The Anti-Greats: Day 2
Name: Ryan Dempster
Position: SP
Played for the Reds: 2002-2003
Why he's here: The Reds reached the 2002 all-star break with a sense of opportunity: they were five games over .500, and sat just two games back of the St. Louis Cardinals. As it turned out, the team's success was mostly an illusion, but give the front office credit for identifying just how weak their patchwork starting rotation was. Then take away all those credits and tack on a few demerits for their pursuit of Ryan Dempster, who to that point had put together one good year, and a handful of bad ones. The Reds traded Juan Encarnacion, Wilton Guerrero and Ryan Snare for Dempster, who proceeded to post a 6.19 ERA for the Reds over the 2nd half of the year. He wasn't the reason the Reds finished 2002 six games under .500, staring up at a 19 game chasm between them and the Cards, as the team somehow won 7 of Dempster's 15 starts that year. The next year, Dempster managed to pitch worse: 3-7, 6.54 ERA (63 ERA+) in 115.2 innings. Mercifully released by the Reds after 2003, Dempster signed with the Cubs where he found something approaching success as a closer, and then inexplicably morphed into a very good starting pitcher in 2008.
Role on the team: #2 Starting pitcher
Name: Leo Durocher
Position: SS
Played for the Reds: 1930-1933
Why he's here: The Reds are such a great franchise, even their all-time worst team is littered with hall of famers! Leo the Lip was claimed off waivers by the Reds prior to the 1930 season, and made him their starting shortstop for the next three-plus seasons. Looking back, it's remarkable that the team put up with him that long. In fact, Durocher's unique combination of playing time and playing quality earns my vote for The Worst Player in Reds History. Consider: In three full seasons, plus about a month in 1933, Durocher came to the plate over 1300 times. He failed to drive in 100 runs in that span, and barely scored 100 runs. His cumulative batting line of .227/.275/.303 equaled a 54 OPS+. He stole three bases. His defense, which basically constituted all of his value, was no better than average. His best moment came on May 7, 1933, when Durocher was one of three players traded to the Cardinals for a three man package that included Paul Derringer (#22 all-time Red).
Role on the team: Starting shortstop, manager
Name: Jack Fisher
Position: RP
Played for the Reds: 1969
Why he's here: Four of the players on this mythical team have just one season of tenure with the Reds, and three of those four are relief pitchers, speaking perhaps to the sheer volatility of the position. Prior to the 1969 season, the Reds targeted "Fat Jack" Fisher, and traded a couple of spare parts to the White Sox for Fisher, who had been a valuable swing pitcher for the South-Siders in '68. The Reds used him in a similar role in 1969, although they should not have. Fisher started 15 games, and made 19 appearances out of the bullpen. As a reliever, Fisher was bad, but not dreadful: a 4.36 ERA in 43.1 innings, with a WHIP of 1.18. As a starter, he was off the charts: a 3-4 record with a 6.20 ERA and a 1.67 WHIP. He averaged fewer than 5 innings pitched per start, and was almost certainly not helped by the lack of consistency in his role: he made at least one start in every month but July, and two of his starts were with more than 5 days rest, while three of his starts came off just 1 or 2 days rest. In a fitting trade after the 1969 season, neither Fisher nor the two players received from the Angels ever played in the majors again.
Role on the team: Long reliever
Name: Rich Gale
Position: RP
Played for the Reds: 1983
Why he's here: The Reds received Rich Gale from the Giants, in exchange for Mike Vail-who wasn't too far from making this ill-fated team on his own merits. So in that sense, garbage in/garbage out. Gale was in the midst of a precipitous career slide: he finished 4th in Rookie of the Year voting with the Royals in 1978 as a starting pitcher with a 125 ERA+. He had a decent season in 1980, but was otherwise sub-par. The '83 Reds had designs on Gale being in their rotation, but a 9.19 ERA as a started scrapped those plans by Memorial Day. When he was off, the entire stadium, plus most of the surrounding county knew it: Gale was the losing pitcher of record six times in 1983, five of which came while as a starter. In those six appearances, Gale logged just 19 innings, and allowed 34 runs (32 of which were earned). To his credit, Gale settle down quite a bit as a reliever, with a 4.01 ERA in 58.1 innings. Still, the damage was done, and his 65 ERA+ for the year cemented his place on this team.
