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The Joey Votto Extension

Today Joey Votto signed an extension like we all hoped he would.  Unfortunately, it was only for three years.

I think this extension is fascinating in terms of the motivations driving each party.  From Votto's perspective, he was a property of the Reds for three more years no matter what.  Signing only a 1-year deal is somewhat risky, as he'd risk getting substantially less in future seasons if he, for example, got hurt in a way that severely hampered his performance.  But it also wasn't THAT risky.  It was only two more seasons in which he'd have to perform well.  And he was already guaranteed to get his first multimillion paycheck this coming season--the Reds' arbitration offer was reportedly something like $7 million.  As we can all attest, the first one of those $7 million paychecks you get is the most important, right?  Therefore, while I can see him giving a slight discount for the security, I wouldn't expect it to be massive.

From the Reds' perspective, as Fayman notes, the fact that they didn't get to buy out any of his free agent years is a bit surprising.  That often is one of the benefits of offering a multi-year extension like this--you absorb some risk, but you get to own a player for longer.  So in that case, the two benefits left are a) cost certainty, and b) a discount over what you can reasonably expect to pay the guy going year to year.

We can't know the exact numbers that the Reds have, in terms of what they expected to pay him going year to year.  But we can make a reasonable guess by running our back of the envelope calculations as we have been doing for other signings.  As usual, we'll start with hitting:

Year Age Team PA BB% K% AVG OBP SLG ISO BABIP wOBA Bat
2008 24 Reds 589 10% 19% 0.297 0.368 0.506 0.209 0.328 0.373 14
2009 25 Reds 544 13% 23% 0.322 0.414 0.567 0.245 0.372 0.418 36
2010 26 Reds 648 14% 23% 0.324 0.424 0.600 0.276 0.361 0.439 58
ZiPS 27 Reds 626 13% 20% 0.301 0.396 0.540 0.239 0.342 0.402 38
Oliver 27 Reds 581 13% 18% 0.307 0.399 0.543 0.236 0.344 0.405 36

Votto really has been a best case development scenario given his draft position (2nd round) and minor league numbers (quite good, not mind-blowing).  But hey, all superstars are exceptions.  Votto, as we know him now, is a patient hitter, walking 13% of the time (for context, Brandon Phillips walks 6%, Adam Dunn walks 16%).  But more importantly, when he hits the ball, he hits it hard, far, and to all fields.  His career BABIP is .353, and it's been above (and often well above) league average every year of his career in the big leagues.  BABIP doesn't work for batters like it does for pitchers--most of that is real talent, and is probably related to both how hard he hits the ball, and the fact that he's a spray hitter.

Star-divide

Unlike a lot of power hitters, Votto does not rely on pulling the ball, hitting as many of his home runs to opposite field as to right field.  That's actually a pretty rare trait, and Dave Cameron proposed that it might be something we need to pay attention to when similar players emerge.  Also, lest you think that his home run totals last year were a result of Great American Ball Park, Hit Tracker Online reports that only one of his GABP homers would have been a homer in less than half of all other MLB parks: his shot to left-center off of Barry Enright on September 13th (though he did have one home run that was legitimately cheap--a 345-foot opposite field job off of Roy Oswalt at Minute Maid Park, which would not have been a home run in any other park).

If there's a weakness in Votto's offensive game, it's his strikeout rate.  But it probably is the case that many of the traits that make him successful, like his tendency to wait for a good pitch to hit, probably also results in those strikeouts.  When he strikes out with a man on first and less than two outs, just remind yourself that at least he didn't ground into a double play!

The two projection systems I'm using (ZiPS and THT's Oliver) are remarkably similar in terms of their overall rate stats for him: both project over a .400 wOBA for him, and at least in Oliver's case it's the fourth-best projected offensive performance in baseball (behind only Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, and Adrian Gonzalez).  The reason they both look weaker than his last two seasons' performances is simply regression to the mean: a guy who is on top of the world may certainly stay where he is, but is far more likely to fall back down to earth than to launch his way to an even higher level.  He simply has farther to fall than most players, and so the regression appears larger.  Overall, on a per-season basis (we'll do playing time later), the two systems average out to project 43 runs above average from Votto's hitting.

