Jeff Brantley, Accidental Racism, and You
Brantley: That was one of the toughest assignments I’ve ever had was doing the World Baseball Classic and doing the Taiwan team and the team from China. Trying to pronounce those names. (chuckles)
Kelsh: Was that back in ’06?
Brantley: Aw, man, I was struggling!
Kelsh: That got you ready to go, though, didn’t it?
Brantley: Oh, I was ching-chang-ing to death. It was hard.
Warning: This post is the epitome of tl:dr. So, I have bolded some points. These are not for emphasis necessarily - just what you might read if you don't fell like reading the whole thing.
Now, I'm sure you are all familiar with the use of the phrase "ching-chong" or 'ching-chang". They are not friendly. (Here's a wikipedia article to help). And Mr. Brantley is almost certainly not in ignorance of the usage of that phrase. For one, a quick search of all the players who played in the 2006 WBC reveals that there was no player in the classic named Ching in any form. (If you search for "chin", you get both Hu, Chin-Lung, and Menechino, Frank.) Incidentally, there were three players with the last name Chang, and 6 players with the last name Perez. Back to the point – he was almost definitely referring to the racial slur "Ching-chong" and not to anyone's name, at least subconsciously.
Furthermore, I'm not sure it really makes sense. I mean, if there was a player named (and forgive my language) "Ching Chang Chong", that would actually not be hard to pronounce at all. Perhaps a bit of a tongue twister, if you had to say it ten time fast, but I'm going to assume that was never part of the 2006 WBC telecast. (As a disclaimer, I am Korean-American – but I was adopted when I was four months old, my first and only language is English. I can say "hello" in Chinese, but it takes a lot of effort to get the inflection right, and the one time I said it to a Chinese person, she laughed for 5 minutes straight.)
This really raises another point. Certainly, the main problem I have is with Mr. Brantley's mode of expression, but his sentiments are not wholly unobjectionable either. Are Chinese (and Taiwanese) names so hard to pronounce? I realize it may be a legitimate challenge if you are unfamiliar with the language, as Brantley, undoubtedly is, and the romanization of Chinese characters is definitely not designed help you out phonetically, but the phrase "ching-chang-ing to death" is pretty sad. Mr. Brantley, expanding your horizons will not kill you: I promise. (Incidentally, if Jeff Brantley was working for ESPN in 2006, I would think he would have some practice in saying "Chien- Ming Wang, tied for the American League lead in wins.")
Let's get back to the really objectionable part – the racial slur. And it is one, make no mistake. It is a slur, an epithet, and an insult. It says, you are different, you are a freak, and you don't belong here. It creates and reinforces the idea that Asians aren't welcome. This is a pretty big deal, honestly. As ken mentioned in an email, Asian Americans have had a serious challenge breaking in to society as film stars, musicians, athletes, etc. In 2002, Shaquille O'Neil said on Fox News Radio, "You tell Yao Ming, 'Ching chong yang, wah, ah soh.'" Not...not helpful. (It was a 'joke' but as you may notice, it's not really very funny. But, let's cut Shaq some slack. It's way funnier than Kazaam.)
Yesterday, we also discussed Paul Daugherty's column in the reposter. (You know, the one that SI decided to highlight as "The Reds have decided to offer sushi at ball games; it's un-American." Nice use of the semi-colon though). Daugherty's main point seems to be that all this new-fangled junk is no good – he wants it old school. This is fair, but is sushi really the worst crap we have at the ballpark? Honestly, Daugherty's technique is pretty popular: resisting the influx of immigrants and foreigners by insisting that the cultural changes they bring somehow dilutes the "purity" of our Great American Society. (Haha, that was pun – get it?) Get over it. My deviant sushi lifestyle is not going to upset the sanctity of your hotdog.
Now for my main point. I am sure that Jeff Brantley absolutely did not intend his remarks as an insult to Chinese people, which is indisputably better than if he had said it with malice. Here's the thing: in many ways, it doesn't matter. Children (and adults) are still going to hear it, and think that it's ok, and more than that, they're going to take away the sentiment – that Chinese are "other", and it's cool to make fun of them.
I think there's a large segment of society that thinks that malicious racism is gone (not true) and that accidental racism isn't a big deal (also not true). As a law student, let me put it this way. You might break someone's leg by beating the crap out of him, or you might break his leg through reckless operation of a backhoe. Sure, it matters whether you did it purposefully or not, but to him, it probably matters more that his leg is broken. And either way, you're probably going to be paying the medical bills.
The other thing about accidental racism, is that it really isn't accidental. It's a reflection of the racist structure of society as a whole, and more often than not, reflects subconscious racism on the parts of many. It's also much harder to end. Letting racial slurs slip out when you talk, is hurtful and damaging, but more importantly, it renews the racism. Jeff Brantley, as a broadcaster, whose voice will reach into people's homes hundreds of times a year, should have a greater responsibility to take care and avoid this. How many people may have been listening Thursday afternoon? (A Reds spring-training game? Probably not a whole lot – but, uh, that's beside my point.) How many people will go out, and accidentally let that phrase slip into their own conversations and their own lives? The Reds have a responsibility not to propagate hurtful insults, and should take measures to make sure it doesn't happen again. I have contacted the Reds, and haven't really heard back from them (although I did get a nice response from Dave Armbruster with WLW referring me to the proper person with the Reds), so we'll see what happens there.
What about you? Do you think that Brantley's language was offensive? Do you care? What responsibility do you think the Reds have? I realize some of us may have certain opinions on Jeff Brantley and his broadcasting capabilities, but let's keep a thin veneer of respectfulness on the comments.
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Brantley's comments were not a big deal to me.
People worry about this stuff way too much. I am white, but two of my kids are from India. We have experienced some racism from ignorant people. Some people are insensitive, Brantley for example. He was not being malicious. Intent is the key with me. If your antennae are always up, looking for insults, you will surly find them. It’s easier, and healthier, to let some minor things pass.
If it wasn't for my horse, I never would have spent that year in college!
by Joe Nolan's Glasses on Apr 3, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, but perhaps you lack standing to pass on this one...
And also, the incidents you seem to be referring to were not in any sort of public forum.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Your public forum point is a good one.
I realize his comments offended some people. I do not think I have the power or standing to give him a pass. I was just giving my personal opinion about how I perceived his comments.
If it wasn't for my horse, I never would have spent that year in college!
by Joe Nolan's Glasses on Apr 3, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice piece
Generally, the thinking needs to start before we have to start apologizing for this sort of commentary. I have learned that saying you are sorry afterward contributes less positive than negative. That meaning: The intelligent debate gets lost in the squabbling.
There is a lot of accidental stupidity out there, and I am inclined here to offer the Indianapolis Star’s abortive Duke front page with the “horns.” After the administration gave thought to it, pulled it back, saying it wasn’t good policy. Again, when did the thinking start? They let somebody be in charge of this who didn’t have any need to ask questions.
Brantley: He’s a product of a society that let this sort of conversation occur in polite, not so polite and country society. Nobody would call him down for that. What he said wasn’t especially damning, though. The biggest problem goes beyond that, meaning having a more intelligent way of discussing the WBC than he did.
If we are to assume that lack of ability to articulate thought is the same as racism, we need to be perhaps a little more gentle.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
I understand your point, but stupidity is not an excuse for racism or ignorant comments
It might be if Brantley had said it on his front porch while playing the banjo and sippin’ moonshine (yay stereotypes!), but since he said it on the air of a major radio station, it’s a big deal.
Compare it to swearing. It is often said that curse words are a substitute for people who don’t have a good vocabulary, but if Brantley had said, “That f#$%ing WBC was so f#$%% hard, I never got my s@%& together with those g%$ d$@# Chinese names” no one would be defending him. It’s his responsibility to not use offensive language, and this was undoubtedly offensive.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Apr 3, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
well said
Of course, maybe it’s just me, but I’m pretty confident in predicting that Brantley has less than nice things to say about other majorities too. At least, that’s my conjecture. I have absolutely no proof, but he just seems like that to me.
Aren't you, by that statement, stereotyping Brantley as a racist?
You hear him say one thing, look at his personality, and make assumptions that you cannot possibly prove. That’s much, much worse than one badly thought comment.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I can't speak for timb116
but we’ve heard Brantley say lots of things beyond this one instance.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
That may be
but you can’t say things like:
I’m pretty confident in predicting that Brantley has less than nice things to say about other majorities too. At least, that’s my conjecture. I have absolutely no proof, but he just seems like that to me.
and not admit on some level that you’re stereotyping Brantley as a Southern racist, an idiot, or whatever. To me, that is worse than Brantley using the phrase he did. There’s a difference between an off-hand comment (which I think Brantley made) and a statement made willfully without knowledge.
I’d be interested in hearing other racist statements you’ve heard from Brantley; I’ve never heard them. Not that that means they haven’t happened, but a fuller understanding of the situation always helps.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I am perfectly comfortable in branding Brantley as a southern idiot
I’ve met him.You think he’s pulling the good-ole-boy routine, then you think “shit…..he really is that dumb”.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
You think it's because he's a Southern redneck?
I never said that. I said I listen to him and hear what he says and I make my conjectures.
Meanwhile, if the Southern accent really caused me to think the speaker is a racist, then I’d really need to avoid family reunions.
I wasn't afraid of judgment on the issue.
I listen and I hear dog whistles….I pretty much don’t expect an Al Campanis moment, so all I can go with is subtext. I will update you, Jeff, when I hear something specific.
"If we are to assume that lack of ability to articulate thought is the same as racism, we need to be perhaps a little more gentle."
It doesn’t have to be about blame, then. Regardless of intent, something offensive was said publicly, and it shouldn’t go unaccounted for. An apology doesn’t have to be “Jeff Brantley is sorry he’s a raging racist.” It could easily be couched in terms like “Jeff Brantley didn’t intend to denigrate anyone and apologizes. He’ll not use these terms again and will do his best to avoid any other offensive language.” No one needs to be punished or anything (at least not in my opinion) but to not even acknowledge what happened is implying that what he said was perfectly fine. And it obviously wasn’t.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
im sure once he hears that someone is upset
he’ll say something like “Dadgum PC America… you can’t say anything anymore without someone getting offended!” Throwing out the “Dadgum PC” card is an excuse for ignorant people to not think.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Yes, exactly. See: Ft Hood, TX
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
So you don't think there's some truth to America being politically correct, almost to a fault?
It seems like there’s a lot of thin skin out there, and IMO it’s largely generational or perhaps the era in which we’re currently in
This probably isn’t a popular stance, but I hope that one day I live in an era where Brantley can say what he said, and everyone laughs at it b/c of the nonsense of the statement, and that no one takes it as a deep, stabbing insult/racial slur/etc. I honestly think people just don’t laugh at enough stuff nowadays. Had Brantley trotted out slot machine, California roll, Banana, Charlie, Chink, Coin Slot, Coolie, Eggroll, Gink, Gook, Lego, Meat Pie, Raisin, Slant-Eyed, Slope Head, VC, Yellow, Yelvis, or Nip, then grab your torches and pitchforks, and let’s deal with Brantley accordingly, but my personal agenda took what he said as tongue in cheek, I chalked it up to him being just a good ‘ol boy never meanin’ no harm, and as much as I hate to say it, he used a phrase with which his audience could identify.
