Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Watch Out For Cowboys UDFA Tim Benford

Compare & Contrast: A superficial glance at Shortstop

Position: Shortstop

2010 Innings breakdown: Orlando Cabrera - 71%

                                            Paul Janish - 29%

                                            Chris Valaika - 0%

                                            Drew Sutton - 0%                                         

                                           Miguel Cairo - 0%

2010 Composite batting line (over 650 PA):

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

BA

OBP

SLG

OPS

590

74

155

37

0

8

58

10

6

42

71

.263

.313

.365

.678

BABIP

Contact Rate

Walk Rate

Batting Eye

SBO

RC/G

.288

88.0%

6.5%

0.60

10.6%

3.89

2010 Composite NL average shortstop batting line (over 650 PA):

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

BA

OBP

SLG

OPS

586

74

156

28

4

10

63

14

5

48

98

.266

.325

.388

.713

BABIP

Contact Rate

Walk Rate

Batting Eye

SBO

RC/G

.305

83.8%

7.4%

0.49

11.7%

4.11

2011 Contract status:

Cabrera - $4M mutual option

Janish - not yet arbitration eligible

Valaika - not yet arbitration eligible

Sutton - with Cleveland

Cairo - free agent

Advanced minor league depth:

Zack Cozart - age 24, 726 OPS at AAA

Kris Negron - age 24, 756 OPS at AA, AAA

Relative win increase, 2010 vs. 2009: +1

Brief summary of 2010: You, the reader, will examine the below average batting line from the Cincy shortstops.  Then you will mentally digest this factoid: 2010's SS defense was roughly one win worse than in 2009.  As a sentient being with at least an elementary school education, you will see that 2010 was still a net positive over the previous year, and you will suddenly conjure up memories of the guy from last year who you thought you had forever banished from your mind's eye.  Sucks, huh?  Orlando Cabrera, for all his faults, improved the position.  It's like picking up your family and moving from Mississippi to Pennsylvania.  Sure it's better, but it's not like you're going to mention it in the Christmas letter.  Also, for whatever reason, Paul Janish's celebrated defense took a turn for the worse.  He's still got the sure hands, and he passes the eyeball test, but he simply got to way fewer balls in 2010.  Defensive numbers can be pretty volatile from year to year, and I would bet on them being better next year, but his best fielding days are likely behind him.

Way too early knee-jerk outlook for 2011: I respect the crud out of Orlando Cabrera.  He's had quite the career, was a defensive whiz, and a doubles machine for many years.  We tend to knock the mystic qualities that are assigned to the circumstances of his career path and the teams he's played for, but he has contributed to a bunch of winning clubs well beyond his expected shelf life.  I wish he hadn't been a #1/#2 hitter for this Reds club, and he was easily the worst hitting regular on the team, but he improved the club.  That said...he's done.  I'll be shocked if he plays in more than 80 games again.  He's played many years at a difficult position, and he's going to break down.  The 123 games he played in 2010 was the fewest for OC since 1999.  The Reds simply have to decline his option and walk away.  Paul Janish will still be around, and I know I'm supposed to love the guy...but I just don't see it clicking with him either.

Bottom line: Good shortstops are hard to come by, which is why they're so valuable.  The Reds will not have a good shortstop in 2011, although by playing Janish every day, they may be able to capitalize on the glove in order to stabilize a young pitching staff.  If he hits 8th, this position may still yet improve again for next year.  What's disturbing is that the shortstop position seems to be Dusty's biggest blind spot, and it also happens to be the most unsettled spot on the team.   This is a mutual fund run by uneven investment managers.  Natural market growth may improve its position, but you can do better elsewhere.  I'd recommend that you Sell, but from our data records, it appears that very few of you currently own this fund anyway.

Poll
Shortstop in 2011?
Strong Buy
9 votes
Weak Buy
14 votes
Hold
24 votes
Weak Sell
56 votes
Strong Sell
61 votes

164 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 57 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I like it

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 29, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm going to get into this fund now while it sucks.