Fielding

To my eye, Votto looks good out there.  He's a bit flashy when he digs a ball out of the dirt (which I love), makes all the plays you expect him to, and I've seen him get to a few balls I expected to see go by him.  The Fan Scouting Report generally agrees, rating him as a +5 run per season player last year.  That survey reports better than average reactions, good hands, but only average range.  I'll buy that.

The objective systems pretty much agree.   His 3-year UZR/DRS per 162 G average is +6 runs above average.  So I'm going to call him a +5 run fielder moving forward.

Other things

Position: 1B is, on average, operated by well below-average fielders, and therefore we give a -12.5 run per season penalty to those playing that position. 

Replacement: we use +20 runs per season as the difference between league average and league replacement level.  We can add in this total to convert the runs above average numbers to runs above replacement.

Playing Time: the two projection systems differ a bit.  ZiPS has Votto at 89% playing time, while Oliver has him at 83%.  The only significant playing time Votto has missed in his still-young career had to do with a mental health crisis stemming from the then-still-recent passing of his father.  While I certainly can't guarantee that it won't happen again, my feeling is that he's far better in command of these problems now than he was even a year ago--and last year played pretty much all year (91% PT).  So, I'm going to lean 2:1 toward the ZiPS playing time projection and peg him at 87% playing time.

Total Projected Value

Combining everything above gives us: +43 runs hitting, +5 runs fielding, -12.5 runs position, +20 runs replacement = +55.5 runs above replacement per 162 G.  At 87% playing time, that puts him as a +48 RAR, or ~5 WAR player.  That's pretty amazing.  You won't find many other players who project as 5 win players in 2012.

Contract

The Reds are paying $38 million.  Here's a "schedule" that fits that offering:

Year Age $/WAR ArbDscnt WAR Payout
2011 27 $5.0 40% 4.5 $9.0
2012 28 $5.4 60% 4 $13.0
2013 29 $5.8 80% 3.5 $16.3

Total: $38.3 M

Note: there are discounts in place that reflect the average arbitration discount for each year of arbitration, and I'm having to make assumptions about how the market will change over the coming years and such.  There's lots of assumptions that feed into this--not the least of which is our estimate of Votto's true talent--but it's a good place to start.

If you instead start him as a 5 WAR player, as I'm projecting we should, the deal would be worth $43 million instead of $38 million.  So, essentially, the Reds are paying him to be a superb player...but just not quite as good as he probably is.  Therefore, the Reds may be saving themselves an expected $5 million over the life of the deal in exchange for absorbing Votto's risk over going year to year.

Some may think the aging I used is too severe, and prefer to not start taking off a half-win per season until they start hitting 30.  If we instead use -0.3 WAR per season, Votto's expected year-to-year deal would be worth $45.8 million, meaning the Reds saved ~$7.5 million with the deal.

Be it $5M or $7.5M, that's about what I expected to find.  The Reds probably got Votto at a slight discount, but it's not so much where he sacrifieced a lot of potential earnings. 

If Votto plays like a league-average player the next two years--or even an above-average 3 WAR player--the Reds probably end up paying a bit more on this contract than they would have going year to year. 

But here's the thing: Votto was a 7 WAR player last year.  He probably won't, but if he goes and does that again in 2011 and 2012, the Reds could find themselves paying an enormous contract during his walk year in 2013.  This is what teams mean by cost certainty--they agree to pay a fair amount to prevent having to pay an enormous contract at the end of the period.  Honestly, prior to working through this deal, I was pretty sure that cost certainty was a meaningless talking point for press conferences.  But here, I can actually see the chance that a 2013 Votto arbitration contract could be disastrous for the team's finances.  Here, they prevent that from being a possibility while simultaneously saving a few million per year over a reasonable, "fifty-percent" projection of Votto's production.