Let’s make no mistake, IMO, the tri-state area around Cincinnati is a hotbed of racism. Fortunately, unfortunately, it’s seemingly accepted. Believe me, like I listed above, if ching-chang is Brantley’s Asian racial slur of choice, then I’m strangely ok with that, b/c IMO there’s definitely much worse.
So, if laughing about what Brantley said is wrong, then I don’t wanna be right, and I sure as shit hope more people come over to my side, b/c if you can’t laugh about nonsense like that, then I honestly don’t see any progress with race relations and what not. Get some thicker skin, and get upset about slurs that cut deeper and have a sharper edge to them. Let’s not spin our wheels about IMO a non-issue.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i pretty much stick by what i said
no one’s staging a rally. just trying to open a dialogue. i think that’s the best way for people to understand each other
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
What good is a dialogue when one side honestly doesn't care?
Let’s see a show of hands as to who thinks Brantley honestly thinks he used a racial slur, much less with intent?
Do those offended by Brantley’s remark really want to understand Brantley as a man or person, or do they just want to shake that proverbial finger at him and get him to not make that remark on the air again?
Do any of us really think that Brantley wants to understand those potentially offended and actually legitimately offended by his remark?
I mean I’m all for “can’t we all just get along?”, but I doubt I’ll never see it in my lifetime, and I’m only 29. Too many flavors in the world. Not all of them taste good together.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think opening up a dialogue is more productive than running around screaming "Everyone's a pussy!"
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
by boobs on Apr 4, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd and agreed
and Highlife, it’s awfully easy to say people need to get a thicker skin when you are in the majority (which I assume you are…If you are a minority, excuse me)
You might counter, “well, someone could make fun of me being white and I’d be ok with it” but that still is different because you are still in the majority. Until you’ve been a true minority with a history of being oppressed, you can’t understand what it’s like, and you’ll never understand how comments like that feel, so for you to just say people need to get over it is not just unhelpful, but also kind of ignorant and really insensitive.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I'm just sayin' that it seems like skin's gettin' thinner over the years
And it has nothing to do with me being a 6’1", 195 lb white guy, although I’d certainly argue that white people are becoming the new minority quicker than I thought we would.
I mean Hell, look at the latest Census. You have “White” as an option, but it seemed like they wanted an essay on what kind of Hispanic or Asian you have in your household. Is it a witch hunt? Is it a way to crack down on illegal immigration? (Man I hope so…)
I think another key topic with the whole race discussion is that it’s not just a race issue, but also an ethnicity discussion. And perhaps it really does point the finger at andromache’s assertion that everyone is racist towards those not immediately like themselves. It’s not just a white vs black vs yellow vs other color issue, but Chinese vs Polish vs Italian vs Russian vs Irish vs etc… Bottomline, some ethnicities just don’t like each other, and there’s historical reasons for that.
But, I’m babbling at this point.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Incidentally, my assertion is that everyone is racist towards everyone, including their own race.
IAN! I'm on traain!
And I'm of the opinion that everyone should make fun of others, and themselves
If we can’t laugh with ourselves, and with and at others, then what’s the point?
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think those two views are mutually exclusive
i think chappelles show is one of the most racially progressive on tv (syndication i guess) because it spends so much time just talking about the differences between races and laughing about it. saying “oh, asians, ching-chong!” isn’t funny, it’s just ignorant.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Baby steps, I guess
Let’s make the Racial Draft skit, and the Clayton Bigsby skit on Chappelle’s Show mandatory viewing, and then see where we’re at.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Old Dirty is changing his name
from Dirt McGirt to Old Dirty Chinese Restaurant
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
by boobs on Apr 4, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
im really sorry i missed this thread
im generally in agreement with your sentiment, but i take issue with this statement:
Until you’ve been a true minority with a history of being oppressed, you can’t understand what it’s like, and you’ll never understand how comments like that feel
just because im a white man means i cant possibly understand how a minority feels? to assume that i am unable to feel a sufficient level of empathy for someone else is insulting.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If you really want to say something to me in particular,
feel free to email me at the address at the bottom of the page. I’m not a real mod, so I can’t ban you, and I would promise not to share it with any other members of the site. The purpose of my post was not to insult you, or anyone.
Tell me I’m a moran, cuss me out, whatever. Death threats I would take exception to, :P.
IAN! I'm on traain!
who do you love
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
thus the nature of societal commentary
always gonna piss someone off on some level
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i disagree
i dont think empathy is the issue. As a white man, I can have empathy for the plight of minorities, but I don’t pretend to truly understand what it’s like because I’ve never experienced it.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
ive never experienced tuberculosis either
but people tell me it’s awful. and ive had a bad cold a few times, so i have a frame of reference.
no, ive never experienced racism like some minorities have. but im still a human being, and ive been left out and treated unfairly for arbitrary reasons. to say that i cant understand it presumes that im callous and/or ignorant.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i dont think so at all
it just means you cant intrinsically understand it. it doesn’t imply you’re callous at all.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
by that logic though
i cant intrinsically understand the experiences of anyone else regarding anything. we are all just islands. lonely islands.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
i mean, no
you can intrinsically understand experiences you’ve had. like, if youve been shipwrecked for 108 days, you can intrinsically understand the plight of the five other survivors of Oceanic flight 815.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
yes!
you could not intrinsically understand what it was like growing up in iraq and becoming a torturer for the baaths, but you COULD sympathize with him.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
i think you are being too strict with your definition of "empathy"
by your definition, no one could ever empathize with anyone else. the word and concept would be completely useless. i dont think that’s it.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
i think you can sympathize with people who have experienced things you havent
but i dont think you can understand what they’ve experienced. i dont want to get into the connotations associated with the word “empathize,” but yeah, i dont think you can ever understand something you havent experienced. like, ive never done coke. ive heard accounts of what it’s like and i know the risks and what it’s supposed to do to your body. but i dont understand what it’s like to do coke.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
i cant understand doing coke in the way that one who has done it understands it
but i understand it enough to speak about it intelligently and have my opinion taken seriously.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think you can speak about what it's like to be on coke intelligently and be taken seriously
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
ill put it this way
assuming you havent done coke, if i want to know what it’s like to do it, i’m going to ask the guy who’s done it before i ask you
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
i think that's a pretty dangerous premise
one that could ultimately cripple public discourse and render a peaceful resolution hopeless. saying that half the population cant be taken seriously in this debate is bad news man.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think this argument applies to the whole debate.
For instance, if you’ve done coke before, you might still have plenty of things to say about coke that would be credible and relevant. However, if you were to say “Man, it is so easy to stop doing coke – it isn’t addicting at all,” I would probably not pay very much attention to that statement.
IAN! I'm on traain!
right
im not saying the people who havent done coke cant speak on the topic of coke, im saying they shouldnt be taken seriously when talking about what it’s like to be on coke.
i realize that its not so flattering to compare being a minority to being on drugs. sorry.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
i didnt say that
im not saying only minorities are allowed to have a say in the discussion. im saying, because of this lack of understanding, there should be a discussion so people like us can better understand what it might be like to be a minority. if we never try to understand things from other people’s point of views we start living in a really myopic world
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
agreed
but what im saying is is that i HAVE tried to understand things from other people’s POV, and my being white did nothing to diminish my capacity to do that.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 4, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And I'm late to this whole thread, but since my comment started it
I wasn’t saying white people have nothing to say on the matter, can’t empathize, or shouldn’t be taken seriously. If you’ll notice, Highlifeman wasn’t trying to empathize, he was basically saying, “y’all are too sensitive, just get over it.” He was basically doing the opposite of empathizing, and my point is that it’s really dangerous (and insensitive) to outright dismiss feelings that you can’t possibly have felt firsthand.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
A really crazy coincidence happened today
I was at a panel about restorative justice (halfway houses, basically) and this drug court judge said, “For someone like me, who has never tried a drug like coke or heroin, I cannot understand what that craving is like.”
I almost laughed out loud.
(Not trying to make a point, just a funny coincidence)
IAN! I'm on traain!
I've had awful things yelled at me and been directly threatened with physical violence for no other reason than my being "white"
Can I understand?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
You know, I've never been threatened with physical violence because of my race.
So I don’t really know what that feels like.
But if I were to list every time I’ve run into a racial issue in my life, it would go on substantially longer than the OP (I know, impossible, right?)
When the people who are making negative comments and jokes about the way Asian people look and talk aren’t just “ignorant strangers”, but your mother, and your teachers, and your friends, and your coworkers, and your doctors, it is much harder to brush it off and feel sorry for the fool who would say such a thing.
I guess, when it comes right down to it, if you say you understand, without knowing your life, as you presumably do, I have very little basis for saying you can’t. Of course, though perhaps you can, you clearly don’t (in that you find my feelings on the subject unreasonable), and I can still disagree with that.
IAN! I'm on traain!
That's where you're wrong
I don’t find your feelings unreasonable. They’re your feelings, not mine. I’m sure there’s reasoning behind them and one that I mostly agree with.
What I do find unreasonable is the notion that because I’m white I can’t understand what someone who’s experienced prejudice has gone through. In my mind, that stance is just as socially ignorant as Brantley being a damned idiot and repeating a slur that he probably can’t define.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
i cant believe this thread is still going
i guess im going to have to concede that. my real point is not that white people in america cant understand prejudice, it’s that white people in american generally can’t wholly understand being a minority. Now, of course, there are lots of exceptions, especially white people who have lived in communities where they are the minority. if that’s the case with you, then i apologize. but i stand by the idea that most white people, including me, cant totally comprehend what it’s like to be a minority all the time.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I don't understand what it's like to be a minority from birth, without question
But I have existed in places and situations where I’ve been a minority, and a hated one. It sucks. I’ve seen both sides of it and stand by my statement above. 99.9% of racists are sniveling cowards when you call them out on it, especially in public.
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
You mean then that you have sympathy
Empathy implies that one has felt the same as another in a like or similar situation.
Potential doesn't win games.
I agree with you that
you do have a frame of reference and it is meaningful for you to be able to sympathize in that way.
However, in the same way that you can’t really dismiss someone else’s tuberculosis as being basically a bad cold, I’m not in a position to dismiss the oppression minorities experience—even if I do have a frame of reference for it. I don’t take that as an insult; it’s just reality.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I don't assert that Brantley doesn't need to come clean on this.
I just abhor the notion that he’s going to be labeled a racist because of a childish or stupid comment that came without thought. Hey, I hear lots of “older people” comments all the time from you “younger people” and I think … that’s not a nice thing to say. But you do look very nice in that dress, sweetie.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Not saying he's necessarily a racist.
I AM saying that he’s an idiot for being stupid enough to say something like that on a radio broadcast though.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
We knew he was an idiot LONG before he said that
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well playing the Idiot card here
… why are we discussing racism?
Lots of uneducated people are not racists.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
but idiots arent smart enough to realize the things they say are offensive and detrimental for real reasons
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
He said ching-chang.
That in and of itself is a pretty negatively stereotypical remark.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I just want to clarify
The assertion is: Brantley (may be) stupid and a racist, then that’s what we are discussing, right?
Even some smart people are racists.
Just saying Brantley is an “idiot” sends us downward in our discussion. The term itself is derogatory, unless you don’t know the definition.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Fair enough.
