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Cliff Lee back in Red

It's hard to feel anything other than abject hopelessness and fear as a Reds fan, sitting on the sidelines as the Phillies signed Cliff Lee to a deal two years and $28M shorter than what the Yankees offered. Aren't there natural forces that prevent this kind of thing from happening? Why does the team that the Universe already afforded the rare chance to assemble  this same monster rotation last offseason, that already missed its chance to extend Lee, then shipped him off to Seattle, get him back for less guaranteed money than both 2010 AL finalists? Say what you will about the "Bankees" or the "Rangers with Candy," but big Junior Circuit money has often been useful for keeping talent from concentrating in the NL.

On hearing about the Lee's surrender at Amaro-mattox, my frostbitten brain made a knee-jerk connection to Lebron's Decision to go to South Beach. The Reds never had any skin in this game, but with a hasty mention of Lee's time in Cleveland and a facile comparison between Halladay-Lee-Oswalt and Wade-James-Bosh, you too can feel just as aggrieved as a Cavs fan. Make no mistake: the Phillies have a legitimate claim to having assembled the greatest rotation of all recorded history, including other kinds of rotation: the one the Earth does, med school, crop rotation. Based on trends in  FanGraph WAR - and, one would assume, CommonSenseThinkinAboutThings WAR - Dave Cameron sez:

If there’s a four-man rotation that has ever looked this dominant heading into a new year, I can’t find it. It is almost certainly in the discussion for the greatest four-man rotation of all time.

It's certainly an intriguing spectacle for the sport. And beyond reverting to rally cries of "that's not fair" and "do over," there's not much recourse.  Lee gives the Phillies undisputed supremacy in starting pitching, though it's clear that Jayson Werth's replacement is unlikely to fill what  could be a 4-5 WAR hole left by his departure to Washington.

The Reds figure to play the Phillies eight times next season. So there's a possibility all eight games will come against one of the BIg Four. Barring injuries, there's an 80% any given game will be against Halladay, Lee, Oswalt or Hamels and only a 4% (assuming independence) of seeing a non-Big Four starter twice. During the regular season, this translates to the Reds facing an ace in one or two additional games, rather than a Joe Blanton or Kyle Kendrick. During the playoffs, this possibility of not facing the three or four best of the best (depending on whether its a divisional series or NLCS) is nill.

If the Reds aim to stay competitive this year, their road to the World Series just got more likely to lead through Philadelphia again. And staying competitive means having to reckon with front-line starters on every club. The Reds were an elite offense last year, but their deficiencies were exposed in a short series. This could be potentially compounded by regression from Rolen and others, while being alleviated by improvements from Bruce and the young upstarts. But the bar has been raised for contending clubs. The Lee signing puts an exclamation point on the sentence that says the Reds need another bat if they hope to take a step beyond beating up on the middle of the pack. Though it's been fun having the extra lunch money.

One practical effect of the Lee signing is that the Phillies appear interested in lowering payroll by moving Joe Blanton  or Raul Ibanez. There's probably no interest by the Reds in either, but Ibanez becomes mildly interesting if the Phillies are willing to eat a good portion (how about all?) of his $11.5M salary next season. He hits righties well and isn't quite the butcher Gomes is out there.

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I think their trifecta

should read Lee-Halladay-Oswalt

"When you chart (the plays) and see where it broke down there was no common theme to it." - Bob Bratkowski

by featherman on Dec 14, 2010 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Even though it's an absurd space for argument

I have to disagree. Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I was basing my order

on the names similarity to Lee Harvey Oswald

"When you chart (the plays) and see where it broke down there was no common theme to it." - Bob Bratkowski

by featherman on Dec 14, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I think all four pitchers

are capable of 20 wins.

"When you chart (the plays) and see where it broke down there was no common theme to it." - Bob Bratkowski

by featherman on Dec 14, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I think, i was higher on the Cubs staff going in to 2004 than the Phillies staff going in to 2011

Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement, and Maddux. At that time there was no reason to believe that Wood, or even more so Prior’s arm would blow up, and those guys (except for Maddux) where all young.

