MLB experts bat around some ideas on improving the game
by BubbaFan on Mar 8, 2010 9:43 AM EST
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PrintUSA Today begins a series today on how to improve baseball. It will run all week.
They gathered together a panel to discuss it, including a player, a manager, a scout, an agent, an umpire, and Bob Nightengale, who moderated and represented the media, I guess.
The manager chosen was one Dusty Baker.
Today's article is about instant replay, the speed of the game, and inconsistent application of the strike zone.
Umpiring controversies in last season's American League division and championship series have placed new attention on whether the use of replay reviews should be increased:It was Commissioner Bud Selig's worst nightmare.
During last season's playoffs, the nation wasn't transfixed only by the New York Yankees' title run but also by umpiring controversies. Blown calls got plenty of headlines. Three veteran umpire supervisors — Marty Springstead, Richie Garcia and Jim McKean — were fired. There will forever be missed calls, but the committee believes it might be time to fully embrace instant replay to avoid, well, a replay of last year's postseason.
There's a photo slideshow, too. I'd swipe the pic of Dusty, but it's embedded in a Flash animation.
Reds manager Dusty Baker wishes baseball would return to the days when umpires worked in either the National League or American League. Now, he says, he and the players don't know who calls the high strike, who calls the outside pitch or who has a tight strike zone."We just don't know these umpires or the games they call," Baker says. "To me, that's slowed the down the game a whole bunch. The hitters don't know the strike zone, and the catchers don't know how to work an umpire a certain way."
I thought Steve Palermo, umpiring supervisor, had some interesting things to say. He hates the strike box graphic, saying it's inaccurate and makes umpires look terrible. He thinks young umpires are too afraid to overturn calls by senior umpires. And he doesn't like the extra umpires for the post-season. He says they're not used to it, so it actually makes the officiating worse.
The rest of the series:
Today: The on-field product - improving umpiring, pace of play and instant replay.
Tuesday: The schedule - finding a way to avoid overcoats at the World Series.
Wednesday: Acting locally - how baseball should prioritize domestic, rather than global, initiatives.
Thursday: The draft - overhauling the process to create a system that ensures prospects get paid well and small-market teams aren't frozen out.
Friday: Tying up the loose ends - what to do with the World Baseball Classic, how to keep fans and players safer, and making the World Series a true big-time event.
(Maybe this should be a FanShot, but FanShots are too goddamned limited. You can't even post more than one link, or quote from a link. Stupid FanShots.)
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How about all umpires call the same strike zone?
Then we wouldn’t have to worry about the AL/NL distinction. And if the strike box makes the umpires look bad, tough.
The RF/LF umps in the postseason should definitely stay. It doesn’t hurt to have a set of eyes closer to the action for the fair/foul calls. I’m surprised the umps would be against this, because it gets more of them a post-season check.
by ken on Mar 8, 2010 10:00 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
the schedule one should be interresting ...
i’m all for interleague, but it’s time to either go all interleague, all year like the NBA or limit it to a home/away series to your local rival (NY/NY, LA/LA, Chi/Chi, Cin/Cle, etc) …
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
perhaps do the home/away on either side of the all star game
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
Not everyone has a natural interleague rival, though (to play devil's advocate)
Who do the Pennsylvania teams get, since they’re both NL? Who’s anywhere near the Braves? The west gets messy, with most of the California and Texas teams pairing off nicely, but leaving the Padres, Rockies, and Diamondbacks to fight over the Mariners.
It seems to me that for every interesting regional rivalry, they’d have to manufacture two or three totally ridiculous matchups that the fans would tire of quickly.
by the finest muffins on Mar 8, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
The Braves
are usually paired with the Red Sox. Because they used to be the Boston Braves.
And I have to say…the “subway series” has gotten boring. It used to be a big deal, because it was so are. Now they have two Mets-Yankes series a year, and it’s hard to get that excited about it.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
arrghh
That was supposed to be “it was so rare.”
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
"It was so are."
Deep, man.
"Let's get this movie. We already have the underwear."
by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 8, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah those old Boston Braves fans are still lurking
they left Boston in 1952. Time to catch up a little on that.
Interleague play, period, is absurd except for about 6 cities. It’s not fair, it is not balanced and shows no evidence that it has improved the level of play.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
There are still Brooklyn Dodgers and NY Giants fans in NY
There’s even a club for NY (baseball) Giants fans. They meet to watch the Giants together. Most of them aren’t too keen on the Mets or Yanks.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
there are NOT any Boston Braves fans left
I think I can be fairly certain of that.
There weren’t any when the team was in Boston, which was why they left in the first place.
The Braves drew 281,000 fans for the 1952 season. (3,000 average)
The Dodgers are kept alive by lore and legend. The Braves have no such monolith.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
A fact that Turner Field doesn't acknowledge.
They have this huge graphic outside the stadium proclaiming the Braves the “oldest franchise” in baseball, but they only trace the lineage back to Boston.
by the finest muffins on Mar 8, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
Shameless self-promotion
I kinda touched on that last summer.
Also, I will take advantage of any and every opportunity to spread the legend of hole-in-the-cup guy.
A couple of notes upon re-reading the comments – I have never met little lady, and the friend I reference is the peach, who had decided she will root for the REds on opening day since they’re not playing the Braves. Baby steps. :)
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
jch, there is hope
(You showed her the Joey Votto photo, right?)
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
Dude, she's with me
It’s not like she’s attracted to the hunky type.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
well, ya got that goin' fer ya
I just know how I won my wife over way back when was to show her a photo of the (then) fairly hunky J. Bench.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
you showed her the DRH photo
right?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
I'm not a shrimp
More of the Drew Stubbs “tall and skinny” over here. Although every picture of me suggests I have a double chin.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Calling yourself "more of the Drew Stubbs 'tall and skinny'" makes me like you less
Aside from drilling Larry Jones every time he comes up, I’m gonna drill someone else now, just out of principle.
If you’re ever the Reds, the only way Drew Stubbs is going to reach base is when I drill him, although I’m debating taking GREAT pleasure of keeping his overrated ass off the basepaths entirely.
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 13, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
jch or Drew Stubbs?
I’m not rooting against Drew Stubbs, b/c I root for all players when they wear a Reds uniform, I just temper my expectations accordingly. With Stubbs, I expect him to disappoint me. Same thing with Orlando Cabrera. I’ll root for him as a Red, but I sure as shit expect him to disappoint the fuck out of me.
As for jch, I root against him when we play MLB The Show, especially when I throw him cutters, although I have a strict no cutter policy now since that’s the only damn pitch he can hit. Had I been in attendance for jch vs. the Bardzilla, I would have rooted for him hardcore.
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 13, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
I did not realize that you were talking about video games
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Real life, video games, my dreams
Chris Dickerson >> Drew Stubbs
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 14, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
In the immortal words of Meat Loaf
Two out of three ain’t bad!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
He also supposedly said he would do anything for love, but he won't do that
I’ll take it to the next level, I will do anything for love, including that.
