trying out for a spot in the bullpen. Reds could do three lefties pretty easily with Chapman, Bray, and Willis.

…who knows if Willis can hack it as a reliever, of course…
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 22, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Chapman's replacing Rhodes, Bray's a lock for the pen (right?)

so does that mean the Reds will actually think about carrying a 3rd lefty in the pen?

I’m not a fan of Lefty Smurf unless one of our main options is on the DL, I don’t think Maloney would fare well out of the pen, and I know zilch about Valiquette (aside that he has 3 Ps in his first name)

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

But...

I wouldn’t necessarily consider Chapman a lefty in the bullpen. With his stuff he should be considered to get out anyone. He isn’t what you would consider a typical lefty. I think with him you can still put another lefty in the bullpen as a specialist.

But, Chapman also shouldn’t be in the bullpen he should be starting on the MLB or AAA team.

"Me carrying a briefcase is like a hot dog wearing earrings." ~ Sparky Anderson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 22, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that Chapman should be in the MLB rotation now

aside Wood, Cueto, Old Hoss and figure out the 5th (as long as it ain’t Condom Arm, or Volquez)

However, it seems that the short-term or mid-term plan is to keep (fill in Chapman’s nickname here) in the pen for 2011 and then make it up in 2012 and after as we go along.

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2011 7:44 AM EST up reply actions  

That is the official stance.

I have a sneaking suspicion that:
a) Cordero’s 2012 option does not get picked up (I think that’s obvious)
b) The Reds will look around and say “hey, we need a closer,” and that will become Chapman’s role.

He’ll be a terrific closer. But it’s probably a waste of his talents.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 23, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Masset Masset Masset

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 23, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd love for Chapman to end up in the rotation

but if he ends up closing and is the next Mariano Rivera, that’s not a bad thing either

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

who wants Randy Johnson when they can have Randy Myers?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 24, 2011 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Mrs. Meyers, for sure.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 24, 2011 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right

It’s probably best if we don’t try to find out.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 24, 2011 7:59 AM EST up reply actions  

no guarantee he'll be a good closer either

Coco throws really hard.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 24, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

So does Derrick Turnbow!

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 24, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

walt says to consider an albino python and a pit bull

Don’t get a lap dog, a yapper or a fashionably hip breed.

Irish Wolfhound would be an acceptable substitue for the Pit.

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Jan 22, 2011 7:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Lab/pit mix is the way to go.

I’ve never met a Pitador that wasn’t an awesome dog. You get the best qualities of each breed.

by Geki on Jan 22, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Pit Bulls do nothing for me

I’ve heard they can be great dogs, but I’ve never seen it

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I've known a lot of really nice pit bulls

Really depends on their upbringing, in large part. Unlike Chow Chows for example, which are pure evil demon dogs.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 22, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame the tongues.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 22, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

that's racist!

(since their tongues are purple for those of you not in the know)

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

We've got a pit/boxer/misc mutt

Very sweet with people. Very energetic. Not always great with other dogs.

by ken on Jan 22, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

My neighbors growing up had a Chow

they named it Fu Manchu

that dog was a pure evil demon dog

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

As far as I'm concerned...

The entire breed can be destroyed. My dad’s a veterinarian. He’s considered just not accepting them as patients anymore—he’s certainly turned a bunch of chow owners away after the damn things tried to eat him. No other breed gives him as much consistent trouble. He’s certainly seen a bunch of mean-ass rottweilers and such. But I don’t think I’ve ever met a nice chow chow.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 23, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

get a big enough python

and the pit bull problem takes care of itself.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 22, 2011 8:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Pitbulls are great dogs.

It all depends on who trains them. You can take almost any breed of dog and if they have an abusive asshole training them they will be an aggressive dog.

"Me carrying a briefcase is like a hot dog wearing earrings." ~ Sparky Anderson

by BigBabyBruce on Jan 22, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

mebbe

But I’ve never seen an aggressive Golden Retrievers. Those dogs are just pure love and kisses.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 24, 2011 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

That wasn't a golden retriever

You misheard her, she actually said Roethlisberger.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 24, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

too easy

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 24, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Drugged to Fuck?

