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Around SBN: Tom Brady And The Confusing Pantheon Of QB Greatness

Remember back in 2004 when the O.C. was good?

Yahoo's Tim Brown is reporting that the Reds have signed Orlando Cabrera for $3 million with a $3 million option for next year. I'm not sure if it's a team, player, or mutual option.

Ultimately, Cabrera wanted the chance to stay at shortstop, which the Rockies weren't going to give him. So he looks to be our new starting shortstop, pushing Paul Janish to the bench/bullpen. The theory, of course, is that Cabrera's offense will be an upgrade over Janish's. JinAZ takes a good look at that supposition below.

His slash line for last year was .284/.316/.389, an OPS+ of 86. He hit 10 sacrifice flies, so he can "get 'em in."

Cabrera is 35.

about 2 years ago Happyhanukkah_tiny Brendanukkah 388 comments 0 recs  | 

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THE SKY IS FALLING

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 30, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions  

They're not gonna move arroyo or harang over 3 mil

It will be entirely predicated on whether or not were in the race come July. And since cabrera improves our depth and improves our performance, he actually increases our chance of retaining harang and arroyo.

"Live every week like it's shark week. And dress everyday like you're gonna get murdered in those clothes." - Tracey Jordan

by RedinWrigleyville on Jan 30, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

It depends on their vision for the club. If 2011 is the year to really compete, they’ll likely want to have the salaries of one or both of those pitchers off the books, and if they can get a useful piece out of a trade, then maybe they go that route instead of draft picks. I think we’d have to be doing really, really well for them to say, “We’re all in for this year,” and actually improve the chances of us keeping Harang and Arroyo.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 30, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Then u agree the signing is a moot point

"Live every week like it's shark week. And dress everyday like you're gonna get murdered in those clothes." - Tracey Jordan

by RedinWrigleyville on Jan 31, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Moo point

like a cow’s opinion, doesn’t matter

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think that the team has the chance to be something really good

They’ve got good pitching, and they’ve got excellent defense (a little poorer now, but still good). If they get some offense – good years from Rolen and Bruce, no Taveras, and say .280 from Cabrera with 10 HR – then I think they can be a contender in the NL Central.

It would take a lot of things to go right for that to happen, and my bet is that they won’t all go right. So to me, 2011 is still the year we’re shooting for.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Apparently, Mr. Newkirk forgot, among other things

that Rolen was still under contract for this year.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

"Pulsating Latin American pipeline"

Sexy.

Ideally, we do win both this year and next… and next. And I definitely want our players to think they can win every year. I think they have a good chance to have a winning season this year, but next year’s when we make our deep playoff run. With our pulsating Latin pipeline.

And I applied for a position at the Louisville Slugger Museum. They haven’t contacted me yet. Jerks.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

good luck!

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Jan 31, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Good luck dude

It’d be a pretty sweet gig, and close to RR get togethers!

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Now that great sports reporting..Doc should take a lesson from this Newquirk guy

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll get you my bereavement picks by the end of the night

Stomach virus is ripping through the B household.

by Brian B on Jan 31, 2010 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This team

Can win the division if things go well and carpenter gets injured. Chris carpenter is the only thing keeping the reds in 2nd place.

by fifawcs on Jan 31, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

I’m not sure about that

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I do my own projections and they are way better than PECOTA. http://www.mlbprojections.com

by fifawcs on Jan 31, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

boom, spam'd!

FTR, I said nothing about PECOTA, just that Holliday and Pujols will matter more to the Cards this season

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No

If you look at the careers of Holliday and Pujols, they are way less injury prone than Chris Carpenter. Carpenter barely pitched in 2007 and 2008. He was worth 5.6 wins above replacement last year as a healthy player, which is a big deal. That’s not to say losing Holliday or Pujols would be a big deal. Rather, losing Carpenter is a more likely outcome.

by fifawcs on Jan 31, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol scatter plot example

Dusty Baker said it was the first [triple play] he’d seen in person. When he was with the Dodgers, they hit into one, but he was in the bathroom.- C Trent

by The Crushinator on Jan 31, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think this signing hurts

It’s not a Willy T type disaster in that Cabrera won’t be a huge negative. But Cabrera isn’t much of an upgrade. It’s just kind of not needed.

But it might make a few more idiot fans buy tickets because the Reds showing they are “serious about winning” by going out and getting a proven vet SS.

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Jan 30, 2010 11:42 PM EST reply actions  

Oh and anyone calling him O-Cab

can just leave now….

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Jan 30, 2010 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

Vyos Cabreros my darling

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I deem his RR nickname to be .......dun dunna

The OC

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Think BP will be cooler

now that his real estate next to The OC?

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

warmer maybe

"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 31, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

How about Cabernet?

He gets better with age.

At least we hope so.

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Feb 1, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm just call him old and busted

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I do not like this signing

I want this team to look like that good AZ team a few years ago.

by Eastwindquinn on Jan 30, 2010 11:49 PM EST reply actions  

So how much of the goodwill from the Chapman signing does this sap?

If they sign Gomes to the minor league deal, I’ll be better with this,

but holy hell, that player option better be a team option

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 30, 2010 11:51 PM EST reply actions  

It's not a completely negative signing for me

He is an upgrade over Janish, even if only a small one. They felt like they had the money to sign him, and they did. I’ll be okay with this. For whatever defensive deficiencies he might have, he will be playing between Rolen and Phillips, which should mitigate some of his weaknesses. I feel slightly better about seeing him in the #2 slot rather than Janish. A big part of me liking Janish was assuming he’d bat 7th or 8th, and knowing Dusty, that would never happen.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 30, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I still think Janish would be worth more

The only hope I have is the switch to the nl will boost his numbers a bit, and he can get his walk rate back up. 2009 was a bit of an outlier on the low side. If he can OBP in the .320s I won’t totally hate it

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

we hope he's an upgrade over Janish

There’s a distinct possibility that he won’t be.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, that's a rec.

And I like the idea of Janish being the team’s Buster.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

He (O-CAB) is too fucking old

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

What?

I can’t hear you.

Speak up!

/old timer’d

by ol Pete on Jan 31, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

lack of depth at SS too

if Janish ever went down, the reds would be f’d big time

by cokane on Jan 31, 2010 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

possibly

OTOH, they have a lot of depth at SS in the minors. Supposedly, they’re hoping to call up Cozart by September. And there’s Valaika, too. It wouldn’t be the end of the world if one of those had to be called up a little early.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 7:32 AM EST up reply actions  

it would be if the Reds were in a playoff run

not that I expect them to be, but certainly someone does.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess that's the difference

I really don’t see the Reds making a playoff run this year. I’d rather they kept their powder dry for next year, as it were. As I’ve said before, I think constantly trying to win now and win later is a mistake, unless you’re the Yankees. Heck, I think it’s probably a mistake even for the Yankees.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, I know this is probably wishful thinking,

but there’s also a chance his offensive numbers get a boost from coming back to the NL.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 30, 2010 11:58 PM EST reply actions  

I was wondering about that

especially playing in GABP.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 30, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I'm thinking

He’s hit 8 or 9 homers a year for awhile….why can’t he hit 12-14 playing half his games in GABP?

My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts

by cesarhernandez on Jan 31, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

He played for CHW in 2008

US Cellular is just as much of a homer-happy park as GABP. He hit 8 in 730 PA’s.

Might get a slight bump in some of his numbers moving back to NL, but I’d guess that this effect is countered by a year of aging.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 31, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Home run park factors

HR Park factor at GABP in 2009: 1.11
HR Park factor at US Cellular in 2009: 1.12

5 year regressed park factors.