My bromance for Chris Dickerson knows no bounds
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 14, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
you could say it with flowers, you cheap ass!
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Flowers die
My love, however, does not
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 14, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
(sigh)
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
"you say you love chocolate cake."
“You don’t. You want to eat it.”
-Dallas Willard
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
something to be said for that
something.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Wait a sec
Are you saying I look like Jo-eh?
Am I sexy Canuck?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
If a Canuck can be sexy
… anyhow, I ain’t saying anything.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I can say as a completely hetero male
Joey Votto is one sexy bitch.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Sexy Canuck
Oxymoron for guys?
Now sexy female canuck, I support that.. Apparently this broad is a Canadian skier…
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 13, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
We are not allowed to post Cheesecake photos any more...
Slyde saide…so
although he said nothing about pedophiles
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
fifteen frickin' cents!
Hell, that thing costs about 35 cents now, doesn’t it?
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I'm not so sure I want her rooting for the Reds
Every now and then we’ll fall apart
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 8, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
But don't we need her now tonight?
Don’t we need her more than ever?
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
I think there's a Bonnie Tyler background singer somewhere in this.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
See, this is where I make fun of the girl you brought
Oh, right. My bad.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Sounds like we both are attempting to change team loyalties of certain people...
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Nice write-up!
I liked Turner Field. I sat in the $1 seats, which was just as well because it was raining for at least half the game. (bonus entertainment: a spectacular lightning show!) And the fan atmosphere was electric. I may or may not have participated in the tomahawk-chopping, despite years of fearing of it as a cult behavior.
by the finest muffins on Mar 8, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
do they do anything to protect the fans during lightning storms?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
that's why they have foul poles, silly.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
I'm not sure what they could do, really.
I didn’t stay the whole game, so I can’t be sure. Short of a scoreboard reminder to strap on your rubber-soled shoes, I think it’s kind of out of the Braves’ hands.
I also just remembered another detail of that game: it was Western night, so all the players’ photos were Photoshopped to include cowboy hats and sheriff’s badges and shotguns and such. They were playing the Cardinals, and Jason LaRue looked right at home.
by the finest muffins on Mar 8, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
during football games
I’ve heard them telling the fans to go downstairs and shelter in the concourse.
Some parks don’t have a lot of room in the concourse, though.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I could look this up but
Was it the Braves or the Red Stockings (Sox?)
One of them was also known as the Pilgrims, Beaneaters, Puritans and as well there were the Worchester Worchesters.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
and then there's the fact
that two NL teams have nobody to play in the American League. That’s kind of awkward.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
I'm for dumping Interleague Play
but not because I’m a traditionalist (though I tend to be on stuff like this). I just don’t think it’s all that interesting. With free agency and lots of baseball on TV and the internet, it’s really not all that exciting to see teams from the other league anymore. Most of the time it’s a collection of players I’ve already seen a dozen times anyway.
And then it’s annoying that teams are competing for a title with varying degrees of difficulty on their schedule, but that happens for the wild card anyway.
If there is a problem to be fixed, my solution is to expand 2 more teams, go with eight 4-team divisions in 2 leagues and then with an unbalanced schedule but no wild card. And then give the Yanks or Sox the trophy like ESPN wants.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
IL play isn't a novelty anymore,
but there are enough compelling geographic rivalries that it should be kept around in some form, imo. And I still like it that we play a team like the Yankees or Mariners once in a blue moon even if some of their players used to play with more direct Reds’ rivals. I’m looking forward to the Reds first series in Baltimore, whenever that happens.
I agree with this.
I think there are flaws with interleague play, but it’s fun to see new teams every once in a while. I see no problem with cutting back, though. What are there, 5 series each year right now? Why not just 2?
by the finest muffins on Mar 8, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
if you cut back
then you make it even worse. Say a team loses a playoff spot because they played the Yankees while the division winner played the Royals. That’s annoys me most about interleague play. You’ve got teams in the same damn division playing unbalanced schedules with each other.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I don't agree with the slavish devotion to scheduling equity
It’s a fruitless pursuit, in my mind. Teams change throughout the course of the season, some series you get to skip the team’s ace, etc.
If a team’s argument is that it missed the playoffs because it had to face NYY for one series instead of KCR, I’m not going to shed many tears for said team.
by ken on Mar 8, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
well, your a poo-poo head
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
by Slyde on Mar 8, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
definitely a good argument
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
The Yankees
don’t mind playing the Mets for two series a year when the Mets suck. When they’re good, they gripe about how unfair it is.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Slyde for Commissior
Spot on: If there is a problem to be fixed, my solution is to expand 2 more teams, go with eight 4-team divisions in 2 leagues and then with an unbalanced schedule but no wild card. And then give the Yanks or Sox the trophy like ESPN wants.
Inter-league play is so unnecessary…that’s what the World Series is for.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
I like the realignment a lot
But I think the wild card spots are necessary. I’d do it the same way the NFL does, with 4 division winners in the top 4 seeds and the two wildcards playing another series, even if it’s 3 games.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 8, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
nope
too many playoff teams. I like that it is hard to get into the playoffs in baseball. Take away the wild card and then suddenly only one of the Yanks or Sox is in the playoffs each year.
And a 3-game series after playing 162 is a turrible idea.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Not if it's the first playoff series
Take a day off after the season, play the 3 game series on Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday (if necessary) and start the playoffs on Saturday. The division winner gets the entire series at home.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
i still dont like it
like Slyde said, you play 162 games in the season to determine which teams are better, and then a 95-win division winner has to take 2 of 3 games against an 86-win wild card? doesnt seem fair at all. personally, i think they need to lengthen playoff series. 5 game series are waaaay too short, and even 7 game series have a lot of volatility. i want the playoffs to be at least 9 game series.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 8, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
That's not the situation I'm thinking of
I’m thinking of the 95-win wild card team facing off against the 86-win division winner. That 86-win team absolutely needs to prove that they’re better than a 95-win team to have a shot at a title. If you don’t have the wild card, then you open up discussion for division realignment, and there will never be a MLB where the Yankees and Red Sox both can’t get into the playoffs. As much as that sucks I don’t agree with it, that’s the way it is.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 8, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
granted
but the problem is that the 86-win division winner cant prove anything in a 3 game series. matter of fact, the whole idea of a playoff is completely backwards for a 162 game season. nobody can really prove anything in such short series. or at least, they can prove far less than they did in the regular season. which is why i want to see fewer playoff participants, not more. like college football, the regular season is the playoff.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 8, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
when you have divisions, you'll always have this problem
I’m not concerned about an 86-win team beating a 95-win team, but I think adding more teams to the playoffs just so they can play a 3-game series doesn’t make sense. You’re just making the playoffs even more of a crapshoot and increasing the chances that a non-deserving team wins it. I don’t see any reason why there needs to be more playoff teams. The NBA playoffs are a joke, and you can’t compare football and baseball because a 16-game schedule is totally different than 162 games.
