Red Reposter - Philadelphia Makes Baseball Not So Fun Anymore
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 11:59 AM EDT
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Red Reposter's Red Meat brought to you by Big Montana Mike's Steakhouse and Baked Potatery. "Big Montana Mike's: It smells like meat in here." - 2.31 - Aroldis Chapman's K/BB ratio so far this season. He has 30 Ks and 13 BBs in 26 total innings. He's striking out more than a batter an inning, which is spectacular, but a 4.5 BB/9 is kinda troubling. I'd really like to see him get that down around 3 before he gets The Call.
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The big story today is the Phillie phan who ran out on the field
and was tasered by security. The kid is only 17 so they aren't releasing his name, but the picture to the right has been seen by millions of eyes already this morning. It raises some concerning issues that rarely rear their ugly heads in our escapist dream world of sports revelry.
Firstly, is this really an appropriate response from the authorities in such an event? Running out onto the field, while silly, is still as much a sporting tradition as getting fighting drunk or heckling the opposing team. Sure it's juvenile, but it's harmless and good for a laugh (especially if your team is being humiliated). Using a taser to stop this guy seems like brutal and excessive force. What's wrong with the chase-'em-down-and-tackle-'em technique that has been used for ages? That's the best part! Tasering the guy makes it much more serious.
Of course, that's not even the most concerning aspect of this whole drama. Using the taser got me thinking of something much more dire. What if someone were to run out onto the field at a game with much more malicious intentions than winning a bet? Our Houses of Sports Worship are most vulnerable targets for such an attack. How can we stop something like that? The stark realization I came to is that a taser, while seemingly brutal when used on a stupid kid, is next to useless in stopping someone more devious. There is nothing we can do to stop such a thing from happening, unless we treat our ball fields like airports, that is. -
Mike Leake was satisfied with his performance last night
but says he can do better. "They got underneath my balls for the most part," Leake said. "I didn't get as many groundballs as I hoped to. It seemed like they liked the low ball. They dropped their hands down to it tonight. Francoeur was a good example in the second. I had to mix and match a little more today." His ERA is now down to 2.94. -
Nick Masset had a good night last night
pitching two scoreless innings. He's been Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Run-and-Hide-When-He-Comes-to-the-Mound-Because-He's-Gonna-Blow-the-GD-Game so far this year, so hopefully this performance can lead to some stability. "This can be a confidence booster for me," he said. "This has been roller coaster year for me so far. But I’ve felt great. I go out there and give it my all. Everything is working well. It’s matter of executing and getting the job done." -
Tim Dierkes at MLBTR has the payroll breakdown for next year
The bottom line is that even if the Reds decline to re-up any of their free agents-to-be and decline all club options, they will only have ~$10 mil to work with. If this team is going to give us the 2011 playoff appearance for which we've been holding our collective breath, the next 6-8 months are going to be critical. -
Chris Dickerson had surgery yesterday to repair his wrist
The prognosis looks decent, as he is only expected to miss four to six weeks. God speed, Mr. Lorax! -
RLN passing this along from Baseball Prospectus
Devin Mesoraco and Neftali Soto are donning the tools of ignorance in Lynchburg, and each has impressed so far this season. If either or both of these guys work out it would be a major plus for this organization.
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Former Reds' #2 hitter/SS Alex Gonzalez is showing unprecedented power to start this season
smacking eight homers so far while piling up 1.3 WAR. To compare, Orlando Cabrera has accumulated -0.2 WAR so far this year, as he's been just a shade under replacement-level. Now, I'm not saying the Reds should have re-signed Gonzo instead of Lando, but damn if it isn't frustrating. You can rest assured though that he won't keep up this pace, as he's striking out at an alarming rate, not walking at all, and won't hit 40+ homers. So there's that. -
The Sporting News has their latest power rankings
and the Reds come in at #21, up 7 spots on the strength of the road trip. We should play the Astros more often. -
Al Yellon at Bleed Cubbie Blue had a chance to interview the imitable Bill James
Here's a taste:
"BCB: What’s the next thing about baseball that you don’t know that you’re going to study?
Bill: College baseball. College baseball a few years ago was an awful spectator sport. I don’t know if you know that. The games just dragged on and it seemed like they were deliberately disrespectful to the fans. It seems like it’s a lot closer to being a spectator sport now and I think it might catch on."
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They got under Leake's balls... sigh.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
by crolfer on May 4, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I just saw that pic somewhere else and LOL'd
I can’t believe you didn’t caption it.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
im not really sure what to say about it
im in a serious and contemplative mood about it, so i didnt want to joke. i figured i’d leave it blank and let you caption it yourself if you like.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The situation and caption aside
it’s a really nice picture.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I don't have a problem with tasering fans who run out on the field
Especially in Philly, which has a tradition of fans getting out of hand. They did try to tackle this guy, but he was too fast and eluded them, running around the outfield.
This is the kind of situation a taser is for: to stop a fleeing suspect without using lethal force.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
agreed
Tasering Plillie Phans is okay.
by Eastwindquinn on May 4, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure the folks over at Amazin' Avenue would agree with you.
And probably rec you for this sentiment.
Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that.
It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar.
by RedsMasochist on May 4, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
How could they not catch him?
He’s 17, so you know he’s runnin’ like a fool with his pants on the ground!
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
well
If you look at the photos, the stadium security guys and cops look rather…um…jolly. Maybe they need to be in better shape if they’re going to be chasing teenagers around the outfield.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
They could just have Rob Dibble patrol the grounds.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Yeah, maybe they should have one or two in-shape security guys
so they don’t need to use this much force to stop a fleeing 17 year old.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
why have any in-shape people?
The rule when you come to the park, and it’s announced in the PA system, is that going onto the field is a violation. If you aren’t bright enough to understand that, then you probably need to go to some form of detention center.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
To catch those people that need to go into said detention center.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
they did catch the guy, though.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
Sure, you should be appropriately punished.
But would they be justified in killing any fans who ran onto the field?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I bet they told the guy to stop.
That is known as resisting arrest. The next level, according to the cops, is to use non-lethal force, which the Taser qualifies (as).
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
so do rubber bullets and tear gas
neither of which belong on a field.
I didn’t see what happened this time around, so I don’t know if tasering was justified here or not. But yeah, it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to get security guards who could run. We don’t need roided-up Blackwater thugs, but non-lethal force is often really, really, un cool.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
It's not non-lethal.
It’s less lethal than shooting, sure.
There are times when such force is justified, but some idiot kid running around a baseball field? Don’t tase him, bro!
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I say tase him
get him off the field ASAP, so we can play ball.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Are security guards really cops?
You can’t treat this as if this is a police action taken according to laws that have been created through an, at least vaguely, democratic process.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
If he's got a gun and being paid, he's a "cop" in my book
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Cops are agents of the government, and are, and should be authorized to use greater force than a private citizen.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
But not subject to the same rules and regulations.
I think this was an off-duty police officer, though, judging by the firearm he’s carrying.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
this guy was a cop
according to the press coverage.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Was he at the ballpark as part of his official capacity to enforce the rules of the the park?
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
yes
And the Philadelphia police say he acted appropriately.
Is it unusual to have police at Reds games?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
We have police at Kroger
And at Reds games. Hamilton county sheriffs, actually.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Really? This is weird to me.
I wonder at what point a cop is allowed to intervene, when the issue is breaking the rules of the establishment.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
They're usually around the exits, who knows why
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
or crowding Penn Station with submachine guns
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
It makes me feel so much safer
as I eat my crappy sandwich!
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I see what you did there
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
before SWB Yankees games
They announce that running out onto the field is trespassing, and you will be immediately arrested and may get jail time.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Ah, right, I always get so caught up in trespass as a tort, I blow by the criminal statute.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I backed out of a summer job this summer
after they had gave me hours, got me a supervisor to change to work in a field I’m interested in, and generally bent over backwards for me. They’re real upset at me, but my first thought was “But I haven’t signed and turned in a contract yet! They have no right!”
