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Why Juan Francisco Needs To Have Better Plate Discipline

As we've discussed before, there aren't a whole lot of comparable players for Juan Francisco. He is a once in a generation type player - a guy who appears to have zero command of the strike zone, but somehow still manages to mash at the plate. His minor league numbers defy logic. Last season he batted .295/.329/.518 over two levels despite walking just 4.2% of the time and striking out 20.4% of the time. Both of those numbers were improvements over his career rates of 3.8% for walks and 23.4% for strikeouts.

There have been 22 non-pitchers in the history of Major League baseball who have managed to get 500 or more plate appearances in their career while walking less than 5% of the time and striking out more than 19% of the time. (I chose those numbers in order to broaden my search and because I'd like to work under the assumption that Francisco might improve, even if only a smidgen). Of those 22, only one batted over .260 (Delmon Young - .290), only 2 had an OBP over .300 (Young - .322, Orlando Miller - .305), and only 3 slugged over .420 (Todd Greene - .444, Bill Schroeder - .426, Miguel Olivo - .423). I'm guessing that a batting line of .290/.322/.444 wouldn't make many people too happy, especially coming from a third baseman or left fielder.

But that's not Francisco, you say. Francisco hits an extra-base hit every 9 plate appearances. That's pretty special, even if he does strike out at a high rate and walk at a low rate. That kind of power overcomes poor discipline. Except...

Let me tell you a story about Corey Patterson. All of the words in that previous paragraph could describe Patterson. In Corey's first three seasons in the minors before he was called up to play for Dusty Baker, he batted a combined .281/.339/.498 and hit an extra-base hit every 9.0 plate appearances (actually a slightly better rate than Francisco, who is at 1 ever 9.8 PA). Corey Patterson is one of the 22 players who have acquired at least 500 big league plate appearances with a walk rate under 5% and a strikeout rate over 19% (4.7% and 21.8% respectively). In fact, he's received more plate appearances than any player in history that meets those benchmarks.

No one would likely argue that Patterson and Francisco are comps. That's not really the point I'm trying to make here. The point that I want to make is that success with the sort of plate discipline that Juan Francisco has is rare at the big league level, and by rare I mean that it's pretty much non-existent.

Francisco likely needs to improve his walk-rate by a couple of percentage points before he should be taken seriously as a big leaguer. Strangely enough, I don't say that because it will improve his on base percentage, which it should. No, I say that because if he were able to put together any real success with the walk-rate he currently has, he truly would be a freak among freaks.Improving on his strikeouts isn't really the way to go. Looking back at all of big league history, if we leave the walk-rate below 5% and lower the strikeout threshold to 17%, we see some improved batting averages, but Todd Greene continues to be the highest slugging percentage in the group.

However, if we leave the strikeout rate at 19% or higher and raise the walk-rate to between 6% and 7% then we start to see some serious boppers join the list. Names like Alfonso Soriano, Andres Galarraga, Matt Williams, Reggie Jefferson, Lee May, and Xavier Nady. Now it starts to feel like maybe he can put a career together. A 6% walk-rate isn't all that impressive, but for a slugger who strikes out quite a bit, it looks like the bare minimum for success. (If you are wondering Matt Diaz (.459) and Tony Armas (.453) are the only players who top Greene's .444 slugging percentage with a walk-rate under 6% and a k-rate over 19%).

When I first started writing this, I was thinking that it made sense to go ahead and bring Francisco up. After reading this quote from Bill James (via CNati.com):

Sometimes there's no point in sending those guys down because they just go to AAA and hit .350 and don't learn a damn thing from it.

I thought, yeah, that makes sense, and that's probably exactly what Francisco would do. But then after seeing truly how rare it would be for him to have success at the big league level with that plate discipline, I think maybe another year at Louisville is necessary, but only if he's down there to learn to take a few more pitches. The likelihood of any extended success at the big league level seems very far-fetched to me at this point, given what history has shown us.

Maybe Francisco is a freak among freaks, but I think the Reds are much better served trying to get him to be a little less freaky and a little more normal.

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I never would have guessed

that El Nino and Sound of Music would ever be brought up in the same conversation.

