Taveras traded to Oakland!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 12:28 PM EST
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Buster Olney reporting Willy Taveras and Adam Rosales dealt to Oakland for Aaron Miles and a PTBNL. More to come.
Hard to imagine. Wow Walt! What an offseason this is turning out to be. Who would have thought this would happen. With Billy Beane, no less. Addition by subtraction? I guess this answers the question of how Cabrera will fit on to the 40-man roster. This should be a fun discussion, to say the least.
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And there was much rejoicing.
by the finest muffins on Feb 1, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I have a feeling he's OK with that
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
It's at 24 recs right now
Verka’s piece featuring the debut of El Nino Destructor had 21 recs. Unless I’m missing something else, I think this is the new most-rec’d item in Red Reporter history. And a testament, really, to just how much people didn’t like Willy Taveras.
Someone update the wiki
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 1, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Toga! Toga! Toga!
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Stop trying to make this into a music thread
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 1, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
From mlbtraderumors.com
The Reds traded outfielder Willy Taveras and third baseman Adam Rosales to the Athletics today for infielder Aaron Miles and a player to be named later, tweets ESPN’s Buster Olney. Let’s break down this bad contract swap.
Taveras will earn $4MM in 2010. The speedy 28-year-old was a bust for the Reds in ‘09, hitting .240/.275/.285 in 437 plate appearances. Rosales did not hit well in the bigs either, but he did crush Triple A pitching in 125 plate appearances. Before the season Baseball America said he profiles as a “good utiltyman.” He’s played all around the infield in the minors, and mainly third base last year.
Miles will earn $2.7MM in 2010, though the Cubs sent $1MM to the A’s as part of a December ’09 trade. Like Taveras, he was signed to a two-year deal despite being non-tendered by his former club and proceeded to have a terrible season.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions
Miles is 33
We suddenly have quite the glut of aging infielders, but I don’t even care. What a day!
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
Miles had an OPS of .466 and an OPS+ of 20. 20.
I still don’t care.
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Two wrongs make a right!
"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!"
by "Red" Moskau on Feb 1, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently Slyde isn't though.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Miles was some kind of bad last season, but
in 2007 and 2008 he was pretty darned good. He went 2-32-.290 .328 .348 in 2007, then followed in 2008 with a line of 4-31-.317 .355 .398. He’s versatile and is at least acceptable with the glove. In December of 2005, Walt traded Ray King to Colorado for Miles and Larry Bigbie.
I like it.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I see.
But, what use does he have on the Big League roster? Not that I’m against the deal, mind you, but Janish should be the defensive supersub for infielders. Do you carry 2 guys who can’t really hit for bench bats?
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
does he have any options left?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
For now, Janish and Miles make the club,
unless there is another deal in the works. Janish primarily is a defensive replacemant at SS and 2B. Miles fills in at 2B, SS, 3B and even a little in LF if necessary.
Miles had a lousy 2009 with the Cubs, but I think he can hit enough to be a useful utility guy.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
So... Janish and Miles on the team.
Sorry, Miguel Cairo. Hope you like Louisville.
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71
Yeah, Walt won a World Series with Miles
And didn’t win dick with Taveras and Rosales. I’m 100% on board with this move.
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
If this is true,
then it’s time to break this out again!
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Time to hug my children.
They told me everything would be alright.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
We should send Walt a big poster board
Signed from all of us here at RR
Start SEEing motorcycles
by Excalib8 on Feb 2, 2010 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is actually a really good idea.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 2, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Holy cow
Well, there’s our roster move. Heck, we now have an extra spot on the roster.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Do we?
Getting Cabrera put us over one. We traded away Taveras and Rosales, so that’s under by one, but we got back Aaron Miles, so the roster is full again, no?
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Unless they dfa Miles
If they get cash from the As this would make sense
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Feb 1, 2010 12:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They're already making a profit in the bargain
To the tune of $1.8M… so an additional $900K or so would even things out. But I still don’t understand getting Miles then if they’re just going to DFA… why not send Taveras, Rosales and $2.7M for a minor leaguer? Is that kind of trade not allowable?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
I guess Beane thought he owed Walt for the Mulder heist.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
that gets a rec from me
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
By "even things out"
I meant pay for Miles completely… which would allow the Reds to DFA him without a “cost” attached to it. I think the Reds probably think Miles has some upside still – or else they wouldn’t have asked after him – but he could be justifiably DFA-d with the extra cash.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
You're probably right, esp. since he's played for Walt's teams before
but if they did get 500K or so, they could just DFA him and it wouldn’t cost them much. It would essentially be like losing Rosales for the sake of losing Taveras at no cost.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Again... win, win
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Or better yet
being paid around $2M for Rosales and Taveras (if you equate Rosales and Miles’ production).
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Walt traded 2 negative value guys for a negative value utility guy
And saved us $1.8M in the process. I don’t care if Miles retires to become a priest – it’s a marvy deal.
Miles = Cairo, right?
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
I'd think Miles still has a bit more in the tank than Cairo
and hey, maybe the competition turns one of them into Jeter!
