Debating the merits of extending Dusty Baker
I really wasn't sure if this would be a comment, a FanShot, or a FanPost. For now, we'll see how it works out as a FanPost. Apologies in advance for the disorganization of what follows:
Reds.com says Baker is in extension talks.
Before this season, Dusty Baker was a pariah in Cincinnati. He mismanage(s/d) the bullpen, he mismanage(s/d) the lineup, and was(/is) partial to scrubby veterans and fast, single-tool center fielders. I am not sure that Baker's game management has necessarily improved. Gaffes this season include the early misuse of Ondrusek (against Albert Pujols) and other young rookies from AAA (so much for EDR), and the questionable use of Miguel Cairo as the first bat off the bench. Dusty may also deserve blame for Drew Stubbs getting too much playing time, but Stubbs is a reservoir of immense untapped potential, sort of like Jay Bruce (but not to that extent), which demands some PT.
There have also been plenty of complaints from some corners of Reds fandom, including the one to which I subscribe, about the crazy late-game decisions Dusty has made this year, particularly the ones where Jonny Gomes and Orlando Cabrera get to play defense in the 9th inning of a close game.
Are there reasons to re-sign Dusty Baker? It'd be a titanic struggle to find any that will convince a sabremetrician that Baker adds any value to the Reds. It's entirely possible that this season is a flash in the pan, and that an extension would be a death sentence for the Reds in the upcoming prime of Jay Bruce and Joey Votto. Dusty's inflexible role assignment of "Orlando Cabrera is the starting shortstop" and "the shortstop will hit second (unless it's that one guy)" may cost the Reds many wins in the future. Maybe I'm just looking through Dust-colored glasses since this year's Reds are successful, most players are exceeding expectations, and things generally feel like they're moving in the right direction. It's impossible, for me anyway, to figure out how much of the blame/credit can fairly be assigned to Baker.
Is it worth having an old-school manager if the players love him and it doesn't disrupt clubhouse chemistry (which appears to be playing a significant role this year for guys like Brandon Phillips)? If lineup optimization would win 2-3 more games a year for the Reds, how many wins is this worth:
So you wake up in the morning, and if you do happen to read the newspaper, or check the Internet, you know that he's not going to throw you under the bus. That does two things: That gives you peace of mind to know that you don't have to look over your shoulder every time you make a mistake, and the other thing is you want to play for the guy. You want to play for him because he's got your back. He gives you more reasons beyond just doing your job to dig a little deeper, get a little more out of yourself.
If the best player on the team is extolling the peace of mind and extra incentive provided by playing for a player's manager like Baker, a viewpoint that seems to be universal in the clubhouse, is it worth it to suck up the game-managing mistakes for the high-level benefits of player comfort and extra effort?
The Reds are 62-48 this August. If they (impossibly) continue to win and lose at this exact rate, they'll finish 91-71, which they did in the fabled 1990 Wire-to-Wire season. They're on pace to score the most runs (793) in a season since 2005, which doesn't mean much until you look in the runs allowed column, where they're on pace to give up 673, the lowest since 1995. Would you have taken a +120 run differential over 162 games (expected wins 94) before this season started?
I haven't made up my mind. I think replacing Baker after this season would upset quite a few Reds players that have really latched onto and bought into his leadership. Since they're winning with Baker, I don't see a reason to replace him. A manager is only responsible for so much - but if players lose faith in the organization that employs them, performance is sure to suffer. My thought is that with this team of mostly young players that are buying into something in Cincinnati that is resulting in winning ballgames, replacing Baker after this year will only lead to more angst next year when success could be maintained if Walt went out and signed a real SS/LF, or a few of the bats in AAA are ready to come be Chris Heisey p. 2.
So let's have the age-old debate: would you re-sign Dusty Baker, and for how long?
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you mean like PH votto with first base open?
"Yeah, yeah, that's what we do in Cincinnati, we go first to third baby!"-Brandon Phillips.
Abso-freakin'-lutely not
We need a guy who can actually fill out a lineup card correctly, as well as not stick to strict bullpen roles
I know our greatest harp is the bullpen roles and lineup structure
but I think this plays into Dusty being a player’s manager.