In my defense, I think the term ‘idiot’ has probably been kind of desensitized. But yeah, I see your point.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
And Brantley is an idiot
Simply from a baseball perspective.
I still remember him saying he wanted Edwin Encarnacion to bunt because he wasn’t a clutch hitter right before he hit a game winning home run.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Again
He doesn’t have to be a racist for the comment to have been racist. This is an opportunity to educate him (and others) on this particular slur.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
here is where the art of forum debate gets edgy
staying inside the confines of the discussion and not adding anecdotal information. Nobody is or has suggested the the comment isn’t racist.
It’s clear on every level. It isn’t clear that Brantley is a racist, but it would seem that he is culturally insensitive.
The two are sometimes the same, sometimes not. Racism is a pretty heavy rock to throw at people and when they are asked to defend themselves, it’s almost always
yes you are
no I’m not
well, you are because I said so and that’s all the counts.
Be wary of casting a stone.
About his overall intellect and broadcasting style: Different topics.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Good points.
Calling Brantley an idiot, discussing his general broadcasting performance, and even calling him personally a racist all cloud the discussion and could actually provide channels for someone to dismiss the whole incident. That would be a shame, because it’s serious and should be dealt with.
I do think those comments are okay to make here, in an informal discussion of what happened. But It would be counterproductive to use those arguments if, say, someone were planning to contact the Reds to make a complaint.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
We should also be clear
That andro’s point was not that Brantley is a racist but that the comment was hurtful and damaging and he should be made aware of that and apologize
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Apr 3, 2010 2:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I will specify that I think everyone is racist.
So Jeff Brantley is racist, and you are racist, and I am racist. Pretty much unavoidable.
His remarks were not acts of racism, but there were both insensitivity and racism involved in the act.
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 3, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
As long as everyone is racist, then I agree with you
And I also agree that his remark was not an act of racism, and I’d like to re-assert that I think there’s varying degrees of racist acts and racist remarks.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn't make sense.
Racism implies motive. Are you saying that I treat people differently based solely upon their ethnicity? I take offense to that!
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Here's the Duke thing
Now, this got published and it was published because the editor who was allowed to publish it didn’t think anybody would be offended. The thinking didn’t start until 20,000 of these things got out, which …ahem, makes them “collectors items.”
Racism? No.
Cultural stupidity, yes?

(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
i have a personal connection to this
so, needless to say, I will defend it. the only people who should be ashamed are the editors who turned their back on the designer and threw him under the bus. this is a really smart section front that is an OBVIOUS satire on Duke-hating fans. the only reason anyone got offended is because the star pulled the front and started apologizing left and right, as if they had made some sort of mistake.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I don't get it
Why would they apologize? Am I missing something?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
It seems like a creative design
and shame on Coach K for refusing to see the satire (it was, after all, accompanied by an extended article about how irrationally people hate Duke) and acting all offended instead:
“I did see that, and first thing, I thought ‘that can’t be.’ How could a newspaper do that?” Krzyzewski said. "I thought somebody doodled – actually, I thought I looked better. But it was kind of juvenile – not kind of, it was juvenile. My seven grandkids didn’t enjoy looking at it – ‘that’s not Poppy.’ So it is what it is. It’s very juvenile.
“We’ve got great kids that go to school, they graduate. If we’re going to be despised or hated by anybody because we go to school and we want to win, you know what? That’s your problem. Because we’re going to go to school and keep trying to win. You don’t like it? Keep drawing pictures.”
The bullseye on his forehead was a bit over the top, though.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
i agree on all points
if i have one criticism, it’s the bulls-eye, but i understand it given the point he was trying to make.
and fuck cal’s grandkids.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I do like that he used his grandkids not liking it
as an example of how juvenile it was.
Wait, what?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
so we can defend offensive
if it’s a white basketball coach who we think overreacted. What gives Coach K the right to be upset about this?
If this had been an “ethnic” coach, would the response on this have been the same. I believe it’s rather callous to just call it creative design without evaluating whether somebody has been offended. If you want to go that way, I think Brantley was being rather “amusing” with his comment about ching-ing and chang-ing.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Wait, what?
I don’t think you’re reading what we wrote. In the Coach K case, he refused to see it for what it obviously was: a satirical statement about the craziness of some people towards Duke. The graphic was then accompanied by an article about the whole phenomenon, which took seriously its impact on coach K and the team.
This is not at all the same as one guy not thinking through the racist implications of his attempt at a joke.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
There can certainly be parallels.
Some people are better able than others to analyze similarities and differences between two things.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
You're definitely smarter than the rest of us
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I definitely wasn't saying that
but was pointing out that we should be able to go beyond absolutes when discussing things.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
implications are what we observe
What we mean and what the world thinks we believe are not the same.
Somebody at the Star believed somebody outside the Star would be offended. I agree with boobs that the editors threw the designer under the bus after the fact.
The problem and this is THE problem that I tried to examine in the first part of my participation, is that the THINKING needs to start LONG BEFORE the apologizing begins. The explanations of what was meant and what was really meant are all the result of having people who were NOT called into the process early enough to see what their intent would yield.
Had the editors been apprised as they should have been in the genesis of this design plan, somebody might have said, “it could be offensive.”
“Is it?”
“If somebody is offended, yes. Do we want to do that, yes or no?”
And the designer needs to be a little more aware of the consequences of his/her own creativity.
That has been where the entirety of the debate wanders. The THINKING PROCESS SHOULD begin long before we decide to deride Brantley. Is he the man you want for this job? Yes, no, maybe. Fuck it, he sells beer.
Well, good. Chinks drink beer.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
I agree with you WRT the Star mess.
I don’t know how the office politics of these things work, so I wonder if it was just a higher-up not paying attention until he hung the designer out to dry or what. Clearly, they should have been discussing this throughout the process. If they had, they would have had kept it all from being released, or if they printed it, had ready a definite response to any complaints. Running it and then pulling it was the worst possible outcome.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
i agree with what youre saying
this shows, among other things, a lack of forethought. but the editors really created the problem by pulling the graphic mid-run and apologizing. at that point, the issue was already framed as, Oh, the Star really fucked up, and then people drew their conclusions based on that narrative. Had the Star just stood by the design to begin with, I doubt anyone even asks Coach K about the front, and we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about it. (The issue, to me, isn’t that the front was offensive. I don’t think anyone can legitimately make that claim. The problem is that a small group of people didn’t understand it or were too chicken-shit to run it. All the problems came from that.)
But yes, you’re right, had everyone been on the same page early in the day the whole thing could have been avoided.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
offensive acts, not always confined to stupid people
Accidentally stupid is generally what we have decided to call Brantley. He may believe what he said.
But there are cases when being offensive is less a mistake than a calculated gamble. Abercrombie & Fitch are masters. Do something shameful, apologize and wait for the masses to click on your Website to see what you did about it. While they are there, they buy something different. What works, works.
This is not a strategy that newspapers ought to use. Yeah, plan the plan, go with the plan and let something beat it.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
not true
at least one quarter last year they were Gannett’s most profitable newspaper
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
perhaps
but they were really profitable. they turned something like a 24 percent profit over that quarter.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
well, they did hack some positions
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
yeah, i was trying to think if that was one of the layoff quarters or not
it probably had a lot to do with it, to be honest. the star took a pretty harsh cut from what i remember
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
The interesting thing about the balance sheets of many newspapers
is that they were largely weighed down by all of the debt taken on in the wave of acquisitions. Quite a few “bankrupt” papers would have been fine if they hadn’t racked up such debt. Sure, they needed to make adjustments in the face of declining classified revenue and so on, but it wouldn’t have been nearly as severe without those poor decisions.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Our operation
was basically clear except for the $760,000,000 we owed the IRS.
We are doing fine now.
I think.
Our new owner ain’t saying.
We can’t ask.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
So does that mean all their soon to be out of work catalog models are going to appear in the next 2 Twilight movies?
Yes?
No?
Inquiring minds wanna know…..
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure Polish counts as ethnic
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I want my knob polished
Any volunteeers?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
only those with tiny hands need apply
"then skip it"....
by obc2 on Apr 3, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I have a lot of flaws, but.....
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
yeah, just young white people want that.
Us older ones, we want … Stratomatics.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
They prefer to be called Caucasian Americans
Or Pigmentally Challenged. Please be more politically correct in the future.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
just to be clear, i was making a hyperbolic statement expressing my distaste for some white people's dismissal of all things racism-related
not mocking andro’s post.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
And I was making a statement that even honkies have a right to be protected from damaging racial labels
Just kidding. I was just being stupid trying for laughs.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
i wasnt trying to slam you or anything. hope it didnt come across that way
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Not at all
I just wanted you and Anrdo to know I wasn’t mocking either of you. Just being my usual clownish (is that a word?) self.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Enough PC crap, doucenozzles!
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Apr 3, 2010 1:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fail
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Apr 3, 2010 1:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well said, andromache.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the term “accidental racism” is a good one. Out of curiosity, who were you advised to contact at the Reds? I haven’t had a reply to my email.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 1:35 PM EDT reply actions
Great post.
I am not at all happy with Brantley. We need a pretty poetic apology, or the guy needs to be out of the booth.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I'm gonna go ahead and say it
Why?
Why a pretty poetic apology? Why the extreme of him out of the booth?
I’m thinking a pretty simple “I said a stupid thing, and I wasn’t trying to insult anybody” should suffice.
The problem with Brantley and a pretty poetic apology is that I can already hear that apology and how much he’ll screw it up and probably end up offending even more people in the process. He’s a country bumpkin. I honestly expect stupid shit to come out of this mouth, and the reason is that the majority of people are stupid and on some level they can relate to him. Want to alienate your radio audience? Put an educated, condescending tone in the booth. Lemme know how that works for ya.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
"It says, you are different, you are a freak, and you don't belong here."
How did you find my high school diary, andromache?
On a serious note: I tend to ignore this form of ignorance (which I know makes me part of the problem) — but this time I’m with you. Why? Because I want Brantley out of the booth. If this can speed up his departure I’m all for it.
Mmmmmmm, RIBS!

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Apr 3, 2010 1:44 PM EDT reply actions
I wonder if we'd be quite as mad if it was actually a good announcer...
That might be a moot point though- A good announcer probably wouldn’t make a stupid mistake like this.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
A cow's opinion?
[insert picture of the giant UDF cow that the internet couldn’t supply for me HERE]
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions

"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Apr 3, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brantley is not a smart man and should apologize
Also, everything tastes better on a cracker.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Even chocolate?
How about sushi?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Apr 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nutella on Wheat Thins
Give it a try. It’s awesome.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You're damn right

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I've never had someone eat sushi off me
I’ll get back to you Thursday on that.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
no hurry, really.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Sushi at the ballpark, game 2 crowd.....someone will do it
I’ll be sure to post pics,
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
jch is going to eat 14 Quatman's burgers off of himself and post pics on a front page FanPost
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Save yourself the time, just type
“14 JTM burgers”
by Ash on Apr 3, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
assburgers is no laughing matter
many kids are afflicted with the disease
by 'tHan on Apr 3, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I most certainly did.
by Ash on Apr 3, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
that's because you're missing the cues for real humor.
Potential doesn't win games.
by Madville on Apr 4, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who? This man? Not smart? You jest!