I'm sure the Reds would have loved to lock him up for more years.  I certainly wish they could have done so.  But a player has to be party to such a deal, and every indication is that Votto was not.  At the very least, however, this gives the Reds 2-3 years of Votto at a locked-in, slightly discounted rate. Hopefully the Reds can capitalize on that window!  My hope is that we don't hear a whisper about a trade until after the 2012 season...

Comment 141 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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what kind of bat is that?

Looks like a tire iron or something.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 17, 2011 5:48 AM EST reply actions  

It's a weighted warm up bat

with an extra weight on it.

I'm not addicted to cocaine, I just like the smell of it - Richard Pryor

by Howie Feltersnatch on Jan 17, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i like how baseball has gone from doughnuts on regular bats to a weird looking bat.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

i doubt any of that is true.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 17, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He did some work for Colin Cowherd

The check bounced, so JV is a tad pissed off.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 17, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

a hooker was pissed for the same reason

Cowherd subscribes to the Springer school of how to pay hookers

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

well, now we can pay in Walterbucks

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 17, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Not being a smartass, but is this really the first time you guys have seen one of those?

We used those when I played in HS……almost 17 years ago.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

i first noticed them last year

These are what I have noticed for years. But then again, I haven’t played organized baseball since I was 12, so I am not really somebody who is real up to date on baseball equipment.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 18, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't recall ever seeing those metal things

Just the regular wooden bats with donuts.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

same

but it was WAY more recently than that…. ;-)

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

GET OFF MY LAWN

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

They also don't have to sit in front of him and tell him he sucks

during an arbitration hearing, because no one is going to buy that.

I’m happy with this, knowing we won’t have to hear about Joey being in arbitration every year. I hope he also respects the Reds for doing this and hangs around with Bruce for the next six years.

Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.

by snohio on Jan 17, 2011 8:12 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think it makes him tougher to trade

I’d say it’s about the same, unless he either starts sucking or going to some unheard-of stratosphere level of playing. If he stays the same, I don’t think it’ll be too hard to trade him.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 17, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Depends on what you mean by "stays the same."

If he puts up another 7 WAR season, he becomes far easier to trade because he would project to provide more value than he’s being paid to produce. If he performs as a 5ish WAR player, you’re right, probably makes him no more easy or difficult to trade.

Even if he performs as projected, because he’s being paid on roughly arbitration-level rates, he’s automatically a good trading chip because his production will come cheaper than a free agents’. But that was true both with and without the extension.

My guess is that we get to have two more years of Votto, and he’s traded prior to the 2013 offseason for a Adrian Gonzalez-like return. If the Reds have a bad season in 2011, though, and someone blows them away next offseason with an outstanding offer, he could go sooner. I guess it’s also possible that if the Reds are winning, and think they have a great shot at winning in 2013, they might keep him through that season and just take the draft picks.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 17, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

On that last bit...

The Brewers have a one-two year window to win with their “all in” approach this offseason. I think they lose Fielder & Weeks after 2011, and Grienke after 2012.

The Cardinals could lose Pujols after this season, and Carpenter may go after this or next season depending on whether they pick up the option. So their window may be closing a bit too.

The Cubs start to lose some major contracts after this season, but have Soriano on the books until 2014. They’ll likely be transitioning until then, but they also have a decent amount of money to play with and might be able to absorb it.

So anyway…the Reds may well be in the best position to win of any club come 2013. So it’s possible that Votto plays out his contract and then walks. I think that’s less likely than a post-2012 trade, but it’s not impossible.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 17, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Any chance you could scoot that up a couple of years?

I am not feeling well these days and would like to see the Redlegs be the world champeens this coming season.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 17, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not saying they can't be

Just saying they also look pretty good in 2013—they’re more built to last than the other teams, at least in terms of their core group of players.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 17, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

plus the Phillies

are the Cubs of the future.

@AroldisChapman.....is fun to follow on twiiter!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Fielder will be a big loss. They’re going to sign Weeks to an extension. I wish they’d just let him go. Pitching and 2B are the two remaining strengths of the minors, but Melvin loves him. Taking the draft picks, actually giving players in the minors a chance and saving the money for whomever, maybe Greinke, would make sense to me.

