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Not surprisingly, the Super Two games have caught up with front offices, and the Reds are going to pay

Jay-bruce_medium

Link -- MLBTradeRumors

For the past few years, teams have been waiting until an imaginary date -- usually the end of May or beginning of June -- to call up top prospects in the hopes that those prospects would get the maximum amount of major league playing time while avoiding "Super Two" arbitration. The way it works is, all players with three years' major league service time head to salary arbitration -- unless their teams buys it out with an extended contract -- in which a player and team come up with dollar amounts for the player's next year of salary, and a mediator determines which amount is the best fit for the player's production. Same before years 5 and 6, and then the player becomes a free agent for the first time.

Star-divide

But the Collective Bargaining Agreement also calls for the 17 percent of players with the most service time between two and three years -- these players are known as "Super Twos" -- to also join in the fun of arbitration, which means they get four arb years instead of three. This way teams can't just stash their best prospects for the first week of their rookie season to avoid paying them arbitration after three years.

The problem is, you never know what the actual date for Super Two status is until those three-year-periods are up, so you have to guess. Generally it applies to players brought up before the middle of May or so, and usually players selected after that date get a $400,000 salary their third year, and that's that. Not this year:

The next Super Two cutoff will require fewer days of service time than usual, MLBTR has learned.  Last year's Super Two cutoff was at two years and 139 days of service time.  In previous years, the cutoff was never less than two years and 130 days.  However, MLBTR has confirmed with two different team sources that the 2010 cutoff will be two years and most likely 124 days.

The Reds called up Jay Bruce on May 27, 2008, which at the time certainly looked like plenty of room to avoid Hova's Super Two status. But Bruce turned out to be the final player in the Super Two pool, which means the Reds are going to arbitration with him after this season to pay something much closer to fair market value than the $450,000 they would have owed him otherwise. Had the Reds waited two days to call him up, they wouldn't be in this situation, and Bruce would have to wait a year to strike his first big payday.

My best guess is the Bruce will get around $4 million next year. Ryan Zimmerman was asking for 3.9M before the 2009 season, and the Nats were offering 2.75M before the two sides agreed to a contract to avoid arb. Bruce's career has been similar to this point in their careers, although Bruce hits a few more home runs and plays a different position. Still, 4M seems about right to me. It's not really great news for the Reds, as it eats up money that could have been used elsewhere, but it's great news for Bruce. Congrats to him.

It also could lead Walt to pulling the trigger on an extended contract for Bruce, buying out the rest of his arb years and maybe locking him down for a couple more. That wouldn't be a bad option to consider, especially now that he won't be virtually free next year.

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Honestly...good for Bruce

The article is interesting, it reads like OBP for the 21st century. Super-two status was worth doing until everyone did it, basically. No longer undervalued, now its just a component of how to beat teams, not the only way to beat teams.

It makes sense to me. Stud players ought to be locked-up at the front end, not skimped out on. I have more, intelligent, things to say about this, but my brain is kinda fried right now.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 7:59 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree, good for Jaybird

Looks like some teams got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I like the way the rule is set up since it seems to be self-policing.

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not so great for the Reds

There’s going to be a bunch of raises next year. Phillips and Rolen go up about a combined 6M. Votto, Cueto, and Volquez will all be arb eligible for the first time. Ballparking it, something like 13M for the three might get it done. And now Bruce too. Thankfully Harang will be coming off the books (about 10M saved after the buyout).

This might mean we don’t pick up Arroyo’s option (11 or 13M). That’s a lot of money, but for one year I like the risk on a guy who’s good for 200+ innings of average-ish ball. Then again, his declining K rate might finally reach the point where he’s only marginally better than someone like Lecure or Maloney.

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 8:58 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm giddily looking forward to the annual

Bronson 2nd-half death-to-batted-things though.

He’ll probably be worth “A” compensation at the end of this year, if he continues as expected. I am so, so, so ok with arbitration or draft picks.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

any fear in locking Arroyo up for another 2-3 years??

He would be a good piece to mix in with the power arms of Chappy and Homer, and I have not noticed any regression.

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I fear locking him for more than one year

but that’s mainly because I fear spending a lot of money for a pitcher that relies on his defense so much, especially when the Reds have a lot of pitching depth right now, though obviously very little of it is proven. Not saying they should dump Arroyo – I wouldn’t mind if he was back next season – just that I wouldn’t go negotiating any new deals with him since he’ll likely get 10M+ a year.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't share the fear

I would make the 10M deal to have a proven pitcher in the rotation with a lot of guys who honestly could be all stars or mediocre….of course I base all of this on being a playoff caliber team, hoping to win the world series again next year…if we fall on our faces the rest of this season then I am all for the youth movement.