Role on the team: Relief pitcher
Name: Joey Hamilton
Position: RP, SP
Played for the Reds: 2001-2003
Why he's here: Hamilton, for his career, was the very definition of an average starting pitcher: he won one more game than he lost, and his career ERA+ was 94. His career trajectory, were it to be plotted on a graph, would look more or less like a straight line, in a diagonal path from upper left to lower right. The portion of his career spent with the Reds, as you may have guessed, occupies that lower right section of the graph. Dumped by the Blue Jays late in the 2001 campaign, the Reds signed Hamilton on the cheap for the remainder of the season, and he wasn't good...but it was just four starts. For 2002, Hamilton was awarded the honor of Opening Day pitcher, and for a solid month, he justified the team's faith, holding a 2.65 ERA on May 1. Two months later, his ERA had risen two full runs, and the real painful stretch hadn't even happened yet. Hamilton started on July 2, pitched 4 innings and gave up 5 runs. Five days later, five innings, five more runs, and a trip to the disable list. When he came back on August 7th, he gave up 7 runs, and was pulled in the 5th. An ERA increase of 0.90 in just three starts. Relegated to the pen thereafter, Hamilton did little to bring down his numbers over the last couple months. In 2003, Hamilton surrendered 15 runs in 10.2 innings, and his career was over.
Role on the team: Long reliever, spot starter
0 recs |
56 comments
|
Comments
2002
Hamilton, Dempster, Mohler, Estes… that was a rough year.
You mean Pineda?
I liked him. Marty did not.
by Brian B on Feb 9, 2010 2:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I knew it.
Joey Hamilton was as sure a bet as Morgana’s inevitable back problems. He was sack-of-shit bad.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Fat Jack
During the end of the 60s, when the motto was If you can hold the Reds to 9 runs, you have a chance … Fisher was one of about 4 guys on the Reds staff who had lost at least 20 games at least once in their careers. Two of them were Ramos and Pascual, who did it with the horrible old Senators. I think Al Jackson was on there too. Remember these guys and who they pitched with — the old Mets teams.
They also had Cloninger for awhile, and despite an otherwise OK career, Tony the Tiger was lame for Cincy.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Riverfront
you might want to include that Dempster was pitching hurt. Tommy John surgery ended his 2003 season, and based on the scar tissue, he had been hurt for a while.
If he was hurt then he shouldn't have been the "#1 starter".
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't he get poked with a stick when he arrived?
Isn’t that how we do things?
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
Well the MRI was inconclusive
When Kremchek opened him up it was to remove bone chips, but he discovered he needed TJ.
You gotta love a doctor who has to cut open the person
and look around inside to make a diagnosis. I suppose that’s partly why we won’t have Volquez for most of this season. If we miss the postseason by just a few games, I’m going to be quite pissed.
He sits alone...Reds are not home.
Hard to forgive that performance
I still root against him. Even though he had a good year in ‘09 with the 3.65 era, he still has a chance to make his incredible contract (4 years/52 million) look bad with a sharp decline. Being in the division, he’s one of the players whose failure is most sought, by me at least. We only faced him once and won in extra innings but he only gave up 3 unearned runs.
Is it just me, or do the narratives not make these guys seem that terrible?
Maybe we just haven’t gotten to the Dave Williams and Jimmy Anderson tier of garbage.
by Brian B on Feb 9, 2010 2:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Was Williams that bad? He doesn't stick out in my mind
Another fun exercise might be the worst best/contracts in recent memory.. I vote Larkin & Milton for worst, Gant and Harnisch (maybe?) as best
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Bad contracts:
Mike Stanton
Willy Taveras
Corey Patterson
Jerry Reuss
Chris Hammond
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
But Reuss was prolly pretty cheap.
He was just a total waste of cash.
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
I went more high dollar with mine, but tough to argue against yours
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
oooohhhh, Todd Coffey deserves a mention, no?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Cormier?
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Freel
Before the curse of stastics fell upon mankind we lived a happy, innocent life, full of merriment and go and informed by fairly good judgement.