I think they could be very competitive in ‘13, but I don’t really expect it. I could see Melvin going to the Yankees to replace Cashman that year or the next. He can fulfill his love for big contracts, old relievers, veteran hitters in their last years, and generally buying high and selling low. Before he goes though, he’ll send a package of 4 or 5 prospects, including a second baseman or two, to some smart team for a SS with 2 or 3 arb years left.

by ol Pete on Jan 17, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitching isn't that strong in the minors anymore

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Well

you lose 2 top prospects obviously it alters the top, but its pretty loaded. It just doesn’t have the flashy, TOR types that have the sizzle for the prospect lists.

by ol Pete on Jan 18, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This may be bullshit, but it makes me feel a little better.
“I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team. The Yankees or Red Sox — that’s a lot to deal with. I don’t want to go anywhere else.”-Joey Votto

Via Fay.

Perhaps he knows he could be the next Barry Larkin. Votto has been pretty honest it seems, so I am going to take him at his word.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Jan 17, 2011 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

Statement from Rob Butcher:

CINCINNATI – Cincinnati Reds President of Baseball Operations and General Manager Walt Jocketty today announced the signing of National League Most Valuable Player 1B Joey Votto to a 3-year contract extension through the 2013 season. Votto was eligible for arbitration for the first time.

 

            “Neither side wanted to go through the arbitration process,” Jocketty said. “We feel this contract is fair for the team and fair for a player who has become one of the best in baseball. Joey is at the center of that foundation of good, young players our organization has to rely on in order to be successful.”

 

            Votto, 27, said, “We’re glad to get this behind us. I like the city of Cincinnati, and I enjoy playing there. Now I can concentrate on getting ready for the season. We’re keeping together a strong core of young players, which should make us pretty competitive over the next few years.”

 

            Last season, Votto led the Reds to the National League Central Division championship while ranking among the NL’s Top 3 in 11 statistical categories, in the Top 5 in 15 categories and among the Top 8 in 18 categories. He led the Major Leagues in on-base percentage (.424) and hitting on the road (.349) and led the NL in slugging percentage (.600), hitting vs RHP (.347), RBI ratio (4.8ab) and OPS (1.024).

 

            Among NL batters in the prestigious Triple Crown categories he ranked second in hitting (.324) and third in both homers (37) and RBI (113). In one of the best seasons in franchise history, Votto became only the fourth Reds player to hit at least .320 with 37 HR and 113 RBI in a season, joining MVP George Foster in 1977, Frank Robinson in 1961 (MVP) & 1962 and Ted Kluszewski in 1954.

 

            Votto received 31 of 32 first-place votes in the MVP voting conducted by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America. He also received the Hank Aaron Award as the National League’s best hitter, was a National League All-Star and Sporting News All-Star and for the second time in 3 seasons was named the Reds’ MVP in voting of the local BBWAA chapter. In his native Canada, Votto was honored by 7 organizations for his outstanding MVP season and was ranked No. 1 in the Toronto Sun’s 2010 list of most influential Canadians in baseball.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 17, 2011 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

after the contract is signed

teams will use every number at their disposal to make the player look good. I guarantee you the team’s response in arbitration to that number would have been, “pssh, that’s a bullshit made up number. Get out and watch a game some time, nerd!”

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 17, 2011 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yep

which is why I hate arb

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't even know where to look it up

I don’t see it on baseball-reference, or fangraphs, or the baseball cube, or retrosheet….

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

is it useful?

What, every 4.8 times up, Votto drove in a run. The math doesn’t make much sense because at that rate, he’d have 0 for the year.

The Bleacher Report is the armpit of the internet. - BTcoop71

by johnu1 on Jan 17, 2011 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

where?

and is does she do something math or art related?

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't need a ridiculously specific location, but fair enough

and you could have completely said anywhere and of course I would have believed you

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

It's just decorum, man

I know I brought it up in a public forum, so that’s on me, but still. Asking people where their sister’s tattoos are is just crass.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 17, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

well now you HAVE to tell us nukkah

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If it was RBI per opportunity, I'd have some interest.

