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Injuries or suckitude? Parsing blame for the Reds 2009 shortfall

Back in March, I wrote a piece at Hardball Times in which I boldly (and perhaps foolishly) predicted that the Reds would win ~86 games, based on CHONE projections.  I was pretty careful in my work-up to be as realistic about playing time as I could, using conservative PT estimates for starters, and divvying up reserve PA's in a way that seemed reasonable.  I acknowledged that I might be missing high, but cited two other published projections that had the Reds somewhere around 0.500 (the Hardball Times Season Preview and CHONE's own NL Central projections).

The Reds got pretty close to 0.500 in 2009.  Their actual record was 0.481 (3 G below 0.500).  However, depending on how you calculate it, their expected (pythagorean) record given the team stats was somewhere between 0.430 (11 G below 0.500) and 0.470 (5 G below 0.500; see my four part series recap).  Here's a look at the overall team.  In the table below, all numbers below are given in runs above average.

Component Projected Actual
Offense +20 -61
Fielding -6 +40
Pitching +39 -46
Total RAA +53 -67

Table notes: Offense, Fielding, and Pitching are all calculated from 2009 CHONE projections, whereas Actual numbers come from actual 2009 numbers.  Offense uses the same set of linear weights in both cases (this is a different set than the season recap series used).  Fielding for projections come from 2009 CHONE fielding projections, while actual fielding comes from the recap series.  Pitching is based on FIPRuns for both datasets (this is a different approach that I took last spring, but the underlying data are the same).  Nothing is park adjusted, for simplicity's sake. 

I've read that 2009 was a bad year for projection systems a whole, but holy crap, this is brutal.  Clearly the projections missed all over the place.  The 2009 Reds had much worse offense, much better fielding, and much worse pitching than expected.  Overall, the cumulative effect is a shortfall of ~120 runs between reality and the projections I was using.

So what happened?  There are two basic explanations.  Either 1) players didn't perform as well as projected in terms of their rate stats (suckitude), or 2) good players didn't get enough playing time (injuries, etc).  

I want to do a team-level projection again during spring training, so I need to know what happened here--especially if there was some kind of methodological problem with how I parsed out playing time, for example.  So, what follows is an attempt to test between these two explanations.  I'm going to go through player groups (starting 1B, reserve IF, #1 starter, etc), defined* based on players' expected roles at the start of the season, and figure the overall projected performance of all players within each group.  The projected performances will then be compared to actual performances in each group to look for where there were shortfalls and surpluses.  Then, for each shortfall or surplus, I'm going to try to divvy up the credit (or blame) to either rate stats (explanation #1), or to playing time, or both.

* Exception was in the case of a trade for a starting position player (or a starting pitcher or closer, had such a thing happened), I added the player who assumed the departed player's job.  So Rolen is included as a starting 3B, and Janish is included as a starting SS (and NOT a reserve SS).  Also, I'm lumping LF and the reserve OF's, as I projected that LF was projected to be a platoon split between Dickerson, Gomes, and Hairston, who collectively accounted for most of the projected reserve OF PA's as well.

Here's my approach for a shortfall:
  1. If a group's rate stats were better than expected, but their playing time was down, I assigned all of the blame for the shortfall to a playing time tally ("o/u PT" below).  This never actually happened. :(
  2. If a group's rate stats were worse than expected, but their playing time was up, I assigned all of the blame for the shortfall to the rate stats ("o/u Rates" below).  
  3. If both rate stats and playing time were worse than expected, I first estimated what their shortfall would have been IF they'd gotten to the projected playing time.  Essentially, I took the production they actually did, and added in additional PA's or IP's until they reached their projected playing time.  The additional PA's or IP's were added while assuming players played to their projected (not actual) rate stats, as I judged that to be more predictive than their season rate stats.  Anyway, this shortfall, after playing time shortfalls were eliminated, was the "o/u Rates" shortfall.  The remaining shortfall was assigned to "o/u PT".
Surplus production was parsed in a similar manner.  Keep in mind that I'm tracking wins above replacement here, so increased playing time with replacement-level production (e.g. increased bench PA's) will not result in a surplus in production.  In fact, if it's a sub-replacement performance, increased playing time could actually result in a shortfall!