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I say we trade for Cliff Lee and extend him!

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

or we cuold get Big Z

i bet he is available.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Brilliant!

If we can somehow get Brett Tomko back in the deal, too, that’d be so poetic.

by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't get me wrong

I’m not saying the Reds should go full-on youth movement. I understand the peripheral value of having someone like Arroyo in the rotation. My concern is two-fold: 1. His strikeout rate has been on a steady decline for 3 years now. I fear that eventually that will catch up to him, and I don’t want the Reds to be the team stuck holding a big contract when that happens. 2. If Volquez is healthy and performing, I don’t think it is necessary to have Arroyo to be a playoff caliber team, even if Chapman isn’t ready next year. They’d have Cueto, Volquez, and Leake, plus I believe they can get serviceable innings out of Wood, Maloney, and LeCure.

If it comes down to Harang or Arroyo, I’d honestly probably take Arroyo, but I have no interest in either one for more than one year at a time.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

And another thing

Arroyo has thrown a lot of pitches over the last 4 years. Maybe he’s the type of pitcher that it doesn’t affect, but I’m still concerned about a future breakdown from him in the next two years.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

and the whole carpal tunnel deal

why I am supporting your argument against my argument, I have no idea

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

how times have changed

when the Harang and Arroyo contract were given out, you were much more excited about Harang, and you were some what concerned that Arroyo would not have been worth his contract.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, then Dusty abused Harang, and it seems to have affected him

and somehow, Arroyo is basically the same pitcher after all of the abuse his arm has taken. Honestly, I don’t particularly want either pitcher with the money they’ll make, but if I had to choose one, I’ll choose the guy who hasn’t had any injuries yet.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

i know

you made a good prediction with the information you had at the time.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I honestly hope this is Arroyo's last year as a Red

He’s too inconsistent, too expensive, and like you said Slyde, he relies on his defense too much. I think we can spend his money a little more wisely, or at least use it to pay for younger and more core pieces to the team.

We’ll see soon enough

by Highlifeman21 on Jun 29, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I ain't skeered

I hope Arroyo is around at least 2 or 3 more years…..you always know what you’re getting (over a full season). And he’s fun to have around, and is a straight shooter. Actually I’d like to see him here longer if he can still pitch……anybody think he can pitch until he’s 40? Or would he have the desire to? It seems to me his pitching style and delivery would be conducive to pitching into his early 40s. And the best way to get the nasty ladies on the Nasty Hook is to be a major league pitcher, not a retired major league pitcher.

"We don't worry about the pennant much, we just like to see the boys hit it deep."

by beasleymachine on Jun 29, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't an argument be made

that Arroyo’s limited velocity could make his aging more painful. As he loses a couple of miles on his fastball he is hitting a danger zone.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, I think the raises are going to keep them from keeping either Harang or Arroyo

It wouldn’t surprise me if Arroyo ends up a type-A free agent because the wins and decent ERA, and I doubt he’d accept arbitration after the Reds turn down his option, though who knows.

I bet they sign Votto to a 5-year deal this year and possibly buy out Bruce’s arbitration with an option. I doubt we’ll see the same with the pitchers, but maybe they buy out the arbitration on both guys.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

/scoop'd!

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Through 6/21

Arroyo looks like a safe bet to finish as a type A (and Harang a B). I hope the Reds don’t chicken out on offering arbitration to Arroyo. I can see them declining to offer Harang, because if both he and Arroyo accepted (a remote chance, but still), it’d be a disaster for the payroll.

And yes please on those deals. I hope your sources are correct!

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

on this note

I really hope the Reds make a big deal for Harang’s last start of the regular season. Its looking less and less likely that he’ll be a Red next year (if he even remains one through this year), but the fella deserves one last standing O.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

problem is, are there enough fans to actually give him a standing O

I think the fan base is, at best, 50-50 split on whether or not they still like Harang. I may be overestimating the number that dislike him, but it seems like we still hear a lot more “Get rid of this bum” stuff about Harang than anything else. Maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll win 10 straight and people will remember the good old days and applaud him one last time.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'll make a flier and everything!

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

ahem, continued...

’d for not spelling it “flyer.”

by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'm confused

you said rec but i didn’t get one.

you toy with me.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 30, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting.

I definitely tried to. Let’s remedy this now.

by the finest muffins on Jun 30, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really like Harang

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just so we're clear (because I know some people think I actually have sources)

I’m completely theorizing on the contracts based on what we’ve seen them do in the past. They seem to like to buy out arbitration years on key cogs (Dunn, BP, EdE (oops) ), so it seemed logical that they’d do the same for Votto and probably for Bruce. I’m not sure what they’ll do with the pitchers because, well, projecting pitching is basically witchcraft. I’d be shocked if Votto does not get a long-term contract this off-season though.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

actually Harang might recieve much more money on arbitration then as a free agent

they can only reduce contracts by 20% in arbitration, and I’m guessing Harang would not net $9,600,000 on the open market.