What I want is all teams that are competing for a specific spot in the playoffs to be as much on common ground as possible (it’ll never be perfect because teams down play themselves). If the Reds are competing against the Brewers or Braves for a playoff spot, they should have the same schedule. Going to 4 divisions with no wild card means they are only competing against 3 other teams for a playoff spot. They only have to have the same schedule as those 3 teams. The rest doesn’t matter.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
the way around all this is simple
go back to the days when all the teams were in one league and there was one 1 winner per league and those two teams played for the W.S.
You really eliminate all confusion and argument about whether teams are deserving.
Now if you want to have more exciting playoffs than that, then you have to take the medicine that comes with it.
One way works.
So does the other.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
Sorry John but although thatsounds good, the loss of revenues when a team "falls out" of contention in July makes a 2 league solution prohibitive
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
well we have a second-place tournament
let Walter Matthau be the coach on one team and Jack Lemmonade on the other side.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
I can't believe I am entertaining your idea.
but, two leagues and take the 4 best records from each league has some merit. With no divisions, everyone plays everyone (as equally as possible) and the best four play in October.
Just entertaining, not saying it is a good idea, but just a separate thought.
Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.
yeah bk a 3 game playoff series is awful
i’m probably plagiarizing because it is late and I don’t feel like reading down the page before commenting, but that really is too small of a sample size for any value.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
The wild card isn't going anywhere
If you add two more divisions, the wild card round becomes necessary. If one happens, the other happens too.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 9, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Wrong
4 teams = 4 teams. The wild card is unnecessary if you go to 4 divisions.
quit being wrong!
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
BK is right
The wild card is still necessary.
Only allowing division winners into the playoffs is ridiculous. That allows teams to make the playoffs even though they have had worse seasons than a team that misses the playoffs.
such is life
that can still happen otherwise. How many teams had better records than the ‘06 Cardinals but didn’t make the playoffs.
The only way to avoid that is one division and take the top 4 teams.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Which I would be completely fine with
Also, Division winners shouldn’t automatically get to be higher seeds.
Or 4 divisions
And take the top team in each division
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 9, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
no
second place in one of the divisions could be the 2nd best team in the league but not go to the playoffs.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I'm actually fine with that though
As long as every team in the same division faces the same expected competition. It would suck if the Reds lost their division because they played all of the hard teams while the Cardinals played a cake schedule. That’s worse to me than if the Mets make the playoffs with 5 fewer wins than the Reds because they are in a different division.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
New divisions each year
Based on the prior year record
Put teams into A, B, C, & D groups, and then put one of each team into a division.
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 9, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Free agency make that idea bad
and therefore I hate it. hate hate hate!!!
But thanks for the suggestion! :)
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
That's why you have to allow MLB to trade draft picks
Turn this into the NFL, duh
by Highlifeman21 on Mar 9, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Seven.
In 2006 seven teams in MLB had a better record than the Cardinals but did not make the playoffs.
But the Cardinals won the World Series and those seven teams did not. And that proves that those teams didn’t want it as bad as the Cardinals.
"Let's get this movie. We already have the underwear."
by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Or it proves that the Cards sold their souls...
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I'm not saying it's necessary
I’m saying MLB won’t get rid of it as long as the Yankees and Red Sox are in the same division
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 9, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Either dump interleague play, or get rid of the “rival” series and just rottate which divison you play in interleague.
And while they are at it, move an NL team to the AL, and have each league with 3 divisions of 5 teams.
Some say a comet will fall from the sky. Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still. Followed by millions of dumbfounded dips**ts.
you can't do both of these things
two 15-team leagues requires interleague play.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
you and your numbers...
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
As much as I enjoy making the trek up to Cleveland to see the Reds play
I am against inter-league play. It is ridiculous that teams only play out of division intra-league foes twice. Get rid of inter-league play, cut one series against each intra-divisional team, and play all non division intra-league teams twice. Like the good old days.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
Padres or the Pervs
There seems to be an illusion that fans get weary of seeing the same teams over and over again. This comes from what source? The vast bulk of people who go to ballgames only attend 2 or 3 times a year. They don’t care who’s in town that day.
Getting a rare treat to see the Indians? The reason attendance spikes is because a few hundred people decide to drive in from Columbus and spend the weekend.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
Not sure we disagree
You’ll get more fannies in the seats (and eyeballs on the tube) if you can get in a couple of series against Cleveland rather than a team like San Diego. I’m not saying fans are weary of seeing teams like the Padres. I’m saying they’d rather see a geographic rival.
It just seems silly to me to prevent a CIN-CLE series because they’re in different leagues. League distinction went away a long time ago.
I can agree that they might like to see a geographic rival
that might inherently work for Chicago/NY/LA and maybe to some extent Ohio. It depends on which fringe of the Reds fan base you live. In my part of Indiana, as a youth, I saw Cleveland as an AL team. Nothing more. Still don’t.
Our rivals were the dreaded Cardinals, I think.
But as for attendance, if it rains that weekend or it’s cold, don’t matter if the Martian Mayflies are making their only trip to town this century.
So I don’t disagree on this at all. Just that I think the discussion about “rivalries” was conjured up by three Yuppies around a coffeemaker.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Dusty has a point for once.
The strike zone is different in each league according to an umpire I talked to a couple of years ago. That should absolutely be fixed.
A Pete Rose by any other name would still smell of cheap hookers and pinetar.
I missed the comment about the fanshot
I’ll say, BF, that this definitely doesn’t need to be a fanshot. This is precisely what should be done for a fanpost of this nature. Now if you had just come in and posted a link that said, “Read this!” then there’d be trouble!
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
One way to 'fix baseball is to allow:
1. Allow corked bats
2. Allow spitballs
3.Legalize sharpened cleats and high hard fastballs
4. Allow foreign substances on pitched balls
5. Allow high as you want pine tar on the bat
6. Legalize HGH etc.
7. Sell really cheap, high alcohol content beer by the buckets.
8. Burn down the Boat and put in a water park behind the center field fence, girls get a ticket discount when attending the game in swim suits.
9. Scantily clad female ushers. (this idea was stolen from the Japanese major leagues)
10. Salary caps and equal revenue sharing.
These ten steps would do more to renew interest in baseball than al the realignment shit you can come up with.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
by Madville on Mar 8, 2010 6:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
1,2,3,6,7,9 yes ... the others, maybe
I think the dive into the swimming pool from atop the flagpole would be all right.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
I was thinking you were actually Tony LaRussa
till you hit 10. If you had said allow 35 man rosters so he could use a half dozen or so more pitchers per game and get in about as many more double switches – then I would have been convinced.
They've posted Part II of the series
Panel Part II: MLB playoffs need fewer days off; shorter spring
The postseason didn’t end last year until Nov. 4, and unless MLB changes its format, Game 7 of the 2010 World Series is scheduled Nov. 4. Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker shudders at what the weather could be like in Minnesota in November with the Twins’ new open-air stadium.Hunter and Hawkins say three and four weeks of spring training, rather than the current six, is enough time for hitters and pitchers, respectively, to prepare.