There were a few additional wrinkles, but that's the general approach.  It's not perfect, but it seems like a decent way to take a stab at the question.

Results below jump...

Star-divide

Position Players

Projected Actual Comparison
Group PA OBP SLG Field WAR PA OBP SLG Field WAR Over/Under o/u PT o/u Rate
Starting C 467 0.332 0.435 -4 2.2 331 0.336 0.362 0 0.8 -1.4 -0.6 -0.8
Reserve C 256 0.324 0.359 0 0.7 442 0.334 0.301 6 1.4 +0.6 +0.6 +0.1
Starting 1B 576 0.365 0.494 3 3.2 544 0.414 0.567 1 5.0 +1.8 +0.0 +1.8
Starting 2B 594 0.325 0.455 6 3.4 644 0.329 0.447 10 4.0 +0.6 +0.3 +0.3
Starting 3B 561 0.360 0.485 -12 2.6 327 0.348 0.387 1 1.2 -1.4 -1.1 -0.3
Starting SS 638 0.310 0.391 0 1.6 562 0.278 0.301 7 -0.2 -1.8 -0.2 -1.6
Reserve IF 436 0.317 0.422 -2 1.1 412 0.318 0.345 0 0.1 -1.0 -0.1 -1.0
Starting CF 543 0.328 0.341 3 1.2 437 0.275 0.285 1 -1.0 -2.2 -0.2 -2.0
Starting RF 536 0.334 0.509 2 2.8 387 0.303 0.470 7 1.6 -1.2 -0.8 -0.4
Starting LF/Reserve OF 1177 0.338 0.430 -1 3.2 1722 0.325 0.442 6 6.1 +2.9 +1.9 +1.0
Pitcher Hitting 326 0.178 0.177 0 1.6 379 0.140 0.212 0 2.1 +0.6 +0.3 +0.3
Total (from total stats) 6110 0.326 0.422 -6 23.6 6187 0.315 0.393 40 21.0 -2.6 0 -2.6
Total (summing groups) -2.6 +0.1 -2.7
Total (only shortfalls) -9.0 -3.0 -6.0

Table notes: Projected numbers are based on CHONE projection rate stats as well as the number of PA's that I permitted each group of players to have. A player could get no more than the PA's projected by CHONE, but often got substantially less.  "o/u PT" is the proportion of the WAR shortfall or surplus that I attributed to playing time differences, whereas "o/u Rate" is the proportion of the WAR shortfall or surplus attributed to differences in rate stats.  The first Total line (from total stats) is an overall parsing of blame based on overall stats--since I projected almost exactly the right number of PA's, by definition any shortfall must have been rate based.  So the second column looks at the summed total of the "o/u PT" column and "o/u Rate" columns and is, I think, a better overall summary of where the problem areas were.  Finally, Total (only shortfalls) includes column totals for those groups that had a net overall shortfall.  A full spreadsheet with all players included can be found here.

The Reds had some injury difficulties last season, and as a result had a lot of players fall short on projected playing time.  Starters at C, 3B, SS, CF, and RF all fell significantly short of expected playing time.  You might be thinking that this is because we projected too much playing time, but the truth is that the Reds had just THREE players who cleared more than 400 PA's last season...and even then, two of them missed significant time.  I don't see how we could have possibly projected that.  The Reds definitely had the injury bug last year.

Why then, do we have only a total +0.1 WAR surplus attributed to playing time?  Two reasons.  First, reserves (especially outfielders) who stepped in to fill those PA's contributed above-replacement level work that was close to their expected rates, and thus largely was credited to increased playing time.  This entirely negated the playing time shortfall from the starters who missed time.