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Apr 3, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
looks like he's about to eat that baseball
probably he’s just wondering if he should go back into the clubhouse to get the BBQ sauce.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
so, i wonder what brantley's favorite flavor of ice cream is?
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Ribs, covered in chocolate.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Apr 3, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It was racist, insensitive, and generally ignorant.
Then again, I’m not holding my breath waiting for an apology, given all the stupid shit I’ve heard Brantley say on the air with no apology.
Is there anybody who’s not tired of his stupid “cowboy” act?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
i still like hearing him talk about how many scoops of ice cream he eats per day
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I'mma let you finish but...
Rickey Henderson was the best ice cream-obsessed baseball player of ALL TIME!
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
At the rate he is going,
this problem should take care of itself.
He fixes the cable?
by Colin Auscapee on Apr 3, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
so what do we do?
this is the same conundrum I had with Marge.
I was offended. It was wrong of both of them to say the things they said.
But I wasn’t willing to abandon the Reds because of it. I didn’t watch or listen less, and I didn’t buy less stuff because of it — though I buy very little Reds stuff.
Is it our moral obligation to protest somehow, by affecting Castellini’s pocketbook?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
I think it calls into question what I said above ...
… not that what I have to write on this is all that meaningful.
But when does the thinking start? Now, somebody hired this man to sit in the broadcast booth and offer commentary on Reds baseball. The interview process was completed in a manner that at least suggested Brantley would provide a style of reporting that the team thought was conducive to better ratings.
Did somebody ask: Is this guy bright enough to report on Reds baseball? The answer was either (a.) yes or (b.) something else. If it had been (c.) no, then why is he in the booth.
My guess it was (d.) we don’t give a fuck because he can sell beer to the rednecks.
This blathering has nothing to do with racism/cultural slurs or even ignorance in general at the ground level. There are people at the top who do the thinking (or not) and wait around,hoping their announcers don’t make stupid statements.
They didn’t care then and the only time they are asked to care now is when they call their lawyers to see how to minimize the damage. We could say the only color that counts is green, but that’s racist.
Brantley probably shouldn’t be in the booth, but it’s not because of this comment. The reason he shouldn’t be in the booth is because he is the sort of announcer who (probably) is inclined to make this sort of comment.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
We all display righteous indignation in an internet forum
And if/when word gets back to Brantley, he laughs and says “fuckin’ nerds”.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Apr 3, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
There's always something you can do, if you really want to do something.
I actually think talking about it is a good start. You can react with your wallet, like you suggested, if that’s your thing. You can write to someone and ask for an apology, which is what I did. I’m sure there are other creative things others could come up with. Obviously there’s no guarantee that anything will come of any of this, but in my mind it beats complacency.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus when you do something about it, you get this really great self-righteousness-high.
It’s pretty great.
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 3, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is that the same as getting on your high horse?
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
/Catherine the Great'd
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Finally, someone who was there has come forward to dispell the rumor
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Apr 4, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the only person wirth any real power over brantley is the owner of montgomery inn
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
So I actually wrote several drafts of that comment before settling on this one.
Some of them had more creative (extreme?) suggestions, one of which was to contact Reds’ sponsors like UDF and Montgomery Inn.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If I went to China and the Chinese people there had trouble with my name,
and they said that they were “Billy-Bob-ing it up” trying to pronounce my name, I would get the hell over it because I’m in China and the people there speak Chinese.
Jeff Brantley is a harmless guy. Everyone steps on somebody’s toe every once and a while, and when that happens, you simply apologize and move on. The scathing social commentary is actually more harmful than any percieved “racism”.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani2 on Apr 3, 2010 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm confused by your comment.
What scathing social commentary are you talking about, and how is it harmful?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I was referring to the original post.
There is no need to take an inncoent comment like this and blow it out of proportion. I was saying that Mr. Brantley should apologize, anyone who is offended should accept it, and we should all move on with our lives. We don’t need people going off on a tangent like this. It exacerbates the problem.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani2 on Apr 3, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So because Brantley is ignorant enough
to be considered “innocent” in your eyes when he says things that are, in fact, hurtful to others, those people are out of line when they bring that up?
No, I don’t agree with that at all.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
But
how is he to know he was offensive, and apologize, if someone doesn’t point it out?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Apr 3, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If you want to say to Mr. Brantley
that his remark was insensitive and it hurt your feelings, that’s one thing. To call him a racist and rail against the “racist structure of society”, that is something completely different, and I think it happens to be moronic.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
im pretty sure she specifically did NOT call him a racist
except to say that everyone is racist
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I'm refering to the original post
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Right, and in the original post
she definitely did not call him a racist.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Explicitly? No, she didn't
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Oh, so by
“to call someone a racist,” you didn’t actually mean “to call someone a racist.”
Well, I’m glad we cleared that up.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
My mistake.
She implied that he was a racist.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Of course, she didn't do that either.
She gave a long, detailed explanation of how statements like these are a symptom of societal racism and inherent privilege enjoyed by people like Brantley…
and you inferred that she was saying he is a racist.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
She tied his comments directly to the argument that society is racist.
That’s what I was referring to. I strongly disagree with that analysis. This was just a guy joking around about his inability to pronounce Chinese.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
We all get that you strongly disagree with the analysis,
think it’s moronic and harmful, etc. But on what grounds? Are you disputing that what Brantley said has been used as a racial epithet in the past?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
My grounds are simple:
I don’t think society is, at its core, racist. There are most definitely racist members of society, but taken as a whole, I just don’t see it.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Whatever.
I’ve talked to lots of friends about this. Lots of pretty liberal, accepting people even. Every single one of us agreed that we’re racist. (Not to say that we think it’s right or anything, but we’ve all got perceived stereotypes) Being racist isn’t the issue though. The issue is when you act out and say something like that, not even realizing there’s anything wrong with it. The fact that he seemed to think there was nothing wrong with that statement rings of this ‘inherent racism’ we seem to be talking about.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Here is where we are, folks
Brantley made a culturally insensitive statement.
That does not mean he is a racist.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
My penis isn't racist
But it does tend to be misogynistic.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Apr 3, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
14 and counting
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
It has been awhile
since i have seen the word misogynistic used on an RR post. Boy am I impressified.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Misogynist is a favorite buzzword over @ RedsZone to anyone that makes fun of ugly chicks
When the Steve Phillips thing happened with the ugly chick @ ESPN (Brooke whatever her name was, the Navy Seal), I said that I was more disappointed in Steve’s choice is roadbeef/strange than the fact he had an affair.
Posters immediately branded me a misogynist b/c I focused on him banging an ugly chick. Still baffles me.
Just in case you forgot who she was, see below, the Navy Seal.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I know people who have and still do work for ESPN
I’ve walked the halls of their campus. I’ve seen the women, and they are and will continue to be much much better options.
Having an affair with that (oh no, did I just objectify a woman, and an ugly one at that…) is just pathetic and desperate if you’re Steve Phillips.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
If I get what you're saying Mads....
C. Trent is not attractive, and should take what he can get (or pay for, probably in his case)
Steve Phillips, on the other hand, is IMO an attractive dude. Can’t GM a ballclub worth a damn, or be a studio analyst, for that matter, but he’s got some looks to him. He should be able to pull better tail.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps the better tail had better things to do, so to speak,
than bang the overly-tan crap analyst/former GM. If he had better looking women barking up his tree, by your logic, he would choose them, right? This leads me to believe there were no other women barking up that tree.
by Ash on Apr 4, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure what to believe
I’ve heard Steve chased Brook
And also heard Brook chased Steve
So, if Steve chased Brook, then shame on Steve for his taste. If Brook chased Steve, then shame on Steve for wanting to have sex/an affair with her.
Regardless, she ain’t got no alibi
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd for the U-G-L-Y
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Not always true ma'am
We’re pretty damned stupid as a gender.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
My thought on the matter was
“Who the fuck would have sex with Steve Phillips?”
So I guess we’re sort of even.
highlifeman
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
I'll kiss her ass if she was a Seal
It’ll take me a day and a half, but I’ll do it.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I think you've made another mistake.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Do be so kind as to point that out.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
That she did not imply that he was himself a racist.
As Gray is trying to help you realize.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again:
I was referring to the fact that she seized upon Cowboy’s comments to point out that she believes we live in a racist society.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
But the comment wasn't just personally hurtful.
Some things are commonly acknowledged to be unacceptable and the particular slur he used is one of them. There’s nothing wrong with talking about that.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
But andromache went a step further and used the comment as evidence that society is inherently racist and that’s what I have a problem with.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
you really don't see
that our society is inherently racist?
Wow. Just wow.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
No, see, because we've got a black president, we're good.
Since we totally live in a post-racial society, there’s no such thing as white privilege anymore. We’re all part of one completely non-prejudiced tapestry!
by thevole on Apr 3, 2010 9:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why are you trying to pass your opinion off as fact?
Black, white, purple with polka dots… It doesn’t matter to me, and I don’t think it matters to very many people anymore. White people piss off other white people all the time, but for some reason whenever they piss off anyone else we have to hear about how racist we all are. I think the only people who even care what color someone’s skin is are the people who are crying racism all the time.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani on Apr 5, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But see, you don't agree.
You’ve expressed a problem with the discussion. One of the pieces of the discussion is asking why he said what he said. It seems like everyone here is steering clear of saying that Brantley himself is racist or intended any maliciousness— and I agree with that. If he’s not himself an isolated racist, though, then something else is at work. Andromache has provided one suggestion as to why this happened. What’s your explanation? Obviously, you’re welcome to disagree with andromache’s assertion. It’s just part of the conversation—but the conversation is good and intended to get to the root of the problem.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I believe that I have made my point abundantly clear.
Here it is again: Jeff Brantley misspoke. That is not racism.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
I don't buy it
“Misspoke” might be what happens if he mangles Nyger Morgan’s name.
What he said was not a mistake, and if it wasn’t said out of personal malice, then it was a reflection of societal stereotypes.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Societal stereotypes?
So now if I joke around about Chinese names being hard to pronounce, I’m stereotyping? Look, foreign languages are just that: foreign. They are strange to pronounce. Big deal. Look somewhere else for “racism” and “stereotyping”. Jeff Brantley just misspoke.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
I don't think that's what he's saying at all
And in fact, if all he said was that he had trouble pronouncing Asian names, then I don’t think you could fault him for that. But did he have to throw an ethnic slur in there? I think that’s where he fucked up.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
But we all agreed that he wasn't trying to make a racially offensive statement.
I think the slur was a mistake. I think he just misspoke.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
So are you arguing that if
all of the intentions you ascribe to him are true, it’s impossible for there to be anything he would need to apologize for?
I’ve certainly done lots of stupid shit for which I’ve needed to apologize, even with good intentions. But I guess Brantley is a much better person than I am.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Wrong.
He should apologize. I just don’t think this incident has anything to do with racism. At all.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
And many of us disagree with you on that.
You have a very narrow definition of racism, and I’m sure that makes you feel better about the various privileges you enjoy in American society.
But it’s not very helpful for you to go beyond your absolute statements based on your narrow reading of the situation to argue that discussing it as an example of institutional racism at all is moronic and harmful.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
by Gray on Apr 3, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gee, sorry if I'm too narrow for you...