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Yankees fans
used to call Cairo the anti-Jeter, or Jeter’s evil twin. They look kind of alike. One had a good bat and a bad glove, the other had a good glove and a bad bat.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
whoa
He looks like a computer-generated picture of what Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez’s baby would look like.
by the finest muffins on Feb 2, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Miles would be great trade bait in Fall
If he batted .275/.350/.375 in 2010
Start SEEing motorcycles
I'm guessing this is a bad contract swap
both GM’s figure they will take a chance on a player who had a terrible year. It is weird that Beane took Taveras who is totally not Beane’s style.
i think that spot is for Frazier :)
You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!
by Dave from Louisville on Feb 1, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty we’re free at last..
now stubbs gets his opportunity!
EdE's defense is as smooth as the other side of the pillow
Incredible
The Reds dumped salary too? Taveras was owed $4M + Rosales @ $400K and Miles is only owed $2.7M for 2010.
If you’re looking at 5 bench spots and 3 are reserved for a backup catcher and two outfielders, then it stands to reason that Miles and Janish occupy the other two spots right now. There going to have to add a righty with some power to the roster.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 12:56 PM EST reply actions
Maybe this was in the works when Walt said they had the room to sign Cabrera
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
probably was
Trades aren’t usually made in a vacuum. There is a lot of long-term planning that goes into player personnel changes.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Must be wheels turning in Oakland, too, then.
The A’s have Travis Buck, Ryan Sweeney and Rajai Davis in the OF. They bring in Coco Crisp, Gabe Gross and Willy Taveras. Has Leatherbritches replaced Billy Beane by the Bay?
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And...
And Michael Taylor (they AAA guy they traded for this year – rated an A- by Sikels)
And Jack Cust (who may, unfortunately, get some outfield time because they traded for an equally bad fielding 3rd baseman in Jake Fox)
No way Travis Buck plays in Oakland this year… again!
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey
by JJ on Feb 1, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
The A's also DFA'd Taveras just as quick as he got there
Slim 15, you will be missed. RIP Chris Henry
by Danimal, Destroyer of Worlds on Feb 3, 2010 4:00 AM EST up reply actions
And it also seems to point to acquiring Gomes
based on the shape of the roster. Janish and Miles are both weak-hitting middle infielders.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
I hear some rumors that Gomes, Reds
… are near a deal.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Does this mean we have Gomes money now?
And I’m not speaking of the minor league salary, I’m referring to the promised incentive bonus for making the major leauge roster. BTW, did that happen already or what?
Start SEEing motorcycles
YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!
I fired up the computer and saw this, and I shouted in joy!!!
We are free of the T-Virus!!!!
Oh happy day.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
So does this
mean the Aaron Miles is Penicillin?
by fourrunhomer on Feb 2, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
So let us analyze
We get Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Armbrister AND Geronimo … and they get, who?
Sorry, but I don’t like this one, Walt. That Rosalito kid, he’s a keeper.
Seriously, if it keeps people off the ledge, this is a good deal.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Rosie is an overachieving hack.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 1, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I have but one rec to give. I wish 'twas more.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
YAYYYYYYYY!
As much man-love I had for Rosales, there couldn’t have been a better way for him to leave.
YEAH WALT!!!
"If he raced his pregnant wife he'd finish third." --Tommy Lasorda(on catcher Mide Scioscia)
I didn't like Rosales either!
Win, win.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Rosales is probably the guy the A's wanted
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
What,
did they need his chompers to build a wooden dam by the bay?
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bay Area hipsters love vampires
they’re trying to get butts in the seats
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Feb 1, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
With that nose of his, they could ditch the elephant and use him as their mascot
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
backup infielders
become pretty valuable around the end of August for teams that are trying to make a run at it.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
And the Reds have about 7 other guys who could fit that bill if need be.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
welcome to the definition ...
… small market, meat market
sellers not buyers
this is also why I like the OC deal.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
There is a God.....
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Our Walter which art in front office
Hallowed be thy name….
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
by btcoop71 on Feb 1, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, yeah.
I told you that back during the New Year’s thread. :)
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
ARE YOU SERIOUS
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 1, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
No Virus
and no “love the way Rosales hustles and plays the game the right way” comments from fans and broadcasters?
Happy day indeed
"Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan. That's good advice!"
by jmgard6 on Feb 1, 2010 1:08 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I was hoping for a release of Willy T...
To actually get something in return for him blows me away!
I’m a little sad to see Rosie go but I can live with it!
I'd like to propose a toast.
Here’s to Willy T…. sucking ass elsewhere.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions 13 recs
/getting wreck'd
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of green in this thread
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
There always are in threads like these
Good news gets green’d. The Aroldis thread(s) are a recent example, but go back and check when Patterson was let go. The first several comments are all green’d, like obc had just passed through town.
Same with Gonzo last August
yiipppeeee!
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
i know that's how i would celebrate.
Sonny my pitched my wild
by GrooveLeg on Feb 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just pooped.
This is amazing! I love Jocko!
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 1, 2010 1:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is defiinitely good
But don’t forget that Jocketty was the one that brought Taveras in in the first place.