30+ doubles/yr at least isn’t awful. He’s not Juan Pierre, but Cabrera won’t provide a lot of pop.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 31, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Again, looking at his numbers, the question to me

Is will he walk 5% of the time like last year or 8% of the time like he has in the past. Janish wasn’t going to hit any homers either, but we need our SS to get onmore than 30% of the time

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The weaker he gets as a hitter...

the more pitchers will challenge him, and the more his walk rate is likely to be. I’m not expecting much of a rebound.

by JinAZ on Jan 31, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Hoping that a full year in GABP will do the same for Rolen

But like Justin says, that’s probably balanced by aging.

by ken on Jan 31, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

In fact, one could argue that he does the complete opposite of that

Hello, number 2 hitter!

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

correct

and thus, a bad signing.

"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job

by PeteyHendrix on Jan 31, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Sheldon confirms via tweet

Option is for 3 mil with a 1mil buyout. Doesn’t know what kind of option, but if there’s a buyout I assume it’s a team option

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:19 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

there are much better things they could have used that 4 mil for

but at least it isn’t two years guaranteed, and hopefully there’s nothing that will make it vest.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Straight from Tim Brown's mouth

to the #2 hole.

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Jan 31, 2010 12:24 AM EST reply actions  

Gross

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

better than the other way around.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 31, 2010 8:03 AM EST up reply actions  

So we've got:

CF Stubbs
SS Cabrera
1B Votto
2B BP
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
LF Gomes (if all goes well)
C Hernandez

Not terribly thrilling but a step up from having to use Jannish and Wlad and C-Dick (IF they sign Jonny)
Although I would love to see Frazier worked in this season. But Jannish now goes to the #2 spot on the depth chart
So prolly no Todd at SS this ST.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:29 AM EST reply actions  

no John Vanderwal!

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions  

We have equal production and cheaper options than Gomes on this roster

Plus with Walt & The Dusty valuing (perhaps overvaluing) defense, Gomes doesn’t fit their mold.

Granted, he plays LF, and LF defense is next to worthless in valuing a player, but it seems they’re sticking to their guns about trying to get certain type players.

I guess Gomes just isn’t that type player.

by Highlifeman21 on Jan 31, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

He's enough their type of player that they're bringing him back

He’s the best right-handed power option for the team. Yes, there are a lot of LF options, but I certainly don’t think it’s a mistake to have Gomes be one of those options.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

UH because he HITS with power, is a tremendous competitor and is probably affordable.

Why wouldn’t you want him?
He is a fairly proven MLB and as much as we all have out fav AAA guys, Frazier, END, Wlad, Heisy and our platoon guy/#4 OF C-Dick. I’d rather have Gomes in LF for 2010.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean, the only hole left, I assume, is LF

and even though CDick and Wlad have hit a bit on the major league roster, it doesn’t hurt to have Gomes in on a minor league deal.

I’m not sold on Heezy and END. I’m no timb, I like my prospects, but depth certainly doesn’t hurt.

I’m worried about the commitment to defense, though. I don’t know if Orlando signals a surrender of that.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they think he can still play defense

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 7:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

"he's a Gold Glover"

that’s all the evidence Dusty needs.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

you don't have to be to be skeptical about those prospects

hell, NYC is skeptical of END and no one except Heisey is sold on his ability (and no one seems to have told him he’s not supposed to hit this well. Let’s hope people keep it a secret from him until the Yankees sign him to a 150 million contract in 6 years).

Cy, it’s not all prospects. It’s these prospects

by timb116 on Feb 1, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Sheldon reminded me, someones gotta be removed from the 40 man

If it’s Taveras, this deal was worth every penny

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:32 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

hmmm

Somehow, I don’t think the Reds are going to punt Willy this early.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

A Very Solid #2 Hitter

                  Hit .381 with a man on 1st last year largely because he also hit .404 when going to the right side. That means our lead off hitter gets on, a good percentage of the time we’re going to have two men on when Votto comes up. That means quite a few more crooked numbers.

                 Steals some bases, will hit about 10 HRs and probably 30-40 2Bs, can SAC bunt if you like that sort of thing and has had a knack of hitting SFs (led the AL last year and a few other years). Rarely strikes out. Batted .315 in September/October for the Twins in their stretch run and added 23 RBIs in 31 games.

                  Those who keep insisting he’s very little of an upgrade or no upgrade at all over Janish are deluded.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 12:43 AM EST reply actions  

I think you are being a bit optimistic

he hasn’t hit 10 HR since 2004. He will likely hit at least 30 2Bs, but no way he gets to 40. He also OBPed .318 last year. That’s not so good for a #2 hitter. (and it certainly doesn’t mean we’ll have 2 men on for Votto)

He’s certainly an offensive upgrade, but the question is will his defensive problems negate that improvement. If so, it’s a wasted $3 million.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll take his excellent offensiveand his 'old man' defense

over PJ’s super-excellent defense and puny offense any day.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

of course we're deluded

because we think defense matters, but everyone knows that defense doesn’t matter. how can we be so stupid, jeez….

for the record, I don’t hate this deal, but anyone with a .318 OBP is not a very solid #2 hitter.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea, But

Can you put a stat on veteran leadership? No, I don’t know which war.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I see what you did there.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 31, 2010 8:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Shrug

              “About” 10 is an accurate statement for someone who hits 8-9 every year and is now going to a nice hitter’s park in an inferior league. I regard his “defensive problems” last year as an outlier, as was Janish’s +24 UZR/150.

                 OBP isn’t the beginning and end of offensive value; his situational stats are impressive.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 12:57 AM EST reply actions  

It's not the beginning and end of offensive value, but it is for a #2 hitter

For the top two spots in the lineup, a OBP like Cabrera’s is slightly below average. We’re paying 3 million dollars to make our 2nd lineup spot below average, and downgrade our SS defense.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

More Stats

                OC’s lifetime numbers batting #2 show a .289 BA and .336 OBP. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him equal that in the NL. And can he repeat his situational numbers? Well, in 2007 he hit .397 with a man on 1st, dropped to “only” a .310 in 2008 and then hit .381 last year. You tell me.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

if he can manage a .336 OBP

then I’ll be fine with him offensively, but I seriously doubt it happens.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Why?

                 The three years before last year his OBP was .334, .345 and .335. And the NL is definitely a weaker league.

                 He had 36 doubles last year, so 40 isn’t much of a stretch.

                 Cabrera’s a good defensive SS; I don’t care what last year’s UZR was. This team’s main problem was offense last year; OC is a big offensive upgrade over a .210 hitter and gives us the every day, professional #2 hitter we desperately need.

                 This is an excellent move by Walt and he got Cabrera for a decent price (same salary as Hernandez – an inferior player).

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

one more moderate hitter in the lineup is not a "big offensive upgrade"

and sure maybe I’m pessimistic after his .308 and .319 OBP the last two yrs and his .322 career average. so I guess its not impossible, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

I do like that he has more power than janish, but I’d rather he was using it in the 7th or 8th spot.

My biggest concern, is cabrera’s age, his declining speed (a vital aspect to a SS’s defense), and his very poor year defensively at such an old age. it is not delusional to consider it possible that we will not get what we’re paying for.

As I already said, I don’t hate the deal, so long as the 2nd year isn’t guaranteed it’s possible we found an upgrade to the club for next year if he can bounce back offensively and defensively. I just don’t see it happening that way.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions  

at least he's healthy

Or seems to be. In any case, OC doesn’t sound like a reclamation project. Not like we have to wait for his hyperbotomodial trapezoid extrapolator to heal after 18 months of therapy at Doctor Butcher’s office in Poland.

“such an old age” … ah to be 35 again or have a notion about it.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Those OBPs

               are both from last year.

