The Anti-Greats: Day 1
The cyber-ink was not yet dry on the Top 100 Reds series when the call rang out: ‘Who are the worst 100’?
I intentionally kept most of the Top 100 series as positive as I could. Over 1700 players have worn the familiar colors since 1890, and in carving out this relatively small slice of the 100 greatest, the players would by definition occupy the part of our brains labeled "Happy Reds thoughts. Do not throw out".
Defining the worst is a whole lot trickier than doing the same for the best. Generally speaking, the worst never even see the field. Some, however, sneak through the cracks, and can be said to contribute fewer wins than some guy watching from the dugout. Or some other team’s dugout. Rarely is this the fault of the actual player. Players have varying levels of natural ability; they age in ways that are sometimes predictable, sometimes not; they work hard at a very difficult game that most of us fail at before needing to shave on a daily basis. Usually, more fault should be placed at the feet of the decision makers who traded for these players or signed them or continued to play them past the limits of supporting evidence. The stats, however, are assigned to the guys on the field, and so this list is about them. A celebration, if you will, of the bad times that help us really appreciate the good ones.
To give the exercise a bit more structure, I’ve selected 25 players in such a way that they might mirror the makeup of an actual roster. In alphabetical order, I present the top 25 anti-greats, to be posted in daily blocks of five:
Name: Bill Bergen
Position: C
Played for the Reds: 1901-1903
Why he's here: Bergen broke through to the majors as a 23 year old, and the intention was to allow aging catcher Heinie Peitz (#96 all-time Red) to transition to 2nd base. Bergen's bat never allowed that to happen. In three seasons as a Red, Bergen hit .191/.218/.238 for a stunning OPS+ of 33. Bergen's top notch reputation as a defensive catcher kept him in the league for 11 years, but only three were with the Reds. By 1903, despite Bergen's career peak season (518 OPS, 41 OPS+), Bergen had been relegated to a backup role, and Peitz was again the first string backstop. After the season, Bergen was sold to Brooklyn. His career batting average of .170 is the all-time low for any player with at least 2,500 at-bats, and he remains the only player in MLB history with at least 500 at-bats and an OBP under .200. On the flip-side, he's ninth on the career catcher assist list, despite never being a true full-time player.
Role on the team: Starting catcher
Name: Rocky Bridges
Position: 2B, 3B, SS
Played for the Reds: 1953-1957
Why he's here: By 1952, Reds second baseman Grady Hatton (#61 all-time Red) was slowing way down, and the Reds had little depth from which to replace him. The team was eight years removed from their last winning season, so they decided to make a splash, participating in a stunning 4-team trade in which the Reds received the 25 year old Bridges from the Dodgers, plus cash from the Braves. All the Reds had to give up was young right fielder Joe Adcock to the Braves. Bridges played in 346 games over 4+ seasons with Cincy, played above average defense at a variety of positions, and hit .241/.306/.283 (55 OPS+). To prove his well-rounded abilities, Bridges also stole 8 bases over that stretch, while only being caught seven times. Just a handful of games into the '57 season, the Reds placed Bridges on waivers. The player for whom he was traded (Adcock) went on to play 14 more seasons (for a total of 17), and accumulated 336 career home runs and a lifetime OPS+ of 123.
Role on the team: Utility infielder
Name: Ownie Carroll
Position: SP, RP
Played for the Reds: 1930-1932
Why he's here: Ownie Carroll's career was generally unspectacular. His career win-loss mark of 64-90 over nine seasons speaks for itself. Carroll, however, owns a record which may never be broken: he was traded three times during his career, and each time the team that traded him received a future hall-of-famer in return (Waite Hoyt, Jim Bottomley, and Dazzy Vance). Tellingly, each of the baseball immortals was past his prime at the time of the Carroll trades. Carroll came to the Reds in 1930 not through a trade, but via purchase from the Yankees. It was Carroll's third team of the 1930 campaign-a season in which he lost all seven of his decisions, and had an ERA over seven to match. The Reds of the ‘30s were bad, but not hasty. They eased into their usage of Carroll, giving him 14 innings in the remainder of the 1930 season, 107 in 1931, and 210 in 1932. The team was rewarded for their patience, with Carroll leading the league in losses (19), while finishing 6th in earned runs allowed, 7th in wild pitches, and 1st in hit batsmen. His cumulative Reds record was 13-29, and his ERA of 4.84 was good for an 80 ERA+.