And that’s when I realized that I’ve become a terrible person.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Yup, breach of contract and being a jerk are totally different things.
:P
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
No.
Chris Heisey ran one down in the bullpen last night, and another guy stood right in front of my section the whole game.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
There are usually some Cincinnati PD around
you see them in the dugout, and the bullpen and wondering around the park.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
it wasn't that much force
He got up and walked off the field shortly after he was tasered.
And he wasn’t exactly “fleeing.” He was running in circles around the field. Literally running rings around his pursuers.
Usually when fans run out on the field, they don’t run around in circles like that. They streak across the field, or they go up to a player to talk to ask for autograph or whatever.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
So I see this as an effort ,.
to support this poor innocent victim of police brutality.
Where did the common sense drop off your dew-drop feel-sorry bandwagon?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Tackling the guy is non-lethal force too.
We’re just commenting that tackling seems like a more appropriate method of control than bringing a taser onto a field.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
The rule is clear
Stay off the playing field. Where in that rule is there confusion?
Stop defending this kid.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
no.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
The rule is clear.
Don’t exceed the speed limit.
Why shouldn’t we tase you on the spot for speeding?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
If you don't stop for a police officer who has on his lights
you are evading arrest. They can put out stop sticks. If you run, they can Tase you, yes … for resisting.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
He wasn't threatening.
He wasn’t fleeing into the stands. He was just running around like a jackass.
So yes, appropriate punishment is justified, but no, further force is not.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Taser is considered appropriate non-lethal force
It has been upheld in many appeals courts all the way to the top.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Okay...
Not all of us agree with every ruling they make in appeals courts. Apparently that means what we think doesn’t matter.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I don't agree that murder is always illegal
so … you want to make your own laws?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Murder and using a taser are two incredibly different situations.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
yes
but not liking the laws is what you are asserting. That what you want isn’t what the courts deliver.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Well, it is a reasonable point
that it’s just not as cut and dried as you’re making it out to be. This is a legal gray area, and reasonable people have different opinions on whether this is appropriate force.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I would have preferred that Taser wasn't used
The fact is, the weapon has been invented and given to police as a deterrent to more lethal force. The question about whether it’s necessary for a punk running amok on the field … well, probably not.
Fact is again, the device is legal and deemed appropriate. In Philly, this may take on some meaning. Cops aren’t as inclined to worry about rights as they are to ending the problem. That’s what cops do. Lawyers decide the other stuff.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
i should read that next week
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
by justin007000 on May 6, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Police officers always have discretion.
They can use force to the legal limit, but it’s never inappropriate to argue that an officer should have acted differently within his discretion.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Is it unreasonable for me to not like that homosexual couples can't have a legal union in most states?
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Murder is by definition illegal.
But not all homicides are murder. And it is totally reasonable to argue that some homicides shouldn’t be punished.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Ah ... we skewer the argument.
The issue was whether some laws aren’t what we want, even when we want law and order.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
OK, its legal to do bribery
as long as you’re doing it in another country. This isn’t law and order. This is a law that many people don’t want. But it’s there. And it’ll be there for a really long time. It’s probably morally reprehensible, but people disagree with me. So you can fight the law or you can say “Well shit, this is the law.” You have a couple of options here.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Again, anecdotal comments
that deflect from my original premise that the Taser was deemed appropriate by the courts and Crolfer’s comment that some court decisions aren’t about what we want as a society. If we stay inside that corral, this will make more sense.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
But the real context was that we were expressing that the taser was not used appropriately in this instance.
And you told us to stop because it’s legal.
Stop defending this kid.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
is is appropriate use
that is the point. It’s been upheld as appropriate.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
you seem to be saying that since some court somewhere once said it's appropriate, then it is, and that's it
everyone else seems to be discussing whether or not it actually was appropriate, instead of letting some vague prior court case be the final word. Correct?
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
andromache already rendered it as 'OK'
She’s like the smartest person in RR…so
Potential doesn't win games.
Actually, it was the Supreme Court
not just one “somewhere.”
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
slavery was once (and many times) upheld in court as appropriate
end of story
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is a really lame anecdote.
sorry, but it is … and you know it.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
I've looked and looked and can't find a thing about beaers in this post
Potential doesn't win games.
that's kinda the point
you have been arguing that legality is the only issue here, and im demonstrating that that line of reasoning is ignorant at best and dangerous at worst.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It is all I have to go on
I assume the kid knew that going onto the field was a violation of the rules. Maybe he didn’t.
I assume that he was told to get off the field. Maybe they didn’t tell him.
That is all I assume. Beyond that, I know that using a Taser is a legal remedy. That is all I know.
Invoking slavery is akin to saying I once was allowed to beat my wife because the bitch didn’t put out … and I could drive totally fucked up drunk because, well, that’s what real men do ….
This isn’t about social equality or social justice. It’s about stopping somebody for running onto a ball field. How does anybody in this group think that should be done?
Tasers and slavery are pretty much not connected here.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
youre kinda being a turd and not admitting that it's OK to discuss whether something is appropriate rather than just screaming "It's LEGAL! It's LEGAL!"
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
boobs, it is appropriate
it is an alternative to bashing somebody with a billy club.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
there! that's an opinion!
other people here have other opinions, and theyre not wrong just because tasing is legal. get what i’m saying?
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
well, I am so far the only person ...
… who is saying that the kid ran onto the field, breaking the law … so far, everybody else is calling it dumb adolescent behavior. Can I at least get an “amen” about that?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
nobody is saying it is illegal
because that part is stupidly obvious. do you want me to tell you the sun rose in the east this morning? of course it is illegal. the question here though was whether or not the response was ethical.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
i think everyone else is starting with all that as an assumption
i think if we voted, everyone would agree that the kid was acting inappropriately and broke the law. but THEN, the discussion is, does the punishment fit the crime and is it a good idea to tase the kid, regardless of its legality
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
Exactly, if i were a judge, I would find for the officer in 5 goddamn seconds.
That doesn’t mean I don’t strongly believe he should have acted otherwise.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I am not screaming anybody down here ...
… or at least I hope not … I don’t have any allies to this point. I am not defending the Taser, generally, and I wish it had never been invented.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
ahhh!
another opinion! now youre getting the hang of it john!
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Debate
is staying inside the parameters … which was why I lashed out at the slavery comment. It has nothing to do with this and instigates a series of attempts to define ethics, morality and decency.
This ballpark event is specifically about behavior of the miscreant and behavior of people who are paid to stop that sort of behavior.
I have yet to see a bonafide solution to this problem other than to tackle the kid. I think some here would argue that tackling the kid could have harmed him worse.
So if we can’t tackle him, what do we do? Does nobody have that answer?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
"what do we do?"
this is the heart of the matter.
the slavery comment is relevant and i will again attempt to explain why. you have been arguing for over an hour now that the only factor worth discussing in this issue is whether it was legal or not. your argument, and im summarizing, is “the kid did something illegal, and the police/security guard did something legal.”
my slavery comment in relevant because at one time in this country slavery was legal. of course, we all know slavery is wrong, but if we were to only judge things as right or wrong based on whether or not they are legal, then slavery would still be legal to this day. if it is legal, then how can we say it is wrong?
this business with the tasering is not a legal issue, but rather an ethical issue. we came to the conclusion that slavery was unethical and eventually changed the law because of that. sure, the taser is legal now, but that doesnt mean it is an ethical recourse in a situation such as this.
and that really is the question. was the police/security guard doing something ethical when he tasered the kid? that is what we’ve been discussing this afternoon.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I say they shoot 'em down
With strategically placed water cannons, Selma-style. Unless it’s a hot day out, then there’d be trouble.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Water is our most important resource!
Don’t waste it!
