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The Bruce contract extension: another look

Now that we've worked up the Arroyo extension, let's turn our attention to Jay Bruce's new contract.

Hitting

Year Age PA BB% K% AVG OBP SLG ISO BABIP wOBA RAA
2008 21 452 7% 27% 0.254 0.314 0.453 0.199 0.296 0.328 -2
2009 22 387 10% 22% 0.223 0.303 0.470 0.247 0.221 0.329 -1
2010 23 573 10% 27% 0.281 0.353 0.493 0.212 0.334 0.363 17
ZiPS 24 598 10% 23% 0.269 0.340 0.495 0.226 0.313 0.358 13
Oliver 24 531 9% 23% 0.266 0.334 0.492 0.226 --- 0.354 10

Bruce had two phenomenal months to close out the season last year, and it's the reason his 2010 line looks so much better than prior years'.  Remember when people were talking about demoting him in July? :)  By end of year, he posted the best rate stats of his career.  For those last two months, he was the Jay Bruce we'd all dreamed of.

Star-divide

There's a fair bit of disagreement between the two projections. I'm kind of skeptical about the ZiPS projection--it looks massively low considering what he did last year, and is below what you'd get with a simple average (which seems inexplicable to me given his age). But I'm very biased when it comes to Bruce, and I want this to be a fairly conservative projection, so I'm going to go with the average of the two projections: +6 runs in 74% playing time, or +8 per full season (we'll deal with the playing time adjustment later).

Right, so, when we use the actual 2011 projection, and not his 2010 projection as I did initially (see scratch-out above), we see that ZiPS is actually quite bullish on Bruce--moreso even than Oliver.  Averaging across the two, they project that Bruce will produce 11 runs above average in 81% playing time, which extrapolates to 14 RAA over a full season (we'll deal with the playing time adjustments later).

Fielding

Here are a few estimates of Bruce's fielding skill:

Fan Scouting Report: 2nd best RF in baseball last year, estimated +9 runs above average (or +11 per season)

Avg of Career UZR/DRS: +15 runs above average per season

nFRAA by Colin Wyers at BPro: 54 RAA +/- 12 runs...so conservatively, +42 RAA?  Umm, that's 51 RAA per season.

To me it's clear that Bruce is a complete badass in right field.  But how much of a badass is a reasonable projection?  I'm inclined to go with +15 runs above average per season looking forward.  Given Colin's number, that could be radically conservative.

Other factors

Position: we typically use a -7.5 RAA adjustment for playing a corner outfield slot, as the average RF is a below-average fielder overall.

Replacement: In the National League, we generally use +20 runs per season as the difference between average and replacement.

Playing time: Bruce has a history with injuries at this point, but his nearly full season last year helps his projection.  The projections have him at an estimated 81% playing time based on past years and typical averages.

Overall

So +14 offense + 15 fielding - 7.5 position + 20 replacement = 43.5 RAA * 81% playing time = 33 RAR, or a projected ~3.5 WAR player. 

Obviously, there are large error bars on everything here, but I've tried to be pretty conservative to combat my fanboyism.  For example, if you assume +20 RAA fielding, which is not beyond reason, you can push him to being a true talent 4 WAR player. FanGraphs says he posted 5 WAR last year, so we're not into unreasonable territory there.

The Contract

The Reds are paying Bruce $51M/6 yrs, plus there's an option for a 7th year at $13 M.  He was a super-2 this offseason, and so he gets four arbitration years.  Arb players make well over the minimum, but typically some fraction of their free agent value; I'm going to use 20%/40%/60%/80% of arb, which is a standard estimate that usually works pretty well.

Here's a schedule that matches that contract:

Year Age $/WAR ArbDscnt WAR Payout
2011 24 $5.0 20% 3 $3.0
2012 25 $5.4 40% 2.7 $5.8
2013 26 $5.8 60% 2.4 $8.4
2014 27 $6.3 80% 2.1 $10.6
2015 28 $6.8 100% 1.8 $12.2
2016 29 $7.3 100% 1.5 $11.0
Total



$51.1

Obvious question: why assume aging when Bruce is just 24?  Mostly it's projecting injury risk, not skill decline.  If he gets hurt significantly at some point during the contract and misses an entire year (for example), he loses a lot of his value.  If this looks too conservative for you, that's fine--it means his contract looks even better.