I once defended the managerial styles of Jerry Narron after a Reds loss in a bar after a long night of drinking. I wish I could say that I don't remember doing that.

www.nextyearisouryear.blogspot.com

by chazerize on Mar 22, 2010 7:58 AM EDT reply actions  

I kinda like El Nino.

They scream a bit too much for my liking, but it’s kinda catchy.

by New Red Machine on Mar 22, 2010 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

One of the great things about not having young children anymore is that I'm not up at 7:00!

Interesting post Slyde.
It strikes me that sending El Nin down to AAA with specific issue to work on is the only option. Otherwise he’s taking a spot on the 25 that should be awarded to a more productive player.

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 22, 2010 8:31 AM EDT reply actions  

the thing is

I’m not sure he won’t be productive for a little while in the big leagues. My concern is that he’ll burn bright quickly and then fade just as quickly if he can’t improve his plate discipline. Pitchers will keep going further outside until he can’t reach it.

The scary thing about this is that just about all of the players that I looked at had better walk rates in the minors than in the majors. I still haven’t really found a comparable minor league player to Francisco who then had success in the majors. I’m not saying they don’t exist – surely someone managed to improve their discipline to the point of success in the big leagues. They’re just hard to find because they are so rare.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure such a player doesn't exist

I think for END to have any sustained success at the big league level he needs to get his AAA walk rate up to 7% at a minimum. That’s not likely to happen, but it is possible. My only consolation with the situation is that he is still really young and the organization clearly is telling him to be more patient. Dusty has made comments to that effect, and farm director Terry Reynolds said the same thing in an interview.

He just has to buy into it, and if he’s hitting .280 and slugging .500 he may never buy into it.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I always heard

 that a batter’s “eye” develops early, and you can’t really expect them to improve much once they’re called up.

This came up frequently here in Yankeeland a few years ago, when Melky Cabrera came up and showed plate discipline he never had in the minors. Late bloomer or just a fluke? Four years later, it’s looking like the stat-heads were right, and that year was just a fluke.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

How does that logic apply to a player like Jay Bruce?

He tore it up in the minors, came up and tore it up in the big leagues for a bit. Then last season happened. There has to be room for improvement with young guys, or else why would we still be giving him a chance after almost two full seasons in the big leagues?

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 22, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

she's not talking about production, which can be a bit more fickle

she’s talking about the raw skill of “batter’s eye”. Bruce is still an interesting study. If players can’t really improve their discipline after a certain point, then that would mean that his 10% walk rate in ’09 might be a fluke and he could tumble back to the 8% he put up in the minors.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

jinx

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I got a nasty case of batter's eye once...

I think they make a cream for it.

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 22, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

she's saying that plate discipline develops early

not overall production. players can get better at making contact and hitting for power, but discipline isnt so easy to improve upon.

’course, Bruce improved his discipline last season. so go figure.

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

ahhh

i was first on my screen, then i refreshed.

we probably shouldnt gang up on folks like that. sorry, kazahani.

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's ok.

I was misunderstanding the conversation. I would prefer to have that pointed out.

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 22, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

but do you prefer to have it pointed out

by two jerks and a brilliant handsome guy?

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks Scrabbles, but don't be hard on yourself

Slyde’s the only jerk here

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

ladies and gentlemen

i give you your jerk!

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the offer,

but that’s not the service I usually come to this site for.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Mar 22, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm...

However it comes, I suppose. You guys didn’t make me feel like I was being attacked or put down, so it’s a net positive.

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 22, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, Bruce is a good example, but not for the reasons you are saying

Bruce actually raised his BB rate and cut his K rate, both from his minors numbers and from his first MLB season.

He did improve his “eye” tremendously last season.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

jinx

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Andre Dawson

He seems to have been able to cut back his strikeout totals demonstratively from early in hid career (comparable to Francisco’s current age) while maintaining a steady low walk rate, and turned it into a hall of fame career. Thr strikeout totals aren’t as high (and thus his k rate won’t be as high) as Francisco. But weren’t strikeouts even less acceptable in the late-70s and early 80s than thry are now? Wasn’t the league k-rate much lower back then? If so, that could be the reason you’re not finding comparables.

by Brian B on Mar 22, 2010 9:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Dawson's career BB rate was 5.5% and his K rate was 15.5%, both which are significantly better than END

Plus, the biggest issue is the BB/K ratio. END had a career best .22 ratio this season. You have to get that ratio up to at least .30 to start seeing productive big leaguers (Dawson’s ratio was .39)

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the career rate is irrelevant in this discussion.

