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Around SBN: MLB Trade Deadline: Phils, Astros complete Roy Oswalt deal

Who is the bigger liability? Miles, or Taveras?

To most Reds fans, today was the day we shed our greatest problem from last year.  I like to describe Taveras's disastrous 2009 season as "Corey Patterson, but without the power."  Come to think of it, given Junior's disastrous career in Cincinnati, you have to start worrying about curses on our center fielders....  The Reds haven't done will by their CF in a while...  

The question is, however, whether Miles is any kind of improvement over Taveras.  Let's break down the deal, starting with what we got: Aaron Miles and his $2.7 M salary, plus a player to be named later.

SHB INF Aaron Miles Offense (thanks to FanGraphs)

Year Age Team PA %K %BB %LD BABIP AVG OBP SLG ISO wOBA wRAA wRAR
2007 30.5 STL 449 9% 6% 18% 0.313 0.290 0.325 0.348 0.058 0.309 -10.4 1.9
2008 31.5 STL 408 9% 6% 21% 0.342 0.317 0.350 0.398 0.082 0.338 1.8 12.6
2009 32.5 CHN 170 12% 5% 19% 0.213 0.185 0.218 0.242 0.057 0.223 -16.4 -11.9
2010 33.5 CHONE 353 12% 5% --- 0.282 0.251 0.289 0.325 0.075 0.282 -16.0 -4.2
2010 33.5 Marcel 326 12% 6% --- 0.295 0.268 0.310 0.358 0.090 0.304 -8.7 2.2
2010 33.5 Fans 303 11% 6% --- 0.293 0.274 0.317 0.393 0.119 0.316 -4.8 5.3

Prior to last season, Miles had been somewhere between a replacement player and a decent reserve guy over the previous several years.  He peaked in 2008 with a season that was within striking distance of being league average.  Offensively, he actually reminds me a lot of a poor man's Orlando Cabrera: decent contact, very low walk rate, and not much power.  He lacks Cabrera's speed, though.

Obviously, he was a complete disaster last year.  I think it's interesting to see how the different projections treat that The Fans are the most optimistic that he will bounce back with modestly respectable performance...but then Fans tend to be an optimistic lot.  CHONE seems to pay a lot of attention to his apparent 2009 downturn season, whereas Marcel is more or less in the middle.  Overall, I'll just go with the average of the Marcel and Fans projections (though I'll use the Fans' PT estimates) and put him at roughly 9 runs below average in 303 PA's.

Star-divide

Fielding

At first, things looked ok here.  Jeff Zimmerman's UZR projections put Miles as a -1 run per season 2B.  CHONE has him as a -1 run at 2B.  But the Fan Scouting Report has him as a terrible 2B, 22 runs below average per season. Maybe some of this was spillover anger over his awful offensive performance, but my feeling is that we shouldn't ignore it.  An average of all three estimates puts Miles as a -8 run fielder at 2B.

So, overall, using 43% playing time:
Batting: -9 runs
Fielding: -8 * 0.43 = -3 runs
Position (2B): +2.5 * 0.43 = +1 run
Replacement: +22.5 * 0.43 = +10 runs
Total: -1 run above replacement--essentially dead on replacement level.

Miles will make $2.7 M next season, but is worth league-minimum, or ~$400k.  That makes him a $2.2 M liability.

 

What about Taveras and Rosales?

Here are their projections, using the same methods as above:

Taveras (52% playing time per Fans)
Batting: -10 runs
Fielding: [+7 (TZ) +2 (UZR) -8 (Fans)] / 3 = +0 runs
Position (CF): +2.5 * 0.52 = +1 run
Replacement: +22.5 * 0.52 = +12 runs
Total: +3 runs above replacement, or ~0.3 WAR

Taveras is essentially a replacement player too (maybe slightly above replacement by these projections), who probably at best worth $1 M.  He will make $4 M, however, which means he is a $3 M liability.

Rosales (53% playing time, based on CHONE & Marcel)
Batting: -4 runs
Fielding (3B): [-2 runs (TZ) + -4 runs (Fans)]/2 = -3 runs * 0.53 = -2 runs
Position (3B): +2.5 * 0.53 = +1 run
Replacement: +22.5 * 0.53 = +12 runs
Total: +7 runs above replacement, or 0.7 WAR

Replacing Rosales's projected production with a free agent would cost ~$2.5 M, and yet he will likely make right about league minimum of $400K.  This gives Rosales as a "property" a surplus value of ~$2.1 M.

 

Trade values

So, the trade can be written as:

Miles ($2.2 liability) + PTBNL = Taveras ($3 M liability) + Rosales ($2.1 surplus)

So, for the Reds to get market even value on this deal of bad parts, they'll need to get somewhere on the order of $1.3 M in surplus value with this unnamed PTBNL.  That's not a particularly tall order, so I'd guess that this deal is going to turn out to be pretty close to even.  But we'll have to wait and see who ultimately gets tapped to complete the transaction before rendering a final verdict.  