RBI per AB? Whatever. I don’t even know how many RBI Joey had last year, but I’m guessing since his team scored a lot of runs and he was all kinds of awesome, it was a lot. Great thing about fangraphs dashboard is you can turn things like RBIs off. :)
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 17, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I just like ratios

and how people compare to other people

remember, I judge!

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

And ye, yourself, are judged

Hey, the Bible knows what it’s talking about!

by Brendanukkah on Jan 17, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I know you'll find this hard to believe

but I’ve never read The Bible itself, but only analysis of The Bible

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I only really do required reading anymore

stuff I have to read for work, stuff I have to read for basically being a responsible adult (mortgage, insurances, 401(K), bills, other responsibilities, etc)….

academia took all the pleasure out of reading for me, unfortunately

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

See, that's one more thing that mass transit is good for!

I have a half hour chunk (at least) coming and going to work with nothing better to do than read. Working on a book now called Zeitoun about the experiences and travails of a Middle Eastern family in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. I believe it’s Dave Eggers’s first nonfiction, non-autobiographical work.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 17, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah....

I live in the Hartford CT Metro Area….

I’m lucky we have cabs here, let alone buses….

We have rail (that’s right, trains, people, trains!), to take us places to get us the Hell out of CT, but getting around CT there’s really no such thing as mass transit….

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 17, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

you should come into NYC for the next meetup!

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

only if we hit up Corner Bistro!

I’d be down, depending on when the next time is

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 18, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

love corner bistro

grimy, dirty, cheap beer and burgers

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 19, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd argue it's the best burger in NYC

but then again I’ve only had burgers at 3 NYC burger spots, so selective endpoints, oh noes!

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 19, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

What is the What?

That book made me cry a billion times. But I suppose you’d classify that as non-fiction fiction. Or fictitious non-fiction.

by Daedalus on Jan 18, 2011 5:31 AM EST up reply actions  

how is Zeitoun?

I loved HWOSG but thought What is the What was very meh

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Overall, a good story about good people

There’s a weird feeling that Eggers is trying to undersell it a bit at times. Or getting ever so slightly passive aggressive when presenting a tale of destruction and detention. I recommend it very much, though.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 18, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

awesome

thanks

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Go for

Erich von Daniken’s Chariots of the Gods. Not about the Bible per se, but some analysis in there.

by ol Pete on Jan 17, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been secretly wanting to read that for years

is it actually cool, or just the ravings of a conspiracy theorist?

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

ravings of a conspiracy theorist

But still kind of interesting.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

ha yeah

I saw him on some Discovery Channel show talking about it. Seemed geekily interesting despite its absurdity

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

well played

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The only reason I object

Is that comparing me and Alan is like comparing you and one of those Scripps Howard kids. It’s just an insult to the second party.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 18, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey Bren-Bren

How does Alan’s ass taste? Nyah nyah!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 18, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Speaking of things you should not do with your mouth...

WIfe’s in California and kids are in bed so I’m gonna eat a whole bag of Cheetos and watch The Night of the Hunter.

Anybody seen it?

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Never seen it

That is to say, I never saw it. My dad always had a thing for Lillian Gish though. He even named one of our cats Lillian when I was kid.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 18, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

:(

Can’t we all just get along?

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Jan 18, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm taking a survey.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Jan 18, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, ok.

What organization are you working for?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 18, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

We can, but fueding is much more entertaining

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 19, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if you don't agree with the conclusions

Its loaded with facts that are hard to explain.

by ol Pete on Jan 18, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

or even better

Crash go the Chariots by Clifford Wilson

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 18, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyman has contract details

Here’s the breakdown:

Votto will receive a $6 million signing bonus — including $2.5 million upfront — with salaries of $5.5 million in 2011, $9.5 million in 2012 and $17 million in 2013.