Second, and more importantly, all of those starters who missed significantly more time last year than expected (Hernandez, Encarnacion/Rolen, Gonzalez/Janish, Taveras, Bruce) ALSO performed well below their expected levels last season.  As a result, blame for those shortfalls was split between both playing time and rate stats--and it turned out that much more blame was levied on poor rate stats than poor playing time (-6 WAR vs. -3 WAR, respectively, from the last line in the table).  We just had a whole bunch of important players who didn't produce--even when they were healthy.

What about pitchers?  They had the Volquez injury there, right?  End of story?  Well, sort of...

Pitchers

Projected Actual Comparison
Name IP FIP WAR IP FIP WAR Over/Under o/u PT o/u Rate
Starter 1 (Harang) 193.0 4.11 2.7 162.3 4.22 2.1 -0.6 -0.4 -0.2
Starter 2 (Volquez) 166.0 3.96 2.6 49.6 5.10 0.2
-2.4 -1.8 -0.6
Starter 3 (Arroyo) 188.0 4.42 2.0 220.3 4.86 1.3
-0.7 0.0 -0.7
Starter 4 (Cueto) 146.0 4.56 1.3 171.3 4.77 1.2
-0.1 0.0 -0.1
Other Starters 245.8 4.71 1.9 397.4 5.40 0.3
-1.5 0.0 -1.5
Closer 64.0 3.45 0.9 66.6 3.18 1.4
+0.5 +0.1 +0.5
Core Relievers 268.0 4.09 1.2 173.6 4.86 0.0
-1.2 -0.4 -0.8
Other Relievers 171.0 4.49 0.0 216.5 3.88 1.9
+1.9 +0.4 +1.5
Total (from total stats) 1441.8 4.29 12.7 1457.6 4.71 8.4
-4.2 +0.1 -4.2
Total (summing groups) -4.2 -2.3 -2.0
Total (only shoftfalls) -6.6 -2.7 -3.9

Volquez's injury was obviously an enormous loss.  It alone accounts for roughly 40% of the pitching shortfall this year.  Similarly, shortfalls in playing time were experienced by Harang, as well as the core bullpen guys entering the season, which I defined as Weathers, Rhodes, Burton, Bray, and Lincoln (Bray and Lincoln were injured, Weathers was traded).  Altogether, these playing time losses accounted for a little over half of the pitching WAR shortfall.

The remaining shoftfall, however, was again due to poor performance.  All four of the primary starters (and all five in the opening rotation) had FIP's higher than projected.  Micah Owings, in particular, was a disaster, coming in at -0.3 WAR after being projected at +1 WAR (though, to be fair, Owings is a big reason why the pitchers' offensive rate stats were better than projected, so some of this cancels).  And despite pitching only 23 innings, Mike Lincoln's -0.7 WAR drives a big chunk of the core reliever shortfall.  Fortunately, other pitchers in the bullpen stepped up (Masset, Herrera, Fisher), making the bullpen a net positive.

Wrapping up

So, if you're keeping score at home, I attributed virtually all of the net position player shortfall to poorer than expected performance (rate stats), as the lost playing time that did occur was countered by effective performances from the reserves who filled in for them.  For pitchers, it was closer to a 50/50 split between injuries and poor performances.  Therefore, the reason the Reds didn't live up to my expectations was mostly due to underperforming players, rather than just injuries.

The other take-home from this is that I feel reasonably confident after going through this exercise that there isn't a fundamental bias in the methodology by which I was a parsing out playing time that led to the over-prediction of 86 wins.  Instead, it was really more a case of the projection system I was relying on missing high on a lot of players. Well, that, and the Volquez injury.

This is not to knock CHONE as a system.  I think if I had done this with most of the other projection systems, it would have shown a fairly similar result.  Very few systems, for example, would have forecast Jay Bruce to hit just 0.223/0.303/0.470, or Willy Taveras to hit 0.240/0.275/0.285 for that matter!  Nevertheless, it is probably the case that the next time I try to do this, I will use averages of multiple projection systems, as that approach has been demonstrated to be more predictive than using any one system by itself.