Role on the team: #4 Starting pitcher
Name: Charlie Comiskey
Position: 1B
Played for the Reds: 1892-1894
Why he's here: Comiskey is in the Hall of Fame, but not for his playing. And Comiskey was a pretty decent player, but not for the Red Stockings. The first baseman jumped from the St. Louis Browns of the American Association to Cincinnati after the 1891 season and, despite his recent streak of poor hitting, played in 141 out of Cincy's 155 games in 1892. Comiskey rewarded their faith with a .227/.274/.290 line (71 OPS+), and it was by far his best season with Cincy. In part-time duty, the next two seasons showed OPS+ marks of 40 and 41, respectively. He still held up fairly well with the glove, and his legendary speed still showed signs of being present, but he simply couldn't get on base. He retired to become a manager after the 1894 season.
Role on the team: Starting 1st baseman, cheapskate owner
Name: Adam Comorosky
Position: RF, LF
Played for the Reds: 1934-1935
Why he's here: At the end of the 1933 season, the Reds were at rock bottom. The team had finished dead last for the 3rd consecutive season, and prior to that had finished 7th out of 8 teams in two straight seasons. They hadn't topped 60 wins since 1929. And while the Reds were pretty bad in all facets of the game, they were really bad at hitting, finishing 7th or 8th in the 1933 NL in every single major offensive category. Figuring they therefore had a surplus of pitching, the team traded #2 starting pitcher Red Lucas (#26 all-time Red) and marginal outfielder Wally Roettger to Pittsburgh for Comorosky and 2nd baseman Tony Piet. Piet was bad; Comorosky was worse: .258/.315/.312 (70 OPS+) in 1934, as the team fell further into the depths-registering their franchise-worst W/L percentage (.344, a mark that still stands). For the 1935 season, the Reds took Comorosky's starting job away, and he justified their stance with a 68 OPS+, and a .953 fielding percentage (in the outfield!). Comorosky did not play in the majors after 1935.
Role on the team: Starting right-fielder
67 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
And for those who can't remember the Bill Bergen era...
These lists are about to get real modern. For real.
bergen
Most curious stuff. I am not having a clue how you extrapolate the data, but these oldtimers and their defensive numbers seem a little hard to grasp. They just didn’t have the leather in those days and if you ever saw some of these old mitts, it’s a wonder they could catch anything. I won’t even attempt to evaluate field conditions or the spitball.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I can't wait to see if Chico Ruiz beats out Royce clayton on the list
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
I have a wish list for this:
Taveras, Patterson, Larson, Sadler, Bilardello, J. Haynes, J. Anderson, Cormier, Milton, Peter Edward Rose Jr., Venable, Mike Vail, Biittner, Joey Hamilton….. god there have been so many shitty players over the years.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Joey Hamilton, ugh
I had forgotten about him.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
And I don't see how
a guy who had a career total of 16 PA in the majors could be considered for worst players in any team’s history, simply because he never got the chance to suck enough.
I would like to nominate Jose Acevedo, Elizardo Ramirez, Juan Castro, Ray Olmedo, and of course Patterson, Taveras (mainly because Dusty let both of them lead-frickin-off for half-seasons), Haynes, and Milton are good answers.
Ooooohhhhh, Castro
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
16 PA is enough for the 'old guard' to know if you are a scrappy clutch guywho plays 'the right way'
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
you take the Lizard off of there!
he will always be a personal favorite of mine. He had a nice stretch where he provided solid work before he hurt his shoulder.
Elizardo Ramirez was always, and will always be complete garbage
He was a lanky, physically immature kid with control problems.
Top it off, Dave Miley and Jerry Narron never really used the kid correctly, but I chalk that up more to his inconsistency and them not knowing if he could actually legitimately start, or if he was a guy that needed to come out of the pen.