I hope he's mad enough to quit.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
by Pops Daniels on Feb 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I'd shit solid gold!
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
I'd shit a solid gold dancer!
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Marilyn McDooDoo?
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
I would shit a life-size solid gold Billy Beane.
I have to say, we should also thank our savior, Billy Beane.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
so is his daughter
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
This also clears the way for an OF of
Stubbs
Bruce
Dickerson
and 2 of:
Heisey
Wlad
Gomes(?)
Nix
Could be a decent outfield group!
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
That group's collective OBP just went up by 50 points.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
drop Nix it goes up 25 more
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
by nycredsfan on Feb 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"What are we going to do with Miles Davis"?
Madville’d
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 1, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking they'll leave Heisey in Louisville
unless he wins the left fied spot in spring training.
He’s one of our top prospects now. You don’t use him as a bench player. Especially with Dusty in charge.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I think Gomes will sign
There’s a pretty clear need for his skills on the roster and few other suitors. If that happens, you’d think they’d be unlikely to add Heisey just to be a fifth outfielder, but that means you’re looking at Nix or Anderson.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
he'll sign
But will he make the roster? They’re offering him a minor league deal.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I'm saying he makes it
because they need a right-handed power bat off the bench. If Wlad starts in right, you’ve got Owings and nothing.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Feb 1, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
that's what we thought last year
And somehow, Darnell McDonald ended up on the roster, instead of Gomes.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
McDonald ain't in camp this year
Also, Willy was hurt at the beginning of the year, and Gomes can’t play CF. Of course, leaving Gomes in AAA til the end of May is indefensible.
was Dickerson injured, too?
Without Taveras, I’m thinking the Reds are going to want another guy who can play CF on the roster.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Heisey can play CF
from what I understand.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Feb 1, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think Heisey or Wlad wins LF
and Dickerson is the 4th OF/backup CF
Plus Heisey is an average defensive CF
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I would be happy with Heisey in LF
I just have my doubts that the Reds will do that. I imagine they’ll play the clock game, and call him up later.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I thought Heisey was all world in CF
Not saying I believe it, but that’s the word on the street supposedly
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Stubbs is the all world CF, defensively anyway
Heisey hits well, and is passable at all OF positions.
Stubbs is all world defensively
I could have sworn I read over at doug’s joint that Heisey was a poor man’s Stubbs defensively.
I still think Heisey needs another season @ AAA.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not worried about Stubbs
However, it’s the Reds’ job to worry about him, and all the players. I think they’ll want to make sure there’s a backup on the roster, and they don’t seem to think Dickerson qualifies.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
They're stupid!
Stubbs is going to set a record for plate appearances. And if he doesn’t, Dickerson is just fine in CF (don’t the numbers say that?) and that platoon would be nice.
remember last year
They put Darnell McDonald on the roster instead of Gomes, apparently because they wanted a right-handed CFer.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Pssh, that was a whole decade ago
Things are different now! Rosier, ironically.
by Brendanukkah on Feb 1, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Stubbs can't get as many PA's
with The OC making 4 outs a game out of the 2 hole.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
I was assuming 6 PA per game...
…assuming that Dustbrain will bat him 2nd (being a SS, it’s mandatory) and that he’ll get 6 PA/G due to our awskums offense. :P
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
PAs
I need to remind you on plate appearances that the hitters need to turn the lineup around. Those of you who wanted Janish in the batting order may want to rethink that notion.
U-turns at first base weren’t getting it done. Let us hope our OC experiment pays off as well.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Dickerson should start in CF
and Stubbs can be our right-handed power bat off the bench (if his power is for real)
Problem solved
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
no way
Stubbs has a much higher ceiling than Dickerson. If he’s on the team, he needs to play every day. You don’t use a player like Stubbs as a bench guy.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Especially since Stubbs is one of the best defensive CF's in the game.
We know what Dickerson can do (hit only righties and play a good OF, remember cartoons from before Stubbs was born) and can’t do (hit lefties, play a better defensive CF than Stubbs, stay healthy). Why would you limit our young stud CF to hitting only against lefties? That seems foolhardy to me.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
We have to score runs somehow
and I like Dickerson’s chances of helping us than Stubbs.
Stubbs helps us defensively. Offensively, not so much.
Hopefully Stubbs improves his OBP in 2010.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
His minor league numbers indicate that he most likely will
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Stubbs also has a lower basement than Dickerson
We still don’t know what or who Stubbs is offensively @ the MLB level, since he found his power stroke while forgetting how to get on base.
I’d rather Dickerson and Stubbs platoon, which leaves Stubbs as a viable candidate for PH bench duty.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
could not disagree more
Stubbs was a first round draft pick and has been one of the Reds’ top prospects throughout his minor league career. You don’t use a young player like that as bench player. He’ll never develop his full potential that way.
IMO, it’s not fair to judge him on such a small sample size, but if you’re doing that…Stubbs had a better OBP than Jay Bruce, and nearly as much power. Does that mean we should use Bruce as a bench player?