                Anything is “possible”. The odds are we just got a much better hitter at SS who might be a slight defensive downgrade (maybe; he was a 13 UZR/150 in 2008). That’s worth $3 million.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions  

yep my mistake

I put a lot of weight into his career numbers though myself. and I’m ok with throwing 3 mil at him, I’d rather they put that money into the draft/IFA budget or something like that, but I’m not totally against the deal either.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 2:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with most of that stuff you typed there

I kinda feel l that his range might have decreased since 4 years ago. Feelings, Nothing more than feelings. And we have come a long way in the past decade when it comes to defensive numbers. (Thank you Justin) I honestly believe that as far as the management are concerned, pitching and defense are the top priorities. In that order. All in all things considered with OC, I’m very happy to see that we didn’t land a caveman to field at SS.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 1:46 AM EST up reply actions  

below average?

This team hasn’t been able to conjure up enough offense in the past two years to win a game of Old Maid. We are all wringing our hands over this.

Janish can’t hit, folks.

Cabrera may not be able to hit either, but what I know about Janish is fairly obvious.

This is not the worst thing the Reds ever did.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm saying below average compared to the rest of the league

Not compared to Janish. What I’m trying to say is that we’re basically taking the hole from the 8th spot in the order (formerly Janish) and moving it to the 2nd spot and partially filling it up (currently Cabrera), and then creating another shallow hole at shortstop. Why are we paying 3 million dollars to do that?

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Our #2 Spot

                 Batted .235 with a .302 OBP in 2009.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

A big part of that was Gonzalez hitting 2nd for a lot of the year, which is Dusty’s fault, because he never should have been there to begin with.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions  

an idiot?

But I was told the players like Dusty..

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

A lot of people like Sarah Palin

Does that mean she’s not an idiot?

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Palin isn't an idiot

She isn’t politically very acute. Beyond that, I think she’s fairly much a babe.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions  

lucky for me

I have no reason to care about defending Sarah Palin on any other level.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

At this point

I’d rather have Palin running the country than Obama.

by Ewok on Jan 31, 2010 9:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No you wouldn't, believe me on this.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

i tend to agree also

Where’s all the CHANGE, Mads?

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

what do you know?

you can’t even figure out how to log in and out of the correct accounts

wickett

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

your retarded

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought we were talking about baseball

Say what you want about Obama’s politics, he’s is by all definitions of the a genius……before even started in politics.

He got a full ride scholarship to Columbia and Harvard and graduated in the top of his class. I can honestly say I do not know anyone that smart, and I am very close to a graduate degree in Chemistry.

Where did Palin go to college?

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill Gates dropped out of college

he must be a dumbass compared to Barack, eh?

Obama is the proverbial pretty woman who writes 10 checks before her payroll direct deposit posts to her account. Sure those overdraft fees destroy the family budget but all those pairs of new high heels sure look good in the closet!

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Shush - lets talk Baseball

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Johnny Gomes is overmatched by major league pitchers!

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Shush - so is Wladimere Balentien

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

more Todd Frazier, less Todd Palin, mmk?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

obc only gets pop ups on the west side these days

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Bill Gates

scored a 1590 on his SATs and dropped out of HARVARD. Something tells me you never tried to apply to a Ivy League school, because you really have to have your shit together.

I love how when you talk about someone’s education back ground that is realy impressive, there is always some genius that says “Yeah well Bill Gates dropped out of college!”

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

alright guys

enough of this. if you wanna talk politics take it somewhere else.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

give me an infield fly rule!

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

pop-tarts too rich for your blood?

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm married now...

finished with the tarts.

I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 31, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I believe Mads calls them skags

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

call them what ever

between 2 separate women and relationships, the better part of my last 3 years have been “committed”. I’m ready to not be committed.

by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

SOB

gotta work on the wingman timetable. when you’re committed I wasnt. Now you’re on the market and jch is off the market. dangit.

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Feb 1, 2010 1:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Do the mods write the popups?

I’ve gotten a couple that I thought were pretty obnoxious (not here).

by ol Pete on Jan 31, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

what's a popup?

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Feb 1, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

i think he's talking about a warning

which is reaaaaally serious. 5 of those and you’ll get a direct email. 3 of those, and let me tell you, you do NOT want it to get this far, but 3 of those and youre looking at a formal disciplinary file report. if your formal disciplinary file every gets serious enough, let’s pray it DOESNT, youre looking straight in the face at me sending an email directly to Slyde (yeah, i have his direct email) recommending formal disciplinary action. at that point you better just pack your bags, because you probably wont be allowed near the internet ever again. so…yeah.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 1, 2010 8:13 AM EST up reply actions  

What's your BABIP on those 1500 popups?

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I am puzzilated

What seems to be wrong with all this?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Wrong with all of what, New Madville?

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I know you'll take that as a compliment JU1

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Donkey Shame Herr Beek

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess, at this hour of the night

my brain is far more functional than my ability to explain.

It seems we are blaming management for hiring OC to fix the problem, asserting that OC can’t fix the problem. But he isn’t the problem, after all. The problem is something else, not him.

It’s not even Janish, so hiring OC to replace Janish to fix that problem, which wasn’t the problem because no matter who we have, he will bat second, which is the problem.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions  

So then ... why are we ...

thinking this is a bad move? Is it about the $3 million?

Well, yeah, almost nobody on this planet should get 3 million dollars for one year just to be a ballplayer.

If the Reds win the pennant this year and OC hits .241, will we be able to say that made the difference, assuming we do not KNOW if Janish hitting .218 could have helped the team achieve the same result.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

yabbit ....

that’s speculation. You can’t follow this thing far enough along to evaluate the money that is being paid. If the team does better, it’s worth it … in additional revenue.

Now if it means having to discard a player later on, that is still another horse you have to ride for the entire race. Say you have to dump Aaron Harnann, well, you get somebody else just as aweseom … and … off you go.

As for marginal upgrade, remove the adjective … and you have “upgrade.”

I am all for that if it builds a better batting order. OC will do fine on defense.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions  

A few things

1. If the team does better this year than last year, you can’t automatically assume Cabrera is the cause and that it’s a good deal. Are you sure you aren’t Lance McAlister?

2. If a player has to be discarded to pay Cabrera’s salary, then it automatically isn’t a good deal unless that player is Willy Taveras.

3. “OC will do fine on defense” isn’t reassuring when you look at the numbers from last year and the fact that he’s aging and declining.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I can assert

That neither of us is wrong on this.

I can also assume that if Willy Taveras plays better than he did last year, that will also be an upgrade.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

A warm cup of piss

is an upgrade over the Taveras of last season.

I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 31, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, let's hope you're right

I’ve got all summer to be pessimistic. No need to start now.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

good lord

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

poor paulie...

kid probably won’t ever catch a break. time to jump on the cabrera bandwagon? might as well.

Sonny my pitched my wild

by GrooveLeg on Jan 31, 2010 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

there, there

why don’t you just sit down here on the couch and we can talk about it. Grab a couple of brews on your way past the fridge, OK?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Bold Prediction

-Janish still makes the the 25-man roster

-Janish still works on his bat for the day/s OC breaks down

-Janish is kept, while Rosales is traded

-Janish is on this page at least 50 times before we move to another thread, which I think says we at least like him

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I play video games.

Tanks can be blown up.

But seriously, He’s getting old. And Murphy’s law says that he’s due for some kinda incident. And what about a back up for B-Phil? Do you think Sutton or Rosales are going to be on the 25 man?

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

no, excalib ...

I am getting old. OC is 35. He is not yet old.
But I like your thinking.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

OC is not old compared to the general population

He is geriatric for a baseball player.

