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Compare & Contrast: A superficial glance at Starting Pitcher

Position: Starting Pitcher

2010 Innings breakdown: Bronson Arroyo - 22%

                                            Johnny Cueto - 19%

                                            Mike Leake - 14%

                                            Homer Bailey - 11%

                                            Aaron Harang - 11%

                                           Travis Wood - 11%

                                           Edinson Volquez - 6%

                                          Sam LeCure - 3%

                                          Matt Maloney - 1%        

2010 Composite pitching line (over 32 starts):

W

L

ERA

GS

CG

SHO

IP

H

R

ER

HR

BB

SO

HBP

WP

11

9

4.05

32

1

0

190.7

188

91

86

22

63

139

7

5

WHIP

BABIP

Opp BA

Opp OBP

Strand Rate

xERA

1.317

.284

.254

.319

72.2%

4.07

2010 Composite NL average starting pitcher pitcing line (over 32 starts):

W

L

ERA

GS

CG

SHO

IP

H

R

ER

HR

BB

SO

HBP

WP

11

12

4.05

32

1

0

189.3

189

93

85

20

65

146

6

6

WHIP

BABIP

Opp BA

Opp OBP

Strand Rate

xERA

1.340

.291

.256

.321

72.2%

4.09

2011 Contract status:

Arroyo - $11M team option

Cueto - arbitration eligible (1st arb year)

Leake - not yet arbitration eligible

Bailey - not yet arbitration eligible

Harang - $12.75M team option

Wood - not yet arbitration eligible

Volquez - arbitration eligible? (1st arb year?)

LeCure - not yet arbitration eligible

Maloney - not yet arbitration eligible

Advanced minor league depth:

Matt Klinker - age 25, 3.79 ERA at AA, AAA

Daryl Thompson - age 24, 3.48 ERA at Rookie level, AA

Scott Carroll - age 25, 3.36 ERA at High A, AA

Tom Cochran - age 27, 2.81 ERA at AA, AAA

Travis Webb - age 25, 4.63 ERA at High A, AA

Ben Jukich - age 27, 3.90 ERA at AAA

Chad Reineke - age 28, 3.91 ERA at AAA

Relative win increase, 2010 vs. 2009: +2

Brief summary of 2010: You know how when you commit a serious crime in somebody else's house, and then you want to leave the crime scene looking like nothing really happened, but then you want to make sure the room doesn't look too perfect, because the cops will probably pick up on how something doesn't seem quite right?  That's pretty much how the Reds' starting pitchers operated in 2010 with respect to the league average.  If they got any closer to average, we'd probably start to get a bit suspicious and want to take a DNA sample. 

What's interesting and encouraging to me is that the starting staff, as a whole, didn't improve through injury reduction or pitching longer into games: The Reds used nine different starters for 962.7 innings in 2009, and they used nine different starters for 965 innings in 2010.  If we get more granular, there are other things that cancel each other out between the two years: Bronson Arroyo is Bronson Arroyo in "Constancy".  Aaron Harang basically filled the role that Micah Owings held last year, that of "has it been five days already?"  And Homer Bailey, net for net, probably held his value pretty steady over last year, as did Edinson Volquez in limited time each year.  We'll even call the bit players a wash: trading Kip Wells and Matt Maloney's spot starts from last year for similar outings from Maloney and Sam LeCure this year probably didn't do much for changing the team's fortunes. 

We're left pointing, then, to a hot youth injection of Mike Leake, Travis Wood, and Johnny Cueto.  Cueto pitched last year, of course, but he took the all-important Next Step Forward.  Leake and Wood combined for 241 innings, which is pretty similar to the 227+ innings provided by Harang and Justin Lehr last year, but the effectiveness was about a full run better per nine innings.  Leake/Wood is simply a more talented combo at this stage than Harang/Lehr, and they accounted for roughly ¼ of the starter's innings, and this was basically the difference between the two groups.  Simply put, it's a testament to the depth of this team's roster that the various injuries and ineffective stretches that always happen did not destroy the team's pitching effectiveness.