Honestly, I wish we had kept Cory Lidle, rather than trade him to Philly for trash like Ramirez, Javon Moran and Joe Wilson.
Rooting for Elizardo Ramirez is about as bad as rooting for Chris Michalak.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I'm with you
The LIzard showed just enough potential that you wanted to root for him.
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying he would have been anything more than a bottom of the rotation guy
but he just wasn’t the same after he hurt his shoulder.
This was a nice stretch of pitching by the LIzard. He wasn’t spectatulor, but I believed between Arroyo and Harang pitching out of this world, and the Lizard and Milton being just good enough the Reds could do it.
The Lizzard went down, and when he did so did the Reds.
by justin007000 on Feb 9, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Fanbase fail
It’s that logic that keeps the Reds and their fans stuck in The Lost Decade.
We root for crappy players, and we’re all guilty of it!
When you’re rooting for guys like Pokey Reese, Chris Stynes, Rob Bell, Ron Villone, Todd Walker, Robin Jennings, Chris Reitsma (and man did I root like Hell for him after running into him @ Diamonds), Lance Davis, Jose Acevedo, Reggie Taylor, D’Angelo Jimenez, Ray Olmedo, Felipe Lopez, Wily Mo Pena, Danny Graves as a SP, Jimmy Haynes, Ryan Wagner (guilty of rooting for this guy), Juan Castro, Javier Valentin, Paul Wilson, Brandon Claussen (again, guilty), Ramon Ortiz, Matt Belisle, Luke Hudson, David Ross, Norris Hopper, Dave Williams, Chris Michalak, Jeff Keppinger, Bobby Livingston, Tom Shearn, Paul Bako, Jerry Hairston, Jr, Josh Fogg, Daryl Thompson, Adam Rosales, Paul Janish, Justin Lehr, Laynce Nix (definitely really guilty) and Matt Maloney, you’re rooting for guys to be way better than they ever can be. You’re rooting for the impossible.
Cincinnati fans need to stop rooting for the impossible. They need to be more realistic. Accept the fact we have crappy players in our organization, and accept those players for who they are, as opposed to who we want them to be. I definitely need to do it, we all need to do it. I’d rather this roster pleasantly surprise us with a season on the good side of .500 than expect or demand it. Last year I knew we were going to be awful, so it didn’t really phase me all that much, but back in 2006, I really believed we had something, and it was all smoke and mirrors. Believe on tangibles, forget the intangibles, focus on results, forget potential for now.
/rant
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I am not sure if all those players were terrible to root for
David Ross was a 2.7 WAR player in 2006. Belisle was one of the top prospects in Atlanta’s organization when the Reds traded for him. Daryl Thompson has good raw stuff but can’t stay healthy. Felipie Lopez was a quality prospect, Wily Mo Pena was a talented raw player, and Matt Maloney has phenominal minor league numbers.
So you are saying we shouldn’t hope that borderline major leaguers, or “C level prospects” turn out well.
There's a difference between hoping that borderline major leaguers or C prospects turn out well, and pinning your hopes of a winning season on those same players
Since 2000, the Reds have needed, hoped, prayed, that guys play above their level. The unfortunate part is that usually it’s the case where a player’s thrust into an unfamiliar position or role, and they need to be counted on when they have an unproven track record.
Or, we’ll see guys have some success in the minors, and then come up and struggle to be average. Minor league success does not always translate to MLB success.
I guess we need to improve our development of the kids, and somehow improve the overall talent level of the organization so we stop rooting for glorified role players that unfortunately get far too much playing time.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
like i always say
we’ve spent a lot of time on this blog over the last 4 or so years talking about shitty players
by 'tHan on Feb 9, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
amen!
Most guys who play ball are “average” to “below average” in total skills compared to what constitutes Hall of Fame consideration.
Most guys, in retrospect, were “bad” part of the time.
But I don’t think we rooted for them BECAUSE they were crappy.
We just think we remember it that way.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I get what you're saying
That we shouldn’t put unrealistic hopes and expectations on mediocre players, we should expect better from the front office, etc. That all makes sense.