Update (update was updated again at 9pm): as several have noted (esp sidnancy), the playing time estimates I give to all of these players--typically around 50% of a season--may be overly optimistic, as none of these guys is a starter anymore.  If you drop them down to 25% playing time (~175 PA's), Miles and Taveras barely change (essentially replacement players...Taveras sees his slight positive cut, which makes him even more of a liability), but Rosales sees his surplus value cut in half.  However, this is countered somewhat by the fact that Rosales's value should have been calculated across the remainder of his foreseeable career in the majors.  That's the value shown below.

Miles ($2.2 liability) + PTBNL = Taveras ($3.5 M liability) + Rosales ($2.5 surplus)

So we're more or less back where we started, with the Reds needing a player who provides roughly $1.2 M in surplus to break even on the deal.

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will-e be that good?

The projections have him at ~75 RC+, rather than the 49 RC+ he put up last season. Marcel gets that because in 2007 he put up a (career best) 100 RC+, and 2008 was right at 75. So, if WillyT really bounces back to near his career average value, then these numbers are on.

But if, as seems not unlikely, his 3-year OBP trend continues or even levels off, he could easily be worth 15 fewer offensive runs (i.e., -25 runs), making him a -1.2 WAR player. That changes the dollar values a lot.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 1, 2010 11:45 PM EST reply actions  

Liabilities

If this is about Miles, you’d be served more wisely to see him as part of the forest instead as one of the trees.

I’m more interested in the Polish guy to be named later, Ptbnl.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 1, 2010 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, I don't see him playing anything other than third when Rolen is hurt

knowing what his 2b value isn’t helping, because outside of the days sportscasters make Dusty bench Brandon, he won’t be playing second base

by timb116 on Feb 2, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Value at 2B = Value at 3B

In the current era, players who play both positions tend to perform equally well in the field at both positions, and that’s the basis of the position adjustments.

Miles might actually be slightly better suited for 3B than 2B. His fan scouting reports are dreadful, but they do show that his “strengths” are his hands and some aspects of his throwing ability:
http://www.tangotiger.net/scout/index4.php?teamid=112&team=Chicago%20Cubs
Or not…this more or less the opposite of his 2008 scouting report, though, which stressed his first step and speed, and really hit his arm strength badly:
http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2008_SLN.html

Neither report could be described as positive. I think our best bet is to assume that he’s equally bad at both positions.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

but

Dusty still going to use him instead of Paul Janish.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 2, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not for certain

I think Dusty’s thinking on Janish may have shifted. After injuries and trades necessitated a long look at Janish in the second half of last year, I think he acquitted himself well. Dusty got to see him in action over a prolonged period of time. That means that he also saw that Janish couldn’t hit, which is why we got Cabrera (whether that works or not, we’ll see). Prior to that signing, Dusty had been lending support to Janish as his starter. I would think he’s still ahead of Miles on the depth chart. And don’t forget that Miles has all of spring training to play himself off the roster.

by Brendanukkah on Feb 2, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

During the Cabrera press conference yesterday, Jocketty specifically said he’d talked to Dusty about giving Janish significant playing time in 2010. What exactly that means remains to be seen, of course, but it’s something.

by the finest muffins on Feb 2, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

it means

we get to use a short fielder.

Ay … ay … this ain’t slow pitch!
Yah, in your nose with a rubber hose!

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

pfffffffffffffft

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 3, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

So

this isn’t the highway robbery it seems?

And C. Trent has a bunch of interesting links today.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 2, 2010 12:54 AM EST reply actions  

I don't know which I believe less

that Herschel Walker won an MMA fight or that END won a gold glove

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 2, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Taveras is easily a greater liability

Because he had at least one redeeming quality (excellent speed) that would sucker someone into playing him more than he should.

Miles has no redeeming qualities. He’s terrible in every possible way. The only way he gets any significant playing time is if the Reds are hit hard with injuries.

He can get his pinch-hitting appearances in the 5th or 6th innings and give Phillips or Rolen a breather now and then.

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Feb 2, 2010 12:57 AM EST reply actions  

Justin

As always, great leg work. One thing you didn’t have in here that clearly makes the Reds not losers on this deal is simple…. Miles is not going to be considered to start. Taveras would have been considered if Stubbs struggled even slightly in spring training. 500 PA of Taveras is a lot worse than the 150 Miles may get.

by dougdirt on Feb 2, 2010 1:02 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

That’s basically my points. Miles is going to steal at-bats from Phillips, Cabrera or Rolen if they get off to a slow start. Also, I think if someone like Phillips or Rolen suffers a long-term injury, they would bring up Frazier to see if he could handle the spot. Miles would just be a stop-gap for a few days here or there.

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Feb 2, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Dusty isn't really that dumb is he?

Miles is clearly much worse at the plate than Phillips and Rolen.

by Jake Liscow on Feb 2, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Typo, my bad

Should say Miles IS NOT going to steal at-bats from those guys

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Feb 2, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I think this is the key,

303 PAs seems like an awful lot. Justin, what happens to these numbers if you project 150 PAs?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Feb 2, 2010 7:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yep, true enough

I don’t think Taveras was either, but it’s likely that he’d get more PA’s on the Reds simply because he’s not competing with an established player in Stubbs. Miles, as you said, isn’t going to out-compete Phillips, Rolen, or Cabrera.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 8:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean, Miles may not even make the team... so...