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
POTABLE water is our most important resource
Spray ’em with poo water!
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
heres a thing
water conservation people… what the fuck is that? There is exactly the same amount of water on the planet as there was a billion years ago. its a renewable resource!
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
well they took some of it to outer space
and left it on the moon.
I can’t say for sure if this is a big deal, an OK deal or a pretty bad deal.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Are you asking seriously?
The problem isn’t the total amount of water, but where it is (and whether it’s useful). Oh, and:
(1) We have a lot more people around than we did a billion years ago
(2) The easy-to-use water sources have been used up in many places
(3) Purifying water requires a ton of energy and cost—let alone desalination, which is orders of magnitude more costly.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
by Gray on May 4, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i understand about where it is
and getting water to people far from a clean water source. but i refute everything else you said.
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
There are a couple different things going on.
Not only are there more people, people are using more water. You said that water is a renewable resource, but there are many areas in the united states where users are “groundwater mining” – that is, using more water than the amount that falls as rain. (This was not a problem until the mid 1900s, when rural electrification and the spread of better pump technology drastically increased the depth to which people to draw water from. Eventually, the underground aquifer dries up. So, after the water is gone, people have to rely on whatever storage mechanisms they have for rainwater. A lot of times, land subsidence, caused by overusing the aquifer will permanently decrease the amount of water stored by the soil. This may cause the water to flow faster out of an area – into a river – where if you don’t draw it immediately, it passes on to the next area.
Additionally, there’s a lot of pollution now. Human excrement, and industrial waste are what you have in both groundwater and surface water sources. It takes a lot of energy to separate the water from the pollution.
You could rely on natural processes, but increasing populations make that impossible – the rain simply isn’t falling fast enough.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
there is truthfully as much water on Earth now as ever
the actual resource is a finite amount. Discussion of usage and its value as a product are not the same thing.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
OK the water gun
maybe not the best solution but it’s the first one I’ve seen other than “tackle the kid,” which was either not easy or not sensible. So if we can’t tackle a kid who is running at full speed and we can’t Tase him, what do we do? I have asked that and nobody has a solution other than to point up that the proper ethics wasn’t used.
How would YOU have dealt with this problem, given the dynamics? There are only so many of you and if you’ve been on a baseball field, it’s a fairly big place.
Help me see the light. Solve this problem.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Only hire people as security who are physically fit
Seriously, it should be in the job description that they’re able to run down someone on the field with help from five other people. If you can’t, don’t apply.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
by jch24 on May 4, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Marines could do it
again, we are asking people to do something that would not happen if people didn’t violate the rules.
Taking it in that direction, I always found it interesting that the “best laws” ever passed always came with a penalty for people who didn’t abide by them.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Yeah, the Marines got nothing else going on these days
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
you could just stop chasing him
he’d probably stop running, then start playing up the crowd, at which point security could probably saunter up to his drunk self and nab him.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
You have more allies than you think.
So far at least four people have said the officer acted appropriately. I personally don’t know enough about tasers to know who I agree with. The discussion is good, and it’s good to hear both sides!
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I do believe
Taser should be used for real criminals. I do wonder why ballpark security has the devices but it is Philly and they used to park their horses around the field.
My position is that as nonlethal remedy, it is superior to some other more draconian measures. Or so it would seem.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Muffins
all officers are tased as a part of their taser training. While it sucks to be tased, it won’t alter this kid in anyway. I feel like for something like this it is appropriate.
It is weird I am on this side of the fence considering my anti cop attitudes.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
what about for the 300 people who have died from a taser? do you think they were not altered in any way?
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
Also this
we have no idea what the kid told the cops as he was running. All of us have made a series of assumptions based on some really thin information. I am defending the cops behavior on a rather straight one-dimensional level and find myself arguing with people who have made their own assumptions and come up with the opinion that I am somehow the bad guy for … what …
saying the Taser is legal? God forbid I could use THAT argument for anything when it’s clear that the mean old nasty brutal Philly cops are just overbearing in their handling of a misguided young teenager who decided to have a little harmless fun.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
now you are intentionally misrepresenting people's arguments
your argument all along has been that the taser is legal. but as has been explained a dozen times, we are not debating legality here. we are debating morality, which is totally different.
im not arguing with your stand here, im arguing with your method. you are trying to have a different (and much less fruitful) conversation than the rest of us.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I decided I didn't want
.. to much get into the morality issue because it’s not as easy to define, for me at least. I stop on that at the source of personal responsibility … that the miscreant violated the rule and knew better. Anything that happens beyond that is remedy, less connected to morality. Morality is a different issue to me.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
but if we go this direction
and we want to debate whether the Taser is or isn’t a sensible/ethical tool, that’s to decide what would replace it as a crime deterrent that is more sensible/ethical.
I would agree that the Taser can be evil in the wrong hands, a practical tool in the right hands and probably useless in most cases of serious social unrest.
Until the Taser is abolished, which could someday happen, and it will go the way of the machine gun, which obviously no longer exists, we have it to deal with. We need to make sure its users are good people. Yeah, right.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
so because the kid violated a rule
he has whatever happens after that coming to him and whatever that is cannot be called moral or immoral?
what?
we can all agree the kid was wrong to run on the field. but that doesnt mean the security has free reign to do whatever the hell it takes to teach im a lesson. talk about draconian…
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are implying
motive by the security police.
All I can assume was that their job was to get him off the field. Not clear on how they should have done that, we have only the fact to go on that they Taser’d him. Other sensible approaches could have been attempted, probably were. He chose to ignore that at the risk, perhaps, of being told he would be Taser’d if he didn’t. Maybe he doesn’t speak English.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
tons of assumptions
we dont know what the security told him, and perhaps you assume correctly and they threatened to taser him if he didnt cooperate.
but even in that event, it doesnt change the over-arching conversation about whether or not using a taser to put down someone like this is ethical or not. is it more ethical to warn someone about the taser if you are going to use it? yes. but that doesnt mean it is ethical to taser him.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I can also assume
that the youth could easily have been established as a fun-seeker without too much of an investigation. Now, assuming that, one would presume that as a group the cops could have been aware that using a Taser might provoke an outcry.
Again, they work on a policy, that’s what police do and they have a chain of command that sets it up. We need to go farther up the food chain before we condemn these cops, who were basically “doing their jobs,” as annoying to me sometimes as that can be.
That’s the only level on which I defend them, that and the presumed notion that Taser is, again, a legal appropriate remedy, according to policy.
Not giving them Tasers would make more sense in retrospect. One doesn’t have that to work with, though, when police are told to beware of serious security issues. They may not be allowed to evaluate those issues on the fly.
Neither can Jonny Gomes.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
ha.. erase the word 'it' from the subject.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
OK I'm bored with this discussion....
lets move on to more important stuff…
Why are Canadians
not allowed to Vote
Potential doesn't win games.
im starting to think you are being intentionally obstinate
i certainly hope you have an opinion on what is right and wrong outside of “what is legal or not”.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
skip it about it being legal
all I said is that it has been considered appropriate. what is or isn’t legal about that is a lawyer story.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
It has been considered legally appropriate.
No court in the US has jurisdiction over what is morally appropriate.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I haven't endeavored
… to hazard onto the side of morality here … if you want to go into that debate, the morality starts with personal responsibility and that falls on the pepetrator of the incident.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
That's not really true.
I’m not saying it’s never appropriate: there are certainly cases when someone is a threat and does something justifying this force. An idiot running around a field is not such a case.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
The rule was ... I bet
… stop and get off the field. That was (I bet) the least offensive warning that could be given. The kid ignored that. I bet they yelled it several times.