It’s only going to get better in the future – this may be a long-term investment though.

by jsl413 on Oct 29, 2010 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

I love the buy, sell, hold theme.

I may even be able to convince my boss this has something to do with my job if he sees me here.

And yeah, I’m going all Lehman Brothers on the SS position.

"Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan. That's good advice!"

by jmgard6 on Oct 29, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions  

z

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm starting to wonder if Negron is a dark horse (that's racist!) to get a roster spot

He performed very well in AA/AAA this year, and is doing pretty well in the AFL right now too.

His defense, while not on the level of Janish/Cozart, is still above average. He doesn’t have the power of Cozart, but walks more and would make up for it in OBP.

He probably needs and will get more time in AAA, but if Janish/Cozart fail as miserably as everyone assumes they will, Negron could be a decent stopgap for a few years until Hamilton is ready to rock our worlds.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

His BABIP will definitely go down

But you’ve gotta be excited about a 19 year old whose walk rates, K rates, and ISO all went in the right direction, dramatically in some cases.

Also, dude is fast. He’s always gonna have a high BABIP. If he maintains or keeps improving on his Ks, BBs, and power, he’s still going to be just fine.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not saying I'm not excited about him

just that a regression is in his future. And not because of his BABIP, but because the minors have a way of doing that.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Oct 29, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

you just hate cool things

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not at all

I’ve just been burned too many times by minor leaguers to not believe that a bad season is in their future at some point.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Oct 29, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he keeps walking around 9% of the time and K-ing less than 20, I'll be thrilled,

regardless of the rest.

Who knows if he’ll actually do that, but I don’t see any reason to assume he won’t.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's really not a fair comparison

I’m not saying I’ll be thrilled for the rest of his career. Just next year, especially since he’ll be only 20 and already in A ball. Janish was still in A ball as a 23 year old. Also, his BB and K rates were all over the place, and Hamilton already seems to have more gap power than Janish ever has.

So, no, I won’t be thrilled if he’s exactly like Janish. But it’s a false choice, because he already isn’t Janish.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 30, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I see

this makes more sense. Thanks.

by kcgard2 on Oct 30, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

the problem is Paul Janish has a weak handshake

Slyde will tell you all about it.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

better to have loved and lost

then to have drafted Jeremy Sowers knowing he was going to fucking Vandy.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 29, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

2001 draft produced no major leaguers

that is pretty amazing considering how bad the major league team was between 2001 and 2009, I can’t believe that there wasn’t one player from that draft who would have been an upgrade over Jacob Cruz, Aaron Holbert, Ricky Stone, Joe Valentine, Ben Weber, Allen Simpson, or Chris Booker, all of whom were terrible no names who saw MLB playing time in 2005.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Josh or Billie?

"just a couple of weeks ago a first year student in my program told me i was charming and charismatic, it was a guy, but the point still stands.: -- justin007000

by jch24 on Oct 29, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

sell, Mortimer, sellllllllllll!

"the only place they lost was the scoreboard"

by Ewok on Oct 29, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

You know what's funny?

Watching Phillies twitterers defend Chase Utley to other phans who have given up on him after his bad playoff performance. Utley, who was injured during the year, had the worst season of his career and it was still arguably better than any season Brandon Phillips has put up. And there are Phillies fans who want him run out of town because one bad playoff performance.

That’s funny.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Oct 29, 2010 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Howard got absolutely killed for about a week

I mean, I know he’s overrated, overpaid, and almost took an all-star spot from Votto … ah, never mind. Actually, Howard didn’t do that bad in the postseason – unlike Utley. I think there’s a small but meaningful chance that his career takes an Alomar/Sandberg-like dive off a cliff – if not next year, then soon. He’ll be 32 and plays a position and in a manner (lotsa HBPs) that exposes him to significant injury risk.

by ken on Oct 29, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good

Maybe Utley and Howard and Halladay and Oswalt will all get pissed off at Philadelphia’s fans, quit the Phillies, and form a barnstorming team that tours the south, playing local club teams and earning extra money picking potatoes.