But my definition of racism DOES NOT extend to people unintentionally offending other people.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Right, and you keep refusing to see
that this isn’t about people taking offense. This is about how Brantley’s statement is an example of the many ways in which society is slanted towards certain minorities. And, sure, you can refuse to broaden your definition of racism, but you can’t insist on applying your definition as a way of saying that something isn’t an example of racism.
Andromache wrote a long explanation for her feelings on this, and you keep trying to boil this down to her being offended by a remark. As she and plenty of others have said, this is about much more. I would encourage you to try to understand what she means by that before dismissing it out of hand.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
You don't seem to understand that I fundamentally disagree with her argument.
I understand the remark being in bad taste, but I don’t agree with her views on society-at-large. Please stop assuming that I misunderstand or that I am uninformed. I am neither.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
It doesn't, to an extent
It doesn’t have anything to do with racism if the racism issue is that Brantley is a racist. But he used a common racial slur to refer to a group of people, and that is the racist issue. Not that he’s a racist, but that he said something with racist connotations.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i think your argument breaks down here
where I’m from, a lot of (white) people think it’s acceptable to use the n-word. and oftentimes it’s not even meant maliciously racist. they just don’t know any better. so here, brantley doesn’t know any better. we all agree on that. but i think mache is justified in pointing it out and saying, dude, you should know better.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
But I am trying to assert the possibility that Brantley simply didn't think about the possible racist nature that his remarks could have before he said them.
Maybe he just put his foot in his mouth and race isn’t an issue.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
but race is the issue whether he thought about the possible racist nature of his comments or not
the point of this post, to me, is not to villify brantley but to point out that it’s a stupid thing to say that is racially charged, and here’s why. you seem to think that people here are on a witch hunt to root out racists. i dont think thats the case.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
But it doesn't matter whether race
was an “issue” for him, because it definitely is. When you say something that has been used to denigrate a group of people for years, then yes, it’s an issue.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Then have him apologize for saying something that he didn't know was a racist remark.
But let’s dispense with the shitstorm of “racism” and “stereotyping”. That is what I’m on about.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani2 on Apr 4, 2010 12:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I tend to agree a little with kaz here ...
inside the confines of POV. But the problem I have tried to underline in a couple of posts here is that the Reds hired somebody to broadcast baseball games who may or may be inclined to make this sort of comment.
Why did they hire him? My hunch is they wanted an “old Dizz” sorta former pitcher who could McCarver us with insight, yee-haw us with laid-back I-eat-chikkin comments and doo-wakka do.
Marty and tHom play into it all the time. So does the new guy. If the conversation had been, “is Brantley likely to offend somebody?” I’d have said, “50-50 chance of it.”
When did the thinking start? Hell, it could have been worse.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
I don't think it's as simple as "not knowing" it's a racist remark.
I can’t ever remember or imagine anyone using the phrase “ching-chang” that wasn’t in an ethnically derogatory way. It’s almost a certainty that he has heard it used as a racist remark. So I see it as a question of if he knew or should have known it was objectionable.
IAN! I'm on traain!
slogans and such
used to be, you’d hear somebody say “I jewed him down on the price.” You nod, understand, no big deal.
No difference, this comment. My point is that Brantley is probably not educated enough to be in a radio booth announcing ball games.
When will ballclubs begin to realize they can’t just drag some drawl into the booth and tell him to be an announcer.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
What if you heard a phrase, but didn't know its origin?
Is it not plausible that someone can hear a phrase, not know its true meaning or use, misuse it and ignorance is an acceptable line of reasoning?
Not saying that’s the case with Brantley, but it’s very possible for this situation to happen.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that's very possible.
To clarify, I don’t think there’s any reason to conclude that every person should know about every possible racist slur out there. To me, this is like the difference between kazahani’s “stepping on toes” metaphor and instances like these. Given the history and popularity of this specific phrase, I think that this situation was avoidable, and Brantley should have known better.
IAN! I'm on traain!
As opposed to something like being Votto being called out at first when he was clearly safe
And Brantley (or anyone) saying he was “gypped” by the call.
I have misspoken a bit myself in the past
And I have felt the need to apologize if I offended someone because of what I said. It’s just the right thing to do.
I don’t think it’s hypersensitive to have felt offended by what he said, particlularly if you’ve been called a Ching-Chong yourself (as I have).
For example, had he said any of the following, he would have probably drawn a very strong reaction from the relevant ethnic group (I leave you to fill in the various sounds yourself, since I’d rather not perpetuate this sort of stuff):
1. “I was in Israel for Passover, and I couldn’t pronounce any of their names…”
2. “I was invited to speak to the baseball team at Howard University, and I couldn’t pronounce any of their names….”
3. “I went to Ireland last year, and I couldn’t pronounce any of their names…”
4. “I went to Germany last year, and I couldn’t pronounce any of their names…”
5. “I went to Mexico to announce the winter league games, and I couldn’t pronounce any of their names…”
Do you get the point?
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I still don't think it's off-base to say that he had trouble pronouncing the names
They’re not common names in the area in which he’s grown up and lived, and yes, it’s ignorant and unprofessional to not be able to pronounce names you’re broadcasting, but I don’t think it’s racist. The racist part of the discussion is the “ching-chong” line.
A better comparison would be if he was announcing the Italian team and talking about how he can’t pronounce their “wop” names.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
there are a lot of broacasters that call duke's coach "Coach K" as opposed to his actual name
it’s because his name is difficult to pronounce.
i don’t think those announcers are ignorant or unprofessional for doing that.
See below.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don't get it.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
That's racist.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Shuh-Shef-Skee
Not hard to pronounce at all. It just seemingly has nothing to do with the way his name is spelled.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
it's still hard to pronounce the back to back sh sounds
she sells sea shells is a tongue twister for a reason
I think it's a tongue twister because of the alternating s- and sh- sounds.
“She shells shea shells” is a little difficult, but way easier than the original.
IAN! I'm on traain!
I might think of it as easier to pronounce since I grew up in North Carolina
Hard to root against someone for years and not know their name really well.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 3, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree, that is definitely unprofessional
It’s the same as one of our announcers looking at a name on his scoresheet and saying something like “I’m not even going to try and pronounce that”. It’s remedied by a little homework and practice, and exactly what someone who gets paid to talk on the radio should do to make themselves and their company sound foolish.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
To be clear
I wasn’t taking issue with the fact that he could not pronounce the names.
It’s the stuff that would go after the ellipses that would bother people, I think, and it would be that stuff that would warrant an apology.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Then apologize.
Still no racism. It’s a language thing, not a race thing. Chinese LANGUAGE. Not Chinese PEOPLE.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
I think that was andromache's original point.
Which I guess you agree with now.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That wasn't anything close to her original point.
I don’t think there is any racism here. Also, I don’t think America is inherently racist.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
exactly BK
I have trouble saying Asian names and words. In China I kept saying “I pissed myself” instead of “thank you”. The Asian language is very different than ares. Asians struggle with English words. Go to an Asian hotel and read the English version of the emergency instructions.
It is to be expected that we have trouble using each others language, but he could have said that in a more tactful way.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
Misspeaking is very different.
He wasn’t TRYING to say a specific name and it just HAPPENED to come out as ching-chong. He thought he was being clever and probably trying to appeal to our inherently racist society.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
That is sheer conjecture, and a baseless accusation.
You have no idea what he was thinking, and neither do I. It’s possible that he was being purposefully racist, but it is equally possible that he made what he thought was an innocent comment about the Chinese language being strange to him.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
We are racist, nationlist, ect
I’ve been doing a lot of research on ethnic history, and everybody is pretty fuckin racist.
You have Kipling and White Man’s burden.
I’m really too tired to go into more detail, but yes we are racist.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
Yeah, I'm looking through the post.
I haven’t seen him called a racist.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
This poster gets it
kazzhani2 must be reading my mind
Brantley’s comments are much ado about nothing.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because Brantley's a fucking moron it doesn't excuse his chinging and changin'
He’s insensitive buffoon who probably will never understand why his comments are so importantly offensive.
Potential doesn't win games.
I guess it's just me then
I hear “ching-chang’in” and then read it in context, and I can’t help but just chuckle, b/c it’s fucking funny. It’s on the same level as Hong Kong Phooey in my book. I’ve consulted some of my Asian friends about this, and only 1 out of 9 came even remotely close to andromache’s sentiment. So, I guess I should make the illogical fallacy and say that only 11% of Asian should be upset about Brantley’s remark.
Like I said before, there’s plenty of worse racial slurs to call Asians, and Brantley didn’t use any of them. Laugh about this and move on. It’s much healthier that way.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
What if they made fun of your name on a live broadcast? Besides, this isn't personal - he was speaking generally.
I also doubt there are Chinese rhymes about Billy-Bob that say “Ching Chong, Chinaman/Sitting on a wall/Along came a white man/And chopped his tail off.” Of course, there may be, and that would be racist – but that doesn’t make it ok here.
Yes, sometimes we make unavoidable mistakes that hurt people, but this wasn’t unavoidable. There was significant suggestion on the other thread (some serious, some not) of what Brantley could have said without resorting to offensive language. There’s a difference between stepping on someone’s toe, and flailing through a crowd of people with giant steel boots on.
IAN! I'm on traain!
So what if they did? How does that betray some fundamental flaw in society?
Look, not too many years ago, racism meant the Jim Crow south. It meant signs on the door saying “No Coloreds”. It meant fire hoses and attack dogs. Today, people have co-opted the word to now include insensitive remarks made by baseball announcers in an offhand way. I call bullshit. Get over it.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
So you're arguing
that the only form of true racism is that of the Jim Crow South?
Really? There are no other institutional barriers to nonwhites in American society, ever?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
My point is this: We all agree that Cowboy was not being intentionally offensive, so why are we all offended? It is his fault that he misspoke, but does he deserve to be labeled a racist? And are we really a racist society because our radio announcers speak without thinking sometimes?
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
I think Andromache
explained pretty clearly why it matters, even if it wasn’t said with malice.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Yes. She gave an perfectly reasonable argument.
I am simply disagreeing with it.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
And saying that making her argument
is “harmful.” Do you see why this was an unreasonable thing for you to say?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I happen to think it harms the situation when people cry "RACISM!!"
about every little thing. It stirs up trouble. Remember the boy who cried wolf?
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani on Apr 3, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, those people should just keep their mouths shut and take it.
Can’t have them stirring up trouble! Don’t they remember the boy who cried wolf?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
There is a difference between letting someone know that they have offended you,
and playing the race card. I don’t think it applies here. He was just talking about Chinese being difficult to pronounce.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
That's your interpretation of his statement.
You say that he “was just talking about Chinese being difficult to pronouce,” and andromache pointed out that what he said actually has a long history as a racial epithet. So, two questions:
1) How is it “playing the race card” for her to point this out?
2) Why is your interpretation—as an unaffected party who has no knowledge of how this slur has been used—not only valid but more valid than hers, in the sense that you think you can call her explanation harmful?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Ok, once again:
1) I’m not talking about that. If she wants to point out that he may have said something offensive, fine. Don’t inject racism into it. It doesn’t need to be brought up because he simply made a mistake.