It’s a wash, removing Dusty’s temptation to play Willy is a gain. I don’t think Rosie is going to be anything either.

by Jake Liscow on Feb 2, 2010 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

meh its a big win for the Reds anyway you slice it

Don’t have to worry about Taveras out there. Makes it seem like they have a lot of confidence in Stubbs. Reds 2010 Success still depends hugely on Jay Bruce imo.

by cokane on Feb 2, 2010 1:10 AM EST reply actions  

I think Aaron Harang can change some things too

if he is healthy and at 2007 levels, that can be huge. Also Homer Bailey is really important, was last year a mirage or the real deal? Will Scott Rolen stay healthy for a full season? Can Drew Stubbs be a major league hitter? Can the Reds find a suitable left fielder? Will Cabrera fall off the table? What will Cueto do?

A lot of quesiton marks.

by justin007000 on Feb 2, 2010 2:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm so happy

I might donate blood, plasma, and a kidney before working at the soup kitchen tomorrow!

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Feb 2, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Christina Kahrl's take sums up mine
As far as the trade, the best player in this deal is probably the one who hasn’t been named yet, because really, could he be any worse than the principals? This might be the rare instance where everybody involved in the deal gets cut before he can do anything to hurt his employer, and the loser, at least on the diamond, could be whoever plays their guy(s) the most.

by timb116 on Feb 2, 2010 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

Rosales is better than that

But yeah, I would have no problem with Miles getting cut at the end of spring training.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

you have Rosales at 3B

According to one of the SF beat writers, they wanted him because they need a utility infielder who can play SS. Does that make a difference – if he’s at SS or 2B, not just 3B?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 3, 2010 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Somewhere else in here this came up

2B = 3B by value, usually. Fielders who play both positions typically play both equally well.

Movement to SS would likely also not change his value substantially. He’d pick up a position adjustment boost, but he’d lose ground in fielding vs. the position average. On average, a player moving from 2B to SS won’t see his overall value take a hit.

This is actually why the position adjustments are so nice, as they are based on fielding differences among positions. You include it and, barring unique skill combinations that cause someone to be MUCH better suited for a position, you typically have an indication of value no matter where the guy is playing.

Exceptions at the extremes, of course. Difference between a SS and a 1B are ~2 wins per season, but if you move Prince Fielder to SS you might lose more than 2 wins. For position swaps that actually are done, however, you’re more or less covered by the position adjustment.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 3, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not saying I don't believe you

but it seems weird that 3b and 2b are equal when they seem to require such different skill sets. 3b is more First Step and Arm, while 2b is more lateral motion and the double-play pivot. If the data is there, great. But that just seems odd. Chalk one up for SABR, I guess.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 3, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Selection bias

Keep in mind that you won’t see all of the players who play 2B also play at 3B (and vice versa). This is the one problem with this approach. But among the population who do get to play both positions, they do seem to perform equally well.

Part of the reason is that fielding at 2B just isn’t as good as I think a lot of us tend to perceive it to be. In the 80’s, 2B was a premium defensive position. Not so anymore. And overall, 2B is a below-average position: equal fielding quality as 3B, but worse hitting.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 4, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

300 PAs seems excessive for Miles

I think something goes wrong for him to see more than 150, which is about what I’m comfortable with Rosales getting – and expecting about the same level of production. So I still see this as found money we thought to be lost on Taveras.

The more questionable move is giving that money to Cabrera, who may not be a net improvement at shortstop.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 2, 2010 9:56 AM EST reply actions  

Right, less playing time means less badness from Miles

I probably wont give him 300 PA’s when I do my team projection. 150-200 tops, probably.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Good analysis

But I think you’re assumptions are no longer valid. Specifically, Rosales was the primary back-up to a SS the team didn’t seem to have alot of faith in when those projections came out; with the signing of Cabrera he would have been the primary back-up for Rolen only. This is also true of Miles, and reduces his liability a similar amount.

I think the proper valuation would be:

Miles (-$2.2M) + PTBNL vs. Taveras (-$3M) + Rosales (+$1.1M), meaning a replacement-level player makes this a win for Cinci.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Feb 2, 2010 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

I have no problem with down-weighting Rosales's playing time

I was trying to stick to the same methods for each player (use published PA projections), but perhaps I should have made my own adjustments to playing time. I certainly would have not given Rosales 300 PA’s when i did my team projections (my next reds project).

If Rosales gets half of what I projected, you’re right, the deal is already even or perhaps slightly in the Reds’ favor regardless of who the PTBNL is.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

A day later

I’ve been trying to figure out this mysterious deal for the past 23 hours. The other hour, I spent doing something else. (Not your business.)