The point is how the player changed. I’ll admit I didn’t do yhe math or look up ratios; I just looked at Dawson’s career totals on my phone while walking from the train to the office.

What were his k:bb tates early in his career? How did they change? Did his bb/9 change? k/9? I wasn’t just grabbing any low OBP successful player but one who made adjustments without learning to walk more.

Also, Dawson did bring speed and defense early in his career too, something that Francisco doesn’t and will never have.

by Brian B on Mar 22, 2010 9:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Just looking at Dawson thru age 25

His walk rate in the big leagues was 5.3%. His K-rate was 15.8%. So, not much change over his career numbers.

We only have one year of minor league numbers for Dawson (he only spent 2 years in the minors overall), and his walk rate in the minors was 8% with a k-rate of 16.6%.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again, the averages lie a little here

That 15.8 is helped largely by his absurd age 25 season where his k rate was a ridiculous 10.8%. In the years prior, going backward, his k rate was 16.8%, 19.3%, and 16.4%.

That age 25 season shows what a free swinger could learn to do. He cut back on k’s dramatically, increased his walks by a little (career high of 44 BBs), cut back on HRs, nearly doubled his 2Bs, and pushed his BA up over .300. He didn’t remain that type of hitter, though, and made a pretty good career out of relatively abnormal blueprint.

by Brian B on Mar 22, 2010 11:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

sure

And I tried to be clear that history is stacked against Francisco, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t be an anomaly. I just think it’s unlikely and if we’re pinning our hopes on that (I don’t believe the Reds are), then we’ll likely be disappointed.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Minor league numbers

I do know that most minor league pitching staffs have some holes in them, so if we aren’t actually comparing numbers to the best arms on the staff, it would seem that there’s a natural flaw in that. Also, I’ve seen enough minor league ball to know that umpiring isn’t always that consistent.

Now, this may all average out, but getting a walk against a minor league pitcher isn’t the same as earning one against a major league pitcher, IMHO.

I realize we are talking about plate discipline, but I am very very wary of using minor league stats for this sort of comparison.

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

what would you have me use?

In general there is some correlation between minor league numbers and major league numbers, especially as you get closer to the big leagues. So, I don’t think we can ignore the numbers all together.

And I think we can both agree that his walk and strikeout rates in the minors are bad enough that we should expect him to suddenly become adequate at either skill just because he’s in the majors and not the minors, right?

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah you are in a tough spot

You don’t have access to my own personal stats sheet here on players. In any event, I can’t really put too much stress on you for this. Just adding my nickel’s worth to the dollar bin.

I agree that he is likely to see more consistent pitching AND umpiring at the top level. That, combined with concentrated coaching and tech equipment, he stands to improve more with the Reds than with the Bats or Dragons.

Does this help ease your pain?

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

My phrase should have said "shouldn't expect him to suddenly become adequate"

I don’t think more consistent pitching and umpiring means better strikezone judgment for Francisco. Big league pitchers are in the big leagues because typically they can keep moving out of a hitter’s zone a couple of inches until they find that spot where it’s not the hitter’s zone anymore. It is unclear that Francisco has a zone that he will not swing at, but surely he has a zone that he can’t hit in (if not, then he’s going to be a badass!).

And I’d bet there is much less difference in quality of umpiring between AAA and MLB than there is in quality of pitching.

I’m also not convinced that the Reds best coaches at are that big league level. A wise man once told me that you want your best coaches at the lower levels where they can instill the right lessons early on. Not sure that’s what the Reds have done, but I’m also not convinced that Brook Jacoby is that good of a coach – especially at teaching patience.