...Because look at that first year.  3 WAR?  We projected him as a 3.5 WAR player!  Here's a schedule that matches a 3.5 WAR projection for 2011:

Year Age $/WAR ArbDscnt WAR Payout
2011 24 $5.0 20% 3.5 $3.5
2012 25 $5.4 40% 3.2 $6.9
2013 26 $5.8 60% 2.9 $10.1
2014 27 $6.3 80% 2.6 $13.1
2015 28 $6.8 100% 2.3 $15.6
2016 29 $7.3 100% 2 $14.7
Total



$64.0

So based on the projection above--which I think is reasonably sound and not overly optimistic--we can reasonably project that a fair market value contract for Bruce at this point would be ~$64M/6 yrs.  The Reds essentially got a $13M discount, based on a reasonable, average projection of what Bruce will do (and be worth) moving forward if they paid him year to year.

Why would Bruce do this?  Probably because this contract makes him set for life.  The Reds moved early enough that they are able to deliver what is still a ridiculous payday (to normal humans) while he was still making "slave" wages.  If he gets hurt and never plays another game, he still gets the $50 million.  And while, on average, a player with his skills and past performance might be expected to net more than this going year by year, Bruce only has one shot at it--and by giving up 20% of his projected income, he gets a the security of knowing that he's guaranteed to earn $50 million over the next six years.  I'd take that, and so would most of you.

On the Reds' side, there is that risk that he gets hurt. And there's risk that he could underperform and not be worth this contract.  But this deal not only gives them cost certainty--it arguably gives them the potential to reap significant savings.  On average, it should net them around $13 million in savings.  But if Bruce does better than we're projecting--maybe puts up another two or three 5 WAR seasons--the Reds stand to have a spectacular asset on their hands.  I'm thrilled to see it happen. Kudos to the Reds for getting it done.

Note: I unfortunately used the wrong ZiPS projection in the initial version of this post.  The revised, correct numbers result in (surprise!) a difference in the analysis that stems from it.  My apologies for the error.  Apparently, as my wife will attest, I can't do anything right... /jinaz

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ZiPS for Jay Bruce, 2011-2016:


Year PA BA/OBP/SLG WAR
2011 594 269/340/495 3.4
2012 593 267/342/501 3.5
2013 603 263/341/499 3.4
2014 602 261/342/500 3.5
2015 591 260/342/503 3.4
2016 578 260/342/505 3.3
-—————————————————
20.5

ZiPS doesn’t really see any growth left (though obviously, projections in every field are smoother than real life), but has him pretty stable throughout his 20s.

At $4.5 million a year for 2011 and 5% increase a year, 20.5 wins from 2011-2016 would be worth about $106 million on the open market.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 17, 2010 8:33 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, oh, runaway pre tags! I do that enough on BTF, now I might be HTML infecting others!

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 17, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Never mind, SBNation’s software actually closes tags, it appears. Now laugh at the doofus talking with himself.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 17, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

First line, projections in every field are smoother than real life.

Second line, the cut-off number is $106 million.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 17, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, I was referring to win value on the FA market.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 17, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, did you come up with the Zips formula?

In that case, I disagree with its projections of Bruce.

by jsl413 on Dec 17, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh crap.

I don’t know how I did it, but I used the wrong flipping ZiPS projection! Dan, everyone, I am so sorry. Somehow I used a ZiPS 2010 projection. This will change things!
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 17, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

And....

Turns out the real ZiPS projection is more optimistic about Bruce than Oliver, though they’re basically telling the same story.

Nothing like picking on a projection that is a year old for not including the most recent season data. Brilliant.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 17, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Any chance you can give us the text (not the preformatted projections again?

both lines are cut off, like my jorts.

It does seem strange that his slash lines are virtually identical from year to year. I can see a system being cautious about him not breaking out, but to flatline at 24? Is that normal?