2)I’m not trying to change your mind here, Gray. It is my opinion that people today use racism to describe anything that offends someone else. I disagree with that because racism implies motive. It implies that Jeff Brantley said what he said because society is discriminatory to Asians or because he dislikes Asians himself. It’s my opinion. It doesn’t invalidate andromache’s opinion. Perhaps I made a mistake by making an absolute statement. I should have made it clear that my opinion of her argument is that it is harmful.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
She's not
injecting racism into it. He injected racism into it by saying something that’s been used as a racist slur for years. Please stop blaming andromache for pointing this out.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Once again,
I’m not blaming her for any such thing. It’s not the fact that she is pointing out that he may have said something wrong that I have a problem with. It’s her scathing indictment of society.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
like i said, it's not a "scathing indictment" of society
it’s just an observation. people are very aware of everyone else’s race
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
As I think boobs is also saying
you’re the one who’s interpreting what she said as a “scathing indictment.”
Andromache just pointed out that this is a symptom of institutional racism, which is why we should care when someone makes comments that perpetuate it. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to freak out over anyone mentioning racism instead of talking about how to improve things constructively.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
You couldn't get me to take that trip if you super glued my balls to the train
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I'd cut em off
God knows they’ve caused me enough trouble as it is.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
in which case he could have said
“Those Chinese names were hard to pronounce.”
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Yep.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, didn't you also call it moronic?
And, incidentally, sorry if it seems like everyone’s ganging up on you. Perhaps someone else will come and help you fight your corner.
IAN! I'm on traain!
I'm sorry, but if you are trying to say that
Jeff Brantley’s quip is proof that American society is unequivocally racist, then yes. Your argument will get classified squarely in my “moronic” folder
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
My point was not to argue that.this is evidence of societal racism.
My point was to say that because of societal racism, people need to be more careful in what they say, because even if something is said without any malicious intent, it can still be damaging to society.
Also, I’m not sure an argument can be both “perfectly reasonable” and “moronic.” Maybe I’m confused as to what you were referring to with these descriptors.
IAN! I'm on traain!
There are two separate issues here.
You pointed out that Cowboy offended people with his remarks. That is perfectly reasonable. In addition, you assumed a state of societal racism, and tied Mr. Brantley’s comments into your social allegory. That is what I view, in my own personal opinion, as moronic.
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
i dont get why you deny societal racism
pretty much everyone sees race and makes judgments in some way, even if its only subconscious and the make painstaking efforts not to let their judgments see air. no one is insinuating that this means that society is bad because of it. it’s just the way it is. i think talking about it is the best way to understand the way people perceive races.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
If your definition of racism is that broad...
Then why does it even matter? I pass a man on the street, notice that he is a black man, Asian man, or white. Now I’m racist?
No degree of prosperity can be sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
I do not volunteer for that duty.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I can get worked up over this.
In the realm of racist/offensive comments, this was a fairly tame one. Brantley shouldn’t have said it, but his goal wasn’t to belittle (ha, like they can get littler!) or hurt any Asian individuals. That’s where the line between racism and ignorance is drawn, in my view. I don’t believe Jeff Brantley’s particular brand of racism is anything more than a collection of stereotypes bred from his upbringing and general stupidity than from his belief in the racial superiority of the white man. Brantley’s an ignoramus, but I strongly disagree with the notion of his comments being racist. I find it hard to buy into the idea of racism without malice, as I think they pretty much go hand in hand. The comments were ignorant and they may have been hurtful, but racist is a stretch (and if you call what someone says racist, you’re pretty much calling them a racist).
The apology that the Reds might force Brantley to make is also a big waste of time. It brings more attention to this issue (which is going to spread his offensive comments to adults and children and possibly influence them) and it’s not going to mean anything. If Jeff Brantley does apologize, it won’t be because he feels like he made an offensive comment and deeply regrets it, it’ll be because he doesn’t want to lose his job and/or deal with the outrage this is causing (and I’m guessing we see this story really take off within the next couple of days). The mindset of Jeff Brantley will not change. The mindset of the people who originally heard the comment will not change. I can’t imagine being very comforted by a late apology that I know is insincere, which is all that Brantley can offer up at this point. In terms of his punishment, I’m hoping for nothing more than a stern talking-to from his bosses, a slap on the wrist, and a warning that if he continues to make similarly offensive comments then more serious punitive actions will come down.
I’m not sure I believe in the idea of “renewing the racism”, though. The human mind is a little more complicated than “well shit, if Jeff Brantley can get away with being racist then so can I”. Legitimate, hateful, malicious racism (not what we have here) is borne of a variety of deep-seeded sources, most of them related to how one is brought up and one’s past experiences with people of a different race. Every person on the face of this planet has subconscious stereotypes and feelings that have been forming and changing throughout their lives. Most people are able to either mold or suppress these to society-conforming standards, but some people have a serious case of word vomit and let these things come out in a public setting (see: Baker, Dusty). My faith in humanity is just high enough for me to believe that Jeff Brantley does not have a significant impact on the formation of the future racists in our society.
by Geki on Apr 3, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I didn't get it.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't get it, didn't understand it, or didn't agree with it?
Or all of the above?
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 3, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
So you've done your share of reading on RR for the entire season, then?
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Some good and interesting points in here.
but I just want to respond to one of them:
The apology that the Reds might force Brantley to make is also a big waste of time… and it’s not going to mean anything. If Jeff Brantley does apologize, it won’t be because he feels like he made an offensive comment and deeply regrets it, it’ll be because he doesn’t want to lose his job and/or deal with the outrage this is causingThis very well might be true, but it may not be. If he truly isn’t aware that what he said was offensive, and it’s brought to his attention that he offended some people, I like to think he might genuinely want to apologize for that.
I also think there’s inherent value in apologizing when something bad has happened. I think I’ve already said it, but it’s important to acknowledge hurt. It’s the first step in moving on.
by the finest muffins on Apr 3, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that a whole lot of little things can have a large effect in the aggregate.
Because Jeff Brantley is heard by a large number of people, the things he says have more of an effect. What happens when you hear it from Brantley, and from Shaq, and Rosie O’Donnell, and Adam Carolla?
And I’m much more interested in Brantley never doing it again than in receiving any formal apology.
IAN! I'm on traain!
True.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I like Adam Carolla
And I would never listen to Rosie O’Donnell anyway.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And would it really be so bad
for Brantley to have to acknowledge that he at least thought about how his (widely broadcast) words impacted others?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Yep well saind and don't foprget that Clownboy isd just that - Clownboy
and he’s a turd too.
Potential doesn't win games.
I'm sorry, my wife is yelling at me.
I have to go eat dinner…
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
by kazahani2 on Apr 3, 2010 5:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
i disagree with you, but i like your ability to keep your cool despite fighting a 1-on-10 battle
kudos
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
sensible debate.
kazahani stayed inside the parameters.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
All I've got to say to Brantley is...
LEAVE YOUR STUPID COMMENTS IN YOUR POCKET!!!
(The Room, Tommy Wiseau, anyone?)
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Neither do I.
What, me? Being negative? No. Never.
by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to watch it with a big group.
It’s generally considered to be one of, if not the worst movie ever made.
Lots of drinking games with it, I guess.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
you really are just like freshman me
i didn’t really drink as a freshman, did things like watch bad movies with large groups of people. I didn’t get the college girlfriend until sophmore year though.
Crolfer in 4 years you will be:

Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
we can only hope
that the ladybug puts a gun to his head and saves him the misery.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 5, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
the misery of being in Dublin?
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Apr 5, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, but my other stupid comment's going to be hailing a taxi cab.
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 3, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ironically enough
Taxi, and taxi cab are “racist slurs” for Asians.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I knew I should've gone with "making a peace sign."
But that’s similar to an offensive gesture in other parts of the world. Flicking a cigarette? That would be promoting smoking to children.
Man, this PC stuff is hard.
IAN! I'm on traain!
Which is why if this wasn't such a politicallly correct World, none of this would be a problem
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The World as a whole, no
but America’s trying to become more PC, which is probably yet another reason why the rest of the World doesn’t care for America
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 5, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
You had me at "My deviant sushi lifestyle is not going to upset the sanctity of your hotdog."
Seriously though, I think the bottom line here, everyone, is that no matter what you think about the situation, racist or not, intentional or not, requiring an apology or not, it matters to someone and detracts from their enjoyment of something (in this case, a baseball game) that should have no negative experiences attached (aside from losses, bad roster management, etc. – those baseball-related things we’ve come to know and despise as Reds fans). It can’t happen again, and Jeff Brantley should be a smart enough human being to realize that when he is on the air, he is a representative of the Cincinnati Reds, and needs to speak accordingly.
by Ash on Apr 3, 2010 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Whatever, you stupid mick
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
That's... oh, Jeremy.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, I heard somebody on the radio use the word and figured it was fair game
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
See, here's the proof that Brantley's comments are dangerous...
People like jch are listening.
by Ash on Apr 3, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a derogatory word used toward Irish people.
So, yes, that’s racist.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
And Ash is a little Irish, hence the joke :)
I found out the other day that I’m part French, so I suppose I owe Failcouer an apology.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Sacre bleu!
Can we start calling you Frenchy now?
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd like that
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Fern
Isnt Fern a frenchlike house plant?
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch
I think so.....
But ferns tend to get dusty. Know of any good housekeeping services to take care of that for me?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Then we're not doing it
Sieg heil!
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 3, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
explain your email address then
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
you stupid kraut
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
a very nonsensical nickname given to me back in the day
Had nothing to do with my ethnic heritage.
by Ash on Apr 3, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
also, i have no clue or desire to know my ancestor's nationalities
it’s always been something i’ve considered completely meaningless
Adopted myself
Aren’t there a rather high number of us on the site?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
not all of us son.
hell, not all of us are liberal either.
im bringing the Adopted Diversity here.
"then skip it"....
So are mine, being 6'3" and white with brown eyes and hair
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
Were you on a peter and someone knocked you off?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
as someone mostly Irish
to heck with it… I’ll go drink more beer.
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
my kind of guy
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Just for obc
Tell that mick that he just made my list of things to do today!
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
The lead singer is left handed, sweet!
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
The very same
It bugs me that a band like that can’t find a less shitty place to play a show.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 4, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Until you've been to Mad Hatter, you can't tell me how I feel about Mad Hatter
"The Asian language is very different than ares." -- Justin007000
It can't happen again?
But we all know it will, whether it comes from the mouth of Jeff Brantley, or another radio announcer
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with shouldn't
Can’t is a strong word, b/c I’m of the semi-strong opinion that on some level all flavors need to desensitize slurs. Certain words will hurt more than others, but only b/c the collective “we” let them.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, I miss RR Reporter
Personally, I can’t stand Hillbillies. And terrorists. And gangstas. And suburban males who mimic urban males. And Miami University students/grads/dropouts.
Everyone else is pretty much on my good side.
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch
I hate suburban females who mimic urban females!
This sounds like a symptom of a greater societal problem! I’d better write a long post about it for the front page!
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 4, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
As a Miami University grad
I’m offended!!! Wahhh! Apologize! :)
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
so you hate me on two levels
As when I am home with the family in the summer i am an suburban male, and when i’m at school i’m an urban male.
You may even hate me on 3 levels, because I have taken 5 classes at Miami. I didn’t dropout or graduate though, and I’m not a current student.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
Why is this on the front page?