Why this deal was even made confuses me. Just getting Taveras out of town? I mean, yeah … and?
All I see is that the Reds got the A’s to not only pay for the right to cut Willy, but gave us an even-up trade and paid money for the privilege. Isn’t that what you do when you go downtown to meet ladies on the street corner?

So when you get back home, you smell like perfume, which your wife notices. That would be the Miles effect.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Obviously Beane liked something about Rosales, and was willing to eat the salary of Taveras, in exchange for us eating the salary of Miles

Who/what we get as the PTBNL will really tell us more about this deal, although I fear we’re getting that Cincinnati Reds fan favorite, Pile O’Cash, as the PTBNL.

Regardless, we free up 40 man roster spots, and then in all likelihood we’ll cut Miles at the end of ST.

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

so then

What occurred, probably:
A’s to the Reds" We like Adam. Sell us his contract."
The Reds say, “Sure no problem, but you have to take Willy.”
“We don’t need Willy.”
“Sorry, but you have to take him.”
“Oh, all right, but we don’t have to keep him.”
Reds ponder Willy’s plight. “Yeah, well … toughskie shitski.”

Other more practical solution by Oakland:
“Sell us Adam’s contract.”
“Sure, no problem. It’s a deal. Thanks for doing business with us.”

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think...

There are three parts to this deal:

  1. Taveras was useless to the Reds. If he stayed on the team, there was a real chance he’d see significant playing time, which would hinder the development of a better, younger player (despite the wishes of the GM). The only other alternative was to DFA him, which would have cost $4M.
  2. Miles was useless to the A’s. Because the Flubs threw in $1M, getting rid of him for anything at all was a positive.
  3. The A’s see Rosales as an upgrade over Miles, and he gives them more positional flexibility. To the Reds, Rosales was no different this season than Frasier, Sutton, or Valaika.

In essence, the Reds bury a problem (Taveras) for about half the money they thought it’d cost them (~$1.7M) and throw in an entirely replaceable piece to do it. The A’s upgrade their team by ~.7 WAR (assuming Rosales gets the 300 PA Miles was projected to get) for $700K ($4M (Taveras DFA)-$2.7M(Miles)-$1M(cash from the Flubs)+$700k (Rosales)).

Both teams win.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Feb 2, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Nicely analyzed.

Miles might not make the club, but I bet he does as the second backup infielder. Walt has traded for the guy twice and Miles performed well in St. Louis. Miles likely is to improve over his injury plagued 2009 and here’s betting the Reds will give him at least until mid-season to prove he can do that. If he can’t, then welcome to the big leagues one of the plethora of prospects the club has.

I liked the deal at first glance and I still like it. Even if it winds up like the Denorfia-McBeth-Jukich deal, it’s still a good move.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

do you think Walt is Dustyproofing?

That is, do you think that Walt doesn’t like the way that Dusty makes lineups?

That would be pretty interesting. In principle, Walt is Dusty’s boss, right? He can tell him not to play Taveras. If he does, he could fire Dusty… unless Castellini won’t let him.

Maybe he doesn’t want to do that for PR reasons, or because he can’t ignore sunk costs. Or maybe he doesn’t know who to replace him with. This guy isn’t dead. He is pretty old, though.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 3, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Future Value?

Why don’t we consider the value that Rosales will provide beyond 2010 into this equation? Miles and Taveras obviously aren’t under contract after 2010, but the A’s will control Rosales’ rights.

by AB on Feb 2, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That's assuming there is value beyond 2010.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Why wouldn't there be?

We are assuming that there is value in 2010 through projections. Can’t we project Rosales (granted, with less accuracy) after that? We put value on prospects. I just don’t think you can ignore that after 2010, we have nothing in this deal under contract and the A’s have Rosales. That’s worth something, right?

by AB on Feb 2, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

sure, it's worth something

it’s really hard to say what. im gonna go out on a limb and say it’s closer to “nothing” than “something” though.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 2, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not compared to what the Reds already have

The future value of Janish, Frazier and END are all superior to Rosales. We still have all three of those guys. There’s no reason to hold on to Rosales.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, but I'm trying to look at this from the A's perspective

to justify why they would do this deal.

If Rosales, is worth 1.1 mill in 2010 surplus, it’s not too hard to expect that he’d be worth that much surplus in 2011 also. It could even be more since he’s a young player and could get better, although could be less as well. Either way, just as we put a value on a prospect’s potential future contribution (which may or may not materialize), we should be able to do that here too.

I guess all I’m saying, is that from the A’s perspective, they have a higher upside in this deal since Rosales isn’t (theoretically) on the decline. It’s not far fetched for them to expect to recover any loss in value during 2010, due to this trade, in 2011 or beyond.

by AB on Feb 2, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

When you look at upside in the deal though, you have to consider what wasn't dealt

In a way, the Reds receive whatever at-bats Willy would have had in 2010 in this deal too, to give to guys like Stubbs, Dickerson, Heisey, etc. Same with Rosales’ at-bats, which will now go to Janish, Frazier, Cozart, and Francisco. Maybe I’m overstating it a bit, but this is a 2011 move as much as it is a 2010 move for the Reds. Neither Taveras nor Rosales fit in to the Reds future plans, so let’s give their at-bats to someone that does.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you BK. As always, you explained that better than I could have.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right on Rosales

It was an error to not include his future surplus value past the 2010 season. I have no idea why I didn’t. Just a brain fart I guess.