After Chapman puts it together, Volquez gets his shit back together, and Bailey figures it out, we will have the best rotation in 2012, the talent is all there. If something happens to Arroyo, the Reds could have a rotation where Wood’s 93 MPH fastball makes him a soft tosser.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

To the extent that this move ratchets up the arms race in the NL

I think it’s pretty important to keep Chapman on the starter path. With Greinke now the only ace-caliber prize out there – and next offseason is slim pickings on the free agent market – there’s no choice but to optimize the rotation internally if they want to keep pace. Chapman starting this season could help keep the Reds from playing Twins to the Phillies’ Yankees.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

and I honestly think with the top end potential of Chapman, Volquez, Bailey, and Cueto, the Reds have the talent to have a comparable rotation.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Talent, maybe. Proven excellence, hardly.

And don’t forget Leake, who I still firmly believe will be the best of the bunch.

It is profoundly unlikely that all our young guys will peak at the same time. But if even a couple have a Bruce-ian GREAT LEAP FORWARD, we’ll at least be in the conversation.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

"At that time there was no reason to believe that Wood, or even more so Prior’s arm would blow up"

That’s it. Crazy things happen. I’m really not too worried (especially about Oswalt).

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 14, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

honestly

i wouldn’t be too upset if Cliff Lee blows out his arm and is a $120M shell of him self. Nothing personal, but I feel pretty much the same about every outrageously paid pitcher.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Reds? Best Rotation in 2012?

You were drunk when you wrote that, weren’t you?

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 17, 2010 7:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Any word on whether Lee didn't go to the Reds

because he didn’t want to take the rotation spot from his AR buddy Boss TWood?

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 14, 2010 2:54 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Might as well give up now

The Phillies have a rotation that can’t be beat; the Flubs and Cards and Mets spend so much more money. There’s no way the Reds can compete!!!! Bob might as well take his bananas and go home. This season, and every season through the next century, is already lost.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 14, 2010 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

//Cubs'd

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought you were above the reductio ad absurdum(b), sid

This is pretty clearly the best rotation in the majors and one of the best ever assembled. Nowhere do I make the leap to suggest that this somehow hands them the WS, only that it makes it more urgent that the Reds get another bat (and probably get Chapman making starts in AAA again) if they want to fare better in a playoff series against the Phils next time around.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't really change the calculus much

during the regular season, but it’s hard not to see the Phillies, and to a not-too-lesser-extent, the Giants, as gatekeepers with the playoff rotations they command.

Last year’s Reds had a 1.16 ERA against Halladay, Lee and Hamels in 33.2 regular season IP and got 0 runs across in the playoffs against Halladay and Hamels. If those three come up in a series, the Reds aren’t necessarily cooked – but they’ll have to find a competitive edge they didn’t seem to have last year. That will come almost entirely (or entirely) from young players currently in the majors or close heading in the right direction. I’m optimistic, but cautiously so.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

er, Halladay et al. had the 1.16 ERA against the Reds...

Cliff Lee sucks I guess is what I’m trying to say.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a long season

and a just-as-long off-season.

The Phillies have just paid a ton of money to Lee, much more than he’s worth (only if you totally accept fWAR and completely ignore bWAR does he even approach this value). I don’t think this signing is a significant upgrade – the Phillies are still the class of the division (a division we don’t compete in), and I’d be shocked if he’s as good next year as the “big 3” all were this year, so it won’t affect the playoffs either.

Meanwhile, their offense is going to be atrocious. Ruiz is coming off a career year, Howard is good but not great, Rolliins has turned into a pumpkin, Werth is gone, Ibanez will be 39, Polanco isn’t that good…really, the offense is going to be Utley (who’s great), Howard, (who’s good) and smoke and mirrors.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 14, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

"atrocious" is strong

They scored the second most runs in the league last year. The offense will decline for some of the reasons you gave, and the loss of Werth will certainly hurt. But they will still be above average.

by ken on Dec 14, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I stand by it.

Werth’s replacement won’t come near a .388 OBP or .532 SLG; Ruiz won’t sniff a .400 OBP. Realistically, they have 2 guys who’ll get on base at a decent clip – Utley and Howard.

No one on their roster is likely to improve on last year (Victorino was the youngest regular; they had a total of 88 PA by position players younger than 28), Polonco, Ruiz and Ibanez are likely to decline – their top sub was Wilson F. Valdez, who had a career year with an OPS+ of 79!