He will probably get a 1 year plus an option next year for around $4M or 5M from a team hoping to get a down and out undervalued pitcher, who will probably rebound.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

/Cardinals'd

which brings up the interesting question: If Harang goes to the Cards, is it ok to openly root for his destruction as a pitcher?

My guess, though, is that he goes home town Padres. He seems to love SD and they need an inning-eating pitcher. Maybe he’d do an LA or Bay Area team to chase a ring, but yeah.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

definitely

especially if they’ve got outfielders who can run down flyballs.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

It depends

if he wins 12-15 games and has an ERA around 4.50, he could easily get $10M on the open market. Never underestimate the propensity for teams to misread stats.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

but i'm guessing if the Reds offered him arbitration he would accept

because while he might net $10M on the open market, he is assured $9.6M if he stays in Cincinnati. Plus it gives him an extra year to straighten himself out before hitting the market.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have the feeling Harang enjoys playing for the Reds...

…just not playing at GABP. I think he would rather straighten himself out in a larger park.

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

and if he tears his labrum or elbow he gets nothing in 2012

No way he accepts arbitration. Someone will give him a ton of money for 2-3 years and that’s guaranteed money, baby

by timb116 on Jun 29, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

there haven't been many big FA gets these past couple years

those “misreading stats” are a bit dead at this point, I feel.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

teams have gotten smarter with their money. case in point, Jermaine Dye

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

and the economy has played a role too

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

Oliver Perez (3years/$36M before 2009), Randy Wolf (3 years/$29.75M last year), Jason Marquis (2 years/$15M last year) – there are still pitchers getting more than they deserve.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

ok, so don't let Bronson throw left-handed

btw, LOL @ Reds finding lefty starters irrelevant.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

ha! I didn't realize they were all lefties

Anyway, I don’t think contracts will be as enormous as they once were, but I still think 3yr/$30M is reasonable to expect on the open market. They are both pitchers with good track records and if they are coming of off of good looking seasons, they could have higher demands and have to settle for less.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

that is because they aren't

Marquis is right handed.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

20.52 ERA this year

maybe he should switch.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he does that he's probably worth it

It’s not like he’d be doing it with smoke and mirrors. Ks and BBs still look good.

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, I don't mean to act like he's a shit pitcher

just that, he’s probably not going to be worth a 3yr/$30M contract, but I think he’ll get it.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the 20% reduction rule

only applied to guys not yet eligible for FA. I’d have to check.

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

Page 25 of the cba pdf if you’re interested.

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

What! I'm shocked that the team will claim Arroyo and Harang's freed up money will be used in arbitration

rather than in free agency or to acquire salaries?

Oh, hold on, it was completely predictable, although my disgust with this predictable situation is sated by a pennant race and the lack of attendance by Reds fans. Seems sort of silly for Big Bob to spend a lot more money if Cincy won’t pack GABP.

Still, the Reds using raises to existing players rather than using freed up money to acquire other talent was so predictable

by timb116 on Jun 29, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

what talent do you really want them to get?

Besides Cliff Lee? There aren’t good FA signings anymore, I think those days are over. The new big trading chip isn’t having lots of money as much as it is having good prospects to trade.

The Reds aren’t going to be able to spend for the FA-level Teixieras, Sabbathias, and LeBrons of the world. I am 100% ok with that, I’d rather they put that money into scouting and development, where its a whole lot more cost-effective.

Quite simply, buying out the next 4 years of Jay Bruce is going to be a lote more valuable than giving a 4-year contract to even Shin-Su Shoo. Young talent trumps old talent now that FAs are overpriced and Steroids are gone.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Damn

I was really hoping LeBron James would come to Cincinnati.

"There ain't no we in Arthur"-Madville's Arthur Rhodes alter-ego

by justin007000 on Jun 29, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

So I guess

we should use our mid-level exception on Jay Bruce?

"We don't worry about the pennant much, we just like to see the boys hit it deep."

by beasleymachine on Jun 29, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd take Shoo and Bruce

payroll money is as valuable for trading as it is signing FA’s. And, the Reds AAAA prospects are more valuable in trading.