I did a quick ‘n dirty calculation, however, and it doesn’t really end up mattering all that much. The reason is that Rosales isn’t very good to start with, and isn’t expected to get much playing time. If you start applying a reasonable aging curve (he’ll already be 27 next season), he loses almost all value by 2012 or so. Might get him back up to $2 M or so in surplus value.
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I updated my update above to account for this.

Basically, we’re back where we started, but more correct this time. Two wrongs do make a right, I guess. :)

This is what I get for trying to do things late at night when I’m tired. Ah well!
-j

by JinAZ on Feb 2, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No worries

I love your analysis and really enjoy your take on these type of things!

by AB on Feb 2, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think these comparisons that rely

on straight exchanges of money for runs above replacement really break down in cases like this.

Sure, everyone needs a starter at every position, and we can roughly measure his value to the team with RAR. But when we try to assign a dollar value to each RAR, we ignore the fact that what matters here isn’t so much cost as opportunity cost. I get that RAR is trying to do that, but it assumes that a replacement-level player can always be found. In the case of players like these with negative RAR, this basic assumption is pretty well violated—since in such a context what does it mean to keep trotting out players with such negative RAR?

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 12:39 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

(sigh)

I just love it when you analyze.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear that a lot.

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think my questions

go beyond this board, maybe, but I don’t agree that if the Reds DFA’d WIlly, it would have cost us $4M. No, it would have cost us $2M. We already had his services for half the contract.

Now, if he did or didn’t play well … not the same conversation.

It’s like paying $500 for a snow blower and finding out that this winter, it didn’t snow.
The next year, you use it quite a lot. You still have to divide the cost of the machine into two parts even if you didn’t get max value out of it the first year.

Hard to compare products with people, but I read way more about the price we pay for players and how much we “save” here and there on these contracts. I don’t see it that way in real time. There’s a big pool of “money” that the team has to spend. Doesn’t matter which horse drinks at that pool.

We replaced Willy with a different player, not necessarily a better one. Stats may prove otherwise, but all the same … just a different player.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

There was $4 million left on Willy's contract

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Sooooooooooooo

Oakland just up and says, “Here, Walt, let us pick up the tab. We can DFA the guy because it’s easier when an AL team does it.”

Is that the deal?

I need a mind transplant for this one.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't have the answer for you there, unfortunately

Here’s how I see the math before the PTBNL:

Taveras – $4.0 million, Rosales – $0.4 million = $4.4 million

Aaron Miles – $2.7 million

So the A’s are paying an extra $1.7 million to have Adam Rosales on their team this year. I have no Earthly idea why.

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

now you are on the same page with me.

This entire trade should be looked at by the bankers (wait, well … let me rethink that one) … anyway, this whole thing is just

stupid.

If the Reds do better, fine.
If the A’s do better, fine.

But it’s still stupid.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

There are two things that make me happy about this trade:

1) The Reds shaved $1.3 million off payroll. (Assuming Eveland is the PTBNL)

2) I never have to watch Willy Taveras bat for the Reds again.

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

soooo

Yeah, this Polish fellow is still TBN.

It still just makes me wonder wonder wonder
A team wants to DFA a player, and the hint on these board was that Willy was probably a DFA candidate anyhow.

So rather than just do it and eat the salary, Walt calls in a bet or something from Oakland and says “here, Ted, Uehlander.”

So Beane not only does Walt’s dirty work, but pays for the privilege.
And throws in a Polish ballplayer to boot!

Nice.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Beane must think he sees something in Rosales.

Versatility? Hustle? Something we don’t? Who knows. Maybe one of his scouts really pushed for this. I suspect Walt really likes the thought of having Miles on the club, even if it’s not in a starting role. I’d love to know the details of how this deal came about. The anatomy of this apparently minor trade could be fascinating.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

holy crap,

I just thought of something.

Waddiff … the Polish ptbnl guy is

Willy Taveras? We could get the guy for free!!!

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

apparently

They think Rosales can play SS.

I assume that means they didn’t actually send any scouts to look at him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 2, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

SS, maybe

What’s the A’s depth chart look like?

(not that we can’t all look it up, but that’s been your assignment since Friday, BF.)

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I take it back

I looked at what they have listed and I think the A’s are chewing on some form of root or silicone-based product.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

A's fans aren't happy with Cliff Pennington.

Oakland claimed Steven Tolleson off waivers from the Twins, but he’s more of a second baseman. Grant Green is in the minors, but he’s not ready for the job, yet. Adrian Cardenas is closer to the bigs, but he’s more of a second sacker, too.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

they have Kouzmanoff at 3rd

Now there is your journeyman.
I know I’d buy a ticket to watch him play.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I still kind of hope for cash instead

If it’s Eveland, that’s fine, I guess he can compete for the 5th spot, although he hasn’t exactly been good the last few years. I’d probably prefer Maloney.