But revenue is a hurdle. Says Boras: “The trouble is that spring training is now about a $15 (million) to $20 million event for teams. They’re all making money.”
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I wonder how much $$ the Reds will be making in ST
Attendance was something like 4,000 at their first ever game at Goodyear. Capacity is over 10,000.
Ed Smith
had only a 7,500 capacity, and was usually half-empty except when the Yankees and Reds Sox were visiting. I imagine the Reds could make good money on 4,000 attendance.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
ST turns a profit
Attendance is a blip in the bucket. A crowd of around 3,000 would easily pay the expenses.
This is all chamber of commerce driven stuff, arrangements the ball club makes with the teams, the leagues, all sorts of people. Sponsors matter in these communities where nobody goes in the middle of August.
As for how long ST lasts, players have been bellyaching about that for at least 20 years. Shortening the ST schedule, however, doesn’t seem to play out IMHO on the other end.
The way around the late finish is to crowd the schedule, which means cutting games or adding doubleheaders. Your call on that one. I could see day-night DHs … say, three per team, to cut about a week off the season.
The other problem with freezing your butt off at the WS is the game goes on until midnight. Day games, maybe, would help.
I just knew that I would now be having train sex with a very odd broad in no time. I didn’t expect the bitch to shoot me though. (Pops Daniels)
They won't be adding doubleheaders back anytime soon
They make more money the other way. Same with the WS day games. Not gonna happen due to the ratings (and revenue) losses that would occur.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
they could have doubleheaders
Where tickets are sold separately for each game.
Basically, what they often do now when a rainout has to be made up.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Too many people remember the old days
They’re waiting for them to die off.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
My mother is 99 and refuses to die until:
1. Double headers are reinstated
2. The Designated hitter is abolished
3. Interleague play is abolished
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
I'm not trying to kill of Moms but..
..you could take her to a few Bats games in order to meet these conditions, right?
"Let's get this movie. We already have the underwear."
by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 12, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
No pun intended but Mom is a diehard
Red’s fan.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
day-night DHs can return the same income
Two admissions, same day. I think the players don’t like it, which is why they don’t do it. Naturally, it mucks up the pitching rotation and later in the season, I can see that as a problem. But nothing wrong with having some of them in April. They play day games a lot anyhow in April.
Yeah, I (sigh) admit it on the W.S.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Every game that we went to last ST was almost completely full, I was glad that i'd purchased tickets in advance..
When we went to Tampa to see the Yankees they were sold out and we had fortunately purchased tickets in advance there too.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
I saw Cincinnati and Houston play last year in Sarasota
it wasn’t empty but it wasn’t full either.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
do you want pictures to go with it?
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
No worse than
“This one time, I went to Detroit..”
Oh, wait she’s not around for me to harass, is she..
Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.
At BK's request, ps I am no Bubba with a camera.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
You need to zoom in a little more on the batters
Like this!
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Mar 9, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
the first comment on this article
Is from someone who wants to unify baseball. He thinks one league with a DH and one without is fundamentally unfair.
He’s got some pretty unusual ideas on how to fix it.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
well the easiest way to fix it is ...
… anyway, I read through a couple of the suggested “fixes” and I think the great notion is to complicate things. Baseball players do NOT like things to be complicated.
If the DH works, then it works. If not, scrap it. It hasn’t hurt the sport and almost all leagues use it now. How does the integrity of the sport thrive when it’s used as it has been? Duh, let’s … um … grow up and simplify things.
Add the DH and move on to important things.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I don't think your idea will go over very well here
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
has anybody ever asked the players?
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
here's my other rail about this
The folks who go around slapping their hips about the “traditions” of baseball.
The season opened one year in Japan with a series that included NOT the Reds but the Red SOX. It opened a week early and then the teams returned for spring training.
Wha?
They have lights at Wrigley now.
They let “colored” people participate.
What OTHER traditions do we find so damned romantic that we can’t actually improve the game by making it function on a duplicate set of rules?
What about the DH is so disarming to NL teams? And the notion that it reduces managerial strategy by eliminating the bunt … bogus, very bery vogus. Who fickin’ cares?
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
The Cubs waiting 'til next year
A tradition that must be preserved!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Mar 9, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
yes!
and one I cherish.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Probably one of the best baseball traditions.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
and of course
the newest tradition at the top of the 8th inning is to all stand up and do the YMCA song.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
a tradition unlike any other?
"Red Reporter - An elitist clique full of like-minded douchebags." - BK
i am surprised i am the first to rec this.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
The 2 ways I do it are mac specific
at least I think so. I can hold down the control key and get a menu that includes “inspect the element” which is a paragraph or so of garbage with the pic url in it. That wasn’t there for this pic, but is for other Flash illustrations.
There is also a Safari browser menu that lets you choose “activity” which shows all the bits and pieces of the whole page with the bits and pieces of the webpage and in that it lists the pic urls.
Is any of that translatable to your situation?
Tangent: do people realize that there are Flash type cookies or that there is a control panel to give others permission to use the camera on your computer?
I'm pretty sure
There’s no camera on my computer.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
some things we CAN fix
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I have a Canon EOS Rebel!
Tis black though. And it’s a different series too.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
I consider it a feature
not a bug.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I sometimes can
Sometimes, using “view page source” reveals where the images are stashed.
I suppose there might be Firefox extensions to help. I should check it out.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I was gonna suggest this
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Part III is up now
Panel Part III: Efforts to develop black talent in USA insufficient
Chicago Cubs special assistant Gary Hughes, who signed Pro Football Hall of Famer John Elway for the New York Yankees and high school basketball All-American Delino DeShields for the Montreal Expos, says it’s heartbreaking watching America’s athletes shun baseball. It’s rare, Hughes says, when he sees more than one African American playing in a college game.
“A lot of people don’t understand,” Hunter says, “that the percentage of white players in the game is down, too.”
…The urban academies were designed to help attract inner-city athletes, but the major problem is transportation.
It’s common for high schools to arrange transportation for their kids to attend practices and games, but how do kids get to the academies if no one is home to drive them?
“I’ve seen it operate in (Compton),” Boras says. “It does not work. These inner-city kids are out because they can’t afford to travel there.”
(Note to Mr. USA Today photographer: please, we don’t need to see closeups of Scott Boras’ bald spot!)
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
urban kids
are not playing baseball for a lot of reasons, the least of which is that it isn’t “their sport.”
It’s about facilities. There aren’t any ball fields in the urban areas now, nobody to maintain them, and there’s no equipment, no coaching, no umpires, mostly no leadership.
But this is still only part of the myth. Not ALL minority kids live in urban areas.
We keep dredging up the same old stereotypes and wonder why we can’t find reasons to make the dots connect.
This is less about race than it is about leadership.