It will be atrocious, especially for a $170M team.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 14, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

they're making a big run

But that team might be bad, Houston Astros bad, in two years.

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Their remaining guys, as a whole, will decline since they're all in their 30s

That doesn’t mean that each and every one of them will. Going into 2010 you wouldn’t have expected the career year from Ruiz, for instance. In 2011, Howard could have a rebound after playing with an injured ankle for a lot of last year.

They’ve been first or second in the league in runs for at least the past five years. Declines on a team level aren’t typically that sudden. Still, by 2013 I can see them struggling if Brown doesn’t develop and they don’t get any reinforcements.

by ken on Dec 15, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Sheeeeeeee-it

It ain’t no thang.

While we can’t hope to match that rotation, even if all our youngins reach their respective upsides, a lot can happen during the season. At least one of their guys is likely to miss significant time due to injury, and once they trade Blanton, they won’t have much of a safety net.

As far as I’m concerned, the Phillies are the Mets/Marlins/Braves/Nats’ problem until we face them again in the post-season.

And this time it won’t be in a short series.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

Cmon

Chapman- Volquez- Cueto- Bailey – Big Wood- Leake

or Halladay-Oswalt-Lee

I’d go with our younger guys over the older people.

"Why not just throw an empty glove down at the shortstop position, it would be cheaper and have better range." - justin007000

by OGC Reds on Dec 14, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Hamels is a bum

"Why not just throw an empty glove down at the shortstop position, it would be cheaper and have better range." - justin007000

by OGC Reds on Dec 14, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why I love this site

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Annnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd Green'd

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 14, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Chapman is better

"Why not just throw an empty glove down at the shortstop position, it would be cheaper and have better range." - justin007000

by OGC Reds on Dec 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

Lest we forget

the Phils had a better offense last year, and threw Halladay/Oswalt/Hamels at the Giants…

…and lost.

I still think the thing people should be freaking out about is how the Giants have Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez/Bumgardner for (literally) about a hundred times cheaper.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 14, 2010 3:11 PM EST reply actions  

Indeed

Anything can happen.

The game isn’t played on paper.

[insert witticism]

[insert platitude]

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Just ask the Bengals!

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Dec 14, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I watched it

and that still seems hard to believe.

by ol Pete on Dec 14, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure how I'd feel about this if I were a Phillies' phan

Is this the best use of resources? They already had probably the best rotation in the league. They just lost Werth. Polanco will be done soon. There’s little chance that they’ll get the same production from their catcher. Howard will be a DH only soon. Utley has seemingly turned to glass. How many more games will they win because Lee is the starting pitcher rather than Blanton?

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Dec 14, 2010 3:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Somehow I doubt many Phils fans are upset by this.

Of course, if their offense goes in the tank (please please please) and one or more of those golden arms turns to shit… well, I’m sure Philly fans will understand. They seem to be pretty reasonable and forgiving folks.

Joe Blanton WAR -.07
Cliff Lee WAR – 5.3

That’s a pretty big difference.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't really matter in the playoffs.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Ummm....

If you’re an opposing team (the Reds, for instance), who would you rather face?

A Cy Young winner or a Pie Eating Competition winner?

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I call shenanigans

There is no way you can tell rhubarb from strawberry (or raspberry or cherry, for that matter) simply from the stain.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep it up and they might make you a mod

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

but

the 4th starter may get two starts. Maybe. You can also adjust you rotation to use three starters, and have them pitch on three days rest.

Lee isn’t a playoff game changer, he does significantly improve the phillies already good chances of making the playoffs though.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

You're assuming that Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt will all be healthy and on top of their game come playoff time

There’s a good chance that one of them could be injured or in a serious decline (cough, Oswalt).

The Phillies are also better off without having to use starters on 3 days rest in the postseason. Having Lee is a pretty big advantage. Probably more than having Werth.

by ken on Dec 14, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

They'll be good...

But 5 years is a long time for a man already in his 30s.

by steazy on Dec 14, 2010 4:42 PM EST reply actions  

Man, that's a wake up call

I’m cashing out the 401k pronto. Fireworks, heroin – here I come!

by ken on Dec 14, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

40's is the new 30's

Don’t be in such a hurry! Start with sparklers and vicodin and work your way up from there!