And I know it’s not my money, but if they got an additional $500K-$1mil, that further reduces the need to shed payroll at all this season, and Walt doesn’t enter negotiations at the trade deadline with other teams knowing he needs to drop salary. (of course, $500k may not matter much in that regard, but you get where I’m going)

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Feb 2, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you, I'd rather have a cool 500K than Eveland any day

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

so, do they

just send a check? Beane signs it, drops it in the mail … off it goes. Or do they have some kind of Visa card transfer system?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Western Union, dude

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I see

a big pile of gold thrown on the train.

choo choo.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Old Salty ridin' shotgun

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I'd rather put $500k

toward signing a draft pick than having the rights to Eveland — if that’s even a choice.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 2, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

well now, we have a debate

Is the bird in the hand worth the one in the bush?
When does a prospect stop being one? I relate to our ongoing poll for that.

Now, if you are going to get a pitcher who can’t help you, then you negate the notion that you completed a sensible trade.

In other words, try not to outsmart yourself.

But a guy with 2 years of pro experience would be maybe preferable to some high school kid, I think.

What’s a half-million get you these days?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

As Walt indicated, those two budgets are separate

but, how is a draft pick, equal to a Quad A player?

Giving 500,000 bonus to a guy who may never even make Triple A, but disdaining a finished product because he’s not CC Sabathia? That’s not the way real GM’s do it

by timb116 on Feb 2, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So enlighten us, real GM, how do they do it?

I wouldn’t exactly call Eveland a finished product. He was awful last year, and his only decent year, 2008, he walked almost 5 guys per 9 innings. He’s a soft-tossing lefty who gives up tons of hits, walks a ton, and doesn’t strike out that many.

So, yeah, I’d probably rather have the half-million.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Feb 2, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

maybe he and Matt Maloney can hang out.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Feb 2, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

on an 18 year old who most likely never makes it out of Double A?

Seems to me if there are multiple bullpen injuries, a lefty ready to pitch in the bigs might be worth something. or, maybe not.

Personally, I’d rather have a player than 500,000.

NYC, you would have hated the re-tread 90’s. Formerly good player picked up and rehabbed and made valuable. My fave was always Harnisch.

Stockpiling MLB ready arms sometime results in a nice Saturday afternoon at Yankee stadium where a spot starter pitches a great game and helps the rotation or a Justin Lehr throws a three hit shutout when the cupboard is bare in August and September.

I think, those arms have value and I know you do to, because player development not only helps those Quad A guys make a positive step, but it having them means Travis Wood can stay down on the farm in meaningless a September and continue to work with coaches.

Still, would be cool to be a GM for a moment.

by timb116 on Feb 3, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, here's where it gets interesting.

$500,000 roughly is the cost of a late-second round draft pick. For what it’s worth, Rosales was a 12th-rounder.

While $500,000 doesn’t buy much at the MLB level, it can mean the difference in signing a draft choice who dropped because of signability. It can mean the signing of a fairly promising Latin youngster. It can mean signing a few more top 10-caliber draft picks that maybe otherwise the Reds wouldn’t take a chance on.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

so then the trade

… is Eveland (or some other Polish guy) for several other Polish guys tbnl.

Now it’s a winner.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Just keeps getting interestinger

and interestinger don’t it?

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It's still interestinger

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I suppose

If you add a guy to your stable, somebody has to be replaced. Easy said, I suppose. Easy done, maybe. But there is paperwork, changing this roster, that roster. I guess they all know what they are doing.

With cash, you just open up the cigar box and throw it in there.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I would be scouring their system

for a catcher, if possible.
Unless we all believe that Yonder Alonzo is our future.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

A quick Glance at catchers in the A's system

reveals that they are as thinner than we are.
Josh Donaldson Batted 270, .379 OBP with 95 RBi, he is 25, played at Auburn, I would be shocked if we got someone this good, honestly,
An interesting gamble, Yusuf Carter (Joe’s Nephew) is 25, and hit .318 a A+ last year with only a 3/1 so/bb rate.
after that, the bottom falls out.

by Eastwindquinn on Feb 2, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I think folks missed your punchline..
Anyone have a reason the Reds shouldn’t pray they collar this kid?

Very funny. Hope that helps the others.

Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.

by snohio on Feb 3, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

It was kind of a Hail Mary attempt at humor, but I’m glad I did it.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Feb 3, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

It was funny

Especially because Excalib8 was the only one that didn’t get it.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 3, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I see what you did there (again)

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Feb 3, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

That was churchist!

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 3, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

It's ok, Mads -

Turtle is a friend of the church.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Feb 3, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

If you saw my earlier FP post...

I wouldn’t say it would cost $4 million to DFA Taveras. The cost is just however much we’d need to play the guy with which we replace him.