If being an idiot qualifies as good fun, then we should all get to do that. The rule is, no running on the field. That would be enough to keep me from doing it. If I ignored that and got Tased, well … gee …
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
The taser might do less damage than tackling
if you tackle the kid you may break some bones, tasering him stops him immediately.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
because you can't tase people in cars?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
That's why I only crack my window open a little when I get Terry-stopped.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
So this is really about
being down on the pig and supporting a hapless victim of a Nazi brutality society. Woe be us for not defending the downtrodden against this evil Hitlerian regime.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Gawd I wish I could access my photobucket account right now
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
I'm not.
I’m just not condoning the use of a taser. The kid made a stupid choice, yeah. I’m not saying he was right. I’m just saying that perhaps tasing him wasn’t the best possible plan of action.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I bet the plan was for him to stop and be escorted off the field
I bet the cops said that to him.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
WHY ARE WE YELLING?
IM THIRSTY! I THINK I’LL GO GET A DR PEPPER!
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
YOU WANNA GO SPLITSIES ON IT? I DONT THINK I CAN DRINK THE WHOLE THING.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, I just turned my own stomach
I’m done.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Don't do it naked, or we'll hit you with pepper spray.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
You could do more long term damage tackling him
he goes down the wrong way and his leg, arm, ankle, and/or wrist is broken.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
and a taser wouldn't teach him?
I love ya, crolfs, but you’re not making any sense here. A taser on a 17-year old is not likely to injure him seriously (and it didn’t, he walked off the field.) But a cop catches and tackles him, and if he’s injured there, it’s ok?
I don’t get how you draw those lines.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I was being facetious...
I was getting sick of the whole argument.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
ah. I see.
I knew you weren’t that short-sighted. After all, you are at a prestigious institution.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I agree that a tasering is excessive,
especially when it was clear he was just a teenage goofball, but I think the recent close call in NYC has everyone on edge. Someone who’s willing to run around on the field and disrupt a game might be unhinged enough to do something to cause real harm. Using a taser only really bridges a 5 ft gap or so, but I can understand the vigilance.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is a good point
Philly is close enough to Times Square for them to feel edgy, and I’m sure they were told to be on high alert for this game
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
Hey! Did I ever tell you I went to Turkey!
About 10 years or so back, some Fenerbahce fan walked onto the field with a knife during the big rivalry between them and Galatasaray. The police (and Turkey back then was essentially a police state) managed it with nightsticks…mostly because tasers weren’t invented yet.
Still, I think the “on edge” argument is bull. The odds of some gawky dude in a “Phillies World Champions” shirt being a terrist is pretty low. I’m of the opinion that you handle skinny drunks with kid gloves, but that may be because I am a skinny drunk.
And if we could ever get GABP to look like a broken television like Fener fans do, I’d be all for it.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
so you're in favor of racial profiling, then?
Because what you are implying is that if he had been middle eastern in a turban, they’d have had the right to be edgy about it. There was nothing particularly crazy looking about the guy in Times Square either.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
At least this didn't happen at a Diamondbacks game
by Brendanukkah on May 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I was about to say something like this
though probably a little less snidely. It had nothing to do with his size and whiteness. He was an idiot running loops on a field. Not, as another commenter mentioned, running towards the pitcher with a knife or carrying a suspicious bag or anything.
He did nothing to suggest that he was any threat to anyone other than the fat cop’s self esteem.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
So what is the ballclub's policy on this?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
that is irrelavant
this is an ethical issue, not a legal issue.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not irrelevant
If they say that stopping a violator with a Taser is inside club policy, then the men/women who hire on as security are told they can do that. If the team says, no weapon, lethal or not, then it’s clear what policy is.
The baseball stadium is probably considered private property.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
right
but like i said, that is irrelevant. we arent discussing what the club’s policy is or isnt, we are discussing whether that policy is ethical or not.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Policy is not established by the security on field
Where that is derived is the source of policy only. Inside that, the Taser has been defended at all legal levels as appropriate. This is not considered unreasonable force by any court in the land.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Right, but like Scrabbles said, we're discussing whether it's ethical or not
Legal =/= ethical.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And as Cy pointed out
just because you haven’t signed a contract doesn’t mean that you’re not a dick.
Running onto the field was illegal and the use of a taser is generally legal in similar cases. Nobody’s disputing that.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
thanks, dick.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
not arguin'
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
grrrrr
like i said, whether it’s legal or not is irrelevant. we arent discussing whether it is legal or not. we are discussing whether it is ethical or not. do you not know the difference?
im not asking that to be a dick, im really just trying to clarify.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
ethics is an issue
telling people not to go onto the field is OK with me and telling them to get off the field is also OK. When they do not abide by the rules, then the ethics of how to proceed should be … what?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
I mean, that seems to have worked well in the past.
Tasers just totally screw up the whole tradition!
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
/Tasrmetrics
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
by boobs on May 4, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Tackle the kid
dislocate his shoulder, send him to ER, get lawsuit.
Maybe we could just spray him with soapy lotion.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Well, one possibility could be what I argued way upthread
which you dismissed because tasering is generally legal.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Ethics here ...
… not defined by anybody other than to say that what was done was not ethical. We need to define ethics first and see how it applies.
Ethics is to maintain order?
Ethics is for all of us to sustain a peaceful society?
Slippery slope here when some folks on both sides of the issue interpret it to their own whim.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
It is a strange conjunction here - ethics or law?
I’m not interested in the hypothetical ideal when some dumbass kid is running out onto the field and could potentially cause real harm to some one…the only hypothetical I care about is that potential harm.
Potential doesn't win games.
what really rattles me
is that if someone were actually to run onto the field with a backpack bomb, a taser would do nothing to stop him. that’s why i think the taser seems so out of place. it’s too much force for a kid like this, but not enough for something really serious.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't get it
why would a taser do nothing to stop a guy with a backpack bomb?
I guess if he has it on dead-man switch, or a timer, it doesn’t matter. But then again, why would a terrorist run on to the field, away from the crowds? Unless he really doesn’t like Shane Victorino.
otherwise, i’d think the 10zillion volts would knock down a terrorist the same as a doofy-looking kid, right? They don’t teach you taser-immunity in the terrorist camps.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
not in the least
I don’t care if the tazeree had a beard and a salwar kameez. He’s almost certainly not a national security threat. Unless you think Phillies fans are, in which case I won’t argue with you.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
the point has been made, though, that a big sporting event would be a great place for a terrorist attack
precisely because of the number of people and the lack of security.
FTR, I think the tazer was inapporopriate, mainly for what Chuck said above. It’s too much for a dumb kid, but would be useless against a true terrorist. The point, though, is that any dumbass running on the field has to be taken seriously even if he’s not acting “threatening”. At what point do you decide his is being threatening? How long do you give him until you realize he’s harmless?
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
It wouldn't be an issue if they had cops standing around
who were capable of tackling a 17 year old.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
true, but getting onto the field is the issue, and it's ridiculously easy to do that at most parks.
If someone was intent on mass destruction, they wouldn’t need much time.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
Wait, why would you run onto the field to inflict mass destruction?
Run away from the people? I don’t get it.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I can't see any mass destruction happening on the field.
maybe at the concession stand.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
You obviously weren't a Reds fan in the early part of the last decade
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
by jch24 on May 4, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we were discussing the issue of the kid potentially being a terrorist
or anyone who runs on to the field potentially being a terrorist
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
I doubt anybody considered him a terrorist
It wouldn’t take much time to ID the kid as a wild teen, probably making a bet with somebody.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Unfortunately in this day and age (if in any) it is impossible to know the motive of anyone running onto the field at a pro baseball game.
It is not prudent to to allow anyone to run around for the field for a time while deciding if this person is harmless or not. If that person has a knife, for instance and would attack a player or even with out a weapon attack a player or umpire then the Home club would really be up a shit creek…a hurt player, an enormous law suit and fans not wanting to attend future games.So light tasering may be necessary if the criminal is not quickly apprehended.
Potential doesn't win games.