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I have a headache

Seriously, though, nice work.

It’s interesting, and a nice validation of saber-minded practices, when a whole bunch of significant and substantial numbers-crunching comes to the same conclusion many of us have from a gut feeling: injuries certainly didn’t help, but the team just kind of sucked and massively underperformed.

I blame Dusty!!!!

Now someone show Justin’s work to Walt and the media who are blaming last year on injuries.

by nycredsfan on Jan 7, 2010 10:24 PM EST reply actions  

I have a headache too

I’ve been working on this damn thing since mid-December. It seems like it should be straightforward, but I kept changing around the methodology, etc.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Changing around the methodology sounds kinda dicey, if you ask me

I thought good analysis is repeatable and reproducible (and they are different things).

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 8, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Good analysis is well thought out too

And it apparently wasn’t when I started. Kept finding problems in what I was doing, so I kept changing it. That’s how research goes sometimes.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Arroyo

Is pitcher WAR based solely on IP and FIP? I know Arroyo had a very un-DIPS year, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around a 220 IP, 112 ERA+ starter being worth only 1.2 WAR. I guess it’s tricky separating pitching and defense when quantifying run prevention.

Great job, btw. This really shows that underperformance was a bigger culprit than injury.

by ken on Jan 7, 2010 10:40 PM EST reply actions  

Arroyo is an odd one to me

He never looks good, in person or via stats. Yet somehow his team wins when he pitches (when he’s not BadRroyo). I want him traded NOW, as he’s a ticking time bomb.

All UK fans are toothless racist hillbillies.

by jch24 on Jan 7, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

takes one to know one

"I expected much better than that".....tHan

by obc2 on Jan 8, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, I have him at 1.3 WAR. :)

Yes, it’s based on FIP and playing time.

FanGraphs has him at 1.8 WAR, and I’m not sure what the difference is—I’d have to go back through their pitching methodology. I know they use FIP as well, but I’m not sure if they do the runs to wins conversion the same way I do (I use Tango’s methodology). A big part of it (probably half of the difference) could be that I’m using a different baseline for NL vs. AL, whereas FanGraphs doesn’t yet recognize the league disparity AFAIK.

If he had a 4.86 ERA in 220 innings would you be more comfortable with that number? That’s what the calculations are seeing. I have him as a 0.440 pitcher, and replacement level for a starter in the NL is a 0.390 pitcher. You could argue that Arroyo’s one of those pitchers who is systematically better than his FIP (career FIP is 4.44, career ERA is 4.24), but I don’t think it’s enough to offset a full run disparity.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Over 220 innings, a 4.86 ERA is 119 runs. Bronson’s actual ER was 94 (101 total runs), which would attribute about 2 1/2 wins to the defense. I guess that sounds reasonable, but I’m not really sure.

I feel like there should be a bonus for throwing that many innings, though. Over 33 starts Arroyo averaged about 6 2/3 innings. You figure a replacement level pitcher would throw about 5.5 per start, and that’s a 40 inning difference. Which would further burden the bullpen and result in diminsihing returns by Masset and the others for those extra innings.

What is the replacement level ERA, something like 5.50?

by ken on Jan 8, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

2 1/2 wins is attributable to defense, pitcher skill to beat DIPS, and luck. And park/pitcher interactions, probably.

You can decide how much to parse to what area, but the Reds’ fielding at +40 RAA equates to roughly 0.25 runs saved per game, or ~6 runs per 220 innings. Doesn’t mean it was evenly distributed across all pitchers, but I’d hesitate to assign more than 10 runs of Arroyo’s total to fielding.