Transportation? Fer crap’s sake, walk down to the park and start a game.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Bleh
Video games need to be limited. Kids need an activity of some kind. It could be anything- a sport, an instrument, karate, whatever- but they need something to occupy some time.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
You missed the money quote
From Torii Hunter:
“People see dark faces out there, and the perception is that they’re African American,” Los Angeles Angels center fielder Torii Hunter says. "They’re not us. They’re impostors.
“Even people I know come up and say, ‘Hey, what color is Vladimir Guerrero? Is he a black player?’ I say, ‘Come on, he’s Dominican. He’s not black.’ "
It’s like he’s reading my mind!
all i read was your boxed in quote
Every Dominican person i’ve known would take great offense to being called “african american” or “black”
i don't know, but i'm not surprised by the quote
there is some real tension between those two races.
He might not mean it in the strict sense
He’s not saying the latin players themselves are pretending (to be black), but that the league encourages teams to develop latin players because it will fool the fans. However he meant it, it’s offensive.
apparently, Hunter took a lot of heat
Angels’ Torii Hunter defends choice words that drew fire
Los Angeles center fielder Torii Hunter was at first startled, and then angered Wednesday when comments he made about diversity in baseball were construed as potentially racist.
Hunter, who found himself in a firestorm of online criticism about comments he made in a USA TODAY roundtable discussion, says he meant no harm or disrespect to Latin American players.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Baseball is a relatively expensive sport, sure. But its also a warm-weather sport.
There’s a reason why most of the best players come from FL, CA, TX. They can play more of the year when they’re kids and they can get recruited by college programs easier. And more suburban kids have more access to parks and richer kids have more access to travel teams. Both raise kids’ profiles and make it easier for them to be drafted.
Its only slightly related, but I think its worth looking at Soccer player Clint Dempsey’s background. He was from a trailer park in Nacogdoches, TX. Which seperates him from, oh, everyone else on the USMNT. He got onto a travel team, but the other kids’ parents had to pay his travel expenses because he couldn’t afford them (his parents were focusing their $$ towards his older sister who was a ranked tennis player). Basically, the only reason why he ever got a start was pure charity and luck.
So yeah, kids need access and baseball is more expensive than basketball or football. What makes baseball different, I think, is how many people get drafted/play professionally. I think it would be really interesting to see a breakdown of how many Black/White/Hispanic folks get drafted, and how many of each make it to the big leagues. Its a study that has the potential to be really really uncomfortable, but kind of interesting.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Mar 10, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
The article touches on the dwindling scholarships for baseball
That could be an issue, but baseball has never been the scholarship powerhouse that football is. And many (most?) baseball players don’t get full rides, like in basketball. So I’m not sure if the scholarship numbers explain anything.
there is a lot going on here with that point
Baseball is traditionally (look above for some absurdities in that area) a place where kids are signed or recruited aside from college ball.
But the structure of college baseball needs to be addressed. There are some schools that are members of the “inside club” — fed and nurtured by MLB. It’s hard to get a scholarship at Miami Fla or Ariz. State, for instance. Playing somewhere else doesn’t get you a full ride but requires just as much of your time. Northern schools play 40 or 50 games, and 30 of them are before April on the road in someplace called Logan’s Fork, Tennessee.
I could touch on the death of legion ball as another coffin nail. But I can say that high school baseball, esp. in Indiana, is NOT dead and is, in fact, thriving — in most places.
But it is not thriving in Gary. Not even close. The reason is that the people who run athletics in Gary do not like baseball. They’re basketball flunkies. It’s all they think about for sports. They created their own stereotypes. Kids don’t grow up there wanting to be Lloyd McClendon (look him up at your whim) … they want to be LeBron James (no need to look him up).
I suppose I got started on this, thinking that the thrust was that baseball didn’t actively recruit blacks for (fill in your own racial reason) … but the truth of it is, as in most professions, if the talent is there, business will seek it out. First, we need to ask why the talent isn’t there.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
even if you don't make it to the big leagues
you can make a decent living playing baseball. A minor leaguer works only half the year, and pulls down enough money to support a family. Basketball and football are faster tracks to the big bucks…if you make it. If you don’t make it, you’re pretty much out of luck.
But I wonder how much of it simply that baseball is no longer a good match for our culture. We want fast paced, constant action, without having to learn too much to follow it. Baseball just doesn’t fit that mold.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
something to be said for that
Parlor games are out because of that.
I can’t say if a minor leaguer can make enough. I know the indy-league guys here in the Gary area don’t make much dough unless they’re veterans. Even then, most of them have private clinics or other businesses they attend off-season. If I was a single guy and could find a host family, I’d play indy ball in a heartbeat.
Like everything, sports and cultures go up and down. Baseball did some of this on its own, having the WS on at 1 in the morning, about 4 hours after most kids who like the game had to go to bed. Another generation of players lost to the Chevy commercial.
The new ballparks are nice but the prices are too high. Another generation of families who have to choose whether to believe that a Reds game is “affordable family fun” or if it’s just cheaper to buy the kids a video game.
Baseball requires a field, some “bases” and a couple of balls and something resembling a lawnmower. My generation: we managed despite all that. A burlap sack full of walnut shells was a decent “base”, the high grass part of right field was an “out” … and off we went.
Now, the damned field is probably fenced in with padlocks on it, sign saying “keep out” because … well, the school board attorney said they might get sued if somebody played a game there without proper supervision.
A couple of summers of that shit and … new adventures somewhere else.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Because they want to play football and basketball
Baseball is a solid #3 for urban kids.
Some say a comet will fall from the sky. Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still. Followed by millions of dumbfounded dips**ts.
Part IV
Panel Part IV: A less-costly process discussed for draft
USA TODAY’s eight-person committee emerged from a four-hour roundtable discussion with imaginative solutions.
•The elite players in the draft, a consensus top 40 chosen by scouting directors, would be granted free agency, just like the international players. There would be no worldwide draft, but the disparity between American and foreign players would be greatly narrowed.
•The rest of the players would go into two eight-round drafts — one for collegiate players, one for high school players. The worst team would get the No. 1 collegian and the No. 1 high schooler. Players drafted would not receive a signing bonus but a three-year contract for $30,000 a season. If clubs want to retain the player after three years, they would pay $150,000 for the following season and $250,000 apiece for the next two years.
•The players who aren’t drafted can either go to college or enter a developmental league for 60 days, giving every team another chance to sign them. If not selected, the players would get the message that pro baseball might not be in their immediate future.
“This system allows us to make less mistakes,” Boras says. “It allows players the opportunity to get a qualified amount of money to play baseball and allows the elite players to be separated and treated the same as the international player.”
“It’s a whole different level of thinking,” Milwaukee Brewers pitcher LaTroy Hawkins says. “I love it.”
The idea is to ensure that only the truly elite players are drafted. There would be college scholarships awaiting those who don’t make it. And fewer kids would be deceived about their chances of being a big-leaguer.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
allows us to make less ha ha ha mistakes, he says ha ha ha ha.
Bad baseball teams always made the most mistakes.