Profiling has its place
from an efficiency perspective. You have limited time and resources to devote to trying to identify and neutralize threats. So you have to focus on where you can make the most impact. If 99% of terrorists are from Iceland and wear New York Islanders jerseys, I’m going to respond differently when that person does something suspicious.
The kid that ran out on the field doesn’t look like a terrorist (narrowly defined) but the fact that he stepped on to a field and ran around suggests he’s capable of other erratic behavior. And context matters – the NYC thing definitely in the minds of security details at any baseball game in the eastern seaboard.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Huge bummer for my poor Muslim Pakistani roomates who happen to live in NYC, btw
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.
I said I thought it was excessive
but it’s outrageous to think law enforcement in any major US city isn’t on edge right now – and has been at relative levels of intensity since 9/11.
I think you’re defining terrorist pretty narrowly. At the risk of sending this discussion off the rails, school shooters are often skinny, gawky teenagers. Domestic terrorism and random acts of violence are more of a threat than international terrorism. I can understand why law enforcement would want to air on the side of caution, though tasering probably gave them no real benefit.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
random acts of violence?
So can Brett Myers get tazered every time he steps onto the field?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
best. promotion. ever.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
by nycredsfan on May 4, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's not a serious line of argument is it?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
no, its not. see below.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
What I read here is consistently
defending miscreant behavior because we find the Taser as offensive. If they’d tackled the guy, they probably would have hurt him worse. So could we just say “touch football” is applicable?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
I don't think anyone's defending miscreant behavior.
But I disapprove of the use of the taser for certain levels of miscreanting, so there’s bound to be some indication of whether this situation falls under that category or not.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I see several posters here defending miscreant behavior
… if you read back on it, it’s considered harmless fun.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
I feel like tossing beer into the air (just the beer, not the container) in the upper decks of the Linc should be fine
The people below me and the stadium security did not see it that way. Even though it’s harmless fun/miscreant behavior.
I don't think they're defending his miscreant behavior
so much as ranking it on a scale of other miscreant behaviors. I don’t see anyone saying this kid shouldn’t be punished. It’s a matter of which punishment is relevant.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He should have to catch Aroldis Chapman fastballs
with an outfielder’s glove.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not non-lethal force!
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right.
Is it worthy of being shot? Definitely not.
Is it worthy of being tackled and banned from the stadium? Definitely.
In between there’s some gray area that we hadn’t seen until now.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I really think its just the new technology
that nobody’s figured out how to use yet. Tasers, sound rays, dizziness strobes are all non-lethal, but all strike bystanders as very Orwellian.
Some are, some aren’t, I really have no idea. I just don’t think that the ballpark is the place to find out. (Even though, now that I think about it, a dizziness strobe might actually be really effective).
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
set phasers on stun!
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Isn't there a pitch frequency that causes people to crap themselves?
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Red Reporter should definitely be put in charge of ballpark security
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
every time Lincoln comes in from the pen
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
by bbjones on May 5, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tasers can be lethal
Last year at Miami, where I am in school, a kid was tasered by the police and actually died from it. Granted, he was pretty drunk I believe but still, tasers can be pretty serious stuff
Yeah, I've heard multiple stories like that...
Hmm… Maybe tackling wouldn’t be such a bad idea.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
This is the amnesty international report on taser deaths.
Here. I think the numbers are 351 since 2001.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
351 out of how many?
Don’t cops have to be tased as a part of their training?
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
does it matter how many?
the argument being made is that tasering is a non-lethal form of submission. this pretty clearly refutes that.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It could be
Improper use of Taser is potentially lethal. In which case, one would ask, how do we know if it is?
I have never asked a cop about this so I assume they all would say the same thing. I do know of one case where the Taser was a contributor because of unrelated health issues that the cop didn’t know about. His department cleared him of wrongdoing. I did not hear if there was a civil case.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
sure it does
the rate of death due to tasering should be compared to the rate of death due to being jumped on an tackled by a huge dude — which is probably also non-zero.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
I think you're misreading
No one is “defending” the kid. No one is saying, “leave him alone! He’s just a dumb kid!” The issue is the way adults choose to deal with it.
If a kid mouths off to me in class and I rear back and bitch slap him, knocking out a couple of his teeth (and believe me, I’ve wanted to), it’s not defending the kid if I lose my job over it.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
I haven't misread this.
The argument is that the cops are basically cruel and harsh against something that could have been laughed off the field given enough time.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
If by cruel and harsh, you mean lazy, and by laugh you mean tackle, then yes.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no, the argument is that the cops could have dealt with the situation in a more appropriate way
a kid being a punk does not give the cops free reign, nor does it give me free reign to do whatever I want to mis-behaving kids in my classroom.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
Also, Aaron Harang
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on May 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Negative reinforcement is definitely the way to jumpstart our offense.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Seriously... Don't give my mom a taser. Please. Pretty please.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
You better hope LB doesn't get one...
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on May 4, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh god if any of my exs had a taser
I would have been shocked so many times by now my brain might have turned to mush.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
free reign?
How do we know what they did first?
They told the kid to stop.
They chased him, probably telling him to stop.
What was the next step? Wait till he got tired and sat down?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Or bring out the PA National Guard
surround the kid.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Well, what if they couldn't even get close enough to tase the kid?
What do you think they should have done at that point?
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Shot him. Duh. He poses a threat. Therefore it's within their legal bounds to shoot him, making it perfectly okay.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Then they'd have to bring in the Federal Marshalls to deal with a violation of the Mutant Registration Act.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
/District 9'd?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
My guess, he's going to leave the field
on his own, given enough time.
I don’t like the use of the Taser and defend it only because the court said it is OK to use as a deterrent. If they had another method … say … a large net … would that have been different?
All I know is cops are told what to do by their superiors. Blaming these cops is not where the issue should go. This is about policy that came about after the Bush years where are supposed to be afraid of everybody.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Or gladiators.
Or Planet of the Apes.
by Brendanukkah on May 4, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The net making industry would really benefit.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
fine, so conceding that,
it’s still very reasonable to argue that the policy is unethical/inappropriate, and that’s not the same as defending the kid, and to just dismiss it by saying “it’s the law, deal with it,” is inadequate.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
I will support you nycredfans on this part of it
… once we define “ethics” in such an incident. Until then, we have
a. what isn’t legal according to what we agreed to when we buy a ticket
b. what the other 40,000 or so fans expect when they buy a ticket
c. some other stuff that makes this reply too long
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
It is almost impossible to define ethics.
It is open to discussion, which is why we have been discussing whether it was right or wrong to tase this harmless miscreant.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
ethics is discussing and deciding what we ought and ought not do
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I reassert
The use of Taser is NOT considered unreasonable force. That has been defended and supported by every U.S. court. and probably by Geneva Convention in some cases.
Beyond that, we are deciding if there was a more “humane” way of dealing with this harmless miscreant.
The cops say they don’t have to imperil their own safety and that has also been supported in courts.
So, what’s the alternative beyond the phantom net I suggested?
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
It has been considered unreasonable force
A federal appeals court this week ruled that a California police officer can be held liable for injuries suffered by an unarmed man he Tasered during a traffic stop. The decision, if allowed to stand, would set a rigorous legal precedent for when police are permitted to use the weapons and would force some law enforcement agencies throughout the state — and presumably the nation — to tighten their policies governing Taser use, experts said.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Not quite
It says the cop can be considered liable for injuries, so in a narrow ruling, not exactly the same thing. It does beg the notion that reconsidering it is valid. So far, that’s in the process, not a decision.
It would define when they can use Taser but it still does not mean it’s not appropriate non-lethal application of police tools.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
But that ruling had to rely on the possibility of tasering being excessive force.
How reasonable or unreasonable the use of force is, has to rely on the context. There is no blanket guarantee that police use of a taser is reasonable force. That is why we’re having this discussion.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I wish they would abolish the Taser
having said that, there are dozens of ways a cop can fuck you up worse … and if they get you surrounded, that club can do some damage.