You come into the ballpark knowing your role. You don’t have to wonder everyday what is going to happen and where you’re going to be in the lineup(or pen). Dusty’s routine puts his players in a routine. And everything I have read tells me the majority of players love being in a routine. Yeah this sucks for guys like Owings and Janish. But I bet a stack of monopoly money, the key players on this team appreciate it.
50/50
50% horrible game management and decision making.
50% being a known and understandable person for the players.
Unless thee is a rash of injuries, Dustman would have to make the playoffs, maybe even the series to get me off the fence.
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks.. they're clogging up the bases.. ."
--Dusty Bake - Fearless Visionary Manager
Yeah, I'm kinda the same.
I’m not ready to make a decision now, but if the season ended today, I’d say re-sign him. But the season isn’t over and he has some games to win.
id be for having 2 managers
unorthodox but eh i dont care
How much longer til Dusty's gone?
by in_Votto_We_Trust on Aug 9, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
It would be nice to have a tactician bench coach whispering in Dusty's ear.
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
He feel out of style in 2006
I bet the Reds could pick him up for cheap!
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
If only he had played for the St. Louis Cardinals.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
i wish i had photo shop.
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
by justin007000 on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
We do not need evil.
You are as dumb as anything you hate.
by Pops Daniels on Aug 12, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
here's what I would do
If the Reds end the season with a winning record, but dont make the play offs re-sign him for one year…
If we make the playoffs he gets a 2 year deal…
If we win the NL Pennant he gets 3 years.
If we win it all, a 4 year deal !
Nobody listens to Andrew
nobody listens to andrew .... but i do like this way of think
"Yeah, yeah, that's what we do in Cincinnati, we go first to third baby!"-Brandon Phillips.
I don't see why you'd sign him for so long.
Are there really lots of other teams making him offers? It seems like a two year contract should be the maximum you’d consider.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
A sign of respect and stability
Lets say the Reds continue to have attendance in the 30’s for the rest of the season, earn some playoff revenue, and the renewed popularity of the Reds allows the Reds to receive more money in advertising, and media contracts. That could suddenly give the Reds more payroll flexibility, and guys like Votto, who likes Baker and claimed that Baker was really helpful when he was dealing with his anxiety issues in 2009, it make them easier to extend. It may also make Cincinnati a target for free agents. Players do seem to love Dusty.
Remember that one of the reasons Chapman choose Cincinnati was Dusty speaks Spanish. Dusty’s off the field abilities probably help his team land prime free agents and retain important cogs.
Cincinnati and St. Louis markets are pretty similar. Cincinnati has a city population of 332K, and a metro population of 2.15M. St. Louis has a city population of 354K and a Metro population of 2.8M With some success bringing people back to the ballpark, and causing people to buy more merchandise, more people to listen and watch the games, that all equals more more money. I think we could have a payroll equal to St. Louis’s in a couple of years, and a stable and player-respected manager could help the Reds sign and retain talent.
I am making some leaps in my argument, but I think a stable manager (if he is the right person) can help a team off the field.
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
there might be
Are there really lots of other teams making him offers?
If the Reds win it all, there might be other teams who want to hire Dusty. He will get the credit for the turnaround, deservedly or no.
Personally, I don’t think the manager makes that big a difference. I seem to recall that someone did an analysis, and found new managers can improve the team for the first three years, but not after that. (Meaning Dusty’s time is up, at least in Cincinnati.) The reason, supposedly, was that a new manager can see the problems and fix them. But after he’s been there three years, the problems are of his own creation, or he simply no longer sees them any more.
But I expect Dusty will be rewarded if the Reds win (or even come close).
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
building a team
I’ve been pondering this a bunch lately (well, in between all the rest of life.)
Those of you out there old enough to have had jobs for a while (sit down, crolf!) have probably had co-workers (or, as Scott Adams puts it, cow-orkers). My experience with these people is that they can substantially color the way you feel about your job. When you don’t like the people you are working with, or the general atmosphere is gossipy or backstabby/political or just rude, it’s a lot less fun to come to work. You still do your job, because it’s your job, but you spend a lot more time thinking about how to get a different job, or where else you could be. You don’t really slack, because you are a professional, but it’s hard to keep your heart and soul in it every day.