Owners needed for NL-only fantasy baseball league....inquire within.

by cesarhernandez on Jan 18, 2011 12:16 AM EST reply actions  

I'm no expert

But that would seem to make the actual contract portion of it much more reasonable.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 18, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand why the deal is split into bonus and salary

I’ve heard of that being done for tax reasons if the bonus is paid before the new year (i.e., contract is signed in December and bonus paid immediately). But whether it’s a bonus or salary, it’s all taxable income to Votto.

by ken on Jan 18, 2011 6:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't get it, either

Seems like it’s not necessarily a good deal for the Reds, either, since they have to pay it upfront. Would giving him a $38 million dollar signing bonus, then having him play for free for three years be a good deal? Of course not. Seems like lowering the contract part is only a benefit if he’s traded…to the team he’s traded to.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Bonuses are calculated differently than salary

for total payroll numbers – at least I think so. I remember when Sabathia signed, he got a big bonus and it wasn’t included in that year’s payroll number even though he got a check that year. Maybe its a way of manipulating the payroll number to get max return in revenue sharing? I’m fuzzy on all that, just throwing it out there.

Plus JV walks away with that check to start with.

by ol Pete on Jan 18, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

this is what I was thinking too

doesn’t it come out of a different budget than straight up team payroll?

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a possibility

Maybe they’re like the posting fees for the Japanese players. I remember the Daisuke contract “not being that bad” because it didn’t significantly affect Boston’s luxury tax.

by ken on Jan 18, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

right

or bonuses for LA players.

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

2.5 million up front?

I thought the point of a signing bonus is that it’s all upfront.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 6:39 AM EST up reply actions  

me too

i don’t get it.

(no, really, i don’t.)

by Daedalus on Jan 18, 2011 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

maybe Joey Votto flew back to FL

with two Scrooge McDuck bags of $1.25 million each? And the other 3.5 million is in his bank account?

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Jan 18, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Joey has to pay income tax in both countries.

I am pretty sure of this (they talk about it a lot with poker players)
that has to explain (somehow) the structure of this deal.

by Eastwindquinn on Jan 18, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

He lives in Florida and works in Ohio (and all over the US) but Canada still taxes his citizenship?

Ah, so that’s how their health care system works so much better than ours!

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably because no one's lamenting the terms of his super hero contract.

(They are done making X-men movies, aren’t they?)

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Not hardly

There’s an X-Men: First Class movie coming out, and a Wolverine reboot directed by Darren Aronofsky. They may yet do that Magneto movie, too.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 18, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, dear goodness.

I’m still trying to get the Star Wars and Superman sagas laid out to my kids’ understanding. That’s just too much non-linear hero action for me to try to keep track of.

I wonder if Netflix has ’Gilligan’s Island.’

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

A Darren Aronofsky reboot?

I didn’t know about that, but sounds interesting. Time to waste time I don’t have looking that up

by Red_Poodle on Jan 19, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's the same here

At least, that’s one reason my dad quit working overseas so much. They changed the tax law so that it was less advantageous. Of course, that was years ago, so it might be different now.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Great quotes from Votto on Sports Talk last night

(via McAlister’s blog)

“I just want to say, first of all, that a big reason I called in to the show was to say this is a true privilege to get a contract like this. It means a lot. It’s a big deal to me, my family and my friends. I am overwhelmed and appreciative. I just wanted to say that out loud. I’m proud to be a part of an organization that is moving in the right direction.”

“I told Walt Jocketty my goal is for me to be embarrassed that I signed this contract…..that I played so well that I sold myself short. That’s what I pride myself in.”

“I’m proud of so many different things..but a lot of the highlights are not individually. The memories I have are things like the picture hanging on my mantel. It’s Miguel Cairo, Laynce Nix, Jay Bruce and me…clinching the division, soaked, with cigars. That’s the stuff I reflect back on and really enjoy. I look forward to that going forward. That’s the stuff that excites me and puts a smile on my face.”

You can listen to the entire interview here. 1/17/11, hour 2, segment 2, about 13 minutes in. Votto actually called in to the show unannounced because he wanted to talk to the fans.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 18, 2011 9:35 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I wanna see the picture on his mantel

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

hmmm

Dunno if I’d want that on my mantle. Miggy looks kinda scary.