Dickerson has never been projected as anything more than a 4th outfielder. No way will they stunt Stubbs’ development so Dickerson can play.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Feb 1, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I cast my several votes
for Stubbs in center field. Put him there, leave him there, make him get on first base and work on getting him to third base.
After that you paint it and send it off to the Bulgarians.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
right,
and if you are going to look at small-ish sample sizes,
Dickerson last season, in 300 PAs, put up this: .275/.370/.373. Good, but not exactly world-beating.
Plus, he’ll be 28 with an extensive injury history. Not the kind of guy you bench a GG caliber CF who’s still developing (and 3 years younger) for.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
a .370 OBP is just good?
Sounds like a great number for a leadoff hitter to me
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I'm missing your point
You think Stubbs is the next best thing since sliced bread?
It seems to me that Dickerson is our insurance policy should Stubbs not be all that he’s supposedly cracked up to be. Although, I have a feeling we’ll see plenty of lineups with Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, which won’t result in positive offensive production.
Obviously I’m not sold on Stubbs, but I haven’t heard any good argument to convince me that Stubbs will be passable offensively, to go with his awesome D (which I know he does have).
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 1, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
not trying to stir up anything here
but I haven’t heard much of a good argument to convince me that dickerson is the better player. Judging stubbs on his (near) sept call-up numbers isn’t doing it for me.
I'm not judging Stubbs by his call up numbers, but rather concerned that his OBP dropped considerably as his SLG increased
If my choice is Stubbs or Dickerson leading off, I want Dickerson, b/c he’s shown he knows how to get on base better than Stubbs, whereas Stubbs needs to remember how to get on base. Stubbs has always been contact challenged, so he needs to take more walks which I’m not sure he’ll easily be able to do in the short run.
I’m not discounting what Stubbs did @ the MiLB level with his OBP, b/c that tells me that he should remember how to get on base. All I know is that Dickerson’s shown us he can get on base.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 6:00 AM EST up reply actions
How about one player suceeding int he najors, while the other has yet to
If some other guy had put up those numbers, no way NYC and Bubba would have near-religious faith in his future success. Put the name Stubbs on those number and he suddenly DiMaggio with the glove and Rickey Henderson with the bat.
Plenty of people who run these sort of analysts think he’s Mike Cameron. Certainly, that has value, but let’s pretend Drew will be a 10 time All-Star compared to a guy who did the job last season.
I think Mike Cameron is an improvement on Dickerson
at least in his prime.
In any case, we won’t find out if Stubbs is Cameron or a 10-time All-Star if he’s used as a bench player.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I'm fine with a platoon if
Stubbs plays himself into that role. Otherwise, I give him the starting gig and let him show what he can, or can’t, do. Stubbs has too much potential, and the Reds have too much invested in him, to platoon him now.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
yes it does
For a right-handed player. If he were a lefty, it wouldn’t be as bad.
And he needs to learn to hit lefties and righties.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Stubbs has the chance to be special, whereas Dickerson has pretty much reached his ceiling IMO
I have no problem with C-Dick as an insurance policy, or even as the LF until we find something better. But to suggest he should supplant a prime prospect in CF is just silly.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I agree
Stubbs has tons more potential than C-Dick….and that is taking nothing away from C-Dick.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I disagree.
Stubbs can’t lift himself up and carry himself to first after a walk, a la:
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71
by ZJiff30 on Feb 2, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What is value of this prime prospect, compared to a guy who CAN do the job
This is Rotissiere. The idea is to win games.
Besides, as usual, the rhetoric regarding the success of one of the Reds prospects is WAY overblown. PECOTA projects a 238/.322/.364 line in 400+ AB’s, i.e. the starting CF. That seems in line with his high K rate and power spike when he got to the majors. Providing he plays good defense, then a 700 OPS is doable, but to suggest he’s “special” is out of line with what he has done.
I don't remember suggesting he IS special
I used the word chance for a reason.
As far a Stubbs vs. Dickerson, what discernable difference is there besides the fact that Stubbs is 3 years younger?
My ideal situation is for Dickerson to be in LF next to Stubbs, not on the bench behind him.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Look at your comment. it's in the title
Stubbs has the chance to be special, whereas Dickerson has pretty much reached his ceiling IMO
Otherwise, I just the think the Stubbs love is crazy. I think Dickerson should be in a three man LF/CF rotation with Balentin or Gomes.
I will not discuss this with you if you refuse to see the word CHANCE in that subject line and realize the effect it has on my statement
I’m not completely sold on Stubbs either, I want to see if he adjusts and gets better. Also, I’m more of a believer in Dickerson than Balentin.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Fine. I agree with your ultamatum
Actually, jch, I was piqued by Bubba and NYC than you. Your comment just opened the door to dropping a PECOTA projection on the thread
Projections
Player A
Bill James: .267/.336/.390
CHONE: .251/.328/.380
Marcel: .272/.338/.440
Fans: .264/.337/.386
Player B
Bill James: .276/.372/.429
CHONE: .252/.348/.409
Marcel: .279/.369/.433
Fans: .275/.370/.405
For my leadoff hitter, I want Player B leading off, due to the better OBP history and OBP projections. If I want a guy to bat 6th or 7th, then give me Player A. If Player A and Player B show up in the same lineup, then Player B needs to leadoff, and Player A needs to be lower in the lineup.