Why should professional baseball be any different? Unlike sports at lower levels, pro ball consumes most of every day for months on end — just like a real job. I can easily imagine that a poisonous clubhouse atmosphere could really sap a player’s will to live.
I don’t think that Dusty’s bonhomie is going to make Laynce Nix into the next Barry Bonds. But it could be that he keeps those guys motivated to play to their maximum potential. That seems to me to be what Votto is saying that Baker brings.
If that’s so, then the question is whether the benefits outweigh the deficits, in terms of games won. I still haven’t decided.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
It does seem that The Dusty's been able to maximize the contributes of the bench/roles players
So I gotta give him that.
It’s puzzling some of his decisions re: who starts and doesn’t that still baffles me
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 8, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I buy this
at work, I have gone through 3 different department managers in my 5 summers. The first summer the manager was a total asshole. I had no motivation to try to make him happy, or to go the extra mile for him.
My second and third summers, we had the nicest guy in the world. He wasn’t as good as an administrator as the first one, but we all liked and respected him, and I think my department was more functional because of that.
Last year he got a better job at a different company, and we got a new manager, who is not terribly likable and stabs you behind the back for her own gain, and the department is in chaos and incredibly dysfunctional. We have lost good workers in my department, who transferred to just different places in the store, so they wouldn’t be in her feifdom anymore.
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
for me it all comes down to money
I have mixed feelings overall about resigning him, but I do think it would be absurdly stupid to keep paying him at his current $3.5mil per year salary. If it were up to me, I’d be open to signing him, but I’d be seeking to pay him a lot less and maybe only give him a year at a time (two years perhaps, depending on how that might negotiate the price down). his game management skills are fairly sub-par in my mind (which scares me for the stretch run/playoffs) but he does well it seems with the players, and, as has been mentioned already above, this has the benefit of getting your players to play hard for you, something I think is extremely important in a manager.
While I’m not confident, I’m crossing my fingers that the FO doesn’t overpay him a second time.
You would give the man a paycut
after his team put together the best season since 2000, if not 1999?
He would see that as a slap in the face and leave. And lets be honest here, that $3.5M really won’t make a helluva lot of a difference.
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
good point
still, you hear the front office talk a lot about their lack of funds, so I find it odd we would overpay for the luxury of a big-name manager. But you’re right, it would be kind of a slap in the face of sorts.
i voted #1 ...
… although i reserve the right to veto this vote should pete mackanin come calling the reds front office
"Yeah, yeah, that's what we do in Cincinnati, we go first to third baby!"-Brandon Phillips.
Dusty's
going to be re-signed, so I don’t see any point to complaining about it. He’s got the team to 1st place and certain contenders down the stretch. Unless there’s a total collapse, he’s back, probably for 3 years.
Sure other managers could probably have done just as good and a few might have done even better. But if you’re the manager of a team that’s been sub .500 for 9 years and you’re now contending, you don’t get fired.
resign dusty!
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on Aug 8, 2010 6:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I never thought I would say this a year ago
but you can’t argue with results. Joey Votto said that Dusty was great to play for, especially last year when he was dealing with his issues. Dusty kept the issues in house until Votto was ready to go before the media, and Dusty had his back the whole way. Some managers may have viewed Votto as a pussy, and told him he just needed to deal with his issues and play, and that could have ruined Votto.
Scott Rolen (and TLR himself) feel that Dusty’s influence has been a part of his surprise resurgence. Also we can’t argue with the way that Dusty has handled Rolen, giving him 1.5 days of a week is probably why he really has only missed a few games due to actual injury and is fresh now that it is August.
Dusty has done a fine job in managing all the young arms. Cueto, Leake, Wood, Bailey, Volquez, etc (despite his arm surgery) have not been terribly abused. The only pitcher who was fucked up by Dusty was Harang (and that was a big fuck up). But again you kind of have to hang Harang’s issue on the rest of the organization, they could have called up a pitcher to take a start after the San Diego game (or Dusty could have decided he was going to live or die with Fogg), but every manager makes a terrible decision.