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Dec 17, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I was wondering this too

I was going to say the same thing about the age regression. It’s hard to believe a 24 year old can be projected to regress a half WAR per season, simply because of injury risk? Seems overly cautious.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 17, 2010 10:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm only going 0.3 WAR per season

I’ve seen this discussed before, and 0.3 WAR per season does work pretty well for a young player like Bruce—on average. Some never get any better. Some get hurt right away. Some keep getting better. On average, 0.3 WAR aging seems to capture the pattern.

^^But I haven’t really confirmed any of that personally. Obviously, if aging is less severe, the contract keeps looking better and better for the Reds.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 17, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Still, this is my issue with projections, especially spun out over extended years for a single player

I realize that, considering the vast number of players who have played the game, and averaging out the likelihood of stagnation, injury, breakout, etc., it comes to about .3 WAR regression.

Still, that doesn’t mean that applies to every single player. It’s kind of like car insurance. When I was a 16 year old boy with my license, I was statistically a huge accident risk and thus payed high insurance. I’m now 31 and have never been in a wreck. (I actually probably drive crazier now than then. Stupid NYC drivers)

I realize you have to do what actuaries do, in that you have to look at Bruce’s demographic and apply broad statistical principles thusly. But to judge the value of a 6 year contract for an individual player based on what every 24 year old has ever done seems a bit impractical.

Not criticizing yours (or Dan’s) work at all. I really enjoy reading it, and think it’s really useful. I just find long term projections really unsatisfying.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess my take is...

“you have to use something.” If you’re the Reds or Bruce’s agent, you need to have some baseline to work from. You can use all 24-year olds, or some subset of them most similar to Bruc,e and come up with an aging curve.

I haven’t looked into aging curves much myself, and there’s disagreement on what to do here. Dan’s giving very little aging at all on the Bruce. Brian Cartwright at the book blog last night posted something similar to Dan’s (though lower projections, for some reason) with little aging, so I could well be wrong about this.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2011_pre_season/#99

Again, the main point I’d make is that the less aging you apply to Bruce, the better this contract looks for the Reds. So Yay.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 18, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I get that you have to use something

It just seems counter intuitive that a 34 year old pitcher is only given a .5 WAR decline in his projections, while a 24 year old hitter is given .3 decline.

At the end of the day, you’re right. If he’s healthy, it doesn’t matter and the deal looks great.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Unrelated, the Nats are going hard for Greinke.

Grienke, Strasburg, whatever prospects they manage to keep (Zimmerman[s]?), Werth, Harper .. in 3 years.. is the plan? Too much rebuilding/win now at the same time.

by jsl413 on Dec 17, 2010 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

I have no problem with them spending now

As long as it doesn’t hurt future team chances (which the Werth contract probably does). But trading prospects for short term gain seems silly right now. I dunno, maybe they think they’ll get a nice attendance spike if they get up to .500 or something.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 17, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Post is fixed.

Sorry people. I’m a dork. Those who have read me since 2006 know it’s not the first time I’ve done something dumb.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 17, 2010 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

This is exactly what I want to hear.

Soooo, I’m going to assume that it’s accurate. ;)

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Dec 17, 2010 10:58 PM EST reply actions  

If Jay Bruce stays healthy

He will be a top 25 player- WAR 6 and above.
If he is healthy 4 War season is the worse case scenario.
A year after his wrist injury- his isolated power skyrocketed. And this fall you had the first glimpse of the real Jay Bruce skill level. Gold glove defense +15-20 runs- power- fully expect years with wOBA around .400.
Hes going to be a superstar and this was a great contract for the Reds.

by davidmac84 on Dec 17, 2010 11:32 PM EST reply actions  

I hope you're right

I think saying that a 4 WAR is the worst case scenario is a bit optimistic. But Bruce certainly has the potential to do anything.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 18, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

"Kudos to the Reds for getting it done"

If he’s not really a +20 defender (more like +15), and his offense was babip inflated to some degree, do you think the Reds would’ve been better off waiting another year? Seems like they might be buying high here.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Seems reasonable to me too...

but if you accept that Bruce is a true-talent 3.5 WAR player (as JinAZ argues), isn’t signing him after a babip-fueled 5.3 WAR season, when you already have him locked down for four years, a somewhat questionable thing to do? Seems like the OP paints a picture of a team buying high, but then doesn’t make the final connection.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if he is a true talent 3.5 WAR player (which is debatable)

that’s his true talent as a 23/24 year old. There’s no reason, apart from injury, to think he can’t improve on that as he ages. But even if he is worth exactly 3.5 WAR for the life of the deal, that’s a total of 21 WAR, assuming no 7th year.