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 24, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Good stuff

About the payouts, I don’t think we should use the 40% estimate for this year because they actually exchanged figures. Cueto wasn’t going to get more than 3.9 and they probably could’ve settled at 3.5 for one year. And if Cueto is getting a multi-year extension, he should sacrifice something, maybe 10%, to bring it down to 3.2. That gets used as a baseline for the subsequent arbitrations, directly or not. So even if he stays healthy and pitches well, the ’12 and ’13 raises will probably be closer to the first scenario (maybe 6 and 8) more than the second. That still leaves the team with a good deal for the FA year (~10M), especially given the salary inflation we just saw this winter.

by ken on Jan 22, 2011 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

25-year old pitchers typically get hurt

I don’t have #‘s to back this up, but my guess is that most 25-year old pitchers don’t have 530+ ML innings under their belts coming in to that season. I don’t think that issue is relevant in Cueto’s case.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Jan 22, 2011 9:24 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

But they probably have 530 innings over the prior seasons, whether it was ML or not

unless you think ML innings help prevent an injury compared to MiL innings, this argument doesn’t make much sense.

by kcgard2 on Jan 22, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I linked to Jeff Zimmerman's article

He has a three part series that examines pitcher injury rates. They show pitchers 25 yes old without college go to the DL ~30% of the time fir an avg of ~60 days iirc.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 22, 2011 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This is a prime reason why I'm not at all disappointed the starting pitching depth stayed intact

this offseason. I just hoped that would include Chapman.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 22, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet if you do a history of baseball

you will find this number applies across the board.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 22, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but

Look at this toaster. It cooks eggs as well.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 22, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

recd

@AroldisChapman.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 22, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

How old are the Giants' starters

They seem to have a magic rabbits foot with health. Their fans are talking about winning 95 games. Man, I’d love to see Suppan become their 6th starter.

by ol Pete on Jan 23, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Boxberger was a first round draft pick and is 22 years old

He threw 102 innings last year. Also, Cueto threw in the WBC and played winter ball for several years. I have no doubt that there is a wall. I just think that Cueto is on the other side of it.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Jan 22, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'd agree.

Cueto’s become a MLB pitcher now. He can be an ace if he does it properly.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 22, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix

by Madville on Jan 23, 2011 6:08 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't know

i tend to believe anyone who throws in the mid 90s, has a devastating breaking ball, and above average control can be an ace. Cueto posses those three traits.

He has two things he needs to do to go from solid mid rotation pitcher capable of dominating, to big time top of the staff starter; probably most importantly he needs to have a consistent delivery, the games where he noticeably falls of the mound, he really struggles, and he needs to be more mentally tough, you can see him melt down sometimes.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 23, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix

by Madville on Jan 23, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Scouting

I added a small amount of info about pitch types and usage to the opening of the article. Just for fun more than anything.

Anyone know for sure whether the throws a separate two-seam & four-seamer? The data look like a continuum to me. I’ve tried flipping through a google image search, but haven’t seen a clear two-seamer grip yet (lots of pictures of him throwing either a slider or a change-up, I think…from what little I know about pitch grips).
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 23, 2011 10:42 AM EST reply actions  

I think Cueto only throws one fastball

With as much movement as it has, I would have guessed it was two-seam. I don’t think he’d have a great deal of use for a four-seam FB; IMO simpler is probably better for Cueto.

by kcgard2 on Jan 23, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not an expert

But with pitchf/x, you’d expect to see two clusters of fastballs if there were two. In this graph, four-seamers should be in the upper-left, while two-seamers should be a bit below them (and a bit above change-ups). Pitchf/x sort of shows that, but if the computer algorithm wasn’t classifying the pitches I don’t see how you’d be able to tell:

The computer algorithm is pretty good, but it gets things wrong all the time.

Until someone has other sources, or can find photos of him throwing a four-seamer and a two-seamer, I’m most comfortable assuming that he just throws slight variations (intentional or not) on his fastball that result in a range of horizontal movement values.