This is possibly my least favorite thread of all time
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch
then skip it
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
by Slyde on Apr 3, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joining Red Reporter
Community Guidelines:
There are three rules on this site:
1. Be respectful to others. Name-calling will not be tolerated.
2. Avoid the non-baseball related hot button topics as much as possible.
3. Everything else in moderation.
When posting at this blog, please follow this one simple rule: Before hitting "post" to post your remarks, ask yourself: "Would I be embarrassed to say this in front of strangers who were physically present in the room with me and could respond to my face?" If the answer is "yes," then don’t post. RR encourages and welcomes all opinions, no matter how strong; however, personal attacks and other uncivilized forms of expression are not welcome. Thanks for understanding.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Apr 3, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
double rec'd
i nominate “then skip it” as the new Red Reporter Mission Statement!
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch
Just because
Brantley rarely talks about baseball on the air does not make this non-baseball related.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on Apr 3, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
aaaaaaand it's official
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Yeah,
except for when I get to see END in person down in the DR I don’t feel I have much to add. But when it comes to thinking about racism and issues of social justice, this is what I live and breath. And more than anything else, it should be clear from this incident that you cannot separate baseball from society. As much as we would like it to be this magical bubble world free of all the icky history and present full of hate and discrimination and exploitation and marginalization, it is not, has never been, and until we change society as a whole, it never will be.
First, I want to give props to Andromache for posting this and opening up this debate. I want to highlight what Andromache mentioned about the racist structure of society as a whole and take it a step further to bring something to the forefront that is sorely missing here in the conversation: what has been and is the affect of racism and xenophobia on the material reality of non-"white" and non-"citizen" people in the USA?
In general, race and racism have been a tool that historically have decided who is targeted for economic exploitation globally as well as particularly in the USA. Obviously, Africans brought to the Americas were dehumanized to legitimize and make possible their vicious exploitation during the slavery which ended officially only about 150 years ago. We are still dealing with the repercussions of that system racially, politically, culturally and economically today.
My knowledge of Asian-American history is much weaker but I do know that Asians in the US were largely responsible for the construction of the transcontinental railroad- work for which they were underpaid and exposed to extremely dangerous conditions that resulted in thousands of deaths. This racism was also explicit and cruel during the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.
I would hesitate to dismiss racism that is not "intentionally malicious" because of this historic connection between racism and exploitation. Racist language, whether intentional or not, is just one aspect of the bigger picture. It is an aspect that creates and reinforces a culture where it becomes normal to, at best, not take non-"white" people seriously when (or if) "white" people interact with them, and at worst helps make it normal to employ non-“white” in non-dignified jobs and pay them very little.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on Apr 3, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think what is difficult for many on this line of reasoning
is the relentless focus on the fault of white people. Yes, white people did bad things to people with more melanin than themselves. But Hutus did bad things to Tutsis, Japanese did bad things to Koreans, and Chinese did bad things to both of them. Heck, Navajo did bad things to Cherokee (or maybe vice versa — I don’t know that we have any good history of pre-Columbian Native American relationships.
Tribes have done bad things to other tribes for centuries. We should try hard to stop doing that. On that point, we agree. But let’s not dump all the blame on one particular bad tribe.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
The point isn't that lots of bad things are the fault of white people
but that in American society, white people enjoy lots of privileges just by being white. Just like men get treated differently from women, or heterosexuals from non-heterosexuals, or what have you. In most cases, though, the white privilege is the most significant.
So again, the point isn’t to “blame” white people, but it is useful for us to be aware of the privilege we have.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
yeah i dont see it as blaming white people
more often, it seems like white people like to act like racism isnt a real thing ever since the civil rights movement and that any discussion regarding race equates to “playing the race card.” white people in american are also more likely to dismiss the issue because they’ve never experienced being a minority. so i don’t see it so much blaming white people as trying to get them to understand, because theyre the ones who need it explained to them the most.
i am white, by the way.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
As am I
And I’ve experienced racism in a lot of ways. I’ve had shit thrown at me, physical violence threatened (the best was the 80ish grandma who tried to hit me), and awful things said. Point is, you can’t fix stupid. There just happen to be a lot more white folk in the US, hence a larger number of stupid racists. I firmly believe the percentages are the same across the board.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
But one point is,
and I think this has been a point of confusion throughout this discussion: racism isn’t just about overt insults, physical violence, and threats. Institutional racism refers to the way systems are set up to favor certain people.
What andromache referred to is the ways in which many systems are set up to make things difficult for foreigners in general, or for Hispanics or blacks. But while one major symptom of this is stupid comments like what we heard here, we shouldn’t fully equate the underlying institutional racism to what we experience when someone makes a remark referencing our race.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
is there a country on earth
where things aren’t more difficult for “foreigners” in general?
"then skip it"....
Yeah, that's a great excuse for discriminating against them.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I feel ya
But honestly, the only solution is to let those people die. They’ll go away eventually, it just takes time.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I agree with you to a point.
Yes, people’s attitudes will change over time, and those with outdated attitudes will die off first.
That said, my point was that this isn’t about the people. It’s about the underlying system. Comments that remind people of the structural racism are only one symptom of that racism.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
The people I speak of are the ones in charge of the system
They’re running shit now, but the younger people are coming up without the ingrained stereotypes/racism. Change takes time is all I’m sayin’.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I think it is
important to name the people and movements that have worked hard to make change in the US and all over the world.
It is not just that people just change on their own while old views die out, organized people do and have done consciousness raising work, mobilized people, and put their blood, sweat, and lives into work for social change.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on Apr 3, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, those people should be lauded
But let’s be honest……it will change when the idiots die off.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
But memories are a fading mufukkah
It dies a little more every time down the chain.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
yeah
It was just awhile back if you remember
(seriously) you had to apologize to the group if you said “fuck” in front of a woman, who you could call a “babe” and be perfectly OK saying it.
Now, if you call her a babe, she will probably tell you to go fuck yourself,
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Times, they're a changin' friend
It’s happening at a much faster rate nowadays due to technology/societal influences, but it’s happening. I can’t wait until I’m the minority.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I've never denied thst
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
A sped up drummer?
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 4, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
the nice thing about our society
the smarter you are, the less likely you are to be a victim.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Lots of people,
mostly organized women from all backgrounds, worked (and still work) pretty hard to make our culture less oppressive to women.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on Apr 4, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont support letting anyone die
i think that’s insensitive.
"then skip it"....
by obc2 on Apr 3, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's more class based than race-based
At least in the SF Bay Area, I do. You can get a job at a startup pretty easily if you are white, or Asian, or Indian, or gay, or just about anything else, as long as you have a degree from a good expensive university, that you only got into because your parents had enough money to fund your extra-curriculars, and you could concentrate on school because you didn’t have to work to help pay the rent.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
by bbjones on Apr 3, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
WE FINALLY HAVE A WINRAR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Apr 4, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This comment is going to decompress my ZIP files?
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 4, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Oh, this is a BIG REC!
Bingo on this one!
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
You have a good point, but I think class and race are still linked.
(In general) it bugs me when people talk about race without talking about class, as well as when people talk about class and don’t talk about race. This particular situation did not originally seem to me to be about class at all, but the talk in the comments, even about Brantley’s class, reminds me that it’s never far behind.
I will say that studying the law, and some of the information I’ve gotten through that process is really what convinced me that we have a race problem beyond class. (Not just some crazy bleeding-heart liberal idea that that’s what I should think.)
IAN! I'm on traain!
Implied talk
Folks who live in upper middle class seem to me perfectly willing to entertain the notion of ethnic diversity.
They invite Asian women into school to teach the kiddies how to draw ancient dragons.
They invite African women in to wear their traditional hats and gowns. All very nice and wonderful. There are a few Indians and Pakistanis in the area, very nice and wonderful. They’re doctors, live in very big houses, drive Mercedes.
Isn’t diversity wonderful, they say over tea as they try to pronounce “butterfly love” in Nepalese.
Roberto comes to visit every day, but he and his assistant Paco are just the pool boys. They have to leave before dark.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
To echo Andromache here about the connection between race and class,
if you are person of color then you are less likely to be able to afford a degree from an expensive university. Income distribution is not random. There is a history (and a presentt) of who tends to produce wealth and who tends to accumulates it.
Another dynamic thing about the intersection of race and class is how poor “white” people are taught to hate people of color and immigrants, and how poor blacks are taught to hate poor immigrants from Latin America. Instead of working together to name and confront the class system that is exploiting them all, they remain divided and turn their energy and frustration upon each other.
I would also argue that being an “out” gay person becomes much easier when you are financially stable and not economically dependent on a potentially homophobic family or community.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on Apr 4, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
to add
Part of that about Latins is accurate for good reason. That being the way the whites have traditionally treated the Puerto Ricans.
Usually, whites think the PRs are just like the Mexicans. They get treated the same, after all, they all eat tacos, right?
Puerto Ricans are not pleased that they have to produce a green card just like a Mexican does. Well, hell, they’re all alike, aren’t they?
That one is tough. I get it, how tough it is. And some “Mexicans” were born here in the US of A, as I told one of my less tolerant associates once.
(This does not change the fact that yes, ’tHan is insane.) -- FVA
Verka, have you ever seen the movie "The Garden" about the community garden in South Central LA?
Very interesting (and sad) interplay between the primarily Latin farmers and African-American community organizers, and the eventual refusal of the owner to sell the land, partially, because someone on the internet (not affiliated with the farmers, but in support of them) accused him of being part of the “Jewish mafia,” and partially because he didn’t see the farmers as being grateful or humble enough.
IAN! I'm on traain!
Can I work with you?
I am dead serious.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
Hey, I'll admit that I encouraged this post from andromache
Normally I don’t like these things, but I believe it was relevant in the context of the origin of the statement. This is different than asking people if they voted for Obama just to start a political conversation, in my opinion.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Before hitting post I ask myself...
Is this a torrent of masturbatory fecal slush?
Then I flush…er hit post
Potential doesn't win games.
Honestly
I find Daugherty more overtly racist than Brantley. I think Brantley tried to make a poor joke, and failed. Daugherty is a dick on purpose.
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
Time for a real response to this
Look, every single one of us face stereotypes every day of our lives. Whether it is due to our stature, our religion, our background, our ethnicity, or some random “frowned upon” quality, someone somewhere looks upon us with a predetermined mindset. It’s not fair, but it’s life. Hell, a number of comics have made a living making fun of the goofy white guy. I don’t give a shit. I’ve also had some really bad things said to me and and been threatened with physical violence because of my skin color. Again, I don’t give a shit.
The Reds should not apologize for this. They should talk to Brantley, and if he feels sorry, he should apologize. If not, he shouldn’t. If he doesn’t, fire him because he’s a tool. Done.
It is absolutely implied in the post that Brantley is on some level racist, which I disagree with. He’s a damned idiot and from a different generation, but I don’t believe he’s racist. He’s part of the same demographic I’ve dealt with many times……like telling my ex-mother-in-law it was inappropriate to refer to my kids as yardapes. She honestly didn’t see the problem, it was just a word she heard from her mother and grandmother growing up. The good news is, these people are dying off. How many under-40 people do you know that would ever use that word?