At the current rate of $5mil/WAR, they’ve only paid him for just over 10 WAR for the life of the deal. So they are basically paying him half of what he can be conservatively projected to be worth.

And as for BABIP, it was only .334. His BABIP in the minors was never under .345 in a single season. His LD% was over 20% and his power seems to be back. I don’t really see a huge reason for pessimism on his offensive numbers.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, that assumes no inflation, which is unlikely

Even if a Win is only worth $6 mil by the time he’s done, he’s still provided a TON of surplus value (barring injury, of course)

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

'creds, do you buy the whole "Bruce isn't going to get better" bit of the projections?

I’m really struggling with wrapping my mind around a 24 year old getting worse every year.

by jsl413 on Dec 18, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

It's possible.

Like I said above, I think long term projections are really difficult to measure, so to say what Bruce is going to be when he’s 27 or 28 seems really difficult at this point.

Shoot, even if you look at the different projection systems for this season you can get a wildly differing view of certain players (although it is interesting that both Oliver and ZIPS are almost identical on Bruce)

I guess what it comes down to is do you think Bruce’s crazy struggles to start last year matter as much as his torrid August and September of 2010? We fans tend to remember Bruce from the last two months and discount last year, whereas the robots tend to put a lot more stock in total production of the last 3 years.

To be fair, though, no one is saying he’ll get worse. The WAR decline is simply because of possible injury. (Which is a whole different issue…read above)

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think projections are supposed to be the "most likely" result that I think some people think they are.

It’s not a crystal ball: It’s more like a weighted average of all possible results. So, no, there’s not a huge chance that Bruce is going to get slightly worse, every year of the contract, but for each year you project into the future there’s a greater chance that he’s going to get (going to have gotten? I hate weird tenses) really hurt and be worth nothing. That weighs the projection down.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Dec 18, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

This.

People have to take into account uncertainty and skewness risk. It’s even worse with pitchers – if you have a pitcher throwing 200 innings of awesome, whether he’s 21 or 31 or 41, you have to expect him to throw less, and worse.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Dec 18, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you make ZiPS give you percentiles?

This is a weighted average — I’d be interested in the shape of the OPS probability distribution over the years.

Presumably, it’s not entirely gaussian. Under a constant injury level assumption (i.e., assume he doesn’t get injured for his whole career), his performance is probably a gaussian (with relatively small width). But “got significantly injured” is more of a discrete variable than a continuous one. So, I’d expect the distribution to be multi-modal, with peaks around “got major injury in year 1”, “got major injury in year 2”, etc.

Of course, there is a continuum to injuries as well, but I bet “time lost due to injury” is not a normally-distributed variable — probably log-normal, but that’s just a WAG. My intuition is that there’s not enough independent draws from the injury probability distribution to push the whole career performance back into a single gaussian.

But what all this means is that for a young player with high potential, long term mean projected performance may not come even close to telling the whole story. If I didn’t have a job and two kids, I’d try to rigorously inject error analysis into sabermetrics. As it is, I encourage you and Jinaz to do that!

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Dec 18, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not going to get worse...

over the life of this contract…

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Jinaz paints a picture of a team buying .. right?

If Bruce performs at his expected floor and doesn’t improve at all going forward, the contract is still good for the Reds due to inflation.

by jsl413 on Dec 18, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I get what you're saying, based on first principles, buying high on anyone is non-optimal for the team.

But I think the projections show that we aren’t really buying high in the absolute sense, which is why I feel good about it. I also think that the projections here are pretty conservative.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Dec 18, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

The obvious comps are Tulo, Pedroia, Wright, and Upton...