The change-up and slider are nice and discrete:

I fired Mike Fast a tweet, since he’s the best I know of at pitch classification.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 24, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Looking at the averages, it's hard to say that they are different pitches

Looking at the full year of data, the averages are basically the same across the board.

                  Four     Two
Spin Direction 201.5 220.6
Spin Rate 2260.2 2241.0
Start Speed 92.6 92.1
End Speed 84.9 84.7
Horizontal Break -4.2 -7.3
Vertical Break 10.5 8.5

The break numbers are a little different, but that may just be because that’s the primary number used in the algorithm to differentiate pitches (I don’t know if that’s true or not). The fact that the speeds are identical leads me to believe they are the same pitches. Typically four-seamers are a couple MPH faster than a two-seamer, no?

Hopefully Mike will chime in and help out.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 24, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

That second image is definitely a two-seamer though.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 24, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

huh?

GIS for curveball grip.

The second pic is definitely a two seamer.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 24, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

At least half of those in the curevall GIS are sliders

and there are four, five, maybe more curveball grips, one of which is across the two close seams. Some of those are shown in the GIS as well, just not with the fingers spread apart as much.

GIS for 2-seam fastball grip shows a ton of overlap. There is a ton of variation in grips, and a lot of times people mislabel pitches. Announcers fumble around on it all the time.

by kcgard2 on Jan 24, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the GIS results are a result of the images being on a page with the words "curveball grip" or "2 seam fastball grip"

I agree that everyone grips their pitches a little differently, but the rule of thumb with fastballs is to count the number of seams cutting against the air toward the plate. The main difference with a slider grip is that the ball is “out of your hand” a little to the outside, causing more force on the inside which in turn causes the spin. With the curveball (at least with me) it’s a matter of turning your hand over a little as you throw it to accentuate the grip and cause the spin.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 25, 2011 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I had a terrific twitter conversation with Mike Fast today about this.

He confirmed that Cueto does throw both four-seam and two-seam fastballs, based on grip photos. You can’t really tell from the pitchf/x afaik. As Slyde said, two-seamers usually are a mph or two slower than four-seamers, but clearly not in this case as Cueto clearly throws both. Or, he does throw both, but the algorithm may not be picking up which is which accurately and so we can’t rely on those data.

The other surprise is that Cueto throws a cutter. It’s very clear in the pitchf/x data for some games later in the year (but not in some April ones I was using above). Look:

There are two green clusters classified as sliders. The bottom-right ones are actually sliders. The ones in the middle of the plot are cutters. It’s not a Mariano Rivera cutter (or even a Jared Burton cutter) that would dive in on a lefty. But it has distinctly different movement than the fastballs, and probably makes for a nice complementary pitch.

When I get some time, I’m going to go back and see if I can figure out when he started throwing the cutter. Was it just this year? Or has he always had it?

God I love this stuff.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 24, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Photos Mike Found:

Two seam:
http://bit.ly/dIVjPJ
http://bit.ly/hVAlEa
Change:
http://bit.ly/dIWtLL
http://bit.ly/hJHyF7
Possibly the cutter—that our a four-seam, apparently hard to tell difference:
http://bit.ly/ifjiVT
Slider:
http://bit.ly/dXIwsA
http://bit.ly/i63l0Z
http://bit.ly/eRGS83
And again, photos I linked above were in fact a four-seamer and two-seamer. You can find lots of four-seamers with GIS, so he clearly throws both.

by JinAZ on Jan 24, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa

That’s neat. Certainly did not realize that. I’ll be really interested to see what you find out.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 25, 2011 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

So how effective is his cutter?

It looks like it has very little movement, but then again maybe it works because it moves differently from his other stuff. According to his fangraphs page, Cueto throws the cutter at 90.9 MPH, compared to 93.2 on the FB and 82.6 on the CH.

by ken on Jan 25, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Cutters are usually slower than 4seamers.