There were many suggestions in this thread about what can be done to combat ignorance and racism. My suggestion would be that when you see it, confront it. In person, right then, right there. It’s funny to see someone make a racist joke and be confronted and watch them backpedal. Don’t bitch about it later, confront it immediately. This approach is FAR more effective than huffing and puffing as you excuse yourself and bitching about it to people later. I realize that none of us can directly confront Brantley on this issue, I’m speaking in general terms.
I can honestly say I don’t give a rat’s ass what color/ethnicity/whatever someone is. In my experience, there are good people and bad people. They come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. But you’ll be able to tell which category they fall into within about 5 minutes.
With that, I’m done. I have to clean the house and get prepared for my son’s birthday in the morning. I love all you. Good night kids, see you tomorrow night/Monday morning.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Here's how I see it:
(apologies for any unclear points or typos, I’m writing this from my phone.)
The problem isn’t Brantley’s intelligence or his racial sensitivity. It’s got nothing to do with his beliefs or prejudices or ANYTHING. it’s got to do with the fact that the man said “ching-chong,” and that’s not OK. Whether or not it was on the radio doesn’t make it any more or less OK – that kind of talk is not OK in any environment. I’d like to hear Jeff Brantley say “I used a term on the radio that I have since learned is a slur, and I apologize for that. I will eliminate that term from my vocabulary.” but even if he doesn’t, at least this post might remind people that no matter the intent, bad talk is always bad. Good job, andromache.
by thevole on Apr 3, 2010 9:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 4 recs
Easy to pick on Brantly
as long as we feel it is alright if we “joke” with hurtful/racist/class affixing words that have been used within this thread I think it would be best to look at each of our roles in America’s race isuues. Don’t agree with what he said just think people in glass houses should be careful throwing stone?
I have to admit something
I wang chunged tonight. And I had fun tonight. Everybody did, in fact.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
That's rac...
Wait, maybe not. I’m so confused now…
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I chunged my wang today in the yard
Hurt like a motherfucker.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Racism is genetic.
I’m a racist you’re a racist, all God’s chillun’s is racist.
Sooooooooooooooooo?
You work on it. You try to think before you speak, you listen to others of different heritages, you encourage your kids to play with their kids and your daughter to marry their son…
Maybe someday the DNA will get so intertwined that racism will be bred out of the species.
But I doubt it.

Potential doesn't win games.
AHEM...........
That’s racist. That is all.
by RedsMasochist on Apr 4, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for posting this, andromache
I’ll have to catch up on the comments later, but this was the key for me:
Children (and adults) are still going to hear it, and think that it’s ok, and more than that, they’re going to take away the sentiment – that Chinese are “other”, and it’s cool to make fun of them.
I’ll just add that if I had been listening to this as a kid, it really would’ve sent a message to me that I wasn’t welcome. And that sucks. The relatively small number of Asian Americans in the Cincinnati area makes it easy to feel isolated at times, and comments like Brantley’s reinforce it. Doesn’t really matter if Brantley had no ill intent.
I’d really like Brantley to address this. Not long ago Marty apologized for something much more benign, imo.
by ken on Apr 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
racism
i am hearing all this bull crap about racism on this page,i am from eastern kentucky and we have been called a whole lot worse than the term jeff used.you don’t see people run up to defend us when so called educated people and pc people call us some of the most derogatory names you can think of.it is just a bunch people on here that have nothing better to do and no common sense at all. if we let people like you have control over what a person says pretty soon we will have to ask you to go to the bathroom!!!GROW UP PEOPLE YOU AREN’T KIDS ANYMORE.also the last time i looked this was the land of free speech.you know you don’t have to like what is said but people have a right to say it.
I think that's a BINGO

Let me write out a formal proof for you.
by Gray on Apr 4, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I really wish there was an "Inappropriate use of the first amendment" square on that card.
IAN! I'm on traain!
and he is almost certianly better off here than in Africa
because he might not be able to get to Reds games as easily ;)
Let me guess
You have a cousin/great-uncle named Rusty?
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Apr 4, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
After skimming this thread, my quick take:
Sticks and stones. Sticks and stones. Brantley was just joking how hard foreign names are to pronounce. Hell, everything is hard for Brantley to pronounce. Brantley isn’t a racist. He’s just kinda an idiot.
And Rusty56 is right in that no one jumps up to defend the poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash….:)
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
You got somthin' against poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash?
Because Cincinnati is filled with poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash. I’m not sure how much more poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash we could fit into Cincinnati and the surrounding area. Furthermore I’d like to voulenteer that i have some poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash in my distant, Kentucky, family. But they are only mildly racist at best. There’s a clause in the rule book if you’re indeed a poor dumb hick hillbilly hilljack white trailer trash to the best of my understanding. So there’s no need to worry.
I live in the land of Hilljacks!
Or Dayton, as it’s more commonly known as. I named my fantasy baseball team the
Dayton White Trash. I think its a much better representation of Dayton than “Dayton Dragons”
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm also not a huge fan of pejoratives for the white rural or poorer classes.
I don’t like white trash or hick, and I don’t think I’ve said redneck or hillbilly since I graduated high school, almost certainly not in a public forum.
IAN! I'm on traain!
i love the famous rationalization for using the n-word
that i hear all the time where im from. “It’s not racist… there’s white people and black people, and then there’s white trash and n—.” Also, sir, there’s a way to be classist without also being racist.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I won't use the n-word
But trash is trash. Regardless of race.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
hey, I just looked it up on the internet.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
translation:
“If you wish this legere scis too much instruction government”
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Judge someone not by the color of their skin
But by the content of their character….And if the content of their character is trash, then they are trash.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Bottom line for me is
words are just words….they can only offend you if you let them offend you. And why let someone else have that power over you?
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
by that rationalization, it's black people's fault they get offended when white people use the n-word
do you believe that?
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
No I don't believe that
But I also think instead of being offended, you should just feel sad for the ignorant fool who says that.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I know I do.
This is now the second site that comes up on a good search for his name. Which he really doesn’t deserve.
IAN! I'm on traain!
I just tried that
it does, that isn’t too good. However, I think most would be distracted by the Griffey throat slash article. ;) Neverthless, the OP is very exaplnatory, so I don’t think they would get a carciatured idea of what happend. Even the title of the article doesn’t sound that bad “accidental racism”. I don’t think it will hurt Brantley unduly, is what I’m trying to say here, but I do feel a bit bad for him
That said
I’m not sure how I would react if someone called my wife (who is black) a n———.
Worst things we’ve ever gotten is some dirty looks sometimes at restaurants. I just ignore those people and go about my business.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Apr 4, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this
Call me what you want, it only hurts me if I let it.
I’m 1/2 Polish, and I’ve never been offended by anyone making fun of my Polish heritage, and I doubt I ever will.
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 4, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, can one of you computer experts tell me how I can make my external hard drive be drive "E:" and not "F:"?
I had another external memory plugged in earlier, but now even when I stop the disk and replug it in, it still comes up as f:
IAN! I'm on traain!
Probably depends on which version of Windows you're running, but
try this?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Since no one said this yet:
For those who say things like “thicker skin” and “race card” and that kind of BS – racism is not only lynch mobs and firehoses. Someone said “racism implies motive.” No it doesn’t. Racism is an institution. Continuing to use racist terminology keeps it institutionalized, much like posting pictures of women as objects guarantees a continuation of sexism. Brantley saying it on WLW is especially bad because Cincinnati isn’t known as the most tolerant part of the country, and when such an audience hears this kind of terminology, it just reinforces their ingrained racist/ignorant beliefs.
People who say things like “thicker skin” and “race card” refuse to acknowledge that racism exists in America, and this refusal makes them racist. I’m not sure “accidentally racist” is the proper term. Willfully ignorant, yes. Accidentally? Not sure. Being ignorant in this country is a choice.
Also, because someone said America is not an inherently racist country, I ask you this: Which race in America is disproportionally affected by poverty? That’s right, black. Now, you can either acknowledge that this is because racism is institutionalized in America, or you can say black people are lazy like so many white Americans do. If you say the latter, you’re a racist pig. So you’re left with the former if you truly are not a racist. Pretending America is not a racist country is even more ignorant than Brantley’s stupid comments.
You don’t have to be in the Klan to be a racist. You just have to refuse to recognize how privileged you are as a white person in America.
I recognize how priviledged I am to be an American.
Not a white man, just an American. There are a number of socio-economic reasons that I have heard for why the African-American population experiences higher rates of poverty. For instance, an alarming number of African-American babies are born out of wedlock, and are raised by a single parent. Also, African-Americans tend to live in more urban environments, where the school systems and local economies are in shambles. (I appologize that I cannot find the actual figures) Poverty tends to be a cycle that extends from one generation to the next. This is a tragedy, to be sure, but I cannot attribute it to everyone’s inherent racism. Also, racism does imply motive. By saying someone is racist, or by accusing them of making racist remarks, you are implying that they treat people differently based on their ethnicity.
No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.
Not all these women are "white"
…. and they’re attractive!

by Highlifeman21 on Apr 6, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Being ignorant is a choice?
I’d say that statement is very much so ironically ignorant.
I guess there is no such thing as legitimately not knowing any better?
by Highlifeman21 on Apr 6, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
This is really nothing compared to...
…the comments that Bronson Arroyo make on stage during the Kids Q&A session at RedsFest 2008. Was anyone else there to see that?
I'm late to the party
This post had over a hundred comments on it, and wouldn’t load on my old laptop when I first saw it.
I think it is an excellent post by Andro, and I think she is accurate, and I really don’t have much to add.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
I will add a few thoughts.
I’m not trying to close the debate or get the last word. But for the most part the discussion has wound down – I doubt very many people will read this comment anyway.
But I got an email from someone with the Reds who assured me my concerns would be passed on to Jeff Brantley, and that the issue would be addressed. What this might mean, I’m not at all sure, but I do feel that my concerns were heard, and that’s about all I can ask for.
One major theme, I felt, was that I was overreacting, and I just want to try to put things in perspective. I wrote a couple emails, and a blog post. This amounted to about 3 pages total, and that’s less than a third of what I write daily for outline, notes, and other class materials. Within a week, I’d guess the thread will be totally dead, and that will be pretty much fine with me. To me, this is not an overreaction. To others, I see that it is.
I also think that some people felt this was a personal accusation against Jeff Brantley, and to some extent the white majority, and even themselves. I definitely did not intend this to be so. I think it is hard to discuss these things without using imprecise, and at times, controversial language, and to the extent my own lack of skill with words indicated a personal attack, I apologize.
Lastly, many of you are no doubt still wondering why the heck this dumb racism post is cluttering your Cincinnati Reds site. Well, it’s off the main page now, and I highly doubt Slyde will let me use the front page until I start covering the 2013 WBC (Westboro Baptist Church!!!!).
IAN! I'm on traain!
by andromache on Apr 6, 2010 8:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
oh no you dont!
i get the last word!
anyway, i just wanted to say that your grace and civility here are nothing short of inspiring. i think you’ve really built a bridge here, honest to god.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 6, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Did someone mention God?
’cuz we could always boost this thread with a bit more religion talk.
KIDDING!!! I’m KIDDING!!
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville


