That being said, I think Francisco will likely improve, but I don’t believe that it will be to the 2% or more in walk rate that I think he needs to become a successful power hitter in the big leagues, at least not without some considerable focus on the issue.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't argue on Jacoby

Here’s where I am with END. I think the guy is a waste of time and effort, but just staying in the flavor of the thread, if he’s in the conversation, then I won’t dismiss it by saying “trade him and move on to a new subject.”

I did talk to a guy who faced him last year in the SoL and he told me END is a hopeless case if he doesn’t tighten up his strike zone. This particular pitcher said exactly what you are saying … that big league pitchers will eventually just move the strike zone out of the guy’s reach.

So, we come to what conclusion here?

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably

I thought about this exchange over the past few minutes, how I read all this and that. Fact is: Francisco is a damning enigma. I can’t think of too many position players who can incite so much confusion.

You can think of so, so so many guys in history who are just like this man and the few who rose up and became superstars. I keep thinking of Tony Perez, how we would be just giddy to get a lefthanded version of that guy. Francisco … but for a bit of luck or hard work, how close is he?

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is the problem about not being able to see the future

Damnit, science, let’s get on that!

We can look to history all we want, but some players are born to be outliers. Could END be an outlier? Sure. The problem is that it just isn’t practical to pin your hopes on an outlier. On the other hand, when you’ve got a real one, special things can happen.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

the future sucks

I have seen it in the faces of the ones who have returned. They are not happy.

But the truth is, Francisco does offer some hints to his talent, so we got that going for us. This is maybe an issue of

a. expectations
b. what we qualify/quantify as success

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly, any insight on why it's so difficult

to add 2 walks every 3 weeks if you’re END?

It’s easier said than done, sure, but why?

That would give him a 7% walk rate, which Slyde states puts him in more favorable company.

by mdccclxix on Mar 22, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is why stats are so compelling

It’s like the guy who suddenly improves his free throw percentage from 60 percent to 80 percent … it’s maybe 2 more made shots per game, no big deal until you are looking around for somebody to foul in the final seconds.

Two more walks a month doesn’t sound too difficult to get, I agree, and neither does winning 2 more games a month … but going from 13 wins a month to 15 puts you in the playoff hunt.

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brandon Larsen

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 22, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dawson's a decent comp, because of the era

And yes, I meant to compare to league averages, but I got tired and forgot. I will try to do it this afternoon, if I can find the time.

One thing on Dawson is that I think average walk rates were also lower then too. nycredsfan’s point of ratio might be the bigger issue.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, it reinforced to me how much I don't like our radio announcers,

because this weekend I was listening to one of the games and tHom and Brantley went on for about 10 minutes how END needed to be on the roster RIGHT NOW! Of course he proceeded to strike out as they were saying it.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 9:32 AM EDT reply actions  

well

the question (and the reason I was thinking at first that he should be brought up) is whether or not you think he’ll actually improve in the minors. I can see an argument that he should be in the majors for 2 reasons:
1. He’s ready as he’ll ever be and sending him to the minors will be a waste of his brief, early prime.
2. He could fail and in doing so will learn a lesson (a la Homer Bailey). Not that END seems to have ego issue, but sometimes players need to struggle in order to advance their game.

I don’t think sending him to the minors is a foregone conclusion. I do however think it is unlikely that he’ll be a successful big leaguer without making the necessary improvements in plate discipline. I just wonder if that will ever happen in the minors.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes I think the coaching is best at the top level

Maybe that combined with the immediacy of the dollars, glitz and glam that come with being up can help him evolve somewhat.

New enemy SS, Escobar, has low BB, high K rates.

by ol Pete on Mar 22, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like the context makes a big difference.

If END could play Escobar-level defense, we wouldn’t be nearly so concerned with his k and bb rates.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Mar 22, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Plus

I wonder if END can maintain his power numbers without improved plate discipline. That’s my real concern about him, because without power his game is kinda weak (no pun intended).