Way too early knee-jerk outlook for 2011: As noted above, this team has youth on its side.  Harang has certainly pitched his last innings in a Wishbone C, and Arroyo will eventually stop being so damn dependable.  One name not yet mentioned in this profile is Aroldis Chapman.  He throws fast pitches.  Barring a trade, the Reds have seven viable rotation candidates heading into the spring, which for Dusty Baker will be a nice but consequential problem to have.  With the possible exception of Travis Wood, all of these options have bona fide pedigrees, being high-ranking prospects or draft picks at one time or another, and all Wood has done is pitch well at every level he's faced.  Young pitchers are to fickle as election cycles are to interminable, but I think you have to look at this group favorably heading into next year.

Bottom line: Despite the encouraging signs, this is still a volatile group.  The staff has talent, but lacks (as of yet) a true ace that can act as both stopper and playoff intimidator.  Although gains have been made in this area, the group still strikes out fewer batters than average, which can become a significant problem in a home run friendly environment.  Still, for all the caveats: Leake disintegrated as the year went on, Volquez missed the first four months, they might add a guy who throws 174 mph, and their worst pitcher is gone.  There is room for growth here, possibly in a big way.   Buy, and save the receipt.  Some day you'll want to tell your grandkids about that one time the Reds had a promising young pitching staff.

Poll
Starting Pitching in 2011?
Strong Buy
98 votes
Weak Buy
89 votes
Hold
30 votes
Weak Sell
11 votes
Strong Sell
1 votes

229 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 70 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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cross Jukich off that list

We won’t have the Seoul-Sucker to kick around any more.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Losing him makes me sadder than it should...

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Nov 4, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seoul-Sucker is funny

I don’t think he will be missed even a little bit.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Nov 4, 2010 1:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Wait...

whatever happened to Micah Owings, anyway? I remember him being DFA’d, I think. But then… was he outrighted to the minors? Did somebody else pick him up?

by the finest muffins on Nov 4, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I think he was put on waivers but nobody picked him up

So he was outrighted to Louisville

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Nov 4, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

he ended up in Louisville, IIRC

He wanted to be traded, but no one was interested. He cleared waivers and ended up in Louisville.

I think that means he can become a six-year minor league free agent.

I believe that’s true of Daryl Thompson as well. He’s not on the roster, and he’s done his time in the minors. He’s a free agent now. As is Reineke.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe you are correct

He is a minor league free agent according to BA

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Nov 4, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Thompson is a free agent...yet.

Since he’s playing for the reds in the AFL. I think it’s a sign that the Reds are going to hold onto him a while longer.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

They must have re-signed him then

They could still lose him to Rule 5 if they don’t put him on the roster.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I gave it a weak buy

I was torn between hold and weak buy but figured the youth of the pitching staff is a definite plus while the lack of a top of the line starting pitcher is keeping this unit from being a strong buy.

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Nov 4, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

i went strong buy for one simple reason:

105mph.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 4, 2010 10:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I hear it being said by the movie trailer voiceover guy

“This summer, major league hitters will come face to face with something they’ve never seen……..ONE HUNDRED FICE MILES PER HOUR. This ERA not yet rated.”

"just a couple of weeks ago a first year student in my program told me i was charming and charismatic, it was a guy, but the point still stands.: -- justin007000

by jch24 on Nov 4, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Perfect

It also doesn’t help that I can’t type.

"just a couple of weeks ago a first year student in my program told me i was charming and charismatic, it was a guy, but the point still stands.: -- justin007000

by jch24 on Nov 4, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wood was a 2nd round pick and AA pitcher of the year, right?