That’s been my argument. I just want the guy with the better OBP leading off.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
.320/.367/.382
Would we like this guy leading off? That’s Willy Taveras in 2007. Just flinging it out there for grins.
Stubbs doesn’t have to lead off, but needs to play every day, whether in Cincinnati or in Louisville. If Stubbs starts in CF and bats lower in the order, and Dickerson starts in LF and leads off, I suppose it could be workable.
Then again, what if Heisey is the LF and leads off?
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Feb 2, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
If Heisey is the LF and leads off...
It wouldn’t surprise me if we saw MLB numbers from him similar to what Stubbs has done @ the MLB level
We’ll see low OBP and decent SLG, which IMO isn’t leadoff material
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
yes, I do
I think any team that uses Stubbs as a bench player at this point in his career deserves to be locked out of the World Series longer than the Cubs.
If they don’t think Stubbs is ready yet, then send him back to Louisville. But do not sit him on the bench.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
No, you play him three times a week. It's called a platoon, Bubba, and Casey Stengal went to the Hall of Fame using them
“ceiling” The Majors is not where you develop players. Stubbs can play and so can Dickerson. The idea is to win, not develop Drew Stubbs. if he wants the job, he can play great defense, get on base (something he did NOT do last season), and hit for power. THEN, he would deserve to get 5-6 starts per week
I don't buy it
Young players have to play every day. It may be grossly unfair, but that’s how it is: the top prospects get regular playing time, at the expense of the role-players.
And I think it’s silly to judge Stubbs on his small sample size last year.
If you’re going to do that, why not put Bruce on the bench for Dickerson? His OBP was lower than Stubbs’.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Apples and Oranges
Bruce plays RF and is THE RF
CF isn’t set in stone, or at least shouldn’t be.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think it is
That is, I think the Reds are as committed to Stubbs in CF as they are to Bruce in RF. They didn’t draft him in the first round because they saw him a bench guy.
If he’s not ready, send him back to Louisville, but do not make him a part-time player.
And now that Willy T is gone, I don’t think there’s any real competition. The Reds clearly don’t see Dickerson as a full-time player.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
If the Reds clearly don't see Dickerson as a full-time player, then who plays LF?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
good question
I think Heisey is probably penciled in for the future, but they’ll want to start him in Louisville this year, for clock reasons. If he plays well, he’ll be called up around June 1.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Right now the Reds website depth chart has Dickerson as the LF
Dickerson – Stubbs, – Bruce
With Nix backing up Dickerson, with Balentien backing up Bruce
Should prove interesting if that stays the case
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
That's horrible.
Nix shouldn’t be on our radar. He’s 13th on the OF talent chart, IMO.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
He's fine as a 5th OF
Anything more than that, and this team’s got problems (more so than they already do)
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
The Reds depth chart means nothing
Bubba Crosby was the right fielder on their depth chart in 2007 at this time of year. He didn’t even make the 25-man roster.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
If that happens, I will take you to Stadium myslef, buy you the 9 beers and proclaim my love for Andy Petitte as loud as I can until I get thrown out
the reds have at least three players who played left LAST year under major league contract and Todd Frazier. Barring a large trade or a bus accident, there’s no place for Heisey in the OF until rosters expand*
*which isn’t to say he sucks or will never be good, just that for the beginning of this year through the All-Star break, these guys, these “so what we had only 23 healthy players for a week last year, because we didn’t want to make a move” guys, won’t make that move.
Andy Pettitte
has hips and lips like a girl.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Bubba is COMPLETELY right.
How the fuck are we supposed to develop our first round players if we bring them to the majors, then only start them twice a week? That’s such a silly idea that I can’t believe you guys are even floating it.
Then on top of it, you guys are using a rookie’s partial season numbers for comparison, ignoring his minor league tendencies in favor of believing that his small sample in MLB is from what we can extrapolate his potential. That’s not only anti-sabermetric, it’s myopic and foolhardy.
What’s more, Dickerson is a passable MLB player, not a star. He’s proven that, and is already on the decline age-wise. He’ll likely only get worse. Add in that Dickerson can’t stay healthy. And that he can’t hit lefties.
Let Stubbs play, and if he doesn’t adjust well by the end of June, THEN you can discuss what is best for him and the organization, be it AAA for more seasoning or playing only against those he’ll do well against. I’m blown away that we’re actually having this conversation, to be honest.