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think, in theory, he can increase his walks while keeping his power

Usually you see guys losing power when they cut down on strikeouts, but learning to lay off of bad pitches shouldn’t necessarily decrease his power that much. It’s not like he’s hitting breaking balls in the dirt for homeruns anyway.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's not what I'm saying

I’m saying that I don’t think he can maintain his power without improving his plate discipline.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, right. guess I should've actually read your post :-)

I agree, I don’t think he’ll maintain power with his current plate discipline, since pitchers will eventually stop throwing him anything near the plate.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I reiterate

Brandon Larsen

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 22, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn’t comparing their values, only suggesting that perhaps guys can evolve a bit. Whether its possible or not, the hitting coach and whoever is putting a lot of effort at pitch recognition and selection as well as some other stuff.

Maybe a tougher test will be CF (Gomez), who also plays great D, but is bad offensively and he is getting the overhaul of mechanics and approach.

by ol Pete on Mar 22, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

He and Rickie Weeks, providing a solid middle infield combo in the lineup!

But Escobar provides speed which is essential for a SS, since he’ll have to hit second in the batting order. </Dusty’d>

by Brian B on Mar 22, 2010 10:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They’re talking about hitting him 2nd.

by ol Pete on Mar 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

His K-rate is almost 10% lower than END

and his walk rate is a tad bit higher. Plus, there’s the defense thing.

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by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree with that, but these guys weren't saying he needed to be on the team now for those reasons

they were basically saying, this guys is awesome! He’s got power! We NEED power! Call him up!

Basically there was no acknowledgment of the serious flaws in his game. But I agree, I’m not sure he’s going to get much better. Still at age 22, it’s possible, and I’d like to give him one more year. Besides, if he isn’t going to get better, I’m not sure I want him on my team anyway.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's the thing that we don't think about as much with END

The guy is only 22. If he grew up in the US instead of the Dominican, he’d be a senior in college right now, and probably 2-3 years away from the big leagues after being drafted. There’s still time for him to improve, but he needs to start showing that improvement in the minor leagues, or we’re in store for a frustrating player at the big league level as he continues to make adjustments.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Mar 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, and my point is, if he was a recent draftee, no one would be calling for him to be on the big club

there’s just not really a reason for it right now, IMHO.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, there should be absolutely no rush to get him to the big leagues right now

Especially with a Dusty-lovin’ veteran manning the job for the next two years. AAA should be a no-brainer.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Mar 22, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've just noticed that (at least on fangraphs) ...

that k rate is k/ab and walk rate is bb/pa. Is there a reason that k-rate is not calculated out of pa?

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Mar 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

no idea

but I think it’s bad. I think both should be out of PA, which is what I put in this post and typically throughout the site.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

It’s bad that changes in walks, holding everything else constant, change the K rate.

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Mar 22, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

trade him

great work Slyde

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Hey!

He may be a freak, but he’s our freak!

by Brendanukkah on Mar 22, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

it's kind of a tough position to trade from though

you either start shopping him now, in which case teams would be suspicious as to why. of course, as long as you get one team who doesnt give a care why, you have a trade partner.

or you could wait until mid-season after he’s walloped AAA for a few months. but then i guess we should be sellers trying to move Harang, Arroyo, and maybe even Cordero. it’s a strange situation to sell a prospect.

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

suspicious as to why?

How about “He plays 3rd base and we’ve already got one of those.”

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

"but...they still need a power-hitting LF!"

then Dayton Moore’s head starts spinning.

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

[checks fangraphs]

Actually, Jose did get a little better at taking walks, going from ~3% in his first two years to over 5%. His K’s were never quite as high but still in the upper teens.

by ken on Mar 22, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

i like that comp

maybe we can deal the kid for the next Aaron Harang.

"always look on the unbucket side of life"

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 22, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Two of those

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Mar 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt anyone's not going to understand that we have questions about his plate discipline.

But I feel like someone’s almost always willing to take a chance on a young, high upside guy like Francisco.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Mar 22, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree here

The guy apparently shows no signs of being a social miscreant, which isn’t even Milton Bradley’s problem. So, if he is young, at least fairly “moral” in fiber, he can be attractive to almost every organization.

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pittsburgh is in the business of collecting "maybe" prospects.

Possibly there is a fit there.

I hope I’m wrong about END, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him have a career just a shade better than Craig Brazell.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Mar 22, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

we need to be kind to the Pirates

Their front office insists they are in it to win it this year.
Even Russell says the team needs to get about the business of making playoff plans. I know I’d be excited.