I’m with you, though, on being baffled by the way we traded Taveras and then they DFA’d him. I’m thinking maybe the A’s wouldn’t want it too be too obvious that they just paid around 1.5 million dollars for Rosales. Otherwise, it’s just silly.

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed but

what we pay his replacement is already established. That is either Dickerson or Stubbs, who are under contract. So we knew how much that was. Now if you get me into the economics of this beyond that comment, I am lost … just so you know. I just buy tickets to ballgames.

Now as for evaluating Rosales, there is no real proof that the guy can’t turn into the next Eddie Miksis or Willie Greene.

Or Tommy Herr.

The trade I make here is … Rosales for Miles, even up. You pay what you owe, I pay what I owe.

Then, Taveras for a Polish guy. We split the cost on that one.

That’s me, if I am Oakland.

Whoa, the Left Coast of America.
Nothing to see here, folks. Move along. Go back to your homes.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that this model doesn't take into account the opportunity cost

of each of these players. Evaluating the trade should be influenced by the practical consequences of keeping Taveras or Miles (denying a better player a roster spot and playing time). If a player’s value is negative and essentiallynull, it makes little sense to weigh their value to the team, since it’s worth more to keep them off the roster entirely.

But I do think that dollars, as a function of RAR, is still a valid way to gauge the talent of the pieces exchanged – even if it doesn’t contextualize that for each team.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 2, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

it means that managers are dumb

well, sometimes they trot out a guy that they think is just slumping, and he’s gonna get better, and then he doesn’t.

sometimes they trot out a guy they paid too much for because “you can’t leave $4M sitting on the bench.”

non-rational behavior, but freakonomically common.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 3, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Or maybe someone will claim him!

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Please let it be the Pirates. Please, please, please

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

why?

i’d rather it be the chub$. they deserve him.

by Daedalus on Feb 2, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially after all the yukking it up they did yesterday

“You got Miles! He is the suxxorz! Cubs is teh awesumz!”

Let them get Taveras, and then see how they feel about Miles.

by Brendanukkah on Feb 2, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Does this mean my inner voice is a Cubs fan?

I swear I still don’t like Dusty

There it is again!

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Feb 2, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I could see

the Flippers getting him. He would work OK in Miami.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe the Reds will claim him

It would cause this board to spontaneously combust, though.

by ptaylor2112 on Feb 2, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

If we could get him

and straight up the deal to get Corey Patterson, I say
MAKE THAT DEAL!

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps for the rate

of a late second round draft pick.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Feb 2, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Because it would make me laugh.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Janish kind of sucks

To say he’s better than Rosales. Rosales milb OPS is 120 points higher than janish.Its ery possible Frazier is obviously the better prospect, but the issue with frazier is defense and finding a position long term.

by MagicMike23 on Feb 2, 2010 5:13 PM EST reply actions  

sure Janish doesnt hit as well as Rosales

but Janish plays terrific defense at SS, and Rosales play average defense at 3B.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 2, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

sure Janish doesnt hit at all

So he’s basically an NL version of john mcdonald on the blue jays.

by MagicMike23 on Feb 2, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

And Rosie forgets to cover bases, plays too far up in the hole and

continually double clutches on throws.

Some aspects of poor defense can’t be calculated — Rosales has shown a lot of those in Cincy.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I should think you would be more tolerant

He has a truly incredible work ethic.
When he puts his mind to it.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I have nothing against his work ethic.

It’s his spaziness and inaccuracies in the field I can’t stand. If I want to see someone play defense like that — I’d film myself.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 3, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike, did you ever see Rafael Belliard play?

happened every October for like 3 seasons. He was 5’6", played like he was 5’2" and looked like he belonged in a father/son game. He got a hit a week and anchored a fantastic defense for a team bristling with pitch to contact studs (with the exception of Smoltz).

Superior defense has a LOT of value when used correctly

by timb116 on Feb 3, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

i would say its very obvious

that frazier is obviously the better prospect

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand

by saboscork on Feb 2, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

yes he is

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh Crolf, that is soooo wrong. But I laughed my ass off. A rec, sir.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

And just to point this out -- I have nothing personal against Rosales

and actually like his spaziness somewhat. I just don’t think he’s a good fit in Cincinnati — especially with Dusty as manager — and I’m tired of the moronic PETE ROSEales shit from certain members of the fanbase and the media. It’s idiotic, stop.

I’ve been hard on him the last few days, but I do wish him the best in Oakland.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

amen.

he’s one of the few Reds I could see who would be genuinely excited to meet me if I recognized him on the street. I won’t be upset if he ends up Brendan Harris’ing for Oakland for a bit. In fact, I kind of hope he does.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 2, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree too

It is the reaction of the fans that really made me disdain the guy (that and his lack of actual ability relative to other MLBers). Still, on the rare occasions things went right for him, it was hard not to be happy for him. he clearly likes playing baseball and that is something I understand and respect

by timb116 on Feb 3, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

 I saw him at Kings Island last year when he was part of some Reds promotion. He was the nicest, most accommodating guy of the bunch, staying a solid 30 minutes after everyone else (BP, Nix, and a couple others) to sign autographs. He seemed genuinely happy to be there.