I guess the fluffy pillow just won’t do.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
how about Business Ethics?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on May 4, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That is an oxymoron anymore
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on May 4, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for Josh Lyman picture
Ashame’d for not getting the reference.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
"There is no such thing as an innocent Gatorade cooler."
by Ash on May 4, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, I looked it up.
The picture was misleading. I’m now only slightly ashamed, because I should probably have seen Billy Madison. Mostly I’m relieved I didn’t miss a West Wing reference.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
An oversized butterfly net would do the trick. Nice.
That being said, I’ve read through all the comments here and honestly can’t tell in any of them who’s getting blamed, cops or policy. It’s a fine line.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
can we just blame the Phillies?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
really, i was just surprised that the cops weren't throwing D-Batteries
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
I recommend tasing.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He was penned in, after all.
If the cops and guards hadn’t all been such fatasses, they wouldn’t have had any trouble tackling him. He had nowhere to go!
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I think the fact that they chased him for what? Half a minute?
That probably shows that he doesn’t pose much of a threat. He’s a stupid kid making a dumb choice.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Defending miscreant behavior
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
Crolfer, remember, next time I call you a stupid kid making a dumb choice, I'm defending you.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
by andromache on May 4, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
What part of "stupid kid making a dumb choice" is defending him?
Did I say he was just looking for a good time? I was saying he’s not a terrorist…
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
So because they were too fat/slow/old to catch him, they can do what they want
So if I have bad classroom management and can’t control kids, it becomes ok for me to hit them? Or to further muddy it, publicly humiliate them? How about emotionally abuse them? Or maybe I could do my job well enough that it doesn’t need to come to that. If it does, maybe I shouldn’t be doing my job.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
try this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5w-7IpI0fI&feature=player_embedded
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
Holy hell!
That was creative but really, really uncalled for!
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
ive been wondering if that was just some old laptop or if it belonged to a student
if it’s the latter, i probably would have walked out, headed to the registrar’s office and dropped the class.
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
they, um, explain it in the caption
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
the thing that explains the video
and then has “NOT….” which explains the context.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Wait, so you're saying
it WASN’T a student’s laptop? Then I take back the “uncalled for” and emphasize the “creative” in my first comment.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess the laptop had a wart problem
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on May 4, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but seriously
I don’t have the stats in front of me (I could get them if you want to drill me on it, I’m just in the middle of real schoolwork right now), but its mathematically impossible to profile violence.
I’m sure all of us have seen someone go onto the field and our first reaction is, “wow, that’s just some goof-off trying to get attention for himself.” And so far, every single time in US Sporting history, it has been. And there’s a whole history of this, from Hank Aaron’s home run (which could be argued to be a great symbol of desegregation) to the kissing bandit, to that dude at the Bengals-Packers game a couple years back.
I just realized that nobody’s mentioned this, but how about when Gamboa was assaulted at Comiskey? There hasn’t been any security changes since then. And that actually really happened. So why does this kid all of the sudden get to be the one that gets hurt, not those two punks? Because we suddenly have the technology to hurt him nowadays?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
I think you're kinda undercutting yourself in mentioning the Gamboa thing
Despite the long history of harmless stunts, it only really takes one Monica Seles stabbing to ruin the “fun.”
This kid gets made an example mostly because everything looks like a nail for someone with a hammer. Because it’s not “deadly force,” police are more inclined to use the taser. I think we agree on that. But you can’t ignore the context. The stakes are higher given the current climate and the margin of error lower. There didn’t always used to be school shootings a perpetual specter of terrorist attack.
I agree that profiling is worthless in a global sense. You can agree that white males are more likely to be serial killers, but that doesn’t get you anywhere. In this case, you know two things: the kid is crazy enough to run out on the field and is able-bodied enough to cause harm. Taken with the context, that would put me “on edge” as a member of the security personnel.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
What I'm attempting to say is,
greater risk hasn’t forced the change, technology has. Even in Comiskey, there isn’t stricter security than there is anywhere else. It happens. There are consequences. But barriers haven’t been put up, police haven’t been brought into the stadium, there’s been a general recognition of “we wont’ let one bad experience turn ballparks into police states.” Even after Gamboa.
However, now police have the opportunity, through the taser, to cause more damage then they used to. So now they feel like they can use it, at least in this instant example. What’s the policeman’s reasoning here? I obviously don’t know, but I doubt he considered the kid a threat, I think he realized that the kid was embarrassing them and his job was to end the standoff as quickly as possible.
I don’t blame the cop himself, I blame the person who gave the cop a taser. I just don’t think escalation of violence is necessary when you can tackle the kid or something. Without the taser, the kid would just be taken off, like the dudes who assaulted Gamboa were.
I don’t think the “climate” has changed to an appreciable degree, I just think the opportunity to wreak violence has. But I don’t think just because technology is out there means it should be used.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
I completely agree on the technology argument
The presence of tasers seems to create need for their use, rather than the inverse.
But if you think the climate hasn’t “appreciably changed,” you’re being kind of obtuse. In terms of actual threat level to any one person anywhere in the country, it’s probably gone from .0000000001 to .00000000012, but it’s situational. Someone acting erratically at a Mets, Yankees, Phillies game is under greater scrutiny due to recent events. School shootings, terrorist attacks and domestic/milita-related terrorism, compounded by technology multiplies their impact both practically and socially, have changed things irrevocably.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, sure
but on what time scale? If you say “in the past 10 years” I absolutely agree with you. If you say “past two years (i.e. the refocus on Afghanistan” I could probably be convinced.
But if you’re going to argue that police really consider the Hutaree, the re-emergence of Batilullah Mahsud, the failed Times Square bombing, in their decision to deal with local crime, even on the Eastern Seaboard, I’m awfully skeptical.
Saying all of this, I should add that my opinions have changed since I left DC. I really don’t get why there’s a desire for a Singularity Theory of crime other than a human instinct for everything to make sense.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Pick any time scale of your choosing
Over the last several decades, security has been heightened steadily in airports and other public spaces in response to any number of perceived threats. There’s a lot of alarmism at work, but it also marks a response response to real vulnerabilities. I don’t know for certain, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that increased vigilance and awareness of threats aboard aircraft plays a role when civilians thwart an on-board attacker.
No one would argue that police officers are making some tactical adjustment based on the latest AfPak policy or the rise of militia activity. That’s reductive. But no one can argue that erratic public behavior isn’t looked at differently now than it was in the past – and that’s informed by threats both real and imagined.
There’s no desire on my part to come up with any unified theory of crime (if that’s what you’re referring to). But that doesn’t mean you dismiss the threats at hand as random and indecipherable. Certain behaviors and settings have risk factors which cannot be blindly dismissed. “Erratic behavior in a large, public place with a lot of people in it” is treated differently than if the same person was behaving erratically at a family picnic. You can’t claim that recent technology (smaller, more lethal, less detectable weapons), recent events (school shootings, terrorist attacks) and other sociological factors (the Erostratus complex, desire for celebrity in the United States) don’t color how this behavior is viewed.
I’m sure law enforcement is keenly aware of this – how the “game has changed” – even if it doesn’t have much to say about what happens on a 1:1 level: “Because there was a bomb in Times Square, we have to tase this kid instead of tackling him.” Of course they aren’t thinking that, but you can’t rip them out of context. People didn’t worry about the threat of nuclear war before the bomb existed, but now they do. The oothpaste is not going back in its tube.
I agree that a lot of it is human nature, a perceived threat is just as good as a real one, as it tends to changes behavior on a large scale. And when an attack does actually happen, it affects everyone aware of it, both psychogically and in however many ways it alters any space where people interact (security measures, market response, etc). There’s inevitably heightened, though often misguided, vigilance.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
eh, I see where you're coming from
but still disagree with you. And now I’m feeling too lazy to argue it over the internet. Hope you understand. Seriously.