That’s a purdy dang strong pedigree, bigger than Cueto and his 99 cent signing bonus out of the DR, if ya ask me…which I know you didn’t. Once again, great breakdown though.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 4, 2010 10:20 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Agreed. I don't think pedigree is an issue with any of the young starters.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Nov 4, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't follow the minor league stuff too closely

but I seem to remember a lot of skepticism around Wood’s MiL numbers through the years. That’s the genesis of the pedigree comment.

by riverfront76 on Nov 4, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wood

For some reason, his velocity dropped off after he was drafted. Not sure why, but that might be why there was some skepticism. He also had some injury problems.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was lights out his first pro season

and pretty good his second year. But then he struggled with control and injuries the next two years and people lost hope in him. I think many assumed he was another in the long line of injured Reds pitching prospects. However, when he’s been healthy, he’s been very good. And I think as long as he can stay healthy, he should be a viable middle of the rotation option.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Nov 4, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the other hand

Many of us thought he should have at least been on the ballot last winter for the top Reds prospect. But RR said noooooooooo.

by Brian B on Nov 4, 2010 5:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

yeah, I was a bout to say...

but Wood hasnt thrown minor league no hitters like Cueto

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Nov 5, 2010 4:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't seen it linked yet round these parts, so I'll link it

Now Jocketty is saying Chapman might go back to the bullpen to start the year.

He’s pretty non-commital, saying it’ll depend on how things shake out in ST, and they view him as a starter long-term.

Still, this was my fear with moving him to the ‘pen last June, and it remains my fear: If he’s not quite polished as a starter, and you never give him time to gain that polish, he’s destined to stay a reliever forever. I’m really worried that they are going to just keep chucking him in the bullpen while saying “we see him as a starter long-term” and before you know it he’s 25 and hasn’t started in 3 years.

And before everyone jumps on this, saying he’d be a great closer, that may or may not be true. But even if he’s Mariano Rivera, he’d have WAY more value as a starter, but I’m afraid we’re not going to ever find out.

I hope I’m being needlessly reactionary.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Nov 4, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions  

yeah

That’s my concern as well.

Mo may be a great closer, but the reason he’s a closer is because he sucked as a starter.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's okay.

We’ll just put Coco in the starting rotation. Problem fixed?

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Nov 4, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Danny Graves approves this message

"just a couple of weeks ago a first year student in my program told me i was charming and charismatic, it was a guy, but the point still stands.: -- justin007000

by jch24 on Nov 4, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand the temptation

With Coco in decline and Rhodes’ future uncertain. Chapman may not be ready to crack the rotation this year at all, with the pitching depth and his need to iron it out in AAA. If they make him a reliever this year, they’ll be paying $1M (plus the $1.5M bonus) for best lefty reliever in the league, possibly the best reliever period. Cordero’s salary comes off the books after this season, so they’re not entrapped with him in the ‘pen and there’s payroll flexibility to go get another closer (or set-up man).

But when does he resume his studies as a starting pitcher? I would think as soon as possible, but there’s an argument to be made for 2012. It’s not really a contract issue, since the service time would be the same, it’s just a question of delaying his stint in AAA. Keeping him as a reliever throughout 2011 has the virtue of not burning an option.

But it may be harder for Chapman to return to being a SP after a full season in relief. So is it really worth risking that and his delayed arrival as a starter for 50-60 IP of Chapman vs. the alternative? Probably not.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Nov 4, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh.

If he can’t go back to being a starter after next year, just teach him how to take a snap from under center and a 5 step drop and ship him down the street a block.

Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.

by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Nov 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think we actually have nine at least slightly above average starters

maloney and lecure showed that they can be reliable options to step in and provide a quality start when needed to. and the best part is that 8 of them are pretty young. you gotta hand it to krivsky. he did a pretty good job finding young talent

by vottomatic on Nov 4, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

DanO got the young ones

Krivsky brought in Arroyo, Maloney, and Volquez. O’Brien is responsible for Cueto, Wood, Bailey, and LeCure. Jocketty brought in Chapman and Leake.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Nov 4, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's been truly a team effort, assembling the current crop of good young players

And vottomatic, I’d say it’s a bit generous to call LeCure and Maloney above average.

I don’t think there’s any way either one puts up a 4.05 ERA or better over significant starts.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Nov 4, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont think they are that much above average either

i just think they are slightly above average and both are pretty young and probably have a little bit of room left for improvement

by vottomatic on Nov 4, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think they are anywhere near average.

