Graph of the Day: Homegrown Innings
by Slyde on Jan 21, 2011 11:24 AM EST
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This may or may not be a regular feature. You'll have to tune in Monday to find out.
This article that Scrabbles linked to the other day got me thinking about homegrown pitching talent. Today's graph shows the number of innings accumulated by pitchers that were originally drafted (and signed) or signed as an amateur free agent by the Reds for the last 40 seasons. As you can see, there was a day when the Reds depended greatly on their farm system to develop pitching. The peak season in 1980 featured seven homegrown pitchers who threw at least 100 innings that year, including Mario Soto, Frank Pastore, Charlie Leibrandt, Mike LaCoss, Paul Moskau, Tom Hume, and Joe Price. From 1980-1984, the team averaged over 1000 innings a year from homegrown pitchers. Then again, those teams mostly sucked, so maybe that's not the best strategy.
Last season, the Reds got 728.2 IP from homegrown pitchers. It was the most since Tom Browning, Jack Armstrong, and Scott Scudder were toeing the rubber for the Reds in 1991 (another team that sucked). With as many as eight homegrown pitchers possibly on the staff on Opening Day, the team could easily push the 1000 inning mark this season. Hopefully the talent on this team proves more reliable than what we saw in the early 80s.
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Neat
Good to see our farm system making an impact.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
but it might not be a good impact?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Most pitchers
learn to pitch in the minors so even if you got the guy in trade and he spent 2 or 3 years in your system, to me, he’s homegrown.
That’s because he is learning from your pitching coaches.
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
Not entirely a propos but interesting:
The Billings Mustangs are the only minor league affiliate that is still with us from ’91.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Jan 21, 2011 1:22 PM EST reply actions
Just for grins, a look at the Big Red Machine
teams of ’75 and ’76 shows a nice mix of starting pitchers developed from within and acquired via trade. Which set would you rather have:
Drafted and developed by the Reds: Don Gullett, Gary Nolan, Pat Zachry, Santo Alcala and Tom Carroll.
Acquired via trade: Jack Billingham, Fred Norman, Clay Kirby, Rich Hinton and Pat Darcy.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Jan 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST reply actions
Trades and draft
Even if you have the best scouting on Earth, you still have to trade to get talent.
You can’t get access to every single pitcher who is available, and simply pick and choose from the list. Sometimes you have to decide ….
If you were going to draft either
Jay Bruce
or
Homer Bailey
and you have no right fielder, who would you select?
So you select Bailey and trade him for a right fielder.
Or not?
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
There are so many interesting nuances to the draft.
My philosophy, and that of most GMs/scouting directors, is that in the first round you take the best player available regardless of position. With apologies to Mike Leake, almost no one makes it to the big leagues that first season anyway.
The general rule of thumb is to favor college pitchers and high school hitters, but a lot of guys have been exceptions to that.
I’m a big proponent of spending big in the draft, developing depth and then possessing a talent pool that eventually can help at the major league level or be traded for help. The Red Sox have done well in that regard and I think the Reds are taking a similar approach in the draft.
One line of thought has a team trying to collect high picks and spending big at the top of the draft — the “we have $10 million to spend on 55 picks and five of them are in the first three rounds theory.” Tampa Bay is facing that in the 2011 draft. Another line is to spend big on players who have slipped a bit because of signability or other concerns — the “we have $10 million to spend on 50 picks theory.” The Reds favored the latter approach in recent drafts.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Jan 21, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for that ...
… all the same, the idea of “homegrown” isn’t that we got the best draft pick but that we ended up with a top prospect in the system who eventually helped the MLB team.
So if you draft a few kids, trade a few kids and finally get the guy you wanted but who wasn’t available at the time, is he homegrown?
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
The problem is, in the graph at least
Does Aaron Harang or Jose Rijo count on that list? Neither pitcher was fully developed by the time the Reds got them. Are they homegrown? What’s the cut-off?
I’m not making a value judgment with the graph. All I’m saying is that the Reds are getting more innings from players they drafted or signed and developed than they have in a long time. I also made the point that other examples of the same situation resulted in crappy teams.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Don't misunderstand me.
I see what you have and I like it, think it’s interesting and informative.
The notion that the Reds are getting value from their scouting/coaching is pretty important. I was just wondering … could we say that … anything below Class AA counts as home-grown, even if you got him in a trade?
I would think a guy who is in the big leagues should not count, no … because there is at least a book on him. Hell, even Arroyo has learned to pitch better in the past 2 years.
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
I suppose we could
but it’s pretty rare that a pitcher gets traded from A-ball or lower and ends up contributing much of anything at the big league level. Teams that have them are afraid of trading away undervalued gold and teams are unlikely to try to acquire a pitcher who is so far from making an impact unless it’s s throw-in to an existing deal.
Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that it’d be hard to dig up pertinent examples. And I’d never be able to do something like that for a graph like this because the data isn’t informative enough.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Agree'd
There is no magic cutoff.
Just that some folks will look at the MLB roster and say “he came up through the system” without necessarily realizing that sometimes a boxful of prospects came in one day in a trade.
The game is so fluid, it’s amazing.
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
Another interesting one is the '70/'71 rotation
They were really young and mostly homegrown. Their average pitching age of the ’71 staff was 24.8, compared to 27.6 for us last year. Of the five primary starters in ’71, four were homegrown: Gullett, Nolan, Grimsley, and Simpson. The most anonymous of that four, Grimsley, went on to have the longest career.
There's an interesting article on that 1970 staff in the upcoming Reds Annual
It falls in the the “History” section that is chock-full of outstanding pieces.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Reds Annual?
How interesting! I think many, many people should purchase it, because it sounds like a quality publication.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 21, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Is there anything in this Reds Annual about Jay Bruce?