Especially now with no greenies and no ’roids…I think we may find that players no longer play into their late thirties and early forties. At least, not very well.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 7:27 AM EST up reply actions  

umm, who said there's no greenies?

Even if hard amphetamines are tracable, I’m pretty sure that there’s something available better than 5 hour energy shots.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

you think people want Rosales?

HILARIOUS!

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

beat me to it

I’d love to see that trade

by ol Pete on Jan 31, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I like it

I think it’s a good fit. Still plays solid defense, provides a little offense, and came at a resonable price.

Before the curse of stastics fell upon mankind we lived a happy, innocent life, full of merriment and go and informed by fairly good judgement.

-Hilaire Belloc

by poojols on Jan 31, 2010 2:41 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah

seems a’ight, all things considered.

I get the feeling that the brain trust feels like we can make the playoffs this year. Rolen and Cabrera are two guys you’d like to have during a stretch run. Hopefully that optimism is based in reality.

RR: Proud home of the most mods in SBNation.

by chesirecat on Jan 31, 2010 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

i really like seeing you post here Cheisrcat

You are always one of my favorite posters. Mostly because you seem like an interesting person who holds similar view points as myself.

by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2010 3:28 AM EST up reply actions  

no.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

To echo Mads

No, the Reds ARE waiting for 2011. Simply put, trading either Arroyo or Harang in the off-season without replacing them is a white flag and they tried to do both. Do the math.

by timb116 on Feb 1, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I think

this may be more about getting buns in the seats than actual belief they can make a run this year.

If they really are trying to make a run…well, that’s my biggest beef with the Reds brain trust. They seem to be trying to win now AND win later. They can’t do that, unless they spend a lot more money than they’re willing to spend.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 7:43 AM EST up reply actions  

damn

you guys are all such f ‘in pessimists… ill tell you what. the reds biggest problem is that they cannot produce runs. orlando cabrera represents a SS that can hit .285 knock out 10 hrs, 35 doubles, and drive in 70+ runs. i realize last year his obp was low, but if you check the stats it was an outlier. you also have to realize that during his time in oakland, their offense was so terrible that he probably had the mindset of going up there “hacking” which would also explain his career low walk rate of 5%, when i take into account the fact that he will be moving back to the NL, i expect that his numbers rebound offensively. also, the oakland a’s like to play money ball which may also explain his 13 sbs. i think we can expect 15-20 sbs this year from OC who was only caught stealing 4 times last year. i realize that he is getting older, but i expect him to be only slightlyyyy below average at SS this year. he is, after all, a 2 time gold glover.

if we cant score runs, we cant win games. i dont mind him in the 2 hole. look at his career numbers while hitting in the 2 hole if you dont buy it… he can hit the ball on the ground when needed, in the air when needed (10 sac flies last year), and to the right side of the field. if janish was in the 2 hole thats an automatic out, and you KNOW, dusty would be hitting him 2.

im excited about this year, especially if we can sign gomes. we finally have a big league lineup, and if we stay healthy i think we can contend for the wildcard. go reds. good job walt, i love what you’ve done this offseason, and i RARELY if ever think that.

by reds2010 on Jan 31, 2010 5:59 AM EST reply actions  

i just still dont understand

why rolen isn’t in the #2 hole? I mean wtf? there’s no one better on the team for that. If anything OC, would be better at #6 or #7 backing up the big bats.

by cokane on Jan 31, 2010 7:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Compared to OC

                   Rolen is much slower, strikes out more, doesn’t hit as well with a man on 1st and doesn’t hit effectively to the right side (a miserable .231 last year).

                   Scot’s started over 1700 games in the majors and has been in the #2 hole starting the game a grand total of 5 of them. I know every manager in the majors is an idiot according to the WAR worshipping crowd, but there seems to be a unanimity of informed baseball opinion that Rolen is a middle of the lineup guy.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, back when he had power, he was a middle of the lineup guy

Now that he’ll only hit 10-15 HRs but OBP over .350, he’s a great #2 hitter. All the talk of situational hitting is fine, but at the end of the day what you need the most are for guys to get on base as much as possible

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 10:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I Don't Agree

           That OBP is the end all of a #2 hitter. I’d rather have a guy who can set up big innings by hitting to the right side with a man on first and getting us men on 1st and 3rd. And can steal an occasional base or score from 1st on a double. Even if Rolen does wind up having a higher OBP of say 30 points, Cabrera’s skill set is a better fit at #2.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying it's the only thing, but it is definitely the most important thing.

The situations you are describing might take place 20% of Cabrera’s plate appearances. But what about the 80% when the leadoff hitter makes an out/hits something other than a single/steals second before the ball is put in play?

The common denominator in all of this is that the #2 hitter shouldn’t be making outs, and Rolen’s career OBP is 50 points higher than Cabrera’s. Over a full season, that represents 25-30 more times on base, therefore 25-30 more runners for Votto to drive in. To me, that’s much more important than being able to get the runner from 1st-3rd in the few cases where that matters.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how walks fit into rolens OBP. Batting in the middle of the order and (at one time at least) he was an RBI guy..

I would guess that he has a significantly higher amount of BBs than OC. #2 guys don’t get walks like #5 guys.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

They do if they are good #2 guys
  1. guys need to be taking pitches so the 3-5 guys can see him, and get on base no matter what.

FTR, Rolen’s career BB% is 11%, Cabrera 6.5%

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Cabrera's

               lifetime OBP batting in the #2 hole is .336. He moves runners and himself into scoring position better than Rolen. And he’s more likely to score on a hit then Scotty.

               A successful hit and run quite often leads to a big inning. Big innings win games. You seem to think that a #2 hitter has the exact same job as a leadoff man. I strongly disagree.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the role of both guys is to get on base as much as possible so the 3-4 hitters have someone to drive in.

Again, you are pointing to relatively rare occurrences for your evidence. Cabrera is more likely to score from second on a bloop single than Rolen, but that situation is going to occur relatively infrequently, compared to the vast difference in their ability to get on base.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

This argument could go on forever.

I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 31, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

guys getting on base, and people not hitting into outs

are the best ways toward a big inning. a hit and run is a good way to manufacture a run. a single, a walk, and a 3 run HR are the ways to produce big innings. everything you’ve described about cabrera seems to be oriented with small ball, like moving runners over or stealing bases.

if you want to like cabrera for his small ball type game there’s nothing wrong with that, because that stuff is helpful also, but if we’re talking big innings we’re talking OBP. you aren’t going to score a lot of runs without baserunners.

by sharks on Jan 31, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not a fan of the hit and run

i would like statistical evidence that overall the hit and run produces more runs than it terminates.

by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly why I classify it as a small ball technique

I’m not really a fan of it either, but I like it in certain situations

by sharks on Feb 2, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

probably will be stated down thread

Rolen is a nice fit. He doesn’t have the power that one would expect out of a 3 or 4 hitter, but he is good at getting on base. Speed and K’s are over emphasized. You want to avoid outs at the top of the lineup and Rolen can do that.

Personally my lineup would be
CF-Stubbs
3B-Rolen
1B-Votto
RF-Bruce (if he arrives)
2B-Phillips
LF-Dickerson/Gomes/Balentin
SS-Cabreara
Pitcher
C-Hannigan

by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Ewok

That avatar dog makes me want to go around kicking people in the shins.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

funny you should say "kick in the shins"

"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod

by jch24 on Feb 1, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

How's this for veteran leadership?
"I suck. I don’t even know how to describe it. … I suck. For real." Scouts at Dodger Stadium this week said that the A’s shortstop appears tired, and he agreed that might be the case, or, he said, "I’m getting old, maybe."