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 3, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

BP reminds me of Joe Morgan

He was always there for the fans, stayed late, signed autographs…almost as nice and as friendly as Billy Hatcher or George Foster..

Is there a theme here…

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 3, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You are quick!!!

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 3, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

That's speedist!

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Feb 3, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

going green'd

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't actually think Rosie is a no-talent scrub

He’s a scrub with some talent. Namely, some pop in his bat, as backup infielders go.

But I rec’d this anyway. I have a feeling it’s going to be reappearing, whenever the subject of no-talent scrubs comes up.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 2, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Holy shit, man. You're on fire.

I just laughed so hard I snorted at my desk.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That looks like Xzibit.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ooooo

Is he the other Polish guy tbnl?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Feb 2, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

it got put in an exhibit...

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 2, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha, nice

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 2, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That's awesome

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 3, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

me thinks that deserves to be green

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Feb 2, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I've actually got Rosales

at .863 OPS in the minors.. but Frazier played the entirety of his AA and AAA seasons at the age of 23. Rosales didn’t play in AA or AAA until he was 24 and put up big numbers there at ages 24-26.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 2, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

But is it ery obvious?

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec, rec

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 2, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would this Miles guy be anywhere but AAA

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 2, 2010 8:44 PM EST reply actions  

Why, you ask?

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Feb 2, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Dudsy...strrikes again...

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 2, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he DOESN'T CLOG the BASES!!

Now that’s a professional non-base clogging hitter. Hand me a toothpick.

by occams_tiger_teeth on Feb 2, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

ahem

Australian Chewing Stick, sir.

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 2, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Make that two more please

One for jch and one for me
Hell give us the whole box

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 2, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You know what's freaking hilarious about trading Taveras to Oakland

The A’s have already designated Taveras for assignment.

Slim 15, you will be missed. RIP Chris Henry

by Danimal, Destroyer of Worlds on Feb 3, 2010 3:56 AM EST reply actions  

we know

They did it before the trade was even officially announced.

Unless they somehow get someone to trade for him, I think they’re nuts. Rosales is not worth what they paid.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 3, 2010 6:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Seems like A's tried a creative option to add players

They had money to spend this offseason. Multiple attempts at FA infielders beltre, scutaro, carroll. All w/ the reported best offers, yet turned down.

Essentially, they took on the contracts of miles/tavares, =$3million.
To get jake fox and adam rosales. Its debateable how useful or not those 2 might be but their scouts liked them enough to fill needs for that price paid.

It’s not out of the question that taveras might have some value to another team if A’s eat that remaining 1.3 mill or not especially when a shallow CF FA market consists of baldelli , endy chavez and not much else.

by MagicMike23 on Feb 3, 2010 7:33 PM EST reply actions  

uhhh

to clarify, Taveras has $4mil coming to him next season.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 3, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

to clarify

both are treated as sunk cost

miles 1.7 mill they took on, not including 1 mill from cubs = 2.7 mill
taveras 4 mill
so they added 1.3 mll which is done whether they trade taveras or release him

by MagicMike23 on Feb 3, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

2.3

the 4 mil for Taveras minus the 1.7 for Miles.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 3, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

is Denorfia still under contract with the A's?

Oakland may end up with RedsZone’s Reds Dream Team

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 3, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

no

I think he became a six-year minor league free agent, and signed with the Padres.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 3, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Mcbeth isback with the A's as milb FA

But likely no spot with bailey, ziegler, wuertz, devine and others in front of him

by MagicMike23 on Feb 3, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

It's quite possible I was Denorfia's biggest supporter on RedsZone

Living in Bristol, CT I’ve actually met some of his family. Really nice people.

by Highlifeman21 on Feb 4, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Taveras' only value to a team is as a batboy

And the values of Jake Fox and Adam Rosales is only debatable if you’re talking about them in their best positions, which for both is also batboy. Rosales wins because he sprints around everywhere like a fucking tard

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Feb 3, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

He better get started

if he’s going to run all the way to Oakland.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 3, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

more like Conan

sprinting his way across the country on his first Tonight Show.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Then being DFA's seven months later ...

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 4, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

in 10 years

we are going to look back on all this and ask a question. that question will not be “what the hell was NBC thinking?” but rather “what the hell was NBC?”

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 4, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Also, “Man, remember that Jay Leno? He was a tool.”

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 4, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Late night what?

you mean people used watch television in the evenings and into the night/

i gave it up…TIVO

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 4, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

wait!

He has hidden talents.

His favorite group is the Dave Matthews Band, and he plays their songs on his guitar.

Rosie, we hardly knew ye.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 3, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't think I could be happier about this trade

BubbaFan, you’ve taken me to undreamt of heights of joy.

by Brendanukkah on Feb 4, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

so he's every other dude from Maine West

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Feb 4, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Good Grief

Is Dave Mathews autistic?

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Feb 4, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

No but his fans are!

/Burn’d

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 4, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

BOOM!

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Feb 4, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

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