So far Wright has had some extreme ups and downs, but overall the deal has been a win for the Mets

Upton slumped and will be making more under his contract extension than he would have if the D-Backs had gone year to year.

Pedroia and Tulo have been out about 25% of the time they’ve been under contract, but they’re awesome when healthy – both the Sox and Rox have saved money relative to going year to year.

It looks good for the Reds, but it’s not a slam dunk.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a pretty huge assumption on Upton

he’s had 1 down year. What if he bounces back and posts 4.5 WAR the next 2 years again?

Otherwise, it’s pretty obvious that the only way this is not a slam dunk is due to injury, which is the risk in all long-term deals. Which is why he’s only getting paid half of what a conservative projection says he’ll be worth, if healthy.

Unless he suffers a major injury in 2011, waiting a year would have done nothing but made the deal more expensive.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 18, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Presumably...

they could’ve inked Upton for less now. His value is lower than it was after 2009. That has to be the consideration with Bruce. He was worth 5.3 WAR in 2010. Is he going to match or surpass that in 2011?

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, on the block.

Obviously there are more valuable prospects like Strasburg, Heyward, et al.

by jsl413 on Dec 18, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

But again, the fact that he is so attractive in a trade means that the deal on Upton is still viewed by other clubs as a very good deal. Even after a down year.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 18, 2010 7:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Right, sorry

Was reading on my iphone while watching kiddos, thought it was someone replying to someone else and not you replying to yourself.

Because who replies to themselves anyway?
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 19, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not his contract that makes him attractive...

it’s the fact that baseball players are slave labor for their first three years and have their wages capped in years 4-6. These kinds of contracts should be analyzed relative to the variable, performance-based contracts they would receive through the arb system, not what their value is on the open market.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 19, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Slave Labor

Oh, those poor souls, forced to play baseball for only half a million dollars per year. You’ve almost got me crying.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 19, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you're missing the point, crolfs.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Dec 19, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I just chose a different one.

Besides, while he makes a good point, he still said that baseball players are slave labor.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 19, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and call it hyperbole.

He’s just saying the value to the team is that the player has no freedom to contract to play for who he wants, for the fair market value of his services. It’s a pretty small point.

"there no countrey called west xylophone" Youtube

by andromache on Dec 19, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

exactlly...

Forget slave labor… just saying these kinds of extension always look great b/c they look great compared to FA deals. The Reds already had Bruce locked down to four year deal with pay based on performance.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 19, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what I did above.

But when we’re talking value to a team, the important thing is how much performance can you get out of a guy compared to how much it would cost to replace him—either in free agent dollars or equivalent dollars in trade. That’s why the Upton contract is a good one—he makes a lot less throughout the contract than he’d cost to replace—and there’s still a good chance that he will make less than if he went year by year through arbitration.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 19, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a slam dunk

But if you do this deal 100 times, it favors the team a majority of the time. Some smaller percentage of the time it just breaks even. An even smaller percentage of the time it is a loss.

Teams like the Reds need to make smart investments. Deals that will typically not just be fair, but result in them paying less than market value for a player are exactly the deals they should be making. There is some risk to any contract, but smart organizations make these kinds of deals. Ideally they make number of these deals, and the risk is spread across all of those contracts (like an insurance company).
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 18, 2010 8:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

On BABIP...

You are probably aware of this, but please remember that BABIP is far more repeatable for hitters than pitchers. Bruce’s has been sort of all over the place during his career, but I don’t tend to get too worked up about anything from .280-.330. ZiPS projections have his BABIP at .313 next season, which is not at all unreasonable. Bruce’s 2009 BABIP looked unusually low. But his 2010 BABIP was really only a tad high.

Hell, Joey Votto’s career BABIP is .353. Granted, he’s a very different hitter, sprays the ball all over the place with good opposite-field power, whereas Bruce is a dead pull hitter at this point. But still, Bruce is plenty strong and hits the ball hard. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bruce top a .300 BABIP again next season.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 18, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Given his numbers on Fangraphs...