Willie Mays started his career 0-for-12. Eric Davis started 2-for 23 with 0 HR. Barry Larkin didn’t hit his second homer until his 128th plate appearance. And Larkin had an OPS of .656 against righties his rookie year. Stubbs clearly has good potential, you have to let him achieve it. Otherwise you’re sacrificing the career development of one of our top prospects in favor of…gosh, I guess it’s in favor of trying to score a handful of more runs (which may not pay off AT ALL) and sacrificing GG defense at an important position in favor of an older, injury-prone player whose ceiling is as a platoon player. That makes no damn sense.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 2, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I'd definitely argue that we brought up Stubbs too soon
in which case he should get some more time in AAA since he clearly didn’t set the world on fire when he was down there…
I’m not using his partial MLB stats to compare anything, but to say that his OBP dropped in his limited MLB time, as opposed to his good OBP numbers while in the minors. I just want his OBP to be at least .370 if he’s going to leadoff. If he’s not going to leadoff, then I care about his SLG, which was decent to good in his limited MLB time.
And while Stubbs has the defensive edge over Dickerson, Dickerson has a big offensive advantage, so when you combine offense and defense Dickerson is the better player. I just want the better player right now, as opposed to who has the better upside (which is Stubbs).
What’s so bad about wanting the current best player playing CF?
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
If I recall
They went to great pains to bring Stubbs along very gradually. They didn’t rush him at all. I’m perfectly happy with him in CF. I don’t know if he’s necessarily the best candidate to bat leadoff, but he doesn’t do an embarrassing job there either.
His AAA numbers didn't say "promote"
Not in the least bit, IMO
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
588 PA in AAA
.269/.374/.359 for an OPS of .731. That’s not stellar. But add gold glove defense, and I’d take that from our everyday CF.
But with Willy and C-Dick hurt last year, his call-up was needed. That he did well is a testament to his ability to adapt, which bodes well for the future – assuming you don’t let him rot on a bench and fuck with his head. Why would you do that to a potential all-star for a marginal gain for one year?
And FWIW, Don Mattingly didn’t develop power until he reached the majors.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
What happened to Stubbs from 2008 to 2009 in the minors?
3 levels in 2008, and had an awesome 84 PAs @ AAA. Then 2009 happens, and 472 PAs later @ AAA he’s watching his OPS drop from .834 to .713 @ AAA. Did AAA pitching catch up to him? Did we expose his contact issues? He actually increased his BB% and decreased his K% from his 2008 AAA numbers to his 2009 AAA numbers, so what happened?
I’m just trying to understand who and what Drew Stubbs really is. I want him to be all that he’s supposed to be as a 1st Round Draft pick, and win multiple GGs, but I just want him to not be a liability at the plate, which right now he’s borderline, IMO.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
When drafted, he was touted as having "light tower power"
With that power will come some holes in his swing. While he was in the high minors, he was instructed to work more on making contact, and as a consequence, his power all but disappeared. It seemed to come roaring back in the majors last year.
You’re right, he’s a bit of an enigma, or at least not a certainty as to what we’ll get at the plate. But unlike you, I’m not worried at all about him.
Plus, I’ll look forward to having Gomes in LF to provide solid slugging numbers.
I'd be surprised if they brought Gomes back
But then again recently I’ve been wrong far more than I’ve been right.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
it's supposedly getting closer to happening.
I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71
What’s so bad about wanting the current best player playing CF?
What’s so bad about it is that you’re mortgaging the future to do it. The marginal potential gains for one year are not worth fucking up the development of one of our potential future stars. Which is exactly what you are proposing, despite the current roster being only a marginal playoff candidate.
And lineups are decided by our mentally challenged manager, not by Stubbs’ development timetable.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
Right, assuming Dickerson matches his career line so far, and Stubbs only OPSes .730 or so
with the defensive difference between the two, you are talking about maybe a half win to win difference over the course of the season, and that’s assuming Dickerson stays healthy, which he almost never has been able to do.
So then next year Dickerson will be 29, past his defensive prime, with a former #1 pick with no significant MLB experience trying to step in the midst of (hopefully) a playoff calibre team. Let the kid play. If he sucks in June, then we can talk.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
So what if he does suck coming into June 2010?
Then what?
If we’re ridden him that far, chances are we’re out of it, since we need a lot of things to really go right in 2010 to sniff the WC.
I don’t see what’s wrong with having 2010 be an audition for 2011. Lord knows we have plenty of OF to sort out.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I'm mortgaging the future b/c I don't think Stubbs is ready for MLB pitching?
Instead of letting him learn on the job for the Reds, I’d rather him play everyday vs AAA pitching, and then bring him up once he’s proven he’s ready, which IIRC he only came up last year b/c we had injuries (remember, they wrecked our 2009!)
Does if fuck up Stubbs’s development if he’s overmatched against MLB pitching in 2010 and has to go back down to AAA? Or if they don’t send him down, they just bench him? There’s a lot of variables to properly developing Stubbs.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 2, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
if he doesn't do well, I don't think sending him back to AAA with a focus on what he needs to work on
is a bad thing at all, development-wise. Saying that you’re not going to give him a shot at the majors to play an older, injury-prone platoon guy after you’ve shown some success at the MLB level is what could really fuck with his mind, IMHO.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
It is mond boggling to me...
….to suggest C-Dick should start over Stubbs….no offense.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
It is true that C-Dick is not as good offensivley as Stumps
But to say no offense is well offensive
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I said POTENTIAL star.