The idea is that only the truly elite get drafted? I thought the notion earlier in this conversation was on how to increase the numbers. Sorry … but ha ha ha ha ha
Tell me again, what is a foreign player?
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
It would really, really stink to be prospect no. 41 in this system
But I can see why the teams would go for it. Small market teams get cost certainty for the Brad Boxbergers, while the large teams can stock up on the Mike Leakes.
but with 40 players
it seems that SOME will fall to the smaller teams. You can’t just spend 80 million on the top 20 players as one team in one year…can you?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Mar 11, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
well, yeah
even the Nationals pick up a scrap or two. What is different about this proposal is that the lawyers have more control over the money.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I guess my analysis
… we have folks who say the system is broken and the ones who are generally responsible for that are the ones who are being asked to find solutions.
What is WRONG with this picture? Asking Scott Boras to offer solutions to the problems of baseball is absurd. The only solutions he offers are certainly NOT designed to address the the problems most fans have — the rich teams get all the talent.
Any other “suggestions” this panel has about increasing numbers, adding scholarships, night games in the middle of November … who’s doing the griping?
Fans are doing the griping. So I have an idea. Let’s not ask the fans. Let’s ask Dusty Baker and Scott Boras.
Therein lies the truth to life.
Shit rolls downhill.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I'm sure some will
But the really elite prospects will almost always go to one of the big boys. Though you could argue that the draft is sorta rigged this way already, in that draftees can simply hold out for money that only the purportedly rich teams an afford.
Then again, we just spent $30M on a Cuban pitcher. So who knows how it would shake out.
Part V
Panel Part V: MLB must stay ahead of drug curve
This part covers four issues that weren’t covered in the other parts: PEDs, the WBC, the World Series, and fan safety.
I found the WS part most interesting:
The World Series is baseball’s showcase, but it’s like a mid-summer Pittsburgh Pirates-Houston Astros game compared to Super Bowl week.
In the World Series, if you’re not playing, you’re not attending. The players on other teams don’t show up, and rarely do other team officials and fans in general.
“The World Series is a chance situation for fans,” Boras says. “How do you plan for it? How do you adjust your vacations?”
The World Series could return to a best-of-nine series, like the old days. The first two games would be at a neutral site, which would include an awards ceremony, and then return to the traditional best-of-seven series. Or, eliminating the need for the All-Star Game to determine home-field advantage, play only the first game at a neutral site. Then go with a 2-2-1-1 format the rest of the series.
“Whatever we do, we need to modernize our game,” Boras says. “We need to create a World Series weekend.”
I never really thought about it, but it’s true: for the Super Bowl, everyone wants to be there, including the fans and players of teams that aren’t playing. The World Series is more of a two-team party.
Not sure it’s something scheduling could fix, though. I think it’s just a fundamental difference between the sports. Football has more national interest, because each team has only one game a week. Each game is a bigger deal, and that carries over the Super Bowl.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
not much really that can change this
I am not so sure that baseball lost out as much as the NFL got lucky and made enormous gains. The two weeks to prep for the Super Bowl is an awesome advantage for promotions, not counting it’s at the most completely perfect time of the year … after Christmas, when it’s colder’n hell, nothing else going on and noplace to go. Stuck inside in the middle of winter. A completely captured audience, one that dearly loves football (age demographics the point, and the absolutely PERFECT people for marketing purposes.)
Baseball can’t do anything to beat that hand. The neutral site thing sounds interesting but I think I’d pass on it. Everyone would be disappointed.
All baseball can do is consider what it’s lost … and playing the games at 1 in the morning continues to erode its fan base and its fan base future.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
the drug thing
It’s important that the drug thing be put in perspective. But I don’t think that continuing to apologize for it will be any easier for the fans to swallow. Baseball, of all sports, hangs its very existence on its achievements by the players. Statistics is the sport’s blood line and it is the only ONLY ONLY way we have of identifying with success or failure.
Baseball will NEVER recover from the steroids era. Other sports don’t have it? Sure, they do, but unless he’s a running back, his statistics don’t really count much. It’s about his team.
Baseball measures its failure and success in individual terms, not in team terms.
Just for Boras to blunder through his “who’s to blame” posit on this … pish-tosh! A lot of fans have already turned the backs on the game and they don’t recognize the voice who’s doing all the apologizing. They aren’t turning around to see who said it, either.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Baseball will never recover from the steroids era?
Just like baseball will never recover from gambling and baseball will never recover from the 1994 strike?
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 12, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball has the steriod era to thank for a significant increase in interest and attendance by casual fans.
1. Allow corked bats (although they really don’t work that well)
2. Allow spitballs…throw ’em high and hard
3.Legalize sharpened cleats and high hard fastballs
4. Allow foreign substances on pitched balls
5. Allow high as you want pine tar on the bat
6. Legalize HGH
etc.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
well, the game will endure
but it will always have an (*) next to it. I suppose if we can abide that, then I retract my comment.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
youre right
the steroids era should have an asterisk. all those juice cheats unfairly changed the landscape of the record books.
come to think of it, the 60’s should too. all those elevated mounds really inflated pitchers’ stats.
and the first half of the 20th century too, since they didnt let any minorities play. that really colors their stats too.
and the 19th century should have one too, since the leagues werent set and there was so much volatility in the rules.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 12, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
as we hobble along on this
actually not disagreeing on much other than rules changes not being quite the same thing as personal integrity, minorities not playing just leaves out their stats, doesn’t artificially enhance others.
Unless you assume that the white players would not have done as well in competition against the blacks, arguable but clearly not provable.
And almost none of the 19th century rules are considered measuring sticks, so that’s a moot discussion.
All I know is that I was deeply disappointed to learn that Barry B*nds didn’t actually earn his 83 home runs, or was it 91 that season?
But if you can readily defend steroids use, I will be glad to step aside and say no more on the topic. Otherwise, this is apples and oranges.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
I'm not going to get into this
but I think apples to oranges is the point. All records have some “invalidity” to them of varying degrees. If we’re going to start crossing certain questionable ones off the list, we might use up our whole marker.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
my point
… on records is generally how we identify with players. Almost none of us knows Barry Larkin personally, but we like him because of how he played, how he conducted himself on the field, but … we also have a yardstick to compare him with … other players, relative to their statistics.
So while stats matter, in my argument, it’s more about integrity than statistics. If you play, you “earn” statistics.
Ruth’s 60 is no less or more important to me than B*nds’ 73, but Ruth generally carries a better persona because I assume he did it “honestly.”
Debate that all you want.
Meanwhile, there is an entire era of players who will trot out their numbers and the only question will be, “did he use steroids?”
If the reply is, “yes, but his stats still count,” then fans have caved in and said it doesn’t matter. If they can live with that and still pay premium ticket prices, boffo! Go buy those tickets.
And yes, any record can be debated for fairness. Ruth hit into a short porch. Ralph Kiner played in Forbes Field. Stats favored Ruth.