As for innings, you could make the counter-argument that Arroyo’s getting more credit than he should for his innings. If he really is was a 4.86 ERA pitcher (i.e. if he’d done the same thing again, he would average a ~4.86 ERA), he wouldn’t have gotten to 220 innings, because Dusty would have removed him from games earlier. So maybe he’s getting too much credit for playing time… I’m inclined to leave things as they are.

Replacement level for a starting pitcher in the NL is defined at a 0.390 pitcher, which should be allowing runs at (if some calculations I did years ago hold) 124% of MLB average. Last year, MLB average was a 4.32 ERA, so replacement is ~5.35 ERA. For relievers, replacement level is higher, much closer to league average (~4.45 ERA), because pitchers throw so much better in relief than as starters.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If WAR is retrospective, he should definitely get credit for those 40 innings

regardless of whether a true 4.86 ERA pitcher would be able to replicate Arroyo’s season. I can agree that it would be too problematic to tweak the WAR formula to give extra credit for durability, but I still think that WAR is underrating Arroyo’s season because he spared the bullpen forty innings.

by ken on Jan 9, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Great stuff, Justin

So how do your conclusions affect the way you are looking at the 2010 season? More optimistic, or less?

Seems like one might be more optimistic about the team’s chances this year if you could attribute last year’s losing to injuries.

Redleg Nation: A Cincinnati Reds blog

by Chad Dotson on Jan 8, 2010 9:32 AM EST reply actions  

or to Willy Taveras

either way, this year’s gotta be better

by nycredsfan on Jan 8, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Really not sure yet

This is really the last piece I’m planning to do on the 2009 team (and I’ve been wanting to do it since the regular season ended, which gives you an idea about the pace at which I work), so at this point I want to start looking forward to 2010. Projections that I’ve seen haven’t been particularly rosy. I’ll have to wait and see.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Time for my usual rant
This is not to knock CHONE as a system. I think if I had done this with most of the other projection systems, it would have shown a fairly similar result. Very few systems, for example, would have forecast Jay Bruce to hit just 0.223/0.303/0.470, or Willy Taveras to hit 0.240/0.275/0.285 for that matter! Nevertheless, it is probably the case that the next time I try to do this, I will use averages of multiple projection systems, as that approach has been demonstrated to be more predictive than using any one system by itself.

The problem is that projection systems look at groups of players, then pat themselves on the back when the group performs to the projection. When a Jay Bruce or Willy Taveras (or, on the other extreme, a Joey Votto) shows up, they just brush it off as “luck” or “an outlier”.

But, different players are different. Jay Bruce has a unique set of skills, and he’s not going to progress like the average 23 year old; the same can be said of every individual 23 year old. All 23 year olds together, however, are going to progress the same. Because of this, all projections systems are always going to be hit-or-miss on individual players while being pretty close on groups of similar players or even the whole league.

Finally, while you (and others) go to great lengths to take luck out of the pitchers’ evaluation, luck is probably the biggest factor in the poor results of the projections of Bruce (BABIP .221), Votto (.375) and Taveras (.277, vs. a career .324).

(puts soapbox away)

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 8, 2010 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

Mean reversion to career averages

Projection systems also typically have a mean reversion element to them. In the Reds particular case, projections putting the Reds in the 730-760 runs scored range typically expected that Taveras, Gonzalez and Hernandez would perform somewhere closer to their career averages. However, they did not revert or bounce back to any decent performance that they had in prior years. On top of that, the reality at third base was an OPS less than .670, while Encarnacion was projected to get most of the at-bats at an OPS over .770 (and he didn’t hit well for the 40 or so games he played in Cincinnati.)

by GregD on Jan 8, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Responses

1. Projections are objective ways of calculating the over/under line on a player’s future performance. CHONE’s as good as they come as far as estimating rate stats for players (as measured by average error rate on each player). That does not mean that it never misses—of course it does. But it gives us a baseline expectation to work from.

There are systems (ZiPS, PECOTA before it broke) that try to get subsets of players based on skills as use those for projections. They’re still groups, but they’re groups with traits in common (small, quick players vs. big, fat players). CHONE, which does not do this, has been just as good a predictor as those systems based on a variety of post-hoc analyses.