The baseball-bat collision is violent and involves large forces which act over a very short time and which compress the ball to a fraction of its normal size. -- Alan M. Nathan

by johnu1 on Mar 22, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's better to send him to AAA and wait to trade.

That way, we have him if we need him, in case of injury, etc. If he puts up the numbers we think he will and we still want to trade him, we will have a much better idea of what our needs will be at that point in time.

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 22, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

definitely

don’t rush it, but if a deal presents itself, don’t hesitate either.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Concurred

or else get Brandon Larsen’d

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 22, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think we should just trade him.

Running out to frontyard laughing! -Fat Vegas Alan

by GrooveLeg on Mar 22, 2010 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Not sure if this has been brought up, but the difference between 4% and 7% BB rate

is 16 walks!

I think he can get there, by 23 or 24, personally.

I know it’s tempting to bring him up this year, but he isn’t needed that badly. Nix can fill in as a lefty, as he’s still in his power prime.

by mdccclxix on Mar 22, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I was hoping someone would mention Nix

Career walk rate: 5.3%
Career strikeout rate: 27.2%
Career slugging: .421

He just missed being on the list of 22.

In the minors, before he was first brought up in 2003, he batted .276/.339/.442 with 9.3% walk rate and a 19.4% strikeout rate.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Mar 22, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

END

I think it is obvious how to handle the situation. You are very correct in insisting he has to improve his eye to be a successful major league hitter. Statistics rarely lie, and if there’s only 22 MLB players in the list and it is topped by, gasp, Corey Patterson, he must. At 22 and Rolen around at least the next 2 years, they can let him work on some things in AAA, play a little outfield and first base, become more versatile, and then he could be the 24th or 25th man NEXT year. We do need power but major league pitchers will exploit him. With Cairo, Miles, Burke, Janish, Sutton and Frazier, we have depth around the infield. While not superstars, they are all, with the exception of Frazier, seasoned in the majors. I have little doubt that Janish could play a great third base if needed with his range and arm. juan has tim e to learn to really be a ballplayer instead of relying on his freakish power.

by mox on Mar 22, 2010 5:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Uh...

Jannish would be a waste at 3B unless he suddenly learns to hit real time MLB hitting
Miles is fucking 35
Did you see the video of Burke trying to hit off Andoidis.. need i say more
Sutton is going to have hard time hanging on as utility guy
Frazier has terrific potential…but potential doesn’t win games.
END<>Brandon Larsen.
END however is young.
Send him down.
Tell him to work of his plate discipline.
Tell him he ain’t coming back up ’til he can take a walk.
Acquiring Scott Rolen last year looks better and better as the season gets closer.

However lets not forget that the pitching at the MLB level is significantly superior to AAA.

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 22, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

You seem to be an angry fellow.

I don’t know how much better the Reds can do. We can’t buy a pennant, ala NYC, so I think we have to make peace with our team of young, unproven talent and potential. It could take us pretty far, if it’s managed correctly.

No amount of prosperity is sufficient to eliminate all misfortune, and sloth is impervious to opportunity.

by kazahani2 on Mar 23, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

anger

yea whats with the anger. You said pretty much the same thing I did that Rolen is at third and he’s not ready. Even if he was on the roster it would be as a utility player, which he isn’t, unlike the others I listed. Chill

by mox on Mar 23, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

No no no no no my dear kaz (may i cal you kaz?) I'm not angry...(not even close).

I am just calling them as I’s sees them.
Unproven talent is just that unproven.
It is the management’s job to blend a couple of rooks in with the proven guys and still find a way to win.
Rolen is proven…over and over
These other fellows are not.
And I am the biggest Frazier fan at RR.

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 24, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

you also love Nix

you want to marry him.

Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Mar 24, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I do see him as a viable bench guy...

BUT, I just dropped him from one of my fantasy teams as he doesn’t fit into the myx on that specific roster.

Potential doesn't win games.

by Madville on Mar 24, 2010 5:39 AM EDT reply actions  

nobody replied?

Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, and Leake. The future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Mar 24, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

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