“Most wind-aided home runs, NL, career: Banks, Ernie, Chi, approx. 312.”
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
as i said earlier
all stats have some caveats attached. Bonds used steroids. Pete Rose used amphetamines. Walter Johnson never had to pitch to a black player, many of whom were better than some of the schnooks he often struck out. Babe Ruth never had to face Satchel Paige. and so on.
i understand that Bonds’ steroid use has a culpability attached to it that Babe’s inability to face the best competition doesnt. it’s not Babe’s fault that dark-skinned folks werent allowed to play his game. but they both have numbers, and both those numbers were affected by externalities. if we start qualifying one player’s stats to reflect all the circumstances that affected them, then we have to do it to all of them. nobody wants to do that. it’s meaningless. and stupid.
look, we all know Babe never faced Satch. we all know Koufax pitched from a high mound. we all know Bonds took steroids. isnt that enough? when we tell our children and grandchildren the stories of our heroes, we will no doubt never forget to mention the circumstances surrounding all their feats. let the numbers just be numbers. they can never tell the whole story anyway, right?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 13, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"let the numbers just be numbers. they can never tell the whole story anyway, right?"
Somebody’s gonna get a paddlin’ from Uncle Slyde.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
every 1st and 3rd Thursday
we have a standing date
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 13, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
the whole story isn't necessary
All I insist is that the player’s integrity is at stake.
I want to believe that the men who played, who I consider the best at their craft, did it the honorable way. I have a list of a few
Musial, Klu, Robby, Clemente, Mays … a few others.
Did they enhance their game? I doubt it. I can live with that belief.
Their integrity is intact. Their records stand on their own merits.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
it depends on your definition of "enhance"
many old-timers, like Hank Aaron and Pete Rose, took greenies. is that unethical enhancement? what about drinking coffee before gametime? i think Babe Ruth did that all the time. is caffeine unethical enhancement? what about all the pitchers, great or otherwise, who used the spitball or a file or sandpaper? what about using pine tar on your bat? that is a foreign substance applied to try and gain a competitive advantage. it’s a slippery slope.
as long as there has been competition on the field, there has been competition off the field to try to gain an edge. where do we draw the line between “the spirit of competition” and “unethical enhancement”? im pretty sure it would be close to impossible for us to come to an agreement as where that line is. and furthermore, im pretty sure if a line were decided upon, it would exclude far more of our heroes than any of us would be comfortable with.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 13, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I still think our fruits are mixed
Coffee isn’t exactly the same thing.
You seem to be defending the steroid users by introducing anecdotal evidence that proves that everybody who matters has been a cheater. Well, if they all did, then they all did.
Apply your own standards to any ethics you want. Old General once said that if you find yourself in a fair fight, you needed to re-evaluate your strategy.
I get it on that level. I suppose today’s heroes will be looked on differently in another 50 years. I know that some of my own heroes were drunks, smoked cigarettes and drove too fast.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
im not defending steroids users
just pointing out that if you think using steroids is across the line (i do), and their stats should be amended because of it (i dont), then we need to define exactly where that line is. and i think if that line were defined, a lot of people would be very uncomfortable with the consequences.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 14, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
We can’t define who did actually play the game on sheer physical ability only, not discounting that some guys stayed in shape all winter and some didn’t. Some are taller, faster, naturally better equipped to play.
But I do assert that when the reckoning of time comes and we continue to debate the “great” players, we will never ask if Cobb, Gehrig, Ruth, DiMaggio, Feller … ever used “steroids.” Yeah, pills of some sort, maybe.
The guys from the 1980s will always be associated with that question. All of them, and maybe that isn’t fair. I don’t throw out their records, but I hold them a little less valuable.
Of course, teams that played on Astroturf are another matter, I suppose.
I am not so much about the purity of the game, its traditions, but guys like Brady Anderson truly pissed me off.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
for me
It’s a matter of fairness.
Rule changes aren’t the same, because they apply to everyone who is playing at the time.
With PEDs, the players who didn’t cheat were at a disadvantage. And yes, I do believe that there are some who didn’t cheat.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
How about some more post-season tournaments?
I think Brendanukkah (or one of the other Premier League fiends) was telling about how they keep interest for all of the down-table teams. Sure, there’s a battle at the top for the championship, but there are also a number of other “Cups” to be played for that involve teams that aren’t likely to win the championship. Having a Cup to play for gets the fans enthused and interested, etc etc.
So, get rid of interleague. Then, cook up some regional tourneys for the non-playoff teams. Maybe 4-team, best of 3 series or something. Regional tournies are not likely to dent the national interest in the real playoffs, but it gives the rest of us something to watch while we’re already not-watching the Yanks and Sox AGAIN.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
i really like this idea
we discussed it some time ago and the biggest thorn was scheduling. but if these tourneys are being played alongside the real playoffs, it would be pretty interesting. i think MLB would bristle at the idea of people like me not watching a Yankees-Phillies world series game and instead tuning into the Reds-White Sox play for the Budweiser Cup. but if they really want more fan interest then sometimes you have set aside tradition and pride and such. i like this idea.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 14, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This might be interesting
If you can get the players to take part after the season is over.
The incentive would have to be pretty great.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
bonuses, and count the stats
Call them real post-season stats. I think people will play.
Hey, ’Nukkah, do all the Premier players play in the less-prestigious cups?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Yes, although a number of teams will play reserve players in the match
In England, the regular season is the tournament. There are 20 teams, each plays each other twice (home and away), and whoever has the most points at the end wins. At the same time that is going on, tournaments like the Carling Cup and FA Cup are happening. Those both involve all the Premier League teams, as well as teams from the lower leagues. The FA Cup had 762 teams in it last year. Some teams take the competitions seriously, some prioritize their efforts. A midtable or low level team might try to win one of these tournaments, whereas the teams at the top might focus on either winning the Premiership, or finishing in the top four (which grants them access to the Champions League. The fifth and sixth place teams play in a less prestigious – but still pretty prestigious – European tournament called Europa League). Of course, Manchester United just won the Carling Cup, so sometimes the big fish win too. They’ll try to win as many tournaments in a season as possible. For instance, if Man U were to go on to win the Premiership, that would be “winning a double.” I believe Barcelona won seven different tournaments last year.
In MLS, teams try to make the playoffs, but they have other tournaments too like the US Open Cup and CONCACAF Champions League. I follow DC United, and in 2008, United missed the playoffs, but won the US Open Cup. So while the regular season was kind of a disappointment, they got to add a trophy to their case. BK is a Columbus Crew fan, and last year the Crew crashed out of the playoffs, but finished with the best overall regular season record. That got them a trophy called the Supporter’s Shield and a place in the CONCACAF Champions League.