What I’m addressing the the constant leaks the Reds have in Spring where they tell they cannot compete or retain talent because of existing contracts and then tell me through the same “journalists” in August that the anticipated savings won’t allow them to bring in talent because of those danged unforeseen raises. As I said, I’m less bothered about this year because of all the nice winning….still, gets old hearing the same old thing

Oh, and why not sign Cliff Lee

by timb116 on Jun 29, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

TV ratings...

the game attendance has been brought up pretty regularly… does anyone have the TV ratings, because I am willing to bet that they have risen significantly. Granted, I’m sure it takes quite a few TV viewers to equal 1 butt in a seat, but increased viewership should equal increased revenue for Bob (if not this year, then next year when advertising is bought).

by Nasty N8 on Jun 29, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dear Jay,

Some advice on spending your new riches.

1. Buy a flashy car
2. Set a late dinner reservation
3. Drive flashy car at about the same speed jch goes through wives

Your Buddy,
B-Phil

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 9:15 AM EDT reply actions  

heeeeeeyyyy

I’ve only had one wife, thankyaverymuch. :)

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

whhhaaattt

I thought for sure someone on RR had about a half dozen wives. If not you, who?

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I had a wife, got divorced in '07, got engaged, got rid of her, and am now about to marry the peach

So it might have been me after all. :)

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

it's all about semantics, see?

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he may be our spouse/divorce leader

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

In Russia, wife divorces you!

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jun 29, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i see, i see

I apologize for assuming you had a bagful of Xs

by jacob brumfield on Jun 29, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

no apology needed friend

What I might lack in quantity I more than make up for in quality (of insanity). :)

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bruce's Super 2 Status

Is Bruce a lock for Super 2? Don’t get me wrong, he’s looking good right now, but if he falls off or gets hurt is he still going to get Super 2?

by RampantRedsFan on Jun 29, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

methinks you're reading too much into the word "Super"

Bruce can suck eggs or get hurt, it won’t matter. It’s based on the first day of major league service. He’s a Super 2 no matter what.

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Super 2 Definition

You guys are right… He will likely fall into this class:

“Has at least two years of major league service but less than three, AND is among the top 17 percent for cumulative playing time in the majors in this class of players, AND was on an active major-league roster for at least 86 days in the previous season.”

Without looking up the definition I was kinda hoping it was based on OBPS or OBPS+ which he may not fall into the top 17%. At the same time if we sent him down for the rest of the year (which I’m not suggesting) he may not fall into this category.

by RampantRedsFan on Jun 29, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the Reds gambled and lost because everyone else was gambling too

It sucks, but maybe this will prod them to lock him up to a reasonable deal.*

  • Reasonable because he’s not proven himself to be a star YET.

"i may be an idiot but i’m correct." -- 'tHan

by jch24 on Jun 29, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

the only thing that would prevent him from getting super 2 status, I believe

is if he is sent back to the minors for more than 20 days. Otherwise, his big league clock keeps ticking, even if he goes on the the DL.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'm curious

as to why you think bruce and zimmerman are a good comparison. Zimmerman had far better numbers at that point in his career.

by Daedalus on Jun 29, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't say far better

At the end of ‘08 (last pre-arb year), Zimmerman had a career 110 OPS+ that had declined the last two years. He was also coming off a shoulder injury. Bruce is right now at a 104, which should go up some before the end of the season. He’ll also have increased it every year he’s played.

But speaking of Zimmerman, I don’t think he was ever a Super Two which is what I had assumed from the post. Not that it makes a huge difference. Andre Ethier settled with the Dodgers in ’09 before his Super Two for 3.1M, so in the end Bruce should get something around 3 or 4M.

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zimmerman was NOT a Super Two

I didn’t mean to imply that. I was just comparing Bruce to Zimmerman’s first arbitration

chairman of the committee

by boobsinho on Jun 29, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

Traditionally Super Two’s make less than normal first year arb players. I think I’ve read that the general rule of thumb is 20/40/60/80, but I think there’s a lot of variance with Super Two guys (see Ryan Howard).

by ken on Jun 29, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is the last thing i did on a long day, so i wanted to come up with a quick comparison and Zimmerman looked pretty good without trying too hard

but looking at it now, they’re not too far off, with a cursory comparison. Looking at their age 21-23 seasons, Zimmerman’s OPS+s were 114, 107 and 102, and Bruce’s were 97, 100, 119 (so far). Bruce already has 52 home runs compared with Zimmerman’s 58, and Bruce still has the rest of the season to catch up. They strike out at about the same rate, although Zimmerman walks a lot more. They’re not the same player, you’re right, but I don’t think their arbitration values would be too far off.

chairman of the committee

by boobsinho on Jun 29, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw a couple of people mention this on twitter

but it should be made clear that being a Super Two does not mean that free agency will come a season earlier. All it means is that the player will get 4 years of arbitration, not 3.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Jun 29, 2010 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

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