He doesn’t throw it a lot, so my guess is that it’s purely a secondary pitch. The really good cutters do move back in on a left-hander’s hands when thrown by a RHP, and Cueto’s is a bit more straight. But since his four-seamer and especially his two-seamer ride in on the hands of righty, it definitely gives another look. That’s always useful to keep in the back of a hitter’s mind.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 25, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

After the Twitter conversation with Justin

I decided to find the post that generated the discussion and stop by.

Here are a few random thoughts.

I’d call Cueto’s cutter a very typical cutter. Most cutters don’t move as much to the glove side as Mariano Rivera’s does. No left-right deflection is pretty typical. The reason a cutter like that can be successful even though it’s 2-3 mph slower than the fastball is that the hitter can’t tell the difference between the spin on the four-seam fastball and the cutter, but the two pitches move differently. So if the hitter gears up for the four-seamer and gets the cutter, he will find it moving a few inches toward the first-base side and dropping more than he expected.

The first time I find Cueto throwing the cutter is May 11, 2010. I don’t see any evidence that he threw it in 2009.

If you want a good reference on pitch grips, may I suggest either the Complete Pitcher guide by Steven Ellis:
http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_grips.htm
or an article that I wrote about pitch grips (particularly the last section on some classic grips):
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-digital-salute-to-pitch-grips/

Four-seam and two-seam fastballs are very hard to tell apart when you look at aggregate season data. The variation in calibration of PITCHf/x systems from park to park washes out any difference you can see between the clusters of the two different types of fastballs. So I tend to look for the difference between four-seamers and two-seamers on a game-by-game basis.

Even then, the difference is more obvious for some pitchers than others. Some pitchers have a distinct difference in spin and speed between two-seam and four-seam, and for some pitchers there is no difference in speed and the difference in spin is smaller. Cueto seems to be in the latter group.

The common wisdom is that two-seamers are thrown slower than sinkers, and on a league-wide basis I believe the average difference is about one mph. In actuality there is a spectrum where maybe half the two-seamers are thrown at basically the same speed as the pitcher’s four-seamer, and the other half are thrown 1-4 mph slower.

Winner, Beyond the Box Score 32 Predictions Contest, 2009

by Mike Fast on Jan 25, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at the Reds news archives, I found a reference to Cueto's cutter

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100527&content_id=10516754&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Cueto was pulled from his last outing after six innings because of a blister, and the Reds kept a close eye on it again Thursday. He said he felt a little pain by the end of his outing, but the problem really only impacted his slider. With a comfortable lead, there was no reason to push Cueto any farther.

“They’ve been treating it, putting stuff on it, all kinds of stuff on it,” Baker said. “So he got to that 100-pitch point, and it bothered him some on his slider tonight. So he didn’t throw many sliders — he threw mostly fastballs, changeups and cutters. But he threw a few sliders, and he’ll be ready and feel 100 percent to throw all his pitches his next start.”

Winner, Beyond the Box Score 32 Predictions Contest, 2009

by Mike Fast on Jan 25, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

And here

A reference to him working on a changeup and cutter in 2010 spring training:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100306&content_id=8703172&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin&partnerId=rss_cin

“After that, he threw some quality pitches,” Baker said. “He’s been working on some things, working on his changeup and cutter. He’s still trying to perfect those things as well as the stuff he already has.”

Winner, Beyond the Box Score 32 Predictions Contest, 2009

by Mike Fast on Jan 25, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for all the help!

Thanks for the clarification/correction on cutters. Most of what I know about cutters is from Rivera and Jared Burton, both of whom have (or had, last I looked) substantial horizontal movement in on hands of left-handers. Sometimes I think I’ll go down the road of working on pitchf/x a bit more and doing this kind of scouting, as it’s really fun. But each time I do I end up getting distracted…usually by some player value project. :)
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 25, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, now that you're here and all

How do you feel about mass transit, smoking at stadiums, and race relations?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 25, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm in favor

Winner, Beyond the Box Score 32 Predictions Contest, 2009

by Mike Fast on Jan 25, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

See, this is where we disagree

I don’t see how it makes sense to have relations during a race. That can only lead to disastrous consequences.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 25, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

no one turns a phrase like you, Slyde.

"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK

by ZJiff30 on Jan 25, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

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