Baseball certainly seems primed to mimic the regulation/promotion aspect of soccer, but there’s no way any sport with relegation will ever happen in the US. However, I think a tournament that was opened up to the minor leagues and the majors would be really interesting. MLB teams (or perhaps only highly seeded MLB teams) could come in in the latter stages of the tournament and face the Bats or the Mudcats or what have you. The timing would be an issue, especially because MLB isn’t going to let anything compete with the World Series, but maybe it could be held in the spring like the World Baseball Classic. Seedings could be based off last year’s record. In this season of 12-over-5 upsets, how fun would it be to see a AA team take down the Astros? Who wouldn’t want to cheer on a deep run by the Montgomery Biscuits? It’s a good way to involve competition at all levels of baseball without any kind of relegation at stake.
by Brendanukkah on Mar 14, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Not me!
Nun-uh, I am not about to cheer for the Montgomery Biscuits.
I can’t really get a complete grasp of all this and that’s not really important beyond the notion that if teams are going to be competitive on a number of levels, it necessitates some fairly smart people in the player-personnel areas. There would be a bit of overlap there, I fear, maybe to the point of conflict of interest.
I think the administrative structure this sort of beast needs to be well thought-out. If you look around at indy-league teams, there are some bad front offices and some good ones. The good ones will win every year.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
It depends on the situation too
For example, if a team is in 2nd or 3rd place and challenging for the top of the Premiership, a team like that might rest some players, especially for a midweek game against inferior competition. Specifically, say you’re sitting at 2nd in the Premier League and a few points under 1st, and you’re playing a Wednesday Carling Cup game against a League One (3rd division) in between two league games on Sunday and Saturday in the same week, and you also have a few young players that you want to get playing time to but don’t want to risk playing in an important league match. You’re going to take that game to rest your starters for the weekend, and play the younger players to get them real game experience. If you still win with the lesser players, then great, and if you lose, you’re only losing a small cash prize that isn’t worth sacrificing points in league play.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
but that would be okay, right?
Especially if you did something like saying that your whole 40-man roster was eligible for the Budweiser Cup. So the Yankees play the best AAA’ers they’ve got. Those guys get some PT, they can be showcased for trade or at least build up their own reputations, and other teams that are trying to win have a better shot.
Even if you were a middle-of-the-pack team, you might decide to play Chapman and Alonso and Heisey and Frazier, just to give them all a lower-pressure moment in the spotlight and see how they perform.
I think it’d be cool.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Baseball is a slow game. It can be slow and hot and slow and hot.
One of the best ways to improve it would be to legalize marijuana.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
by Madville on Mar 14, 2010 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
the best way to legalize marijuana
is to get it from a reputable retailer.
Big Lots, down the street from where I live, has some fairly decent stuff.
The WiseWay market gets theirs fresh from a wholesaler in Tuscaloosa but they don’t sell it on Sundays owing to some “green” laws.
Growing your own has become fashionable but it takes a lot of work and the cost/return isn’t all that great. It’s like canning your own tomatoes.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
You two are just on a whole different level from the rest of this site.
I love it. I mean, I’m not yet convinced that John and Mads aren’t the same person, but even if they are…I love it. Red Reporter kicks ass.
I've not yet met John...
I surmise that he and I are closer in age than say Crolfer and I are. Other than that I, personally, would hesitate to elevate us above the rest of the RR faithful, Geki.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
somebody is jealous there is another old rooster in his hen house.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 15, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I cannot evaluate anyone else
I have enjoyed my brief time on the RR boards, as much as sometimes I think people are a bit put off by my opinions. Truth is, I HAVE opinions and am inclined to offer them. I was of the belief that offering opinion was encouraged on these boards.
Sometimes, I find that my age difference with many of you is cause for a tad of confusion. My expressions, train of thought, maybe a different kind of tradition brought that on.
We are all here because generally we enjoy the Reds chat and I find it amusing, sometimes to the point of making me laugh out loud, at some of the responses.
It is worth noting that getting me to LAUGH OUT LOUD is very difficult. I have never been an overt such person. I get that on these board. And I am grateful.
And Geki, no … Madville and I are not the same person (gads, the humanity!) … but be prepared to fence with me on some topics. I tend to see everyone’s point of view and allow that we are all entitled to one. But as I posted on another thread, I debate and stay inside the topic. If you do that with me, we will have fair and interesting exchanges.
I type pretty fast. It allows for longer postings, fwtiw.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Are you talkin' ;'bout me?
Huh..I’ll take Johnny on..name the place, the time, the number of rounds (G & T’s preferably)…but really Justin it would make a more interesting contest to see if you can keep up with either of us..the gauntlet is thrown down!
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
That was the line of the night, hands down
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
You are a seeasoned drinker madville
you have experience but I have youth. Plus I have realized that with each passing week it is becoming more difficult for me to get drunk. So yes, how about at an RR event, you and I will take center stage, assuming somebody is willing to drive me to a place to spend the night.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 15, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
ah, drinking
back when I was, I usually needed 6 beers to get a buzz started, and another 6 to get flippsy. Even then, I could drive home unassisted, get up the next day and go to work fully affronted.
Now, two beers and I get a buzz. I rarely drink now and, soapboxing a little, think maybe it would be practical if more people either stopped or cut way back. Reasons depend.
I always lived by the credo that you don’t want to be the guy at the party who is remembered for having the lampshade on his head.
Now, there was a time when a beer an inning was fully appreciated. I had a bud who went with me to a minor league DH and both 7-inning games went to at least 10 each.
I forget.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
flippsy ? John are you gay?
Doesn’t matter…if fact it would be great have some folks from the gay and lesbian community here..most of those folks are interesting, thoughtful people who can spell.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
Nope, sorry to disappoint you
just being flippsy. Not gay or inclined to even be amused a good deal of the time.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
what is wrong with being thoughtful and not being able to spell?
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 15, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh oh now Justin's gettingpissed...
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
well try being a little more sensitive
we’re all wonderful in our own special way.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Yeah...you're right
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
by Madville on Mar 15, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
aw come on
yank my tears, mon!!
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
It's just a toy.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
When I glanced at this I thought the bunny was eating its foot and thought, "that is fucking perfect".
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
leave me out of this
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Don't fear your inner bunny..let it romp free.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
I'll drive you to the hospital when he destroys you
I learned a valuable lesson a long time ago – never try to outdrink an old man……they’re just plain better at it.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
i'll take that into consideration.
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 15, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
not wanting to get a DUI makes me a pussy?
Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Mar 15, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
we all know
it takes a real man to hang in there for 24 hours in the drunk tank.
Truthfully, I find nothing about DUI as amusing. I did my share of it.
I just figured my luck would run out, so I stopped.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
just kidding .. I don't drive drunk...nor do I condone it.
Gleet:The chronic morbid discharge as from the nostrils of horses.
yabbit
I bet you have no problem tooling around in one of these babies!
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
That was on our campus a couple weeks ago...
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
wienermobiles
have been around for decades, first commonly seen in the late 50s but were around as far back as the 30s.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
Doesn't turn into a compact when it's cold out
That’s good to know.
by Brendanukkah on Mar 15, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
this is what happens when a hot dog driver
drinks one too many tequilas at the office Christmas party.
The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan
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