And what’s Jay Bruce drinking? Pepsi?
\

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

It may not be that exact photo

they look like they’re posing for multiple cameras there. Maybe the stupid look on Cairo’s face isn’t as bad in other shots.

And Bruce is drinking a can of Bad Ass. He puts it in a cup though so that the can doesn’t accidentally explode and impale someone.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 18, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

probably champagne out of a 24 oz cup. that's badass

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a Coke cup, madame

Official soft drink of YOUR Cincinnati Reds!

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

in that case

It’s official. Jay Bruce is the coolest guy ever to walk the face of the earth.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

TWSS

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 20, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

/heroin'd!

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 20, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

/swoon

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I posted the quote about wanting to be embarrased by the contract on twitter

and I’ve had two different people argue with me that he’s ridiculous for saying that. Are they too cynical or do people just not know how to gauge Votto? I love quotes like that from players, but these guys basically called him a joke.

Honestly, I’m surprised at the number of people who are down on this contract, dreading what it means for 3 years from now. I think people just need to see Votto playing again. Then they’ll remember to shut their yappers.

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jan 18, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Fangraphs thinks it's a big win for the Reds, fwiw

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I just think people are disappointed he didn't sign a contract like Bruce's

which was never going to happen. I wish they had gone 4 or 5 years, but whatever. I’m excited to have Joey on my team for at least the next 3, regardless of what he’s getting paid.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Jan 18, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

it would have bee nice to get some piece of mind that he won't be 6 and done.

"I can’t imagine playing anywhere else. I enjoy myself. I can’t imagine being with a better team."

-Joey Votto

by justin007000 on Jan 18, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

People complain because that's what they do

It makes them feel good.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I hate people that complain

It’s like “jeez, if you don’t have anything to say, just be quiet.”

Stupid complainers.

I feel better now.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 18, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

You just went to plaid

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Jan 18, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

can I go for the trifecta

And complain about people who complain about complainers?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 18, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

we're so meta

Joey Votto on Colin Cowherd: "I don’t know who he is"

by UncleWeez on Jan 18, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking this morning about complainers.

Man, complaining is lame. Seriously.

I’m okay with whistle-blowing and even a little bit of rabble-rousing but I have no use for most complainers.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for "the Reds are clearly working with him."

I believe this. There may be no reason that I should come to this perhaps naive conclusion but I have. Joey Votto and the Reds and the fans all love each other and they all want what’s best for the whole communal relationship and that mutual respect (‘love’ is what the kids call it these days) is reflected in the end result of the recent negotiations.

I’m not naive enough to believe that Walt didn’t first ask for Votto to sign through 2013 or 2014 and that Lozano’s response didn’t then include the words ‘additional’ and ‘thirty’ and ‘million.’ I’m guessing the contract is what it is because both sides tried to get everything they wanted but neither could. And rather than walk away and go to arbitration (i’d like to know more about it but it must be the absolute worst part of a relationship between a team and a player- so let’s just avoid it, eh pal?) both sides decided to do what they could do in order to help each other out. Yes, it’s a business and you certainly don’t want to approach every decision wearing these rose-colored glasses but Joey Votto is a pretty special player (the most valuable doncha know?) and seems like a pretty cool guy so I’m gonna tip my hat to Walt (and Bob!) and just appreciate that while this contract is long- and neither is it cheap- it makes a lot of people happy.

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

..isn't long...

How about you agree to waive the fine and I promise not to email you the remaining eighty six photos of my dog dressed as a bear.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jan 18, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for posting

I was looking for some reaction from his side and this is great.

About the concern from some, I didn’t expect a long deal like Bruce’s (especially after Bronson’s remark about it), so I think this is a perfect thing for the time being. If he leaves after it is up, that’s fine, I’m just not going to worry about that now. And by that time, Jay Bruce will be so good at baseball they will have to change the rules or disdband the MLB ;)

by Red_Poodle on Jan 19, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

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