Perhaps an overview of his young career and a look into his future?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 21, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
What a great question
I’d certainly pay a lot of money for that insight. I’d probably ask for the cover price to be doubled and then send a sizable tip to whomever wrote the article.
Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 21, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
screw that
is there anything in there about Paul Janish?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
by bbjones on Jan 24, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And those sky-high revenues should probably be split
evenly among whoever the contributors might be to this publication, which sounds like a really great publication.
Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 21, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of course
the money should pass through the editor first so that he can skim…er…distribute the funds.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
I don't know
Everyone knows the writers are the real talent. The editor is more of a secretarial position really, just organizing the whole thing.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 21, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
As I recall ....
Reds pitching up until 1970 was a group of 20-game losers and castoffs. The line about them at that time was if you could hold Cincy to 9 runs, you had a chance.
Pitching until 1970 was not even in the Reds conversation.
Without looking it up, isn’t Jim Merritt in this list somewhere?
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
Well
Jim Maloney was building a Hall of Fame career up until 1970 and Gary Nolan was pretty devastating except for the injuries. They did have some crap besides that in the second half of the 60s, though in ’67 the team was second in the NL in ERA in a pitching rich year (NL ERA that year was 3.38).
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Maloney was a beast
I often wonder how he’d fare today. What’s this 100 pitch limit?
He had games of 180 pitches or more.
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
The Royals have easily the richest system in baseball
They say that they’re going to put the savings from the Greinke trade into the draft and international signings. It will be interesting to see how much homegrown talent they have on the field in 2020.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
by poojols on Jan 21, 2011 5:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm just wondering
How much of this talent they will be able to hang on to for a decade.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
by poojols on Jan 21, 2011 7:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Royals
twenty years ago, in 1990, they had the richest payroll in baseball.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
sure, but the difference between the highest and lowest was only $15 million.
The top half of the league was only separated by $6 million
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
The Royals payroll
was just under $24 million.
And that was the biggest in MLB.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
And in 1991, Oakland was first
And in 1993, the Reds were second.
And THEN the strike happened…
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
Also
ARod made $8.5M more last season than the entire Reds roster in 1990, and that’s AFTER adjusting for inflation. (It’s true, I read it in a book)
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
by Slyde on Jan 21, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Were you watching your neighbor's lawnmower run unattended while reading that book?
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure why this has become the go-to joke for me
It’s not like I had to sit and watch out my window for 5 hours to be able to hear a lawn mower running.
And no. I haven’t actually read the book.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
I actually find it quite fascinating
that would have freaked me the Hell out
lawnmower running for that long, and it didn’t stall from running out of gas?
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, it was weird to say the least
especially because the guy is fairly normal. Runs a golf course and everything. You’d like him. Scrabbles wouldn’t.
Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!
The line has been drawn
On this side – me, Drew Stubbs, and common decency
On that side – HLM, golf, and the Nazis
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 21, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
you might wanna put Condom Arm on your side too
this is about to turn into some straight up Sharks & Jets shit
I’ll take Laynce Nix on my side (and Mads, too)
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Now just a minute ...
… the rules are, no crying.
There is no crying in baseball. Got it?
OK, now come out fighting.
The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71
Live long and prosper
I can’t be the only one who sees it
"Those fellas make some good points," Baker said. "They're profane as hell, and they're probably gay, but they make some good points."
Dusty Baker on RR
which golf course?
this might change my opinion of him….
typically I don’t like people that run golf courses, b/c they run them into the ground b/c they only care about the fucking bottom line….
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
i don't care about golfers at all
they’re pretentious, self-absorbed, hideous dressers and generally own residences.
Gophers, however, i love. They try to stick it to The Man by squatting on his property. Priceless.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
so what you're saying is if we didn't share an affinity for burgers, we wouldn't get along?
I see how it is, jerk
but I was hoping we could go to the Creationism Museum next time I’m in town!
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
cool!
im actually a non-agnostic some im down with that. ive actually heard some peers give positives reviews of the place, which took me by surprise.
im very interested in seeing how good their burgers are at the snack bar…im wagering better than Squatmans!
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
way to go out on a limb with that wager
that’s like betting the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow, and jch won’t be allowed out next time I’m in town
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure why this keeps being said
The decision not to come to Herb & Thelma’s was mine, and I had my reasons.
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
that was certainly a decision
and I still miss you, fuckface
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 24, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
I am certain that the Peach gave you several options and allowed you to make your on choice as to which option was best.
(And still retain the illusion of free choice)
Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix
reply fail!
you reply to me, but not jch?
common Mads….
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 24, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
we can make it a couples date!
my better half and yours, BK & Mads, ‘tHan & Chandra, we can all pair off two by two and learn about Noah’s Ark!
do they do group rates?
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in... Need a date though.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
his fertility is greatly exaggerated
Mads is still the site’s Procreator.
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
true
and from what I’ve seen, has created some beauty!
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
so, any ladies out there want to go to the creation museum?
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
by ZJiff30 on Jan 24, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
YES WE DO ZJIFF - Bronny took us lasst time!!!
Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix
wait, wait, wait
you’re saying the highest payroll in MLB was $24 million just 20 years ago?
[imagine i’m making an economics comment here.]
tick, tick, tick
20 years ago the USA was involved in a Gulf War?
(discuss!)
"Yahan Sentona's strikeouts are way down this year" Jake Liscow
A picture is worth 100 (one hundred) words
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjWVHie2qD5WeCZO0yHQv72d—SH4EjDhp_N2RrsNNiv3lbWxw&t=1
Fred Lewis and EdRent together are not worth One Laynce Nix
And a thousand words is just a picture to the illiterate
"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs
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