But I don’t see anything wrong with rooting for players you know are terrible. They’re your team— you’re supposed to cheer for them to win even if you know it’s not likely. And we’ll always root for individual players for less than rational reasons. Pokey was always a favorite of mine, even though I knew he wasn’t all that great, because he won some crucial games in ’99 and played a good second base. Is there something wrong with that kind of thinking?
by the finest muffins on Feb 9, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's natural
for people, especially Americans, to root for the underdog.
And I don’t see anything wrong with it.
But then, I wouldn’t. :-)
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I think it's just dangerous for that kinda thinking to continue to be contagious
I mean I’m guilty of it as much as the next guy, if not more, so I guess this is kind of like some kind of AA meeting where I’m admitting I have a problem rooting for crappy Reds players b/c of the fact they are Reds players, and I was hoping others would want to break out of that same mold.
I guess misery was hoping to love company
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
why is it dangerous?
It’s not like we’re the GMs of the team.
We’re just fans. We root for who we got. The Reds are not going to trade for A-Rod or Pujols any time soon. That leaves us rooting for the Keppingers and Rosaleses.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
The FO needs to identify players for whom the fans can and should root
For example, it’s very disappointing to see that Francisco Cordero is the only Red with an Authentic jersey for sale, unless you want to select other players which they offer in the personalized section, but why wouldn’t they offer other Reds as default choices? Why not advertise better faces of the franchise?
Click over to Replica, and Jay Bruce and Cordero are on the only default options. Sure, you can personalize a Replica, but again, why not offer better faces of the franchise as default options?
I would think the Reds would try to force feed Joey Votto down fans’ throats. I would think they’d try the same with guys like Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, and maybe Chapman.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 9, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
interesting
And bizarre. No BP? No Arroyo? And no Votto?
I wonder how they decide which players to feature. Do they just follow along with the hot sellers? Are there monetary implications (royalties that must be paid to the player?)
However, I don’t think the FO can really control who fans root for. Lord knows the Yanks have tried. A-Rod was supposed to make the fans forget Jeter, but they haven’t really warmed up to him. Now they’re trying with Teixeira. And of course, the massive amount of Carl Pavano merchandise they tried to force on the fans became a huge joke.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
here's the rub
When I was a little kid, every single guy the Reds got was going to save the team, send us to victory, high and soaring. Ranging from Bob Thurman to Walt Dropo and every old crippled lefthander in history.
Turned out, most of them were either old, average or just fat and partly cloudy if not full of it.
But we cheered for them. Hell, we were kids. These guys were our heroes.
So what we are doing AS ADULTS is overlaying a completely different set of values on these players. Little kids as fans do not see it that way. (I attend a lot of minor league games, trust me on this one.)
Many times, casual fans don’t either. We get somebody named Gomes to play left field and we want him to help the team win. We don’t say, “meh, he sucks.”
Well, yes WE do as people (that would be the RR crowd) who take a more analytical look at the team than does the casual fan who buys a ticket, roots the Reds on and goes out for dinner and drinks after the game. Had a good time was what they got.
But nowhere in that mix did anybody establish these guys as “underdogs.” They are players on the team, expected to perform as professionals. Get a hit, field a ball, pitch it, catch it, throw it. Big leaguers.
This ain’t the Bad News Bears until years later when we had time to evaluate somebody named Gomes do we say, “man he stunk, but I was cheering for him because of that.”
So I ain’t buying the underdog part.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
force feeding
It might be interesting to see what is written in the players’ contracts about that sort of thing. Naturally, the club/league/MLB owns franchising rights to the players and their images.
But I agree that if you want to capture a new form of fan (sorry, Bubba if this sounds sexist) but these young guys can turn a lot of girls’ heads. Votto is so damned handsome, it pisses me off!!!!!
(Then again, I remember my first wife having the swoons over Johnny Bench, lol.)
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Todd Walker? He was the real deal.