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

looks like the 401k could use an audit

I’d stick with a private investor and my savings until I saw any serious improvement from the retirement fund.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 14, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Firstly, I think they're the Miami Heat of baseball now.

But anyways, how much will it really help them in the playoffs? Is Halladay-Lee-Hamels-Oswalt in the first four really THAT much better than taking Lee out of the equation and going back to Halladay for Game Four?

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Dec 14, 2010 4:54 PM EST reply actions  

vs. the Reds

I think Halladay, Lee, Hamels is a better slate. And it’s a question of depth. One of those four could go down and they’d still have a murderer’s row.

My point about regular season vs. postseason is that there’s no chance of squeaking by with a match-up against Kendrick or whoever. If healthy, it’d probably be HLH, all three of which have been poison for the Reds. I’m mostly just trying to cram this signing into “how does it affect the Reds” prism.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 14, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I just had a thought....

One of my patented, impossible to verify gut-feeling scenarios:

Is that mound big enough for all four of those guys? Will Hamels (I assume, but maybe Oswalt) be ok with being a 4th starter?

Perhaps egos will flare up and clubhouse discord could ensue. Any of those guys could be the #1 on (at least) half the teams in MLB.

by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 14, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

why not?

He get to pad his wins pitching against #4s. They still get to pitch every 5th day anyway. And guys will typically relent to moves that greatly increase the team’s chances of success.

by kcgard2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't think they really care

it isn’t like one of those great starters will be going to the bullpen, and after the first week of the season it really doesn’t matter, who the ace is and who the 5th starter is.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Dec 14, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

well,

Cole Hamels is alright with a 3rd, why not a fourth?

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 14, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

our HQ is at Two Libery Place

I got a tour of the Residences. They are beyond nice.

Price tag is too

by Highlifeman21 on Dec 17, 2010 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

The reds would need a ton of luck to be beat any combination of their starters in a short series

a TON. It would help if our cleanup hitter wasn’t completely broken down by playoff time as well. But only a little.

by kcgard2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Are we ready for an acronym MORE annoying than H20?

How about R2C2?

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 6:02 PM EST reply actions  

And yes, I've seen it used already

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

idgi

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 14, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Roy, Roy, Cliff, Cole.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Great pic if you're a Phils fan

[IMG]

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 8:40 PM EST reply actions  

That's dumb

That’s two Roy Halladays and no Cliff Lees.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 14, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Lee is 2nd from the right

34 is his old Phillies number. Halladay wore it this year. It will be interesting to see who gets it next year.

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

... Then why is his glove on his right hand?

I think it goes Lee, Hamels, Halladay… Halladay again?

Is Oswalt missing?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

And by right hand, I mean left hand.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

No... That's Oswalt on the left...

Holy shit! He’s a lefty now…

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm

So

Confused

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I think some photoshopping may have been done on Lee

to get him facing the right direction

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

And Oswalt too

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

all of which makes Charlie right

STUPID PICTURE!

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

you can clearly see that Oswalt has been turned around

the script on his uni reads, "seil…

You're never as bad as you look when you lose. You're never as good as you look when you win.

by JasperRed on Dec 14, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he's just a confused nazi?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Actually.

They probably just got mixed up with the whole “switching sides” thing, being in Britain for that photo.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 14, 2010 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

and they put the "44" on his jersey backwards!

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 15, 2010 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait, didn't Gomes win the boxing tournament?

As it looks now, come October, the two most awesomest baseball teams in history will meet in GASP for the Big Chamolean, the right to take on the Orioles for the Series Champeenship of all the Land.

Who wants the ball?

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 14, 2010 9:18 PM EST reply actions  

From what I've heard, Johnny Bench

"He’s like if Ron Gant and Eric Davis had a white baby." -- GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Drew Stubbs

by jch24 on Dec 14, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I just thought of something

This is the first season that I’ve ever been compelled to give a shit about what the other teams in the NL are doing, and how it affects our path to a pennant. Shit, that’s cool.