Only difference between astronauts and old folks bein' that you never see one astronaut spoon feedin' dollar chilli to a worse-lookin' astronaut at Wendy's

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 29, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Howard didn't do bad in the postseason?

What were his numbers? I saw him fail repeatedly, and he was especially hopeless against anyone lefthanded.

by Brian B on Oct 29, 2010 7:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

He hit .303/.395/.424 in the playoffs

He was the only Phillies player with more than 10 PA to bat over .226. He an Ruiz were only ones with OBP over .325. He and Werth were only ones to slug over .350. He had the only OPS over .760.

Fans hit him hard because of the 0 RBI and 17 K. In fact, 27 of his 33 AB were a hit or a K. That’s an odd set of data right there. His BABIP was .625.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Oct 30, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Man, can we go back to looking at first base?

I liked that a lot more.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 29, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Also, did anyone see the sidebar report that the Marlins were going to trade Mike Stanton (the OFer, not the reliever) to the White Sox for Ozzie Guillen?

I can’t believe that is even remotely true. If it had happened, it would’ve been the biggest joke of a trade ever.

And I mean ever.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Jon Gruden was traded for draft picks

that one was hilarious

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 29, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lou Piniella was traded for cash

and the Rays sucked horribly with him.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter. Buy The Wire-to-Wire Reds today!

by Slyde on Oct 29, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

This would've been like 10x worse than both of those put together.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know, the Gruden one was pretty stupid

2 1st round picks and 2 2nd round picks, plus $8 million in cash. In a league where players have short careers and depth is of paramount importance. And this was all because Tampa Bay just couldn’t live with Tony Dungy as their head coach.

While Gruden won the Super Bowl (with Dungy’s team), Dungy went off and won one elsewhere, so it’s not like he couldn’t do the job. And, thanks in part to the trade, the team quickly deteriorated. They missed out on guys like Ed Reed and Anquan Boldin just for a change of pace at head coach. That is pretty fucking stupid.

That said, Stanton for Guilen would be pretty stupid, but not 10 times stupider

Only difference between astronauts and old folks bein' that you never see one astronaut spoon feedin' dollar chilli to a worse-lookin' astronaut at Wendy's

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 29, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's all true, but at least in the NFL, coaches matter to a large degree

I don’t believe they do in the MLB. Plus, the verdict’s out on whether Guillen is even any good.

Then you have Stanton, who has more power than any other player under the age of 30, and he’s under team control for 6 more years. If I had to choose between he and Heyward, I’m not sure I’d choose Heyward. That’s how good this kid is. And to trade him for an overrated manager? Dumb. For real.

see what I did there with uzr? it’s like a LOL cats saber-pun combo.--Verka Serduchka

by nycredsfan on Oct 29, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gruden is not a good football coach

if he was, he wouldn’t be a commentator.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 29, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he's marketable.

That’s important in the NFL I think. Dungy was not marketable.

by Brian B on Oct 29, 2010 7:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

apparently there's a billboard on I-95

that has a picture of Dungy and says “SEX ED: BE THE COACH!”

which I find hilarious.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Oct 30, 2010 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

there was an analysis

that found that managers do make a difference…but only in their first three years. The theory was that a new pair of eyes can see problems the old guard missed, and fix them. But after three years, you’re one of the old guard, and either can’t see the problems any more, or can’t fix them.

But I wonder if the Reds’ success with the veteran Dusty has other teams thinking they should get big name managers, too.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 29, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure if i buy that

i mean with the way rosters turn over, a team will often be very different three years later.