And that’s a moniker you can attach to any first round pick.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
Or you hope you can attach to any first round pick
As opposed to calling that first round pick a Gruler or a Howington, or a Wagner or an Espinosa, or a Larson or a Nitkowski, or an Oliver or a Mottola.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You tell'm Pete
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Bullshit
Comparing Stubbs, aka Mike Cameron, to Mays, Davis, or Larkin is ridiculous
Sickels said this in 2008
I suspect I will keep Stubbs at Grade B- in the 2009 book. We still have unanswered questions here. The defense and speed are going to carry forward to the majors. But strikeouts and batting average are still concerns, and it is still unclear how much home run power he’s going to develop. The power spike in Triple-A is interesting, though again with a 19 game sample size it’s hard to conclude that something real changed. It could just be statistical variation, though the fact that his production didn’t decline is certainly a good marker.
That’s eerily similar to what happened when he came up to the majors from Triple A.
Last year at Triple A, Stubbs OPS’s .713! How’d Milly Mays do at Triple A? Oh yeah, he never played there.
Point is, petey, the Reds have two guys who can play CF and one is better defensively and the other gets on base on a team which lacks guys who get on base. Arguing that unproven player should win the spot because he was highly drafted and the other player has less value because “his ceiling” is lower does nothing for scoring runs in 2010 and is once again the sign of giving up on a season that may or may not be worth giving up on (prior to ST).
in that vein, I found this fascinating:
Player A minor league line .284/.336/.499
Player B minor league line .269/.367/.415
Player A is Corey Patterson, player B is Stubbs before 2009’s .268/.353/.360 dropped his numbers slightly.
Hell, Corey was 22 when he was called up to the Show to play full time. Imagine what they thought his “ceiling” was?
Is Drew Stubbs Corey Patterson? Probably not. Is he Willy Mays? Probably not. Is he the second best fielder on this team in Feb of ‘10. Probably so. He should split the time and win the job. It’s perfectly possible to do. Votto did from Hatteburg. Gomes did from Dickerson. Larkin did from Stillwell.
by timb116 on Feb 3, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stillwell?
Everyone knows that he had consensual relations with Marge to get his playing time.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Um, you know she's, um, not, um, alive.....right?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
to get a MLB career, even as good as Kurt Stillwell's modest one...
I’d do all sorts of horrible things.
Unforgivable things.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
It would have to be a multiyear deal for me, with a player option tacked on
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Signing bonus money, up front!
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Did I tell you that as part of the deal you have to kiss her?
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I've kissed worse
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Feb 4, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say where...
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I stand by my statement.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Feb 4, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly
It’s not to say Stubbs won’t one day eventually be better than Dickerson, but right now he’s not.
If the Reds are serious about 2010, then they need to look at the guy for CF that gives them the best combination of runs saved (defense) & runs scored (offense). Although Stubbs has the defensive advantage, Dickerson clearly has the offensive advantage.
Unfortunately, the Reds cannot give us a lineup with both Stubbs & Dickerson in it. It’s either one or the other. Playing Dickerson in LF doesn’t give us hardly any defensive advantage b/c LF defense just plain does not matter. That’s why we can play guys like Gomes out there, and they don’t hurt us.
Stubbs is our long-term solution if he can swim, but we don’t know that answer yet.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
And we won't know that answer if he's riding the pine in the majors.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
He's not riding the pine if he's in a platoon
or if he’s playing everyday @ AAA
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
he is riding pine if he's in a platoon
If he only plays against left-handed pitchers, he’ll be playing a couple of times a week.
If they’re going to send him to AAA, I don’t have a problem with that. But using him part-time – that, I have a problem with.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Triple A
Is where you face a decent pitcher every 10 days, are in a lineup that changes every 48 hours and proves little else. You go up against a couple of AAA stiffs and you can boost your BA about 50 points in a weekend. But it’s better than being on the bench, I think.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I disagree on the every ten day thing
there are some quality guys on every AAA team. and their rotations are sometimes bolstered with developing talent from AA during the year. Stubbs would be getting valuable experience, and I’d have no problem sending him to AAA if we had a clear better option, but we don’t really.
Well way back in the old school day
that’s how a lot of young guys were worked into the lineup.
But time apparently have changed.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Some things improve over time:
Baseball player development, wine, cheese, Madville’s stool consistency, programming on the Travel Channel, Penelope Cruz, internet porn access, home coffee devices, Prius braking systems, and many other things.
I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.
Consistency
AND frequency !
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I dont have a problem with dickerson as the CF
if thats the way the reds want to go with it then fine, but send stubbs to AAA if thats what they decide to do.
What I think they should do is give stubbs a chance at the starting job. for starters, he’s paid his dues so far in the minors, they moved him a long fairly slow for a #1 pick out of college. secondly, he had some success last yr in the bigs and looks to be a possible every day starter in CF. thirdly, we’re a borderline playoff team at best this yr, I’m not saying give up on the year, but it’s much more realistic to think next year will be a better chance, we need to find out what we have in stubbs. and fourth, there is no guarantee that Dickerson hits well enough to be a starter, if both struggled, then stubbs defense would be way more valuable than dickerson’s.
and I think saying “LF defense just plain does not matter” is completely false. no its not something that’s important, but it will be a really nice advantage to have a good defensive OFers at all three spots. Do you not remember Adam Dunn?