I’ll buy you a beer some day and we can discuss it then. My typing fingers just ain’t what they were this morning.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
that guy's pretty jolly
I don’t think it would be peaches ‘n’ cream to have him go all Cecil Fielder on me. Tasing has gotta hurt, but getting tackled by a pissed off cop is also not fun.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
NOT POLICE BRUTALITY.
PRIVATE CITIZEN BRUTALITY GAAAAAAH.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Nm, I am dumb.
Word! I should read crap before I spout off!
I still think the context is important.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
I saw a guy make it across the field at GABP
he started on the third base line, ran clear across, lept over the center-field wall, through the batter’s eye, then over a railing onto the moon-deck. Then you saw him toss his jacket and hat down to become invisible, Harrison Ford in The Fugitive style. It was pretty fantastic and well-planned
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
My favorite stunt was when the kid went swimming in the huge Bass Pro Shop fish tank
Cracks me up every time.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
IT would seem
that the reason the Taser was used was because the Taser has been invented and given to police who are told to follow an established police policy. In other words, stop or we will Taser you.
In time-honored fun, this would have been good for a laugh but we don’t live in that sort of world anymore and police departments are being told by Homeland Security to take less shit, give more electric shock and let the civil liberties lawyers sort it all out.
Maybe staying in our seats would be a viable alternative.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
i don't think you're taking into account the fact that
not every fan is going to stay in their seats nor is every police officer going to use a taser at appropriate times. i have never ever ever heard of a fan getting tasered for running on the field because it’s unnecessary. they get tackled and escorted out. if he was running toward the pitcher’s mound with a gun, that’s a different story. but he was just being a goofball.
giving cops the benefit of the doubt is also naive. have you seen the video of the cop tasering an 80 year old woman at a traffic stop? what the fuck is that shit? she was getting belligerent, but she’s 80! 80!!! why can’t you just give her a bear hug and throw her in your cruiser?
"Laynce, hit a homer here, I will never, ever say another bad thing about you." - Ash
Exactly
I have never been tasered, and I doubt it is pleasant, but this was hardly the “Don’t Taser me dude” incident. It is what the kid gets for being stupid. I also don’t think it is that big of a deal in light of the fact that some base coaches have been attacked. It is hardly a secret that fans aren’t suppose to be on the playing field, so this seems like a reasonable response.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
me either
Philly where they run a full blown arraignment court during home Eagles games at the stadium. It is not acceptable to run on the field ever. Fans have taken a sense of entitlement in regard to behavior at sporting events. Remember the clown at the Milwaukee game last year?
I’m sure the kid in Philly will sue the Phillies, the Stadium security people and probably MLB and settle out of court.
"I don't challenge Murphy, even if he's 0 for 20. Not him, not ever." - Mario Soto
At a Reds-Phillies game in '04, two kids ran on the field and got engaged
Or at least pretended to get engaged.
It was in a rain delay at this game, when Thome hit his 400th and Junya sat out on the cusp of 500. I believe Daedalus was there as well.
The tasing wasn’t much of a deterrent, btw. Some guy ran out again last night. He wasn’t tased.
by ken on May 5, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Soooo many thoughts about this Reposter, and I'm on a free period, so gird your loins people
1) Very nice reposter, Chuck. Big Montana Mike’s Steakhouse and Baked Potatery…love it.
2) Tasering is definitely excessive, and I would probably feel bad if it was a fan of any other team. (except probably the Yankees) Regarding the security issues, at least we know it won’t happen at a Reds game, since not that many people would get hurt….
3) “They got underneath my balls for the most part”. I’d like to think he phrased it that way on purpose.
4) The money issue: I think it’ll be more like $12 million to work with, but still, trading a couple guys with buyouts mid-season would help a lot. Also, this makes me strongly consider trading BP, especially if Valaika keeps hitting. Valaika is kind of a BP lite: a bit less power, similar OBP skills, probably hits for a better average, and a bit worse defense. But to save 10 million that could be used elsewhere, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
5) I really think at least one of Mesoraco or Soto will be catching with the big club by sometime in 2012. It’d be awesome if it was both.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
How does one have similar OBP skills and hit for better average than Brandon Phillips?
You mean he walks less than BP? Wow.
by Brian B on May 4, 2010 3:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, the Mets are the ones who got under his balls.
It’s not like Leake put his balls on top of them.
by Brian B on May 4, 2010 2:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Big Montana Mike's sure has a terrible ad slogan
but they are one of our underwriters, so please, everyone try one of their Meat-Stuffed Potatoes, served on a bed of meat (the plate is made of meat).
On the Chapman thing, it was encouraging to see he only issued 2 walks last night, but it sounds like some of the criticisms issued by that AOL Fanhouse guy have some teeth. His inability to harness his offspeed stuff is probably allowing hitters to sit on his fastball, the velocity of which is tailing off early when he doesn’t pace himself properly. I think when he gets a better handle on his slider and change-up, everything will fall in line.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
That slogan has been money for me going on 20 years
I should sue them for copyright infringement.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
First there was soup in a bread bowl
Now there’s a meat plate? Is there anything computers can’t do???
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
caption contest:
This from the recent ‘Rent-a-cop action series’ on display now at the Philadelphia Museum of fine Art.
"Looks like someone's been eating at Big Montana Mike's Steakhouse and Baked Potatery too often"
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Steve Consalvi is the kid's name BTW
His father came forward and identified him, even said the kid called his dad and asked him if he thought running onto the field was a good idea. Dad said no. Looks like Dad was right.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
that's racist!
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
"I don’t think you should, son"?
Good gravy. If my kid asked me if he should run out on the field, my response would be a lot stronger than that.
It is going to be a once in a lifetime experience for him, because he’ll probably be banned from the ballpark after this.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Do they ban you from all ballparks?
I wonder if there’s some centralized list for that, or if you just get banned from one at a time.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
We need a runling from someone who might know
…jch?
"There is no such thing as an innocent Gatorade cooler."
I have never been ejected from a sporting event
Many bars, but never a sporting event.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
I was hoping for a "and with that attitude you never will", but that'll work too :)
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
and what if you buy scalped tickets?
I feel like its pretty easy to overtake the ban. Or maybe the guy’ll just become a Reds fan.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
It's not like they ever check ID. He should just grow a mustache.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
No idea what it's like here
But I’m pretty sure the English have a centralized database in an effort to curb hooliganism. Not only would you not be allowed in a soccer stadium in England, but they won’t let you in in other countries for tournaments or the World Cup.
by Brendanukkah on May 4, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
this is true, although the enforcement is much stricter for international matches than those inside the country
There is a ridiculously long list of Britons not allowed to travel to England’s away matches. It might even go so far that they can’t even get into the country before a match.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
if he asked before he went out
this guy is even more insne than I thought. I thought he just got wasted and jumped out on the field. He planned it?
he's only 17
he’s not allowed to be wasted.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
By law or morality?
Or both
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on May 4, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thank you Mads
for understanding the difference
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
i think he got wasted, then planned it
it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience!
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
Philly really is solidifying its status
as America’s Drunk Moron Uncle, excessive force aside.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
We can probably all agree on this.
only in Philly can this many idiots be allowed to gather on a ball field.
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
I don't know
Chicago is pretty crappy…just ask Tom Gaboa
Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."
best. promotion. ever.
see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka
much more entertaining
than “God Bless America.”
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I like this picture more
and of course SBNation won’t let me hotlink to an SBNaton pic.
Ever since the “see it in their eyes” game I have a special hatred for the Mets and Mets fans. Its good to see them get the Sad Panda treatment once in a while.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
That picture should definitely cue up
that Charlie Brown Christmas music.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
This kid looks like a bright young chap...A little taser action to the frontal lobes might be a needed boost
Potential doesn't win games.