6/19/09 (HT to FanGraphs)

All that said, for a one-year deal I don’t mind this. We need depth if nothing else, and there’s probably not a significant net difference between Cabrera and Janish.

Cabrera’s UZR last year was awful, but unlike Tejada it was preceded by two very strong years. So while his age is a concern I think it’s a worthwhile risk (unless he was right about himself). He’s also probably our last chance to acquire a former Expo, so he’s got that going for him as well.

by ken on Jan 31, 2010 7:32 AM EST reply actions  

I wish I could be happy about this signing

I’m indifferent right now. I just don’t think Dusty will use him correctly. No SS on this team should be batting 2nd. Also, the player who is playing best should get the majority of the playing time even if only one of those players is considered a veteran leader.

Cabrera hit a lot better in the 2nd half last year (.643 OPS v. .776 OPS). Hopefully, his defense hasn’t declined to the extent that his 2009 UZR indicates.

Since Janish, Rosales and Sutton aren’t really that great, and not guaranteed to improve or not to worsen, it’s not a bad idea to sign a veteran like Cabrera if the team is close to contending. Also, $3 million isn’t bad for a starting SS. Some think that old players might be the big new market ineffciency.

Although it’s a decent signing, Dusty’s managing will negate any possible benefit of it. It’s a wash.

by Snake the Jake on Jan 31, 2010 8:17 AM EST reply actions  

I agree with all of this.

I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 31, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

strike two

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 31, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

chapman

Sonny my pitched my wild

by GrooveLeg on Jan 31, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

cumb'd

I am very curious about this. I figure we’ll know tomorrow.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

me too.

if it’s taveras, i’m going to immediately fall in love with this deal

Sonny my pitched my wild

by GrooveLeg on Jan 31, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I might look into season tickets

I suppose I'm cast as the darkness, because I comprehended their light not at all; at least not in the way they wanted me to.

by Pops Daniels on Jan 31, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Just remember that tomorrow is also the famous Roman soldier Gaius Mucius' birthday.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 10:09 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think

Mucius was all that famous, Mad.

I did read once about a general named Flippius Officus.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Mucius was notable for training the great Roman general Bigus Dickus.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Now, that guy

… yeah, the subject of love and lore.

Score one for the Butkus family.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

so does that mean were not gonna get Hanley Ramirez this year?

"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay

by joshuar9476 on Jan 31, 2010 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

probably

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

darn

"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay

by joshuar9476 on Jan 31, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I really like this deal and here are my reasons

1. This is an upgrade only Janish. His glove is awesome, but there is a good chance he will never be better than a .220 hitter

2. Provides depth. Who was Janish’s backup? Sutton, Rosales, Cairo, Burke…….none of those guys are SSs. I like have 2 legit SS on the team.

3. I think The OC will beat his projections with a move to the NL.

Does anyone remember the article that was posted awhile back that evaluated Runs scored vs. runs prevented? I couldn’t find the link. It basically stated that team dynamics determined which is more valuable. On a good offensive team, a run prevented is more valuable, while on a defensively good team a run scored is better. Given this SABR evidence, I would think all of you guys would be more excited about this signing.

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

"On a good offensive team, a run prevented is more valuable, while on a defensively good team a run scored is better"

That is true, but

That kind of assumes the differences will even out. In other words, that Cabrera will be worth 10 more runs offensively but 10 less defensively. What if he’s worth 10 more on offense but 30 less on defense. Doesn’t matter how much offense you need, that’s not a good trade off.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

you imply on any stat

That all other aspects of the game are either equal or at their highest level.
A well-played game at shortstop means as much or less than a poorly called game by the catcher, which doesn’t connect to the infield play at all.

Hitting a round ball with a round bat is an exact science only in hindsight. How Cabrera plays shortstop is dependent on how he fits with Rolen, BP and to some extent, on who’s hitting, the count on the hitter and other situations.

The plus or minus value of any trade for a starting infield player is so mind-boggling as to render it useless, even in concept.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure what you are arguing here

are you saying it’s impossible to know who’s going to be better, so just don’t even think about it?

So therefore if the Reds traded for Hanley Ramirez we should be indifferent because stats don’t tell us anything?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, is Hanley better?

I am not arguing much at all, just suggesting that the plus-minus value of any player can’t be dismissed so readily as your previous assumption. I go back to a lot of what I wrote overnight that the problem isn’t who we put at shortstop at all, alleging that no matter who plays shortstop, that guy will bat second in the order.

When you stuff round pegs into square holes, what’s the result?
OC or PJ or HR or anybody at short … we all agree that the problem has been our team’s inability to score runs, coupled with an inability to play good defense.

Wait and see is about all we can do, so yeah … maybe not indifferent to who plays there, but assume that we aren’t getting a one-eyed pool shark who says “trust me on this one boys.”

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Han Ram

or canned ham, not on the menu.

I need to probably stop writing these epic comments.
I just think back to that 2009 disaster
Rosales
Tatum
Corky Miller
Janish
Taveras

… hell there were games when I was hoping Owings would hit just so we could get a ball to the outfield. We can’t do that again. OC may not be the answer but anemia is a terrible thing to impose on a batting order.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

"hell there were games when I was hoping Owings would hit just so we could get a ball to the outfield"

great line, and its easy to forget how horrible this team was last year at the end of June and the entire month of July.

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

except he can't play defense

plus, he’s a vampire

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Here is my math

About 48 percent of the world is pissed off when the Reds don’t sign every single free agent out there, ranging from Fred Flintstone to Barney Schultz, including Cabrera, Nix, Gomes, Matt Holliday, Billie Holiday, Happy Holiday and of course — Valentine Day.

Of that 48 percent, the rest are confused.

The other 54 percent wants us to build from the system, except when the system produces guys who can’t pitch, can’t hit or aren’t very good in trade, even after they pass an MRI, MBA or CPA.

That leaves 19 percent who criticize nearly everything the team does based on statistics that applied in 2005, 2004 and 1974 when the kid was born.

If he’s a lefthander, all bets are off.

The underlined statement in the previous documentation said Janish can’t hit. The Reds needed a shortstop who could hit. Otherwise, they would have a shortstop who could not hit. So ……. Jocketty, in stating right up front (at the winter meetings for the history-challenged) that the team was going to address its left field and shortstop problems, has essentially done part of that. This comes as no surprise to the 34 percent who remember it.

Cabrera can hit better than Janish can. So, to the 25.7 percent of the puzzled, or half who said the Reds needed a better hitter at shortstop, well … ya got one.

Next?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:12 AM EST reply actions  

even the guys

at MLB Trade Rumors aren’t sure this is an upgrade on Janish.

I think Janish might hit well enough to stick, but we’ll never find out now.

And I’m a fan of defense. I think stats can’t really account for it. If a ball that would have ended the game gets past your fielder, and the game ends up going to extras and wiping out your bullpen for the rest of the week, that’s not accounted for in the stats.

With our young and promising pitchers, I’d like to have good defense behind them, especially up the middle.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this

but one thing I was thinking is that the FO clearly doesn’t see Janish as a long term solution, so I’m not too worried about not getting to see what Janish could’ve done. I think regardless, we’re going to see Cozart/Valaika/Frazier/Somebody as the SS next season.

This is the definition of a one year stopgap, with a 2nd year option in case Cozart/Valaika/etc. falter in AAA. I agree that I’m not confident in Cabrera being an upgrade, but I can’t cry too much over Janish’s missed chance to start.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

It is also probable

that what a lot of fans are saying has sunk in.
We keep waiting waiting waiting … it’s been since 1995 that this team made a serious playoff run, not counting the 1999 attack.