Certainly no Doug Flynn
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
others
Arturo DeFrietes, Cecil Espy, Gary Varsho, John Vander Wal, Rick Auerbach, gary majewski, Dave Van Gorder, Gookie Dawkins, Jimmy Anderson, Danny Serafini, Dane Sardinha, Anderson Machado, Randy Keisler, Vic Correll and Sam Mejias.
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch
It's ES-PEE, Joe! E-S-P-Y!
“And old Ep-see has been a real Reds killer this year…”
Freaking classic!
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on Feb 8, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
If Cesar Hernandez
doesn’t make this list, then it has no meaning.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
As I interpret this
these are guys who had bad tenures with the Reds, so guys who are generally just ordinary ballplayers could include about 70 percent of anybody who ever played.
Example: Corey Patterson sucked his whole career, not just with the Reds. It wasn’t as if he had great numbers with other teams and just bad ones with the Reds.
Pete Jr. couldn’t hit .240 in the low minors.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I thought back over the years since 1956/7 when I first became a fan and came up with these names;
CF- Dick Simspon
SS – Woody Woodward/darrel chanei (toss-up0
1B – Harry Spillman
2B – Doug Flynn
3B – John Vukovitch
RF- Jim Beauchamp
LF – Mel Queen
C – Don Werner
P – Eric Milton/Mel queen (Toss-up, yep Mel started out as an outfielder and sucked, then turned to pitching and
sucked)
(Line-up placement courtesy of Dusty Baker)
Manager – Vern Rapp
Bench coach – Jerry Narron
don’t know if any of these guys will show up on the list but these are guys that stuck in my memory as Anti-greats
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
I met Doug Flynn as a kid, nice fella
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
f'ing hilarious guy
He and Bobby Wine ran Kangaroo Court at fantasy camp and those guys had some of the quickest wits I’ve ever seen in person.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I gave you fewer recs in person than I do online
but I understand, it can be intimidating to meet me face to face.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I'm an angry person
that’s why I’ve killed so many people.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
well
that and it’s the only way I can become sexually aroused anymore.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
by Slyde on Feb 9, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I truly find murder humor quite amusing.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 10, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
you're like a less sane quentin tarantino
by 'tHan on Feb 9, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
flynn was a friend of my high school best friend's dad
one weekend he came to stay with them so i stayed there that weekend, too. sat around until the wee hours listening to his big red machine stories. funny stuff.
Fantasy Camp Confidential,
unfortunately
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Show me on this doll where he was funny
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
by Slyde on Feb 10, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
If you're this funny when you get back from Fantasy Camp
please go every year.
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71
by ZJiff30 on Feb 10, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I mis-read that as Flynt
and thought this was going in another direction.
by justin007000 on Feb 10, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Mel Queen
The story I remember about him was in about 1966 or so, the Reds converted him and brought him in against the Cardinals. First hitter up for the Cards asked the Reds catcher what Queen had, and the catcher shrugged. “No idea.”
Queen owned them.
Good story.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I'm voting on Rolando Roomes
and maybe Deion. Roomes couldn’t catch a cold, and if it wasn’t straight, he couldn’t hit it with an ironing board…or so I remember. I’m old, so I reserve the right to be wrong. :)
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
You know both of those guys ended up with barely acceptable baseball careers...the guys on my list just didn't have it...not at the MLB level anyway.
Although I too remember Roomes as a bust.
'The secret to chili is you gotta have good mooseburger in there."
Sarah Palin
He is also 1/3 of Scott Rolen
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Scott Winchester was awful
Todd van Poppel, Josh Hall, Josais Mansanios (tenure is too short though, but incredibly terrible), Jeff Austin, everybody who played on the 2001 team.
Charlie Comiskey... owner?
You list Comiskey as “cheapskate owner” under “Role on the team.” He never owned the Reds. He was a player-manager, but not owner. He did own the team that faced the Reds in the infamous 1919 World Series. So unless you are saying Comiskey deliberately gave the Series to the Reds by being a cheapskate owner for the White Sox, I think you are wrong in that instance.
well if he had owned the Reds
he’da been a cheapskate.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by 


