-Hilaire Belloc
Yes, absolutely.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 10, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Cormier $2.25 M in 2007, but he was a trade acquisition, not a signing.
July 31, 2006: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Cincinnati Reds for Justin Germano.
In 2006, he had an ERA+ of 103.
In 2007, he only pitched 6 games, but he allowed an earned run in only one of those games. He went unscored-upon in his first 5 games. In retrospect, he doesn’t look that sucky nor expensive for a LOOGY.
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 10, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Probably right.
But my mind’s eye had him as an old, white yard turd.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 10, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
But he pretty much went to shit once he got that extension, no?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
He just wasn't clutch.
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
Yeah, that extension was signed at the beginning of 2007
And he was never any good afterwards. At least Baltimore paid the freight for the second year of the deal.
i like larkin but
I was so pissed about that contract…terrible use of resources.
by Snake the Jake on Feb 9, 2010 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was pissed at the way Larkin handled the situation
Play for the Mets my ass. And then invite the local media in to his living room so we can look at his family while he whines about his contract? I wanted so bad for Carl to blow him off after that. Instead he just plain blew him.
by Brian B on Feb 9, 2010 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Williams was pretty awful
and the sole exchange for Sean Casey, who everybody loved.
I still have nightmares over that big, slow, hanging curve
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Actually, there's another way to look at that trade...
…while recognizing that the trade was awful, here are the events:
December 8, 2005: Dave Williams traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Cincinnati Reds for Sean Casey and cash.
May 25, 2006: Dave Williams traded by the Cincinnati Reds with cash to the New York Mets for Robert Manuel.
July 29, 2009: Robert Manuel traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the Seattle Mariners for Wladimir Balentien.
So we may or may not have come out well on the cash involved, but we got 3 good games out of Manuel, plus 40 decent games by Bladdy Valentine, PLUS whatever Bladdy does this year, plus whatever we get if we trade Bladdy.
Meanwhile, Casey is out of the game, and would not have any difference on the 2006-2008 Reds, and we didn’t have to pay my beloved Casey a combined $13.3M for his last 3 seasons, which were well below par offensively for a 1Bman.
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 10, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
speaking of anti-greats
Willy Taveras has been released.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Dempster
I have been very surprised with his success as a starter with the Cubs. He’s been a better starter than he was a closer. He was a decent closer. I can’t blame the Reds for letting him walk knowing what they knew back then. The Cubs are very fortunate that Dempster recovered so well from Tommy John surgery.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
the list expands
One guy we sort of got lucky and dodged a bullet on was Jacque Jones.
The Jacquestrap has signed a minor league deal with the Twins.
Good to see the guy back in baseball.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
No kidding?
You’re lucky. Maybe you’ll Eternal Sunshine Taveras and Patterson out of there as well.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 10, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Did watch the Reds much between 2001-2005
Most of these guys were Bowden specials… AAAA players who had low ceilings and low floors, or they were reclamation projects like Joey Hamilton. Guys GiGi would gush about their heart and character, despite limited talent.
by justin007000 on Feb 10, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Here's a refresher...
Pineda we signed for only $208,000, and he pitched 26 games for us out of the pen in 2002 for an ERA+ of 103. That might have actually been a good signing.
Jerry Reuss was an all-star pitcher who won 202 career games and finished second in the Cy Young balloting to Steve Carlton in 1980. He suddenly sucked in 1986 at age 37 (shocking!), and the Dodgers released him in 1987 after 9+ years of service to the team, and only after two games of decent relief pitched that season. He signed with the Reds 8 days later, and the Reds game him 7 starts to see if he could regain his prowess. It was a disaster. He went 0-5 with a 7.61 ERA, and the Reds also had to dump him. The Angels picked him up, and he stunk there, too. He signed with the White Sox for 1988 at age 39, and had a great resurgence: 13-9 with a 3.44 ERA and a WHIP of 1.235 in 32 games (29 starts). Then reality struck, and he was out of the game after the 1990 season.
What did you expect? It's the internet. Some of us are full of crap.
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 10, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
F*** you, Ryan Dempster.
That is all.
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71
Alex Trebek
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 10, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That's hilarious.
and subsequently, rec’d
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by 

