Stopgap or no, Cabrera isn’t long-term for the team, and neither is his grandson if you project far enough out. But it gives the club a chance to develop a kid who clearly isn’t ready yet — or would be penciled in now if he was.

Who knows … there may be a 15-year-old Dominican out there who will be playing for the Redlegs in two years.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Janish

          got his shot last year starting 42 out of the last 46 games. He hit .180 something. If he had .250, they would have stuck with him this year.

             The team is significantly better with OC.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

bingo!

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

gawd, I hope not

If the Reds are making decisions like that based on sample sizes that small, we’re doomed.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

bubba ...

the sample size on Janish combined with the sample size on Cabrera suggests (yes, suggests) that the team is upgrading its offense at shortstop and could be risking a compromise on defense. The risks are probably worth it over one year, the team apparently believes.

My personal notion is that Janish is not a regular major league shortstop. I think everyone agrees he can’t hit and probably won’t. I’d have preferred to teach him that craft, alleging it can be taught.

Still going from .210 to .240 is … what … about 10 hits over the course of a season. Hardly worth the effort, unless they all are Game 7, 1960 World Series, bottom of the ninth ……

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

How big of a sample size

             do you need to establish that Paul Janish is a far below average hitter? He hit .245 in AA; .240 in AAA and has barely broke .200 in the bigs. Plus he has no HR power or speed. His whole career indicates that he’d be one of the least productive hitters in a starting lineup in baseball.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

he's a modern day Mark Belanger

without the bat.

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Please listen.

Nobody is saying that Paul Janish is a good hitter, or even a decent one. But at the same time, can you completely write off a player’s career after 250 ABs? In Brandon Phillips’ first season in the big leagues, he hit .208/.242/.311 in 370 ABs. Cleveland gave up on him and the rest is history. Now, I’m not saying that Janish is the next BP, but give the guy a shot, especially when he adds so much with his glove.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

that argument works for Rosales, too, right?

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

KFTC

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

except

the “adds so much with his glove” part.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

and the fact that

Rosales is a vampire

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

is that a bad thing?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm worried about this signing

that;’s alot of money without a marked improvement. That, and I like Janish.

by Red_Poodle on Jan 31, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Poodle where have you been your mother and have been worried sick

Dad.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

"but we’ll never find out now."

Don’t you think that is a little extreme? I am sure Janish will make the 25 man.

I don’t understand the emotion around PJ, he is just a 2nd year player who hits .220. Besides whoever is at SS this year is just a placeholder for Cozart anyway.

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

right

This is why I’m kinda ‘meh’ on this. Neither of these guys will matter much next year if Cozart can hit in AAA.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure he'll make the 25 man, too

But I really, really hate the way Dusty uses his bench players. Janish sometimes went two weeks between games. You can’t expect a young player to keep his edge playing so infrequently.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Janish was used oddly in 09 until he became the starter

But I doubt (hope?) that won’t be repeated this year. Last year, he was blocked by the fact that Dusty thought Jerry Hairston was a better shortstop. JHJ is gone now, so Janish should be the first infielder off the bench, right?

Also, separately, I’d rather see Sutton make the team as the last backup infielder, not Rosales. I have no quantifiable reason for that preference, I just do.

by the finest muffins on Jan 31, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

we'll see

Dusty works in mysterious ways.

It was hard to figure out why he did what he did.

He said at the beginning of the season that he thought a SS like Janish could play any position on the field, but was reluctant to use him out of position in practice. He did put Drew Sutton in the OF. I couldn’t figure out if it was because he thought Janish had a chance to stick at SS, and therefore didn’t want to turn him into a utility guy, or what.

In any case, I fear it’s unlikely that Janish will learn to hit big league pitching used as infrequently as Dusty is likely to use him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's unlikely Janish was ever gonna hit big league pitching anyway.

If you’re leaning towards winning now (which I think the Reds are) it’s a move you’ve gotta make.) Janish is a nice LIDR, but I don’t think he’s likely to ever be more than that.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 31, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think there are some fair comparisons to be made between Janish and Juan Castro

Back when he really did have manos de oro. If I think about it in that regard, I’m able to move past this better. I just really like homegrown guys.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont get the PJ love either

Janish put up a .211/.296/..305 last season as a 27 year old rookie. If he was 22 that would be a completely different story…but Janish aint ever gonna be more than a defensive replacement.

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

except it really isn't fun to find out

we’ve seen a bunch of terrible players trotted out with the hopes they’d have a good season. it’s extremely frustrating to watch.

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Manos de Oro'd

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but

it’s veterans who are past their sell-by date, like Cabrera, who have been most frustrating to watch.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I liked Aurilia and Hatteberg

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah im with you on that

but Janish’s glove really looks like it could be that special. like one of the best in the league. there arent many +15 shortstops out there, and i’d like to see that receive it’s due opportunity. he doesnt have to be a good hitter, or even an average hitter, but if he’s just not a terrible hitter, he could be a good player.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

that would be great

but say he was the best defensive infielder in the league, yet he hit .200. Where would the fan’s and media’s focus be? Whether it’s right or not all the talk would be centered around him being horrible offensively.

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i hear ya

but i’d like to believe a team that would take the risk on a guy like Janish would also be able to clearly and logically defend their decision to the media. these are all wishes of mine for a perfect world.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Back in the late '80's Ronnie Oester was a fine defensive second basemen

but hated in the fanbase and booed at the park, ’cause he hit .230. They called him Ronnie O-fer. I was one of them (I was 18, what did I know about baseball? Plus, the game was mainly a radio game, so all i knew was that Marty told me he was 0-3).

Same thing would happen with Janish. The boos would start as soon as the Reds fell more than 5 games back

by timb116 on Jan 31, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

Yes, that’s it exactly.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

there's a possibility that Janish could be a 3 WAR player!

Did you guys have a party and eat the “fun brownies” and not invite me? Seriously all of his projects are all around .230 / .305

When comparing Janish to BP, let’s remember that BP was one of baseball’s top prospects before failing in Cleveland.

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

no fun brownies

let’s say Janish is a +15 defender. give him +8 for a position adjustment, +20 for a replacement adjustment, and -15 with the bat. that’s a +28 player, or 2.8 WAR. given a full year’s playing time, i dont think any of these assumptions are all that unreasonable. the batting runs are probably the most generous on my part, but even if he’s -23 with the bat that makes him a 2 WAR player. getting an average player as your starting SS is nothing to sneeze at.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 31, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus he's scrappy and hits clutch doubles

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, at least we didn’t sign Melvin Mora

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

So I leave town for one day to finish a move and then I come back to this ...

I skimmed all the comments but didn’t ‘read’ them all. So if this has already been brought up, I’m sorry:

I don’t like this for one reason: We’re assuming Rolen will stay healthy for a good bulk of the season — something he hasn’t done for several years now.

I hate to be the person to shit in the punch bowl but: if Rolen goes down or left-side infield defense just went to shit — Rosales and OCab … ugh.

If that’s what I’m seeing and I’m a righty, I’m pulling EVERYTHING. And if I’m a lefty I’m going opposite way ALL DAY. Not to mention, lets say it’s late in the game and the opponent needs to bunt, could you imagine Rosales and Hernandez trying to field the ball with OCab covering somewhere? Fuck. Not to mention guys that would want to just try to bunt to get on base.

This trade, defensively, is beneficial only if Rolen stays healthy. I just can’t see that happening.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

or you could play janish and/or Cabrera at 3rd

their bat is no worse than rosales, and their defense is much better

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't trust Dusty to do that.