I get an xbabip of 303 for 2010. His actual babip was 334. His career mark is 290. If we count everything over 310 as luck (at this point in his career), his actual luck-adjusted line was something like 260/330/460. Still quite good, but noticeably less valuable. Given that Walt doesn’t give a rat’s ass about babip or any other post-RBI stat, I have to think those final two months, when Bruce was posting babips near 400, may have unduly swayed him.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 19, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know that it's a given that Walt doesn't give a rat's ass about post-RBI stats

But if you’re making that assumption based on his age, well that’s pretty closed-minded and ageist.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Dec 19, 2010 10:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I lol'd, then came

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 19, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

TWSS

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 19, 2010 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

holy crap

Can this be true?

Report: Brewers Acquire Zack Greinke

A source informed me earlier today that the Milwaukee Brewers have come to a preliminary agreement with the Kansas City Royals for a deal that would send pitcher Zack Greinke to Milwaukee.

The rumored agreement would send shortstop Alcides Escobar, center fielder Lorenzo Cain, and right-hander Jeremy Jeffress to Kansas City in return for Greinke, shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt and approximately $2M.

The extra $2M is to offset a portion of the $31M that would come to Milwaukee in the trade. Coincidentally, Betancourt’s buyout for the 2012 season is $2M — so that number could make a good deal of sense, if the Brewers have no intention of keeping the shortstop.

I had been told that the Milwaukee Brewers were originally informed that they had “no chance” of landing Greinke during the Winter Meetings, but that could have changed significantly once Greinke went public with his demands to leave the Royals.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2010 6:15 AM EST reply actions  

Apparently so

Here comes Milwaukee. Greinke, Marcum, Gallardo is roughly on par with Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, when you consider relative age/upside.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 19, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

interesting

that it was apparently a fan blog that broke the news. At least one of the Brewers beat writers was unable to confirm the news hours after the “Bernie’s Crew” blog reported it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

The Brewers' offense just got worse

They are gonna miss those two guys. Not to mention what it’s gonna do to them defensively.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Dec 19, 2010 11:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think they'll be fine on offense..

They still have Fielder, Braun, Weeks, Hart, McGehee.. Pretty damn good top 5.

by jsl413 on Dec 19, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

The real Prince is larger than life

"Men today are pussies or gay" Aja Warren

by Madville on Dec 19, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

They are going to miss Alcides Escobar on offense?

No, Yuni is probably going to be better offensively. And they will miss Lorenzo Cain on offense? Maybe, but only because they might have to play Carlos Gomez. Or if Dickerson stays healthy, they won’t lose that much.

Defensively, they lose a lot at SS, no denying that.

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yuni is a terrible player

worse than OCab.

Dick and CarGoninho are badass, though

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I find it hard to believe that Escobar and Cain would be enough for Grienke.

I don’t know who Jeffress is. Unless he’s a top-20 prospect in baseball…. um…

by jsl413 on Dec 19, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

And apparently this report was right except the Brewers shipped 2 prospects, not just Jeffress.

Unbelievable that this is all it took. I feel like we could have done Heisey, Yonder, LeCure and Boxberger..

by jsl413 on Dec 19, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

We didn't have the money

It sucks, but probably true.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 19, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

This is not a "steal"

Oh, God. Garrison is singing on my radio.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Dec 19, 2010 11:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Garrison Kieller ?

Quick turn it off or shoot yourself whichever is quickest. That fucking old drunk is deranged.

"Men today are pussies or gay" Aja Warren

by Madville on Dec 19, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Olney says Odorizzi and Jeffress. Yikes!

System’s best position prospect and best pitching prospect. Seems pretty steep.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Dec 19, 2010 11:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Odorizzi is in A ball though

He was a long way away. Escobar’s bat played like shit at the MLB level last year, so who knows what he’ll end up doing.

I dunno who a decent comp for Odorizzi is for the Reds, something like a slightly better DoJo?

by jsl413 on Dec 19, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Odirizzi is a starter

I think Johnny Cueto upside, maybe more. No one really comparable in our system.

by kcgard2 on Dec 19, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

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