I don’t think I’m brushing off the outliers—what I’m saying is that the reason I missed badly on a team-level projection is that some of the players missed badly on their performance. Misses are what they are. It’s not that the players must be doing something “wrong” or “erroneous” to miss—they just didn’t perform up to the system’s expectations. My goal was to parse that sort of underperformance from lost production due to lost playing time.

What’s your alternative to using projections? Ultimately, unless you refuse to look forward at all (in which case, we’re speaking different languages and will never agree), you have to have some way—objective or subjective—of estimating how well a player will hit or pitch next year to make any kind of judgement about what the future holds. And, ultimately, there will be times when you miss badly. My preference, and what these projections try to do, is to get a system that at a minimum will be in the ballpark for most players, acknowledging that there are substantial error bars around each projection.

2. As for the issue of luck, it’s a problem for hitters, especially for Bruce & Votto as you observe. Unfortunately, I’m just not happy with the mechanisms we have available to try to get around luck for hitters, so I’m not using them yet. I know there are methods & calculators out there that profess to do it, but I’m not particularly confident that they are giving us something all that solid to work with. Fortunately, on the whole, luck is much less of a problem for hitters than for pitchers. Doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t love to start using some luck-immune batting estimates, but I (at least) am not there yet.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Response(s) to the responses

1. Don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with what you did per se; you used the projections exactly as they are intended to be used. My objection is twofold:

  • The projections should be seen more as a bell-curve area of what should be expected, yet they’re sold (and thus used) as much more exact than that. Dan Szymborski used to show something like this for one or two players on each team (scroll down, and you’ll see the data for Votto and Bruce); now he shows much less data for more players, so you lose that sense of what’s probable even for a very limited number of players.
  • When evaluating the projection systems, it seems that they’re validated by their accuracy for the group examined without critical analysis of why certain players are missed so badly. There are going to be outliers anyway simply because of luck, injury, reduced playing time, etc. but there are also guys that are just plain misses, but those misses are just brushed aside by the projection system as “outliers”.

And let me reiterate: You did exactly what one is supposed to do with the information; I have no problem with your projections. It’s not your fault you were sold a bill of goods.

2. As I alluded to above, I think projections do have a place in the evaluation of a player or a team. The projections do a reasonably good job most of the time, but the question of the probability of the projection is equally important and that is (apparently now) not available in any of the projections. Maybe your analysis was spot on, and every player produced at a level that was reasonable but not to their projection; on the other hand, maybe your analysis was poor (I don’t think so, but you and alot of other people around here are smarter about statistical evaluation than I am) or the guys that underperformed really did underperform. Because we only know each player’s expected WAR and not their expected range of WAR, we’ll never know.

3. I haven’t run the numbers, but it sure seems to me that the different projections for the players are pretty similar (except for Bill James, who (I think) only uses MLB data and not MiLB data); you even said no one would have projected Bruce’s or Taveras’s line. I don’t think using an average of the projections would yield the type of difference (120 runs) you’re looking for.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 8, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you'd love this study by Steve at BtB

He’s trying to get at the uncertainty around projections. Instead of doing the simple-headed “yes, good signing” or “no, bad signing” based on point projections, he’s calculating the probabilities that a given contract will pay off given the uncertainty around projections:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/12/17/1202544/worth-the-money
Step in the right direction.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting

What that article is doing is just what you said – trying to put a probability on the “value” of certain players. However, it uses earlier work that addresses exactly what I’m saying about the spread of likely performance. Here’s the real meat and potatoes.