"Aroldis Chapman is a seven course meal followed by four hours of sex on the table with a nymphomaniac model heiress who owns her own brewery." - jch24

by BK on Dec 14, 2010 9:57 PM EST reply actions  

I find myself hoping everybody ...

who is any good either retires or gets traded to the AL

I figure if we get to the W.S., we can do a Bill Bates/Joe Oliver/Billy Hatcher routine and laugh like pigs all winter.

But I hear ya.

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 14, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I was thinking about the same thing.

It really sunk in when I read this post talking about how this will affect the Reds in the playoffs. A few years ago I could have cared less what the Phillies were doing.

"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428

by sexsalad on Dec 14, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

When was it ... probably a year ago ...

… we were debating if the Reds had the horses to finish .500 or if they needed to be really bad enough so they could fire Dusty and really make a change.

Actually, that was in March.

Signing minor league depth was a pretty big deal to me in 2008.

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 14, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a thought from a devil's advocate

We are each, to a degree, troubled by the Reds’ (read: Walt’s) inaction thus far in finding upgrades at LF and SS.

Is there a chance that he’s being realistic/pragmatic here? Does he see, as we hint at above, that the Phillies (and, to a lesser extent, Giants) have a momentary peak coming up? Does he therefore reason it’s not in the team’s best interest to blow a wad of money in a thin and inflating market for what is likely to end up a repeat of last year?

I can see him being strategic in planning to bank increased ticket revenues from next season for a big signing in the 2011-2012 offseason. He could be thinking about the money that’s freed up when Cordero comes off the books next year. All his creative contract moves (backloading Rolen/Arroyo/Bruce/Chapman) could just be a play at standing pat until all the pieces come together and the prospects pan out, more than likely after 2011.

In other words, maybe don’t mortgage the farm when everyone’s forecasting a drought this year.

by OHSnap on Dec 15, 2010 3:11 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think he's "tanking" on the year as you are implying

But I do think he has established a plan of building the team around young, good players, and he’s sticking to that. This team is good because he didn’t trade away prospects over the last 2-3 years, and now those players are the core of the team. To trade away the next wave would jeopardize the long-term viability of the team, and I think he’s unwilling to do that.

Also, I believe him/Fay/everyone else that there just isn’t a lot of money to spend.

Also, I think he is more optimistic about the team’s offensive projections than we are.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 15, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

He seems pretty committed to that strategy

which, besides the obvious value of retaining cheap young talent, also has the benefit of covering injuries well – the third-string spot starter is Matt Maloney – and the unexpected breakout, in which a B prospect starts playing like an A, at least until the league figures him out.
 
I promise not to keep hammering on this, but while I agree there’s not a lot of money to spend, there isn’t NONE. If they pass on Rhodes, they have enough to do something, but it has to be just right. I think Walt is being cautious and exploring the back channels. If they want to bring back Arthur, they can’t lowball him at $2.5M while flagrantly looking around for ways to spend twice that on a LF. There may not be a player cheap enough and good enough to fit their needs, in which case it makes sense to sign Rhodes and call it a day.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 15, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, as well

I think the general “look” of this team is where the modern GM wants it to be. It’s marketable, by and large, to a demographic of new fans who are more likely to make the GASP more user-friendly for 30-somethings.

There’s a blend of guys like Arroyo and Gomes who appeal to certain fans, others like Votto and Bruce … still another. Rolen, another. Etc, etc. The point is, I think Walt and his staff are probably looking at the sort of players who will project in a community that has been skeptical of the team’s motives over the years.

You have to market the soul of the team, and this team will likely thrive or dive on its traditions of building from within. The trick is to identify them, sign them, etc … and make sure they get their 20 minutes of public face.

We saw a few of them — Leake, Valaika, Heisey, Chapman, Yonder — and the Reds fans finally have a good feeling that these guys are going to lead us to the Promised Land without writing checks we can’t cash.

A little long-winded, as usual, sorry, but I do subscribe to the theory that winning in the restricted free agent market is do-able, because you have to first capture the fans’ faith. I’m there with that. We don’t need Cliff Lee to win.

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 15, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

We especially don't need Cliff Lee's contract.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 15, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I really like reading Fangraphs

because they use stats to start the conversation, not to end it.