I feel like a manager who is respected by his players, puts together a good lineup, is a good strategist (IE pinch hitters, double switches, LIDR, and bullpen management), will still be just as valuable after 3 years. Plus when things work out really well on rare occasion, like Bobby Cox, players want to stay with the team, and free agents want to join the team. I know Greg Maddux surprised the hell out of everybody after the 2002 season when he accepted arbitration to stay with Atlanta, because he didn’t want to leave Bobby Cox.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with that

There’s a reason teams retain good managers. Shaking things up might help things temporarily, but I wouldn’t want to hire a manager thinking that he’s only a short-term solution.

by ken on Oct 30, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can see hiring a situational manager

Jack McKeon is great with young teams, the 1999 Reds and 2003 Marlins are a perfect example. But he doesn’t do so well with veteran egos. McKeon would probably have been a good fit for the 2010 Reds, but probably wouldn’t be so good as the team gets older.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still not convinced the manager makes that much of a difference

Though I do think the Yankees kept Torre far too long. I like the guy, I think he had many talents that were well-suited for the Bronx…but more than a decade is just too long.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 31, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, sure, just not quite 10 times stupider

And keep in mind Tampa actually fucking did it, which is why a wild rumor like Stanton for Gullen can be taken seriously, even if it turned out to be BS – there are people out there in the world stupid enough to do shit like that, and some of them have jobs running pro sports franchises.

Only difference between astronauts and old folks bein' that you never see one astronaut spoon feedin' dollar chilli to a worse-lookin' astronaut at Wendy's

by RoastBeefKazenzakis on Oct 29, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm
there are people out there in the world stupid enough to do shit like that, and some of them have jobs running pro sports franchises.

I really don’t know if that should make me angry or give me hope for my own personal future success.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Randy Winn was involved in that deal as well.

I could be mistaken though.

If you want to see real bashing, check out Red Reporter…it’s crazy over there - hr

by RedsMasochist on Oct 29, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

you are correct

according to MLB Trade Rumors.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 29, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dusty Baker for Stanton....Walt, get on it...

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Oct 29, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Am I still confused by buy/sell/hold?

I think SS will be better without Cabrera, thus I’m a weak buy.. Why are so many selling? Why did so many buy Votto?

by jsl413 on Oct 29, 2010 5:58 PM EDT reply actions  

x

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

-President Andrew Jackson

by justin007000 on Oct 30, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I'm thinking

People are confused by the buy/hold/sell thing.

It’s going to be very difficult IMO for the SS position to be significantly worse in 2011 considering how underwhelming OCab was.

by kcgard2 on Oct 30, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the sell position comes from:

A) weak in-house alternatives
B) Dusty’s affinity for poor shortstop play
C) limited budget to go buy ourselves a better one

by riverfront76 on Oct 30, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand

but I think expecting a Tommy Manzella/Everth Cabrera season is about the only way for this to be a strong sell.

by kcgard2 on Oct 30, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Cincinnati Reds. Community Guidlines

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Turtle17_small
The Draft: Reds all-time best, 1 through 40.
Anime_small
The Ranch (Bailey vs. Sale)
Anime_small
Rainy Sunday (Leake vs. Skaggs)
Mister_redlegs_hasaposse1_small
Requiem For Riverfront

Recent FanPosts

Rorschach_small_small
Sunday's Rockies game - Anyone here going?
1310_small
Pls Help Me Figure Out Who Signed This Ball
Anime_small
A Salami For Soto (Villareal vs. Cloyd)
Anime_small
Waiting here in Allentown... (Gallagher vs. Hyatt)
Small
Devin Mesoraco Wallpaper
Turtle17_small
The Draft: Andrew Heaney-LHP-Oklahoma State.
Herve_small
From The Opponent's Feed™: Witness Drainage for Only $14!
Turtle17_small
The Draft: Courtney Hawkins-OF-Carroll HS.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Bench Coaches

Img00487-20110618-1949_small jch24

How-thomas-the-tank-engine-works-11_small BK

Ken_fish_called_wanda_small ken

Zombie-mlb_small Charlie Scrabbles

340x_charliesheen_small Kevin Mitchell is Batman

5851799_small FordhamRam

Lurch_small UncleWeez

Long-hair-baseball-player_small -ManBearPig

Nyc_small AC Slider

Beat Reporters

Jinaz-reds-avatar_small JinAZ

Turtle17_small Thundering Turtle

Small riverfront76

Piñata_small kcgard2