I really don’t. I don’t think he has the imagination or the ability to such a thing. If Rosales is on the team — he WILL play third.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

A Dusty problem is a Reds problem

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

true

but we woulda had the same problem with or without cabrera

by 'tHan on Jan 31, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

To an extent. I trust Janish to make up for Rosie's defensive quirks more than OCab

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Did we get OC ... because

Rosales can’t play?

Or did we get OC because Janish can’t hit?

I get a mixed massage here.

Or did we get OC because Rolen will probably be hurt?

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, I just can't figure out what the team is thinking here

other than — we needed a SS?

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're right

Dusty is so strange. Sometimes, he seems so set on playing guys in their “natural” positions. He kept running Rosales out at 3B, even when Janish was the one who made the team out of spring training, and was clearly better. Did he just hate Janish? No, when they needed someone to step in at SS, it was Janish all the way. Because it was “his” position.

But then he does things like put Drew Sutton in the outfield, when the guy never played OF even in the minors.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. It drives me crazy some times. I know we give Dusty a lot of crap

for building old, generic lineups — CF leadsoff, SS bats second, etc. — but he does the same crap defensively. He looks down at his roster and sees 3B or SS next to a guys name and can’t slot them anywhere other than there.

And then, he does crap like the Sutton situation and you only get angrier because — WTF is that?

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Or you play Frazier or

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

END at 3B

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I like END, a lot, but his defense his a

suspect, also.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's as bad as advertised

But then again I said the same thing about EE so don’t listen to me

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope you're right, because I really, really like END and I want to him be a staple here.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I want him to hit like crazy in a SSS in Louisville and then get traded for Hanley Ramirez

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I could live with that too.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again, that's only if Dusty has those guys.

I don’t think Frazier makes the squad. I think Rosales does … I don’t like it, but I haven’t seen any reason to think differently.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

so maybe they don't make the roster out of spring training

But if Rolen goes on the DL (which is what we’re still talking about way down here, right?) they get to fill his roster spot. So Frazier/Francisco/whoever could get called up.

by the finest muffins on Jan 31, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but so could a relief pitcher or an additional outfielder.

The amount of time Dusty gave Rosie last season bothers me still to this day. And if he is still on the team I don’t think new blood would change that.

I would prefer to see Janish, Frazier or END at 3B before Rosales … but I just don’t see Dusty doing that if Rosales is on the team. Dusty tends to get fascinated with certain players (Pat-Pat for one) and I think Rosales might be one of those guys.

I’m not trying to discredit the Reds’ depth here, or even the signing of Cabrera — I just don’t trust Dusty’s decision making. Baker reminds me of the child you buy a $100 train set for — only to see the kid have more fun with the box.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

OC could play third?

I mean, he hasn’t yet, but that’s a possibility. Frazier is another possibility. So is END.

I’m angry about the defensive sacrifice, but I don’t think a backup thirdbaseman was really in the works. A week ago, the infield D was reliant on Rolen staying healthy.

I’m alright with this signing. I feel a lot better with OC in the OD lineup than Janish. And if Janish ends up hitting great, well, it’s not like this team hasn’t had $3m bench players in hte past.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

somehow

I can’t see see Dusty benching Cabrera. Even if Janish hits like A-Rod and Cabrera hits like Juan Castro, I think it will be Cabrera who starts.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

My final thoughts

Snare drum please ….
I am not pro-OC or anti-Janish.
But I see this signing as a risk that the team should be taking if it plans to get off the dime and out of the rut.

Most FA signings are like this.

I don’t dislike this deal, short-term.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

But what it comes down to, is do you like the team short term?

Most people, including myself, aren’t expecting much out of the Reds this season, with the hopes that a healthy Volquez and Bruce and the emergence of Chapman take this team far in 2011. If you’re a team playing for 2011, then you don’t throw money away in 2010 on an upgrade that likely won’t affect your team long-term.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Um ... I'm thinking

… the NL-C is winnable.
Sorry, but I believe that.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

these guys disagree

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

well show me a picture of the 1975 BRM and I will be impressed.

Otherwise, they haven’t won anything yet. (Can’t even beat Brooklyn.)

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

again,

not true

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the NL-C is winnable

Until they up the little (E) next to the teams who are eliminated, that is.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

91 wins last year

                Not exactly the ’27 Yankees.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

and the Reds won 78,

neither team markedly improved, except the Cards get Holliday for the whole season

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

So you say

               I say we get Rolen for a whole season replacing EE.

               We get Drew Stubbs for a whole season replacing Willy T.

               We get OC instead of no hitting out of Gonzo and Janish.

                We have the potential for a solid rotation.

                 We can’t possibly have the number of injuries we had last year.

                Like I said, I’m glad Walt hasn’t given up on this season like most of the posters here have.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

OK

3B will obviously be an improvement (although he’s not replacing EE really, since he barely played). This also assumes Rolen will stay healthy, which isn’t a safe assumption.

Nobody can be sure that we will actually get Stubbs for a whole year replacing Willy, or whether Stubbs will hit for a whole season.

OC should be an offensive upgrade over those two,(def. Gonzo), but again, how much of that will be negated by the defense?

We had the potential for a solid rotation last year too. Could be better, could be worse, but you can’t count on either one.

We’d have to make up 13(!) games from last year. No way I see enough improvement from the things you listed to make that happen.

Now don’t get me wrong, I really really really really want the team to win this year and be competitive. I also don’t hate the OCab deal, but i’m also not convinced he’s going to be that much better than Janish. What I’m tired of, like BubbaFan, is the ‘win now but also build for the future’ attitude. It simply can’t be done, but the FO keeps doing it, year in and year out.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I like this post besides your Stubbs skepticism. He’s going to be the NL MVP, sir.

by jsl413 on Jan 31, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

from your lips to God's ears

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 31, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

The Cardinals

           finished 11.5 behind the Cubs in 2008; guess they didn’t realize it was hopeless in 2009.

           I see no reason why a team can’t pick up a few veteran parts to fill present holes while building long term. I’d rather see the Reds do that then blow up the team on the off-chance that a bunch of minor leaguers will blossom into superstars down the road (maybe you should be a Pirate fan).

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Carpenter!!!!!!

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

win now or later isn't accomplished by playing Paul, Nyc

He and Orlando are both place-holders until a better solution is found.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of the post. The Reds Pythagorean was actually for 76 wins last year, so, according to their RS/RA, they were actually lucky. Here’s how this team wins (and frankly, it’s just too mnay if’s)

If Joey plays 155 games
If Bruce hits .270 and 30 and slugs close to .500
If the LF platoon/squadron puts up a .250/.350/.425 cumulative line
If Rolen plays more than 130 games
If Volquez comes back and in August in a playoff race (otherwise, why bring him back)
If Bailey really is a better pitcher and not a Pirate induced mirage
If the bullpen maintains a similar production.

That would be 13 games (especially Bailey and Bruce). But, there are just too many variables for me.

I don’t hate or like this deal, but to imagine this delays or hampers anything of value for the team, like some posters seem to believe, is over-blown.

by timb116 on Jan 31, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I have not yet begin to give !!!

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Injuries:

For years the Reds organization and fanbase has been saying “god this team is snake bitten this year, next year will have to be better”. It won’t. What separates mediocre from good, is the depth to cover those injuries. Harang was a horse in 2006 and 2007, did anybody believe that he wouldn’t throw 200 innings in 2008 AND 2009?

Brandon Phillips could slip on a banana peal. Johny Cueto could have to much to drink and fall on his pitching shoulder and tear his labrum, Homer Bailey could tear his rotar cuff going into home plate.

by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I like how you think

Bailey is going to get on base, AND score.

NOW I’ve heard it all from you optimistic fools.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

boo hiss!