That said, I loved this piece about the 2011 Phillies. It’s remarkably unscientific: “Well, Utley’s getting hurt these days” and things like that, but he pegs the Phils as a team at +50 WAR. The Reds last year came in at +49 WAR.

These signings are all hardly end-all be-all. The Braves should be the most concerned, but I doubt they’re just giving up, either.

"College actually kind of beat that out of me, making me more, well, of an asshole."

by Cy Schourek on Dec 15, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

First, I’m not at all troubled by the lack of action on a LF or SS. The past couple of years have taught me that I can’t guess what Jockety and Castellini have planned (Rolen, Gomes/Hernandez last year, Chapman, OCab).

Second, I think that his plan (like others have said) is to build a long-term winner. I think he sees this team as not quite there yet, and rightly won’t mortgage the future (whether in dollars or talent) for a 1 or 2 year run.

Third, I do think he may be waiting out the market much like he did last year with LF.

Finally, Bruce’s contract isn’t “backloaded” in the traditional sense. He’s making more in the final years because those are free agent years being bought out.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 15, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

nah, i dont think a GM should ever be thinking like that

Shouldnt really be paying attention to how the teams are doing outside of the division. GM should just be trying to put the most competitive team out there to get to the playoffs every year. Micromanaging and planning around the playoffs is hubristic and unnecessary.

by cokane on Dec 16, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm a Phillies fan...

…but the Reds would have won that series if not for the errors. If I were you, I wouldn’t be so worried. We (the Phillies) are still injury prone….

…and without binoculars, we’re not that great of an offense

by Ant$ on Dec 15, 2010 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

FTFY

….but the Reds would have won that series Game 2 if not for the errors.

Halladay and Hamels absolutely owned them, and Halladay probably would’ve done so again had it gone to 4 games.

You are kind, but the Phils pitching was just too much. So I don’t think people are worried, per se, but I definitely wouldn’t want to have to face you in a 5 or 7 game series again.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 15, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I still think the Reds coulda won game 1

Not saying it was a guarantee, but I think it could have been a very different game if Slo-Cab doesn’t make that not-ruled-an-error-but-Janish-would-have-got-it mistake in the 2nd that let 3 runs score.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 15, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

ah, you go crazy on the waddifs.

I recall Game 3 of the 1961 W.S., when the ball dropped in front of Robby in right field. The Yanks won the game 3-2 in one the Reds could have taken. After that, … pfft … but the ones that get away, yeah, you wonder. No-hitters aside, if it’s scoreless after 7, do the Phils make a move?

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 15, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure that even if Cabrera makes that play

the Reds would’ve needed at least 1 hit to win.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 15, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Or as they said back in '59

… gotta learn to scatter them hits, Harvey.

I trust this organization. I trust this organization. I trust this organization. -- Justin

by johnu1 on Dec 15, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

well, not necessarily

Walks and errors could do it, theoretically.

But I think having that big lead made it a lot easier for the Phillies, and a lot harder for the Reds. IOW…I think they may have gotten some hits, if they were only down 1-0 instead of 4-0, and I think Halladay may have had to work harder if he was defending a one-run lead rather than a four-run lead.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 15, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, this.

I know it’s hindsight and all but Halladay was completely locked in. He wasn’t getting touched that night.

by ken on Dec 15, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. And even if they were a bit more dialed in due to a 1 run deficit instead of 4

that means they actually get a runner to second, probably nothing else.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Dec 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, he was dialed in, no doubt.

but he also threw about 20 “strikes” that didn’t touch the plate.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 15, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

eh

He got a couple of gifts, but it wasn’t outrageous:

Follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Dec 15, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

How often are those borderline strikes actually called strikes?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Dec 15, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

and I disagree

I think they could have gotten to the pen, if he weren’t cruising with a 4-run lead.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 15, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear ya

But I don’t think the ’27 Yankees could have gotten to the ’pen on Halladay that night.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 15, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps

I suspect even the Pirates might beat a team from ’27. Different game, a much more limited population providing players, etc.

But no-hitters owe a lot to chance. And I really think the Reds were playing “tight,” and it would have been a lot easier for them (and more difficult for the Phillies) if the game weren’t out of reach in the 2nd.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Dec 15, 2010 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

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