This why the Reds traded him with Taveras to the A's.
by Brian B on May 4, 2010 3:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
30 days in the Jail would do the young man good
"I don't challenge Murphy, even if he's 0 for 20. Not him, not ever." - Mario Soto
that even seems like a bit much
i think a night in jail, and a monthly visit with a state official would be plenty.
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
by justin007000 on May 4, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not allowed :(
And not for the reason you you’re all thinking.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
What other reason could there be?
Failure to bother to register?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
he ran into his voting precinct naked
and was tasered when the fatso security guards couldnt catch him. now he’s banned from voting.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to be a resident for one calendar year before voting, or so I was told
I switched my license from KY in November.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Those lying sonsa.....
Guess I’ll be hauling it to OH after work to vote tonight.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
If you haven't registered, it looks like it's too late.
Or did you register but they still said you couldn’t vote for a year?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Well hell
In KY you were automagically registered when you got your DL. Guess I won’t be voting after all.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
You may be able to vote provisionally today, but it's unclear.
In NC now you can register on the day of the election. Still a pain, but better than nothing.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Yes...your party needs you
* America First Party
* American Party
* America’s Independent Party
* Boston Tea Party
* Communist Party of the United States of America
* Florida Whig Party
* Independence Party of America
* Moderate Party
* Modern Whig Party
* Objectivist Party
* Party for Socialism and Liberation
* Peace and Freedom Party
* Progressive Labor Party
* Prohibition Party (1869)
* Reform Party of the United States of America
* Socialist Equality Party
* Socialist Party USA
* Socialist Workers Party
* United States Marijuana Party
* Unity Party of America
* Workers Party
* Workers World Party
* Working Families Party
* Zen Jim Beam Activist Party
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on May 4, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
don't forget
the Monster Raving Loony Party. Officially, I suppose you should really be in their country to vote for them, but judging from the pictures, I don’t think they’ll mind.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
not missing much
State wide anyway. Issue 2 is sort of important, but not really all that big a deal
"I don't challenge Murphy, even if he's 0 for 20. Not him, not ever." - Mario Soto
Hamilton has a library issue that passed
I hate Dusty Baker so goddamn much.
by justin007000 on May 4, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm thinking you're secretly Canadian.
What’s everyone else thinking?
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like reasonble suspicion to me!
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
No, Joey Votto is secretly American.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So Joeych can't vote because he's posing as a Canadian?
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Joeych is incredible
because he posts here and plays baseball at the same time. He must have an iphone out there
Because your voting location is a school and you have to stay 1000 feet away?
boom goes the dynamite….
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
The saddest thing about voting absentee
is not getting an “I voted” sticker. Thanks for filling that hole in my heart, Madville.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well just print out the 'I voted' caption from my comment and cut it out and past it on your forehead.
Potential doesn't win games.
Our election shtuff was a monthish ago.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
you've pretty much been mailing it in for the past four years
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
by boobs on May 4, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Here endeth the lesson
Paul Janish would have tasered that kid in Philly.
Therefore tasering was the correct line of action.
"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"
by Ewok on May 4, 2010 1:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I love this story - a 12-year old girl playing Little League with the boys
and throwing a knuckleball she learned from Phil Niekro.
She has thrown two perfect games within the past year, including one in an All-Star Game. She is unbeaten this season in nine starts, throwing 54 innings and striking out 103 batters while allowing only four runs. She also is hitting .569, playing third base when she doesn’t pitch.
This team wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for all the losing.
Replace Joe Niekro with a dead father
And that’s the plot of this middle-grade novel:
Nice story (I mean the real one, but the book’s decent, too.)
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Good quotes from Leake.
On multiple levels. I’m with nycredsfan. I’d bet nothing valuable that his wording was intentional.
C. Trent has this quote from Nick Masset in his game wrap:
…this is a game of inches and a game of ups and downs and smiles and cries.How’s that for jock poetry? Maybe I’m just paying closer attention this year, but I’m starting to see a trend of players giving more interesting interviews this year. They haven’t exactly abolished the cliche from the clubhouse, but there seem to be some thoughtful guys on this team.
by the finest muffins on May 4, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions
I disagree
First, I think there’s more flexibility there than people assume (witness the Rolen extension and Chapman signing); second, I think there’s $15-20M even assuming the same overall payroll:
- (and this is the big one) What does Votto make? He won’t hit 30 HRs or drive in 100 runs (like it or not, those are money numbers to arbitrators (especially for 1B)); is he going to get over $5M as a first year arb player? I’d think it highly unlikely.
- Neither Burton or Bray is currently in the majors, and they may not show up this year. Are they going to get much of a raise? Bray may not even qualify for arbitration if he doesn’t get called up before June.
- Volquez isn’t going to have a great case in arbitration. Even if he makes it back this year, it’ll only be for a month (30 IP?); put that with 49 uninspiring IP last year and I can’t see a case for a big raise.
- Cot’s is accounting for all of Chapman’s salary during the term of the contract, and all of it out of the big league salary pot. We know the former isn’t true, and were led to believe the latter isn’t either.
- Finally, we all assume there are a number of guys (Frazier, Wood, Heisey, Chapman) who will be ready to step in next year. If Volquez makes it back OK, they could have a rotation of 5 of Volquez/Cueto/Bailey/Chapman/Leake/Wood; an infield of Votto/Phillips/Janish (if he can continue to hit)/Rolen; and an outfield of 3 of Frazier/Heisey/Stubbs/Bruce. Not only would that be a decent team (assuming Bruce and Stubbs start hitting and Rolen stays healthy), but where would you absolutely need to spend $10M on a FA?
I’d say that if they wanted to spend some money, at this point (7 months before they need to start thinking about it) they’d be better off getting a hitter. If Bruce, Stubbs, and Phillips start hitting, though, they might be in really good shape even with limited resources for the FA market.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Me or Byrnes?
Byrnes could totally be Freel v2.0, crashing into random parts of the ballpark on a weekly basis. All for the low low price of $10 million!
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
i would take him for a veteran minimum just for the entertainment value
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
I agree with your disagreement.
By my accounting, if the Reds decline all the options and drop the FAs then the Reds should have at least $20mil. to reach a payroll of around $76mil.. $20mil. could go a long way towards a legitimate, middle of the order hitter. Unfortunately, I don’t see that guy available as a FA. It will probably have to come via trade, perhaps even before this season ends. I doubt they go after another arm, at least not a high-priced one.
by wanderinredsfan on May 4, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
good points
i admit, i didnt take the time to critically deconstruct what Dierkes said. i just took it at face-value.
i would be more comfortable if your estimates are correct, obviously, but i do wonder what kind of value BP has on the trade market. i wont hazard a guess at who/what/where or any of that, but it’s interesting.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 4, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Shut up before I tase you
I’d tackle you but I’m out of shape and can’t catch you.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
that's what she said
"Laynce, hit a homer here, I will never, ever say another bad thing about you." - Ash
So there is a 6 week window for Hi-Z to show what if anytrhing he can do at the MLB level
And for Stubbs to get an extended shot at more PT to shore up his position with the Reds.
Will C-Dick get Pipp’d?
Potential doesn't win games.
I'd like to see Wlad get the call as soon as he starts hitting
and maybe Dorn too. They need someone who can get on base against right-handed pitching and hit for some pop in LF. No one has a legitimate claim to the position at this point, so they should try to see what sticks.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on May 4, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Pipp
Gladys Knight and the ….
lefties tend to have looping swings for some reason, no idea why -- jch
around the horn just had this discussion
it was pretty similar to this one. Michael Smith played the role of johnU
Retractions are for journalists! -Gray
i'm sorry i missed this thread - i would have said --
arizona’d
there’s more freedom in this chaotic, dysfunctional, conflict-ridden country i find myself in than in the United States of America. and that tears me up inside, it really does.
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