Let’s sic Tonya Harding on them.

by the finest muffins on Jan 31, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Red_Poodle

is our resident Votto groupie. (Sorry, but we’ve divided up the Reds young studs. Votto is Poodle’s, Homer is Andromache’s, and Bruce is mine. ;-)

She hasn’t been around much lately, but during the season, she was known for recommending our pitchers plunk our opponents’ good hitters.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Bruce is yours?

AndyFan is going to be very disappointed to hear that.

"aaron harnann is so aweseom" - justin

by BK on Jan 31, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

AndyFan is not a Red

He’s in Japan.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yowza

when the cat’s away the mice will play!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 1, 2010 8:15 AM EST up reply actions  

sqeak!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 1, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

It will take every little and big thing to go just right for this team to finish above 3rd place in 2010

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess that explains it

         The people who don’t like the OC signing wrote off this season a long time ago.

          I’ve always thought that an offensive upgrade in a few positions and we can contend for at least a wild card. 78 wins with a team that couldn’t hit and was riddled with injuries doesn’t make me throw up my hands and say “No way can we get better next year”. A left side of the infield of OC and Rolen looks a lot better than Gonzo-PJ and EE to me as does Drew Stubbs in CF rather than Willy T. The pitching was average in the NL last year and has a good chance of being better if Harang bounces back and if Cueto and Bailey continue to improve.

                Luckily, Walt hasn’t surrendered 2010 before ST like most of the posters here.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

IF IF If If if if if ifaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Harang bounces back, Arroyo keeps it together, OC is decent, Rolen doesn’t get tired, Stubbs continues to develop, Quueto doesn’t run off the rails etc.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

by Madville on Jan 31, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

The odds

            are that all of those things are reasonably likely.

             Are there any actual Reds fans on this board? Seems like the majority here just bash the team mercilessly no matter what it does.

by no1marauder on Jan 31, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

It's been a long winter,

And a long decade for that matter. And when you have to wallow in your own filth in CF, or taste how bad a 22-1 score is; you start to lash out on people. Sometimes when it’s not even called for.

Also, I read a study that said it’s actually more rewarding to follow a losing team in the long run.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

We expect mediocrity

You should too. Thin line between realism and pessimism.

RR: Proud home of the most mods in SBNation.

by chesirecat on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Quueto?

really?

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Feb 1, 2010 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Aaron is beyond bouncing back....

although I still love him and hope he could find 2007

by timb116 on Jan 31, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather see them take the risk with Janish

But then, that may be because I don’t see them making a run this year.

If Janish crashes and burns, well, they haven’t lost much. If he figures it out, he’s worth something – in trade value, at least, if they don’t want to keep him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

faith, bubba

Faith.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 31, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

well, maybe OC just gets dinged up and msses the first couple weeks of the season

enough for Janish to impress.

I’m determined to see OC as our utility guy instead of Cairo. That makes me much happier.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Jan 31, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep being determined

I don’t see how he’s anything but the starter (and probably for 150+ games at least) at shortstop on this team.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

And further-more

If he’s not busy being the Red’s full-time starting shortstop, He’s either traded or retired.

And as recockulous as a 3 million dollar Pinch Hitter would be, I would enjoy to see him off the bench for Janish 20 times or so this year.

Start SEEing motorcycles

by Excalib8 on Jan 31, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Surprising news

Actor Rip Torn Arrested for Allegedly Breaking Into Connecticut Bank

with a loaded weapon no less.

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 31, 2010 12:48 PM EST reply actions  

you are determined to not talk about baseball

You should follow me on twitter @DavefrmLville....the Onion does!

by Dave from Louisville on Jan 31, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He sexy

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

FTH?

Isn’t he, like, a million years old?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

He was drunk...

coincidentally.

Let me write out a formal proof for you.

by Gray on Jan 31, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I honestly like this...

From a purely fan’s perspective (I’m not very knowledgable on all the crazy baseball stats) this shows me the team learned from the Willy T signing and is trying to field a competitive team in 2010. Hopefully this will get more butts in seats and allow them to sign a big name FA or two next offseason to supplement the solid young core being built.
I like the offseason’s moves—with both log term and immediate solutions.
Just my opinion. (which means nothing)

"If he raced his pregnant wife he'd finish third." --Tommy Lasorda(on catcher Mide Scioscia)

by chazzilla on Jan 31, 2010 1:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Dang it, long term*

"If he raced his pregnant wife he'd finish third." --Tommy Lasorda(on catcher Mide Scioscia)

by chazzilla on Jan 31, 2010 1:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

But this guy is like Willy T as an infielder with a lot more numbers and experience to back it up

and a slightly better average. He doesn’t walk. He’s known for “speed” although anyone could tell you that part of his game is declining quickly and he probably won’t steal more than 20 bases ever again, maybe even 10. He’ll be a typical Dusty 1/2 guy and we’ll all be bitching all year that he should be more like a 7-8 guy

by jsl413 on Jan 31, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

He isn't Taveras

that’s ridiculous. Taveras had failed with two team and at the best he could be was still terrible. Orlando has years of being a reasonably to very good SS. Unfortunately, those years were 4 years ago. Still, there’s no reason to think he won’t at least be what he was last year.

by timb116 on Jan 31, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Additionally - we were pretty much the only market on a guy who was still in his arb years.

And we gave him a two year contract. At least, there’s the comfort in knowing that what we give Cabrera isn’t that far out of line with what some other team would give him.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Jan 31, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's a bad contract, I just don't see it as necessary.

If our organization has any depth, Cozart/Frazier/whoever could step up when needed a couple times a week.

by jsl413 on Jan 31, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Right now, Zack would make Janish look like Babe Ruth

and Frazier can’t play SS, even in the minors. Frazier hits and it would be nice if he sticks at 2B when the Reds deal Brandon this summer

by timb116 on Feb 1, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes there is.

He’s deteriorated every year. There’s every reason to think that, especially at 35, those numbers will continue to fall off as his bat and legs slow. He won’t be as bad as Taveras, but he’s .5 WAR better than Janish according to JinAZ (probably, assuming Janish wouldn’t break out or something ridiculous). It’s nice to know that we won’t see Rosales at SS this year, but don’t we have some young people that could provide upside and benefit from experience and be not that much worse than Cabrera (and cheaper)? Yes.

by jsl413 on Jan 31, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Plus, he played on a real offensive team that has people that get on base in the Twins.

Cabrera should be a 7 hitter, but we have like, 3 7-hitters on our team. Dusty will put him at the top of the order and it’ll be better than Willy T, but not much, in terms of getting on base for Joey.

by jsl413 on Jan 31, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't hate it

but I think they bought a little bit of “depth” at a pretty dear price. Could have traded for someone like Kevin Frandsen if a stopgap was really necessary, with Burke and Sutton on hand and Cozart/Valaika/Frazier coming soon.

Cabrera will at least hit righties better than Janish – and I would think in a way that makes up for the defensive disparit. I’d like to see Janish play late innings and against lefthanders, but I doubt that’s how Dusty will handle him.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 31, 2010 2:36 PM EST reply actions  

I'm dying to know what the roster move will be

I don’t see any obvious candidates.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 6:43 PM EST reply actions  

If it's Rosales my argument is dead. And I'll be happy.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 31, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm thinking it could be Rosales

I know people are hoping it’s WillyT, but I kinda doubt they’ll release him. Might as well keep him around as a reserve OFer, since they’re paying him anyway.

One of the pitchers is a dark horse possibility. Perhaps they’ve given up on Bray?

And I gotta say, I don’t like the Pro Bowl being played before the Super Bowl.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 31, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing good came from 9/11

But the elimination of the week between the conference championships and the Super Bowl was pretty great.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 31, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

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