The way it reads, his work is really in a rough stage (at least it was when he published that article 2 months ago). However, I think what he’s trying to do is exactly what needs to be done, and I wonder why the projectors can’t include something like a 1 standard deviation (he uses 1/2 sd because it “feels” better) range in their projections.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 8, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we're in complete agreement

As far as I know, for example, no one’s ever verified that the PECOTA percentiles—even before PECOTA broke last season—really do what they say they do. CHONE had some indication of the variation in his projections for 2009 iirc too, but not this year.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 8, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I stopped presenting it that way as it was always a little awkward presenting the error margins that way. So I went to presenting overall numbers of things (split into tiers) rather than trying to present a good generic line, since the package of upside/downside will vary. If that makes sense – it’s after midnight.

For Bruce last year, I had this for OPS+ probability (in %):

160+ – 7%
140+ – 20%
130+ – 34%
120+ – 44%
110+ – 55%
100+ – 71%
90+ – 82%
80+ – 90%
60+ – 95%

That was a much wider variance that pretty much everyone.

The problem always is how to present the data for maximum utility with limited confusion for the audience (you wouldn’t believe how many questions I have to field about the silliest things). I have a problem here to some extent not having a compsci background.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 9, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

do you do follow ups to find out which "bucket" is most common for players to land in after the fact

So Bruce reached his 71% probability. Is that common? Are most guys lower than that? Higher? Basically, is 50% probability really 50% after the fact or just throughout history?

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Jan 9, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I was pretty happy with how it worked out – I started reporting it last year so I didn’t have a whole league to evaluate. This year, I’ll have a bigger population and can do a wider test.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 9, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to see a distribution of that sometime

Do you plan to publish those results? So, while I’d bet that over a large enough sample, most projections do well on the average, how are players distributed in percentile buckets? That’s what I’d like to see.

Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter

by Slyde on Jan 9, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

For once

I agree. It would be interesting to see the spread of the individual projections.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 9, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

The actual results of the results I hope to publish after this season – I only have last year’s projected percentiles for players on 12 teams.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 9, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for stopping in!

I understand that you’d end up presenting a boatload of data for each team; I just think our expectations would be better grounded if we knew the range of probable performance for players.

It’s not surprising to me that Bruce’s range was so wide, and seeing this should really temper the “just not that good” talk I’ve heard.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Jan 9, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I do post quite a bit to demonstrate the variability. That’s what that first section of ODDIBE is – likelihood of the player performing in what quintile of starters assuming that particular PA.

For example, Brandon Philips and Joey Votto for 2010 (ZiPS is very cold on Bruce in the next year, but still likes him long-term, so he’s not the best example here).

Name PO EX VG AV FR PO
VottoJoey 1B 30% 40% 18% 9% 2%
PhillipsBrandon 2B 34% 21% 19% 16% 10%

In essence, ZiPS sees Philips as being more risky than Votto. Slightly better chance at being among the top 20% of starters at the position, but also twice as likely to be among the bottom 2 quintiles and five times as likely to be in the lowest.

If anyone needs to more information, please contact me by e-mail; I’m dangerously close to advertising here.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 9, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I should note that’s for offense.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 9, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty much what I found, yeah

Volquez’s injury definitely hurt, probably by a win or two (and we’re talking theoretical wins here, as the Reds beat out their pythagorean marks—so you could say that negated the loss of Volquez for 2009).

Aside from Volquez, though, I think it was mostly underperformance.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 8, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I balme the losing season entirely on Dudsy.

Although a fair amount of blame could be shouldered by sMarty and clownboy.
And while I’m at it let me spread a bit of blame to tHom and Jim D and that other creepy guy what his name….

But most of the blame goes to Dudsy, its the easiest and most simplified analysis of the 2009. (Don’t be poking around here with no facts Jin or SidN or you guys…)

If ol’ pete and I ran the club, by Gawd we’d have fucking winner….right pete? pete?

Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

by Madville on Jan 8, 2010 2:49 PM EST reply actions  

You make me feel so dumb

Before the curse of stastics fell upon mankind we lived a happy, innocent life, full of merriment and go and informed by fairly good judgement.

-Hilaire Belloc

by poojols on Jan 8, 2010 5:41 PM EST reply actions  

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