Average for 5th starters, maybe, but not for the league.

Riverfront just showed us that a league average ERA for a starter in 2010 was 4.05. I’m guessing that, over significant MLB starts (say 20) that Maloney would probably post something around 4.50 and LeCure around 5.00.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Nov 4, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

i meant that they would be slightly above average in the role they would be put in

which would be a fifth starter. but you are probably right. once the league got a scouting report on them and saw them a couple times it would probably change things significantly and be different than the results we saw this year

by vottomatic on Nov 4, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Been peeking at the urinals again, haven't you?

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was the manager of the Reds when I became aware of baseball.

I’ll always think of him as the manager.

When you come to the fork in the road, take it.

by poojols on Nov 4, 2010 2:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

im too young to know him at all

all i know is what my dad would say about him, which was that he was one of the best in the game.

by vottomatic on Nov 4, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

same here

i can only go by what my dad says :/

What Would Joey Votto Do?

by OGC Reds on Nov 4, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yankees aren't pursuing Crawford

it would be nice to see him in Red next year (with us, not the cards or whoever you are thinking)

What Would Joey Votto Do?

by OGC Reds on Nov 4, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

I just read that but I'm not sure I believe it

Bart: "Dad, what's a Muppet?"
Homer: "Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know."

by ChiDa on Nov 4, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, I'm with ya

I’d love to see him in Cincy too, but that ain’t happening either.

by UncleWeez on Nov 4, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking

Red Sox.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having a guy with Crawford's range playing that tiny left field at Fenway is kind of a waste.

I wonder who will be the odd man out ifnthey do sign him, Cameron or Ellsbury.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking CF

He’s gotta be an upgrade on Darnell McDonald.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 4, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Podsednik is officially a free agent

I’d really like to think the Reds know better.

Need the number of that store where they make ceramics in an oven made out of damaged circus supplies. It's called Rumpled Stilts Kiln. - Jon Wurster

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Nov 4, 2010 3:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Bring back Benito Santiago!

I miss hearing his name announced when he comes to bat.

by the finest muffins on Nov 5, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pods seems like a classic Dusty guy:

good 5-8 years ago, inflated defensive reputation, punchless speedy type for the top of the order.

by kcgard2 on Nov 4, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget the rag arm.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thankfully

I don’t think he’d be interested in the Reds since he wouldn’t be an everyday starter. His best bet with the Reds would be as a part-time leftfielder who covers the other outfield spots when needed. I think he’ll get someone to give him 500 AB.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Nov 4, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whichever GM signs Pods for more than the $2 million he would have made from his option, should be immediately fired....

Out of a cannon.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, this is the key, I think

I’m sure Walt would be interested, but someone will guarantee him 2 years and 6 million, and I doubt Walt will go there.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Nov 4, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bill Hall's defensive versatility would be nice at the right price.

Lopez seems to wear out his welcome pretty fast wherever he goes.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Nov 4, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd apprecaite the irony of having Bill Hall on this team

and yeah, he could take Cairo’s place pretty well.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Nov 5, 2010 4:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

but I think he’ll likely cost too much. The guy did hit a whole bunch of homers last year, and can play all over the field

by UncleWeez on Nov 5, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'd be an all-around upgrade to Cairo

I’d love to have him. He also provides vital insurance for Rolen that wouldn’t be an embarrassment if he had to play everyday at 3B for 60 games or so.

by kcgard2 on Nov 5, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's not that big of an upgrade over Cairo

and given that he made $8M last year, I have to wonder if he’ll settle for less than $1M this year. Cairo’s only made $1M once in his life (thanks Yankees!). So, given the cost difference, I think I’d take Cairo over Hall.

Walt is good at building benches though, so whoever he gets will probably do just fine and not cost much.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Nov 6, 2010 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still don't think it's fair to say Leake fell apart.

He was victimized by one bad inning in every non-quality start.

by Brian B on Nov 4, 2010 4:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

He is one year out of college

inning jump, he didn’t fall apart, he was still great.

What Would Joey Votto Do?

by OGC Reds on Nov 4, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

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