Cox made some really questionable decisions last weekend. Remember when Lou left a tiring Dempster in to protect a lead against Votto (who was the go ahead run) in the 7th in May?
Dusty makes me shake my head on a daily bases, but at the same time, I can’t say that I see too many managers who are terribly better than Dusty. I think yes there are plenty of people who could make better decisions, but they seem to not be a part of the managerial club in baseball culture right now.
Plus how do you fire a manager after he surprises the shit out of the world and leads the best team that franchise has seen in years?
That being said, I will still bitch about his crazy double switches, etc.
Plus Cairo as the first PH hasn’t even been that bad, Cairo has a nice AVG and OBP. Why not use Cairo, especially if you can save Heisey/Rolen/Gomes/whomever for an important 9th inning role?
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
by justin007000 on Aug 8, 2010 8:07 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
This is the best post I've seen on the issue.
by Grahamophone on Aug 8, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
And it was apparently proof-read
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks.. they're clogging up the bases.. ."
--Dusty Bake - Fearless Visionary Manager
Well put, justin
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Aug 9, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I say ask Votto. If he wants Dusty to stay, then re-sign him.
We need to keep Votto happy if we are going to sign him to a 15 year contract.
Watch it, ass blood.
Daedelus wants to marry him...
The more I think about that seems about right for both of those kids
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks.. they're clogging up the bases.. ."
--Dusty Bake - Fearless Visionary Manager
Every woman wants to marry him
hell I’d marry him, get his Canadian health care benefits, and live off of his MLB salary
I am thrilled for your success, hell I'm amazed by it. Nobody who knows you saw this coming.
by justin007000 on Aug 10, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
You have become quite the cad since moving to the big city.
Or wait, maybe I mean a cheap hussy
No…a Cheap cad…
Well if you pull this if off – you can buy your own Caddy – cheap
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks.. they're clogging up the bases.. ."
--Dusty Bake - Fearless Visionary Manager
fuck that
The Dusty doesn’t defend guys when they get run arguing balls and strikes, or out vs safe calls
The Dusty got into a shouting match with a drunk. I’m supposed to get all warm and fuzzy about that? I don’t get all warm and fuzzy when I argue with my Father in Law, so why the fuck should I give 2 shits that The Dusty yelled at Tony LaRussa?
Fuck The Dusty
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 11, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
S'up Nathan...
the only way Dusty is not coming back is if he decides to:
A. Retire
B.Take a better offer from another team
C. Is caught in a compromising situation with Mark Berry
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks.. they're clogging up the bases.. ."
--Dusty Bake - Fearless Visionary Manager
I will never hide my feelings about The Dusty
he’s a piece of shit manager, and people falling in love with him after the “brawl” are idiots
plain and simple
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 12, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Despite Dusty ...........
Reds played great baseball, despite Dusty. Is it all to Dusty’s credit? May be our new pitching and batting coaches should take the bow. Unfortunately Dusty is the boss and he is there to take all the honours. Dusty is stubborn as hell when it comes to Rhodes/ Masset./ Cordero combos. Perhaps he is stuck with Bruce for longer that he should when Bruce was not hitting well. Same for Stubbs who seems to turn around every time after he rested and see the game from the bench. Players all improved this year but one thing still stands out – base running has been aggressive but sometimes dangerously run. We need to check how many times our runners were thrown out at third.
Bad timing
My comment is kind of late. Generally I think extending a manager’s contract during the season while the playoff spot has yet to be clinched is not a good omen. It distracts him from doing the job that a manager should do and temporarily gets the manager lose focus on what he is hired to do. I don’t know if that is the case here but I have no doubt that you have got to keep Dusty on his toes, worrying about whether he has achieved what he set out to do at the beginning of the season and continue to win have that win the next game mentality. I am not disagreeing to extend Dusty’s contract but I think the timing is bad and should have waited until at least the playoff spot is clinched. Don’t worry about Dusty not wanting to continue. He has nowhere to go.

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