I remember Dunn
Remember him well, actually.
His bat trumped, shadowed, undid, pick a positive verb anything his glove in LF detracted.
LFers get near, if not, the least amount of TC a year in the field, so their defensive contributions or shortcomings are damn near moot.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think his bat trumped it as well
but his defense in left kills his value, if you have a guy who can make outs more than someone else it makes a difference no matter where you are on the field. outs save runs from getting scored on you, even a small number of total chances (thats what TC is right?) are still chances and opportunities to eliminate a baserunner and/or keep a team from scoring.
I know LF def isn’t as important, I’m only saying that you can’t just ignore it.
TC does not include balls you don't get to...
…that become hits followed by a weak-ass off-line throw to second that’s four steps too late to prevent a double.
But you’re right, LF defense means little in the grand scheme, unless it’s egregiously horrific. IIRC, the St. Louis Browns in the 1940’s had a catcher with a wasted arm that they stuck out in left, and he used flexible tubing under his uniform to make a sort of slingshot that hurled his arm (harder than he could) to make weak-ass throws back to the infield.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
Can you find that story? Or do you have more info so I can find it?
Not that I don’t believe you, I just find it really interesting. Did the league not step in at some point and say “hey, no cyborgs!”?
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
It's in Veeck as in Wreck
Perhaps the greatest baseball book ever written. I can’t oversell it – it’s amazing, and only $10. And if you haven’t read it, I will pay for your copy if you don’t like it.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
I'll give it a run, thanks!
I’m currently (finally) reading The Soul Of Baseball.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I didn't compare Stubbs to those guys.
I gave examples of how even the best players don’t necessarily start out in MLB like gangbusters, while refuting HL21’s claim that Stubbs should be partially condemned for his MLB partial-season rookie numbers because they don’t more perfectly compare to his minor league trends.
I see nothing that points to C-Dick necessarily doing better than Stubbs offensively this year. Stubbs might well exceed C-Dick’s best season if given a full year. I also have no interest in mortgaging the development of our starting GG CF in the years 2010-2015 so we can play an injury-prone, less capable defensive player for the POTENTIAL advantage of less than 1 win only in 2010.
If Stubbs tanks early, we’ll send him back to AAA for some seasoning. But you gotta give the man a chance until he fails. The benefits are too great to “lay up” by starting C-Dick and benching Stubbs. There are merely negligible, arguable advantages to playing C-Dick.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
I like chris Dickerson a lot.
He may well end up in CF. But I just can’t see a higher ceiling for him than where he is now. And he’s what 38-29 yrs old(?)…The job is Drew’s lose.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I made no claim that Stubbs should be condemned for his small MLB sample size in 2009
I did, however, say that he was a completely different guy at the plate in his cup of coffee than what we’d come to expect from him in the minors.
I want to see more of Stubbs to figure out who the Hell and what the Hell he is at the plate. I just don’t think that audition needs to happen in 2010 if the Reds are truly serious about trying to contend.
And we need to stop making it sound like Dickerson plays a Gary Matthews, Jr or a Dexter Foxler, or a Vernon Wells CF to Stubbs playing like Nyjer Morgan or Franklin Gutiierrez or Rajai Davis in CF. UZR and UZR/150 shows us that there’s only marginal improvement defensively from Dickerson to Stubbs. Like I keep saying, factor in the more proven bat, and Dickerson’s a better CF option for 2010. Given we don’t have a LF, we’ll most likely see Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF which is good for Stubbs developing, yet bad for the Reds offensively.
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF which is good for Stubbs developing, yet bad for the Reds offensively.
You don’t know that Stubbs won’t out-perform Dickerson offensively as a starter in 2010.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
Nor do you know that Stubbs will out-perform Dickerson offensively as a starter in 2010
Name your terms, I’m game for a bet
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
The double cheeseburger is the only burger I've had from that joint
and it used to be good….
I do not know this Oliver Burger of which you speak.
If you want a real punishment, loser has to eat a Quatman’s cheeseburger
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
I can't believe they opened a Quatman's in Mason
Keep your shitty food down in Norwood
by Highlifeman21 on Feb 3, 2010 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
I ain't flyin' to Cincinnati to eat shitty food.
But I do miss a lot of the food from back home.
"I'm going to be sore, no doubt about that." - Slyde
by PeteyHendrix on Feb 3, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the Menu from the Norwood location
$439 for chicken liver is a tad high…
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
The side of the page cut off the mock turtle soup
What gives, Maddy?
"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin
by BK on Feb 4, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I do not know...
This menu however looks like it was originally put in place circa 1962…only the prices have changed.
BTW
It is time for another RR BBQ fest…too bad Squatman’s doesn’t offer any…
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
It's coming soon, look for a fanpost tonight
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
by jch24 on Feb 4, 2010 9:36 AM EST